Simple solutions to an annoying problem- Dungeon party keeps breaking apart and the run is forfeit

Avenias

Ever since i have started farming vet dungeons for specific set parts from undaunted dailies, i have had many problems running them. 1st let me explain my role and some of my stats standing now, i have a vet 3 orc templar tank and my stats are currently 24k physical and spell resist with 25k hp which i find is more then sufficient to tank any vet dungeon scaled at vet 3. However, from my experience so far, its mostly the issue with dps that hinders progression as there are many parts of the vet dungeon where a dps wall exists, which must be broken to proceed forward. For example, the vet boss in banished cells where there is a constant spawn of adds that needs to be taken out quickly or the party will be overwhelmed, the worm boss in darkshade caverns that has a shield that needs to be taken down fast or he will continue pounding the ground till the party wipes or the assassin boss in fungal grotto where the shade needs to be killed quickly before the party member dies from the sword, just to name a few. When faced with these kind of challenges that requires certain amount of dps to beat it, many times party members have become disillusioned after failing to meet the requirement a number of times and as a result, left the party leaving behind a failed run which cannot proceed because one of the previous objectives have been completed and finding a replacement will only waste that persons time.

Solution- Replace the multiple objective requirement of the vet pledge quest with only one objective, that is to kill the final boss and the optional gold pledge option. Restrict the movement of the dungeon so that the previous bosses needs to be killed before the party can move on. That way when a party member drops from the party, there is still an incentive for the party leader to port out back into the main city, and find a replacement which can join and carry on. Its usually only 1 person that needs to be replaced. I hope this can be implemented so that we dont waste our time progressing through a dungeon only to fail it when party members start dropping and a replacement cannot be found.

Valymer

Yeah, it does make it hard to find a replacement since that person won't be able to complete the pledge quest.

All they would have to do is put mechanics in place to prevent you from dying then ghost traveling to the final boss, using repair kits, then killing it in just a few seconds.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

There are two sides to this issue, which are both valid and entirely contradictory and no MMO developer has or can ever square the circle.

The OP is asking for a 'back-loaded' reward, meaning the entire dungeon has to be cleared in order to reap benefits. This of course is a means to avoid the "I've killed the boss I need, cya" type of self-centred player.

Trouble is of course that it means groups who aren't up to being able to clear it bash their heads against the wall of boss 1 (or boss 2, or whatever) and fall apart having obtained nothing: this is hardly an incentive for anyone to PUG.

The alternative of course means the 'trouble' of the first one is mitigated by giving partial rewards on each boss, with usually a somewhat larger payout on the final boss.

I needn't comment on the 'trouble' with this, we've seen it regularly in ESO and all other MMOs where back-loading isn't used in general, or specific instances.


Fundamentally it's down to players, what they go into instance for and their level of selfishness and self-centredness, no game developer can implement mechanics that can deal with human nature like that.

God knows MMOs for years have grappled with this, umpteen variations of 'group kick' have been tried in attempts to mitigate the worse excesses of "FU I'm alright", progression-blockers like doors that open only when a boss dies have tried to eliminate the 'run to the last boss, die, raise then WIN", etc. etc.

None have solved the problem because as I have shown (and God knows I'm not claiming any new or revolutionary insight here) it's a dilemma that can't be solved due to 'people problems'.

Valymer

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

There are two sides to this issue, which are both valid and entirely contradictory and no MMO developer has or can ever square the circle.

The OP is asking for a 'back-loaded' reward, meaning the entire dungeon has to be cleared in order to reap benefits. This of course is a means to avoid the "I've killed the boss I need, cya" type of self-centred player.

Trouble is of course that it means groups who aren't up to being able to clear it bash their heads against the wall of boss 1 (or boss 2, or whatever) and fall apart having obtained nothing: this is hardly an incentive for anyone to PUG.

The alternative of course means the 'trouble' of the first one is mitigated by giving partial rewards on each boss, with usually a somewhat larger payout on the final boss.

I needn't comment on the 'trouble' with this, we've seen it regularly in ESO and all other MMOs where back-loading isn't used in general, or specific instances.


Fundamentally it's down to players, what they go into instance for and their level of selfishness and self-centredness, no game developer can implement mechanics that can deal with human nature like that.

God knows MMOs for years have grappled with this, umpteen variations of 'group kick' have been tried in attempts to mitigate the worse excesses of "FU I'm alright", progression-blockers like doors that open only when a boss dies have tried to eliminate the 'run to the last boss, die, raise then WIN", etc. etc.

None have solved the problem because as I have shown (and God knows I'm not claiming any new or revolutionary insight here) it's a dilemma that can't be solved due to 'people problems'.

This is true, but we are really talking about two different things here.

The first is the rewards for doing the dungeon itself (nothing to do with the Undaunted pledge quests). There is the skill point for doing the quest the first time through, which involves killing most of the bosses usually. Then there are the rewards you get along the way--each sub-boss gives experience and does drop loot (crappy though it may be most times).

The second is the Undaunted pledge quest rewards (the gold/silver/bronze keys). To earn the gold key, for instance, you have to kill multiple bosses along the way to the final boss--there are no intermediate rewards, it's an all-or-nothing deal.

For this second set of rewards, it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to require the killing of the mini-bosses along the way as part of the completion. If the dungeons were set up in such a way as to prevent access to the final boss unless some bosses along the way were killed, it wouldn't matter anyway. And many of them are indeed designed like this in one way or another.

In some dungeons, the last boss is considered the hardest part and the place where group members are the most likely to give up. Allowing a substitute to complete his or her daily pledge by killing only the last boss would make it much easier to find someone to come and help you, and everyone wins in that situation.

eliisra

I would to prefer the quest being tied to the last boss only. Right now you have to restart the entire pledge if you loose one member.

This is something that happens fairly regularly to, not necessarily due to drama and conflict. Rather they disconnect and cant come back online or they just have to go because of sudden real life things.

If you're close to the last boss when it happens it's fine, someone might join for some free loot. But mid-dungeon you always have to reset the entire thing, people joining expect to get their pledge completed. Than the guys already in the group has no time to restart, so they leave to. Back to spamming LFM in zone and guild chat, making the group all over again. All because one player had technical problems or needed to go. This can be extremely frustrating.

bertenburnyb16_ESO

problem with your solution OP, is it will lead to griefing
since the party system Zos came up with, ONLY the leader can kick and invite people, whats to say the leader wont kick the other party members just before last boss and invite friends/guildies (as I've seen happen in other mmos) so the multiple objectives design of zos prevents that, but screws over the party if someone leaves
an additive to your solution would be that a member can only be kicked by voting of atleast 2 people of the party, maybe even 3

anitajoneb17_ESO

Look for a nice simple friendly guild, or even better several of them, where people don't behave like that.

As already mentioned, ZOS cannot possibly control all kinds of selfish uneducated human behaviour.

Valymer

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Look for a nice simple friendly guild, or even better several of them, where people don't behave like that.

As already mentioned, ZOS cannot possibly control all kinds of selfish uneducated human behaviour.

Neither can governments, but that doesn't stop them from trying to design legal systems that take that behavior into account while still being fair for everyone else.

MyNegation

we just need a proper grouping tool.

anitajoneb17_ESO

What would the grouping tool possibly do about this specific issue ?

Naivefanboi

I usually have good experiences with zone chat and pugs, id say 75% success rate. But definetly had those days where just cant get a group together who can clear it.

A more effrciebt way to fill dropped slots would be great, matchmaking comes to mind like some mmos have for dungeons

WolfingHour

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Look for a nice simple friendly guild, or even better several of them, where people don't behave like that.

As already mentioned, ZOS cannot possibly control all kinds of selfish uneducated human behaviour.

I agree with this. The best way to tackle the issue is to find a group of people that are willing to adjust to the boss mechanic and try, try, try again. Be it a guild or that tank (random example) you ran into in a PuG that was more active on group chat, suggesting ways to overcome the situation. After a while you will have a somewhat sturdy and diverse list of contacts and no longer need to use the LFG tool or /z chat. The additional upside of guilds is that, from my experience, that is were you are more likely to find players willing to do a partial run.

Also, you can already skip multiple bosses within the same dungeon. It doesn't take that long to reach the last boss anyway. It's a good compromise from your alternative which can lead to much greater abuse - kicking randoms that can actually do the content to invite lazy guildies/friends.

BuggeX

There are two types of the dungeons, Normal and Vet. Normal should be able to be done by any Setup.
Veteran is the hard Version, ofc there are Special movement requirements and DPS race.

If your Group can't beat a boss, your Group is not ready yet for this kind of challenge.
The gold plegde is even more challenging and give you a Special revard for the efford.

Dungeon or Group cotnent doesn't just require a Special mechanic or equip.
It also require certain skill of groupmanagement and Stamina.

If you miss one of this requirements, you will mostly fail Vet and have to try over again.

Merlin13KAGL

@eliisra, @Valymer

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but Gold key is always tied to Hard Mode which is always tied to the last boss only.

In theory, you could skip every other boss in the place, so long as you do the last one the 'right' way.

Silver is the only one that requires all/most bosses. Gold only concerns itself with the last one.

Of course, you normally have to clear mini's along the way, simple because you cannot stealth past or have to open passage, but the Gold mechanic does not require it otherwise.

EDIT: Correction - been doing them so long that it's autopilot now. Silver does require certain bosses, Gold requires Silver, as well. Some bosses are exempt (BC, for instance, the Keeper that "hums off key.")

Valymer

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@eliisra, @Valymer

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but Gold key is always tied to Hard Mode which is always tied to the last boss only.

In theory, you could skip every other boss in the place, so long as you do the last one the 'right' way.

Silver is the only one that requires all/most bosses. Gold only concerns itself with the last one.

Of course, you normally have to clear mini's along the way, simple because you cannot stealth past or have to open passage, but the Gold mechanic does not require it otherwise.

Hmm, I don't think so. Silver and Gold are the same quest, only there is an extra optional requirement that you have to do if you want to get the gold key.

I think that Gold key = Silver key requirements + extra requirement. Even if you could skip straight to the boss and kill it, I don't think you would get the gold key without killing the other mini-bosses, because the quest wouldn't complete.

daemonios

I've had good and bad experiences with PUGs.

There were times when the party was really very weak. I've done hundreds of vet dungeons on two characters. I do them daily for the gold key, but don't mind spending a little more time explaining the bosses. I don't care about perfect runs. If the party is willing to listen to someone and then actually does what the party agreed, any dungeon is feasible even with low DPS.

The problem is when some party members won't listen, won't participate in chat, won't do anything to help a group effort. In those cases, I have dropped from the party myself several times.

In short, I don't think any changes are required. If you do a dungeon with a PUG, you run the risk of some or all members being clueless. Either they shape up, or they don't, and in the latter case, there's always more people to run the dungeon with. If you want to be sure the party know what they're doing, join an active guild or do them with buddies.

idk

That's what guildies are for. I often enter a dungeon to help a guild group complete their pledge.

With that, most of those dps walls you mention were nerfed heavily in 1.6 making the vet dungeons significant easier.

AlnilamE

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

That's what guildies are for. I often enter a dungeon to help a guild group complete their pledge.

This. I've also done that. If someone is almost done with a dungeon and they healer or DPS got disconnected, I have no problems going to help them even if it means I'm not getting a key.

PUGs always have the risk that someone won't be up to par. Sometimes you will be able to compensate, sometimes you won't. You just have to be prepared and not get frustrated when things go wrong. Of course, there are those days when your group is awesome and you clear the dungeon in no time.

I think the pledges are good the way they are. If you are running the pledges regularly, you will eventually meet enough good players that you can add to your contacts and ask them directly if they want to join your group that day.

Merlin13KAGL

Valymer wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@eliisra, @Valymer

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but Gold key is always tied to Hard Mode which is always tied to the last boss only.

In theory, you could skip every other boss in the place, so long as you do the last one the 'right' way.

Silver is the only one that requires all/most bosses. Gold only concerns itself with the last one.

Of course, you normally have to clear mini's along the way, simple because you cannot stealth past or have to open passage, but the Gold mechanic does not require it otherwise.

Hmm, I don't think so. Silver and Gold are the same quest, only there is an extra optional requirement that you have to do if you want to get the gold key.

I think that Gold key = Silver key requirements + extra requirement. Even if you could skip straight to the boss and kill it, I don't think you would get the gold key without killing the other mini-bosses, because the quest wouldn't complete.

@Valymer, correct and corrected. (I've obviously been doing them far too long.)

I was recalling the fact that Silver (and thus Gold) doesn't always require clearing all bosses (which I always found odd).

Most of the Silver bosses are basically unavoidable anyway, as they are physically in the way or are required to unlock/access an area.

OP, best recommendation I can give in circumstance like this is to find someone that does still need the pledge. They'll get kill credit for the end boss(es) and you make the agreement ahead of time with your group members that they will re-run the dungeon with the new 4th up to the point where he/she didn't get credit yet.

This counts on the honor of your group, of course, but has worked well in the past (even more so when you keep your word.)

baratron

Valymer wrote: »

The first is the rewards for doing the dungeon itself (nothing to do with the Undaunted pledge quests). There is the skill point for doing the quest the first time through, which involves killing most of the bosses usually. Then there are the rewards you get along the way--each sub-boss gives experience and does drop loot (crappy though it may be most times).

The second is the Undaunted pledge quest rewards (the gold/silver/bronze keys). To earn the gold key, for instance, you have to kill multiple bosses along the way to the final boss--there are no intermediate rewards, it's an all-or-nothing deal.

For this second set of rewards, it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to require the killing of the mini-bosses along the way as part of the completion. If the dungeons were set up in such a way as to prevent access to the final boss unless some bosses along the way were killed, it wouldn't matter anyway. And many of them are indeed designed like this in one way or another.

In some dungeons, the last boss is considered the hardest part and the place where group members are the most likely to give up. Allowing a substitute to complete his or her daily pledge by killing only the last boss would make it much easier to find someone to come and help you, and everyone wins in that situation.

I was going to say - you do realise that it isn't necessary to complete the bosses in order? So if you need to pick up a new group member, they can simply do the rest of the Pledge with you. As long as you promise to run the parts of the Pledge they missed afterwards, there is no need to give up and start again.

In fact, if you've completed the Gold Key version of the last boss, this status is "saved" all the time that the Pledge quest is active. I'm pretty sure that even if you were to finish the dungeon for a second time and only get the Silver Key, this wouldn't overwrite your Gold Key from before.

felinith66

Valymer wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@eliisra, @Valymer

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but Gold key is always tied to Hard Mode which is always tied to the last boss only.

In theory, you could skip every other boss in the place, so long as you do the last one the 'right' way.

Silver is the only one that requires all/most bosses. Gold only concerns itself with the last one.

Of course, you normally have to clear mini's along the way, simple because you cannot stealth past or have to open passage, but the Gold mechanic does not require it otherwise.

Hmm, I don't think so. Silver and Gold are the same quest, only there is an extra optional requirement that you have to do if you want to get the gold key.

I think that Gold key = Silver key requirements + extra requirement. Even if you could skip straight to the boss and kill it, I don't think you would get the gold key without killing the other mini-bosses, because the quest wouldn't complete.

You'll get a bronze key instead. Happened to me when I switched toons in the middle of a pledge run because we didn't have enough dps and my guildies really wanted the gold key. I did get the helm though So in short, the gold key is only for completing all the requirements of the pledge. Meanwhile, the helm is usually tied to the last boss. You can skip all other bosses that you could. And you don't even have to do the last boss in hard mode to get it.

Valymer

felinith66 wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@eliisra, @Valymer

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but Gold key is always tied to Hard Mode which is always tied to the last boss only.

In theory, you could skip every other boss in the place, so long as you do the last one the 'right' way.

Silver is the only one that requires all/most bosses. Gold only concerns itself with the last one.

Of course, you normally have to clear mini's along the way, simple because you cannot stealth past or have to open passage, but the Gold mechanic does not require it otherwise.

Hmm, I don't think so. Silver and Gold are the same quest, only there is an extra optional requirement that you have to do if you want to get the gold key.

I think that Gold key = Silver key requirements + extra requirement. Even if you could skip straight to the boss and kill it, I don't think you would get the gold key without killing the other mini-bosses, because the quest wouldn't complete.

You'll get a bronze key instead. Happened to me when I switched toons in the middle of a pledge dungeon run because we didn't have enough dps and my guildies really wanted the gold key. I did get the helm though So in short, the gold key is only for completing all the requirements of the pledge. Meanwhile, the helm is usually tied to the last boss. You can skip all other bosses that you could. And you don't even have to do the last boss in hard mode to get it.

Yeah, the helm has nothing to do with the pledges.