Isn't it time to take a look at dual wield?

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

I just switched from DW to 2h, 2 days ago at last. And seeing the difference is shocking.

The damage output is no less than 30% better, you have effective damage shields, gap closers, buffs, self heals and at the same time far superior damage.

DW has no gap closer, no self heal, no buffs, no stun, basically no utility and still it does far far less dps than 2h?

Isn't it time to redesign dw? Shouldn't it has far better damage output than 2h when it has no utility, cc or support? It just look weird that the one weapon line that is only damage and nothing else, does far less damage than utility lines?

glak

Dual Wield is only good for boosting spell power by 250 thus boosting a Templar healer's HPS in a pinch.

There, spell power nerf incoming to melee weapons. Then DW won't be good for anything.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Advantages of DW:
- Higher Weapon Damage, so class skills / fighters guild skills / ultimates hit harder.
- High AoE Damage with great range
- One additional piece of gear that can provide a set bonus
- Ranged attack

So in generall I think that both weapons can be usefull, depending on the situation.

golfer.dub17_ESO

Dual Wield has a 15% damage passive against various forms of CC. Except in PvP most CC is broken out of instantly, making this passive worthless.

Dual Wield Axes are terrible. Not only is the DoT unimpressive (especially compared to the damage daggers dish out with critical hits), but it rarely ever procs.

The only reason I like Dual Wield for PvP is that rapid strikes is harder for an enemy to escape than wrecking blow. Granted it's a pretty major reason.

The only reason I like it for PvE is because the Momentum buff from 2hand applies to both weapons, giving it an overall damage increase over using a 2hand alone (Except, you know, that requires a 2hand secondary in the first place...) That and the fact that Dual Wield has better AoE than a giant two-hander, which makes no sense.

Lhorion

DW is good if you use a class skill for your main damage. NBs can be strong with DW. They have Ambush and Surprise Attack so they just need 2h on their second bar for Rally.

CaptainObvious

I think the point being raised is that the loss of sparks and replacement with blade cloak basically didn't scratch the itch. Mainly added itching powder.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Advantages of DW:
- Higher Weapon Damage, so class skills / fighters guild skills / ultimates hit harder.
- High AoE Damage with great range
- One additional piece of gear that can provide a set bonus
- Ranged attack

So in generall I think that both weapons can be usefull, depending on the situation.

Yes it all looks good on paper, and I went for it for a year. But add in a dps meter and you see that it doesn't work. The 2h does about 30% better dps (at least for my nightblade) while it also have self heal, cc breaker, stuns, damage shields, immovable, gap closer ..... all things DW doesn't have.

So with all that good stuff 2h also outdamage DW and that is why I ask: "shouldn't DW be reconsidered?"

PKMN12

Its tends to be this way in A LOT of RPGs. in most editions of D&D, takes way too much resources to make it worth it compared to using a 2-handed weapon. Skyrim had a similar problem where it took a lot of resources to make it worth it. g

Jar_Ek

Yes.

Glurin

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

DW has no gap closer, no self heal, no buffs, no stun, basically no utility and still it does far far less dps than 2h?

That's not entirely accurate.

DW does have a self heal. It's a morph of the first skill I believe. It just royally sucks because it's based on a bleed DOT.

You get a damage shield that can increase speed. The shield only protects against AoE and the speed increase only lasts five seconds.

Blinding Fury has a chance to set the enemy off balance each hit. A 7% chance and it's not a full stun.

DW has a snare. It lasts a whopping six seconds and snares don't do squat in melee range.

See, DW isn't as bad as you thought.

Zsymon

I don't think anyone interested in being strong (not maximized, just viable) ever uses dual wield, it is an absolutely horrible skill line. To make matters worse, in 1.6 they actually nerfed Rapid Strikes damage by some 11%, as if it was doing too much damage.

That blade cloak is a horrible skill, no one ever uses it, it has no purpose whatsoever. In small fights people don't use aoe against you, and in zergs it doesn't matter one bit if you take 15% less damage from the aoe spam. It's as if they just threw this skill in there for flair, rather than thinking about whether it would be actually useful.

To be anywhere near useful it would have to provide 80% aoe protection at the very least, otherwise no one is ever going to use it. You can always make exceptions or reduced effect for some specific boss aoe attacks and siege weapons.

Alcast

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

I just switched from DW to 2h, 2 days ago at last. And seeing the difference is shocking.

The damage output is no less than 30% better, you have effective damage shields, gap closers, buffs, self heals and at the same time far superior damage.

DW has no gap closer, no self heal, no buffs, no stun, basically no utility and still it does far far less dps than 2h?

Isn't it time to redesign dw? Shouldn't it has far better damage output than 2h when it has no utility, cc or support? It just look weird that the one weapon line that is only damage and nothing else, does far less damage than utility lines?

You want that DW is same as 2H which is kinda not going to happen. There is a reason why there are 2 different skilllines and not only 1. And DW is everything else as crap

DW has highest AoE output in the game with Steeltornado. (Steeltornado can crit for 15k on low health enemies)
DW gives highest spell and weapon power ingame.
DW has very good passives.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

Alcast wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

I just switched from DW to 2h, 2 days ago at last. And seeing the difference is shocking.

The damage output is no less than 30% better, you have effective damage shields, gap closers, buffs, self heals and at the same time far superior damage.

DW has no gap closer, no self heal, no buffs, no stun, basically no utility and still it does far far less dps than 2h?

Isn't it time to redesign dw? Shouldn't it has far better damage output than 2h when it has no utility, cc or support? It just look weird that the one weapon line that is only damage and nothing else, does far less damage than utility lines?

You want that DW is same as 2H which is kinda not going to happen. There is a reason why there are 2 different skilllines and not only 1. And DW is everything else as crap

DW has highest AoE output in the game with Steeltornado. (Steeltornado can crit for 15k on low health enemies)
DW gives highest spell and weapon power ingame.
DW has very good passives.

I don't want it to be the same. I want it to do better dps than 2h because it doesn't have utility. Right now 2h has everything and also do a LOT more dps than DW and that is wrong.

Cody

Zsymon wrote: »

I don't think anyone interested in being strong (not maximized, just viable) ever uses dual wield, it is an absolutely horrible skill line. To make matters worse, in 1.6 they actually nerfed Rapid Strikes damage by some 11%, as if it was doing too much damage.

That blade cloak is a horrible skill, no one ever uses it, it has no purpose whatsoever. In small fights people don't use aoe against you, and in zergs it doesn't matter one bit if you take 15% less damage from the aoe spam. It's as if they just threw this skill in there for flair, rather than thinking about whether it would be actually useful.

To be anywhere near useful it would have to provide 80% aoe protection at the very least, otherwise no one is ever going to use it. You can always make exceptions or reduced effect for some specific boss aoe attacks and siege weapons.

blade cloak should be a stamina based damage shield...

idk why ZOS refuses to give stamina users damage shields.... it infuriates me

Cody

Alcast wrote: »

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

I just switched from DW to 2h, 2 days ago at last. And seeing the difference is shocking.

The damage output is no less than 30% better, you have effective damage shields, gap closers, buffs, self heals and at the same time far superior damage.

DW has no gap closer, no self heal, no buffs, no stun, basically no utility and still it does far far less dps than 2h?

Isn't it time to redesign dw? Shouldn't it has far better damage output than 2h when it has no utility, cc or support? It just look weird that the one weapon line that is only damage and nothing else, does far less damage than utility lines?

You want that DW is same as 2H which is kinda not going to happen. There is a reason why there are 2 different skilllines and not only 1. And DW is everything else as crap

DW has highest AoE output in the game with Steeltornado. (Steeltornado can crit for 15k on low health enemies)
DW gives highest spell and weapon power ingame.
DW has very good passives.

the only heal in the skill line is negated by blocking and damage shields, as well as a good chunk of endgame enemies.

there are no gap closers, meaning going pure DW is suicide against players that can kite you endlessly(which is a lot of people now a days) unless you use a class based charge

It does have a good AOE, that much is true

rapid strikes is good if you can get behind your enemy, otherwise you are standing there not doing any kind of CC, getting hit right back by your enemy and stopped by a knockback of some kind;, AND RS has no burst at all, making it sub-optimal for fighting damage shield spammers/stackers

hidden blade is meh. I personally dont use it.

the passives can be better. I personally think the ruffian passive should also affect snared enemies(in case it already does not) give the skillline some utility and let the snares it has huge access to give the skill line a unique advantage. Noone is saying it should copy 2H. what people ARE saying, is that DW could be much better than it is right now.

Glurin

All thread is making me think of frogurt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_pqnsKWlpc

Zsymon

I definitely agree, Blade Cloak should be a damage shield, one that scales with stamina and not health, if Sorcs get to keep theirs. People would actually use DW again. I think the visual flair of dual wield is much cooler than those giant lumbering swords, I want to use dual wield, but it is just too bad, even for PvE DW doesn't work because you die too fast, you have no healing, no CC, no utility, monsters just wail on you and you die.

Arcanasx

DW is one of the most well thought out skill lines. Especially how they have hidden blade and deadly cloak to throw those daggers that synergize with their melee skills, while having a weapon in each hand. It's very practical...oh...wait a minute...

exiledtyrant

Looking at duel wiled you would think that the 300 extra weapon power was a big deal until you look at the base damage and scaling between DW and 2 handed. 2handed base damage and scaling far out paces duel wield skills. Wrecking blow without empower is leaps and bounds stronger than any other duel wield skill single target or otherwise except flurry, but flurry is out damaged by wrecking because it takes less time to use. Even worse flurry is not actually a 1.3 seconds channel but more like a 3 second channel. Wrecking on the other hand appears to get faster the more you spam it. Brawler is less damage than whirlwind but offers far more survivability. Even the slaughter passive is weeded out when 2handed is given almost the exact same effect with executioner.

There's a lot of things that actually need cleaning up with duel wield. I made a thread about it a few weeks back actually:

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/158876/dual-wield-discussion-and-feedback#latest

Arcanasx

exiledtyrant wrote: »

Looking at duel wiled you would think that the 300 extra weapon power was a big deal until you look at the base damage and scaling between DW and 2 handed. 2handed base damage and scaling far out paces duel wield skills. Wrecking blow without empower is leaps and bounds stronger than any other duel wield skill single target or otherwise except flurry, but flurry is out damaged by wrecking because it takes less time to use. Even worse flurry is not actually a 1.3 seconds channel but more like a 3 second channel. Wrecking on the other hand appears to get faster the more you spam it. Brawler is less damage than whirlwind but offers far more survivability. Even the slaughter passive is weeded out when 2handed is given almost the exact same effect with executioner.

There's a lot of things that actually need cleaning up with duel wield. I made a thread about it a few weeks back actually:

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/158876/dual-wield-discussion-and-feedback#latest

But...but...we can throw daggers! In fact, we can throw them with a weapon in each hand! Who needs to get up close as a Dual wielder when you can throw daggers from afar! Gap closers are for the weak!

Aett_Thorn

Replace Blade Cloak with something like "Parry" or "Riposte" is my idea.

Parry:

When toggled, this ability gives dual wield users an x% chance to dodge attacks.


Morph 1: Riposte

When toggled, this ability gives dual wield users an X% chance to dodge attacks. When a melee attack is dodged, damage attacker with Y physical damage.


Morph 2: Strengthening Parry

When toggled, this ability gives dual wield users an X% chance to dodge attacks. When an attach is dodged, heal the user (or give damage shield) for Y.

Arcanasx

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

Replace Blade Cloak with something like "Parry" or "Riposte" is my idea.

Parry:

When toggled, this ability gives dual wield users an x% chance to dodge attacks.


Morph 1: Riposte

When toggled, this ability gives dual wield users an X% chance to dodge attacks. When a melee attack is dodged, damage attacker with Y physical damage.


Morph 2: Strengthening Parry

When toggled, this ability gives dual wield users an X% chance to dodge attacks. When an attach is dodged, heal the user (or give damage shield) for Y.

Thats actually a great idea, you get an awesome from me

And it makes a lot of sense too, considering that real life dual wielding focuses much on parrying/riposting as well

Jar_Ek

/agree with @Aett_Thorn Something like that would be good, but would it stack with dodge buff? If not then it's kinda pointless as it is already covered by Elude at least to some extent.

Jar_Ek

Here is my take on what is required...

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/168267/can-dual-wield-be-made-to-work#latest

The_Death_Princess

On the other end, in PvP, it is far easier for me to kill 2h switchers now, any class. I used 2h from day 1 on my templar, and I think my DW NB is far more of a killing machine.

Think you might want to rethink this, cause the facts dont match the numbers.

cazlonb16_ESO

The only real issue is Rally.

It either needs to be nerfed to the ground or moved out of the 2h tree into something neutral like Fighters Guild, just like ( the overall much worse but equally mandatory for magicka based builds) Entropy.

Dual wield as such could use a minor tweak here and there, what doesn't, but that's it.

Zsymon

No dude, dual wield needs some major rework, both the skills and the passives, nerfing Rally isn't going to get people to start using dual wield. Even without Rally, 2H is far superior to DW in every single way: damage, utility, mobility and defense. It's not enough that a single Dual Wield skill is somewhat decent in a single build for a single class. Not everyone that wants to use two weapons is a Nightblade.

- (Twin Slashes) Rending Slashes needs to have its direct damage and cost increased, to the level of Surprise Attack or Flame Whip, so it can be used as a quick nuke, and Blood Craze needs to heal much more, to the level of Rally, healing the same as the passive and active maximum Rally heal combined over 9 seconds, since it is much more difficult to apply a melee bleed, and it can be cleansed to stop the heal, Rally can't be stopped at all.

- Blake Cloak needs to be changed into either a straight up damage shield, or a Riposte skill like suggested above, great idea by the way. Have one morph give a 20% chance to block projectiles and apply a 10 second medium damage shield in return, and have the other morph give a 20% chance to block melee attacks and riposte with a strong damaging attack. Then you can choose the one morph if you have more problems with ranged attackers, and the other if you have more problems with melee attackers. If you'd use Elude along with this skill, you'll have a high chance of stopping and dodging attacks. Keep in mind the NB dodge skill is most likely bugged and gives a far too high dodge chance, if you fix that then 20% chance to dodge is not a lot, with the new skill it does not add up to 40% avoidance chance by the way, math doesn't work that way.

- Hidden Blade, no one uses either morphs of this, replace this with a completely different skill.

- Both the Ruffian and Dual Wield Expert passive skills need to be changed entirely into something else. Who cares that 50% of your light attacks do 6% more damage, this must be one of the worst passives in the game, and Ruffian needs to either be replaced or include Snared as well as Off-balance, since those are the only CC debuffs Dual Wield can apply, yet they are exactly the ones not included.

trimsic_ESO

DW is good for large scale combat owing to steel tornado and quick cloak. This being said, DW is a very poor skill line for small scale combat.
- Twin Slashes and its morphs is unusable in Cyrodiil because it causes a bleed dot that is immediately purged by any damage shield.
- Flurry and its morphs looks good on the paper, but in practice don't expect to deal enough damage with this skill to kill a magicka class who can stack damage shields. I feel like a mosquito when I use this skill, i.e. I feel useless, maybe just a bit annoying and I'm even not sure of that
- Flying blade is not as good as it was in the past. It has been seriously nerf'd since 1.6 to a point I rarely use it. I think this nerf makes sense, because in theory damage dealt at range should always be less harmful than melee damage. Unfortunately, DW melee damage is just a joke, and I don't see any good reason why I would slot these single target DW skills.
- The Ruffian passive looks good on the paper; but no DW skill can stun, immobilize, disorient, or silence, hence forcing people to use a class skill, i.e. use a magicka skill, to get the 15% damage bonus. In addition to that, disorient immediately breaks when the target takes damage, silence is almost removed from the game, and immobilize and stun rarely last for more than 4s. Therefore, don't expect to have the 15% damage bonus for more than 4s. This passive is actually useless in practice.
- The Twin Blade and Blunt passive is only good for swords and daggers. The bleed damage of axes is immediately purged by damage shield, so it's useless in Cyrodiil.

So yes, the DW skill line needs to be reviewed in the PVP perspective.

golfer.dub17_ESO

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

The only real issue is Rally.

It either needs to be nerfed to the ground or moved out of the 2h tree into something neutral like Fighters Guild, just like ( the overall much worse but equally mandatory for magicka based builds) Entropy.

Dual wield as such could use a minor tweak here and there, what doesn't, but that's it.

I kind of agree, but mainly because of the weapon damage and not the self heal.

Momentum is pretty much required if you're a melee DPS, 20% damage is just too much to give up on, meaning you have to use a 2hand even if you're not actually using that two hand. Having a neutral, all-class Major Brutality skill would be amazing (rework weapon power potions into something else).

Don't agree with the last statement. Tons broken about Dual Wield.

Zsymon

Major Brutality adds about 6% actual damage, not that amazing. But of course still useful if you're stacking weapon damage.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Zsymon wrote: »

- Both the Ruffian and Dual Wield Expert passive skills need to be changed entirely into something else. Who cares that 50% of your light attacks do 6% more damage, this must be one of the worst passives in the game, and Ruffian needs to either be replaced or include Snared as well as Off-balance, since those are the only CC debuffs Dual Wield can apply, yet they are exactly the ones not included.

Dual Wield Expert increases the WEAPON DAMAGE you get from your off-hand weapon by 6%. It means if a Dagger gives you 1000 Weapon dmg, that same Dagger gives you 20% of its base value, or an extra 200 weapon dmg, if you wield it in your off-hand. Dual Wield Expert increases the off-hand value by an additional 6%. So with the same weapon instead of getting an extra 200 weapon dmg you now get 260 weapon dmg, or 26% of your off-hand base value.