"Pay to win" is a red herring.

Genomic

Was just reading the thread about whether having motifs in the Crown Store is 'pay to win'. It struck me how the term itself is a red herring and allows your argument to be shut down because it is such a subjective and poorly defined term.

It also leads to the thinking that anything in the Crown Store that isn't 'P2W' must be ok. That's dangerous thinking because there are plenty of ways to erode gameplay and reduce the overall quality and spirit of the game through non-P2W cash shop items.

Much of the enjoyment and sense of achievement gained in an MMO is through the challenge/reward system. You work at something ingame for a time to get a reward. Craft a lot and you can eventually create an epic crafted item, kill lots of mobs and you increase the chance of a purple item (search lots of objects and you find a purple motif). The joy is in the reward because you put effort into it, or because it was challenging.

Cash shop naturally circumvents this. No challenge in instantly buying something. So even if an item isn't technically P2W, it can erode the fundamental value of the game.

Now the Crown Store is here to stay, and because of its inherent and natural erosion of the challenge/reward system, it will affect the quality of the game. There's no getting around it. But - ZOS can minimise this by not going overboard with Crown shop entries and by being carefully selective with what they add to the store. If they carefully manage this, the quality of the game can be mostly retained while having items in there that only minimally affect the challenge/reward system.

Motifs as an example are borderline here. Many people have found challenge/reward in finding all or high level motifs and feel this has been degraded now they are instantly purchasable. It may be a fairly minor addition to most people, but of course each additional Crown Store item that circumvents the challenge/reward like this will have an additive affect and eventually you devalue the game too much.

TLDR? There is a line where the Crown Store affects the game too much, but it's not necessarily the addition of 'P2W' items.

Elijah_Crow

Motif's allow you craft something in a certain style. They can be acquired in game through gold or just by finding them. Having them faster is a matter of convenience and they allow you to then craft something which is only a cosmetic change from what you can craft anyway.

I can't think of an item that's better to sell in the crown store to fund the game development.

Psychoke

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

Motif's allow you craft something in a certain style. They can be acquired in game through gold or just by finding them. Having them faster is a matter of convenience and they allow you to then craft something which is only a cosmetic change from what you can craft anyway.

I can't think of an item that's better to sell in the crown store to fund the game development.

did you even read what he wrote

LameoveR

Found daedric motif in first backpack in Cadwell's Gold Deshaan.
I win without paying!

Sylveria_Relden

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

Motif's allow you craft something in a certain style. They can be acquired in game through gold or just by finding them. Having them faster is a matter of convenience and they allow you to then craft something which is only a cosmetic change from what you can craft anyway.

I can't think of an item that's better to sell in the crown store to fund the game development.

Agreed. If it was an item you could *only* acquire in the Crown Store and isn't available in game- it might be a different discussion- however, I'm still inclined to disagree that "aesthetic" items are in some form "pay to win".

I believe that the only real intent of those arguing the "pay to win" scenario over motifs is that they can't continue to market to people excessively in gold anymore- so they want something exclusive in game that they can do so with.

Genomic

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

Motif's allow you craft something in a certain style. They can be acquired in game through gold or just by finding them. Having them faster is a matter of convenience and they allow you to then craft something which is only a cosmetic change from what you can craft anyway.

I can't think of an item that's better to sell in the crown store to fund the game development.

'Convenience' is as much of a red herring as 'pay to win'. Any Crown Store addition can be considered a convenience. Insta-buy all skill points or champion points? Very convenient.

Cosmetic, OTOH, is potentially the way to go, but as I described in my OP, it can still be done poorly. I said motifs were borderline for this reason. They are cosmetic, but still many people spent many months looking for high level motif or collecting them all. As I said, the challenge/reward system. There is no challenge in instantly buying these from the Crown Store. But again, I know this is a natural consequence of a cash shop. And while being cognizant of that, ZOS can minimise the impact of the Crown Store by not adding too many things that circumvent this challenge/reward system.

Emma_Overload

In theory, I'm against P2W, but in practice, I'm willing to make exceptions:

1) Some items (like motifs) aren't gained through actions that could honestly be called "playing", but through repetitive, robot-like actions like checking through the same room of containers... over and over and over for hours and hours and hours. That's how I got all my purple motifs, but I'm not mad that they put them in the Crown Store, because I know I would have bought them in a heartbeat if I could!

2) Some items (like Trial gear) have stupidly been made BoP and are locked behind group-only content that solo players are not allowed to access no matter how hard they work at it. Putting these items in the Crown Store would at least give all players ONE path to acquire these items. The current system is not fair or sensible at all because it requires the individual player to have the "acceptance" of other players in order to earn an item. I'd rather pay cash than kiss some guild snob's butt!

xMovingTarget

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

In theory, I'm against P2W, but in practice, I'm willing to make exceptions:

1) Some items (like motifs) aren't gained through actions that could honestly be called "playing", but through repetitive, robot-like actions like checking through the same room of containers... over and over and over for hours and hours and hours. That's how I got all my purple motifs, but I'm not mad that they put them in the Crown Store, because I know I would have bought them in a heartbeat if I could!

2) Some items (like Trial gear) have stupidly been made BoP and are locked behind group-only content that solo players are not allowed to access no matter how hard they work at it. Putting these items in the Crown Store would at least give all players ONE path to acquire these items. The current system is not fair or sensible at all because it requires the individual player to have the "acceptance" of other players in order to earn an item. I'd rather pay cash than kiss some guild snob's butt!

Point 2 is p2w at its best. If you dont do raid content, you dont get raid gear. Very easy. I dont pvp. I also dont expect to have all pvp skills. If I want or need em, I go and play pvp.
That's the point of a video game. If you dont like to work towards something, you might be better of watching a movie or a let's play. There you can skip around like you desire.

I dont respect wallet warriors in games. As soon as eso goes down this path, it's dead.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments]

MCMancub

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

In theory, I'm against P2W, but in practice, I'm willing to make exceptions:

1) Some items (like motifs) aren't gained through actions that could honestly be called "playing", but through repetitive, robot-like actions like checking through the same room of containers... over and over and over for hours and hours and hours. That's how I got all my purple motifs, but I'm not mad that they put them in the Crown Store, because I know I would have bought them in a heartbeat if I could!

Exactly this.

People think the motifs are the rewards they get for grinding for hours and hours. The actual reward is that you didn't spend money in the cash shop.

Elijah_Crow

Psychoke wrote: »

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

Motif's allow you craft something in a certain style. They can be acquired in game through gold or just by finding them. Having them faster is a matter of convenience and they allow you to then craft something which is only a cosmetic change from what you can craft anyway.

I can't think of an item that's better to sell in the crown store to fund the game development.

did you even read what he wrote

Yes I did. Perhaps I should have been more clear. I was making a point to the OP (which he understood) that the argument he was waging was a fight against items which provide a convenience.

This is the difference between selling xp potions or selling a potion which makes you instantly max level. Both can be accomplished by playing so are not technically pay2win.

The point is where you draw this line. For me I don't believe Motifs are close to where I would draw the line. I approach this from the point of view of how much time in game I would be willing to reduce for any acquisition in the Crown Store.

Since these can be easily purchased with gold, or found fairly quickly I'm fine with it.

Emma_Overload

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

In theory, I'm against P2W, but in practice, I'm willing to make exceptions:

1) Some items (like motifs) aren't gained through actions that could honestly be called "playing", but through repetitive, robot-like actions like checking through the same room of containers... over and over and over for hours and hours and hours. That's how I got all my purple motifs, but I'm not mad that they put them in the Crown Store, because I know I would have bought them in a heartbeat if I could!

2) Some items (like Trial gear) have stupidly been made BoP and are locked behind group-only content that solo players are not allowed to access no matter how hard they work at it. Putting these items in the Crown Store would at least give all players ONE path to acquire these items. The current system is not fair or sensible at all because it requires the individual player to have the "acceptance" of other players in order to earn an item. I'd rather pay cash than kiss some guild snob's butt!

Point 2 is p2w at its best. If you dont do raid content, you dont get raid gear. Very easy. I dont pvp. I also dont expect to have all pvp skills. If I want or need em, I go and play pvp.
That's the point of a video game. If you dont like to work towards something, you might be better of watching a movie or a let's play. There you can skip around like you desire.

I dont respect wallet warriors in games. As soon as eso goes down this path, it's dead.

Games should be challenging and fun, but the grouping aspect of ESO is poorly designed and simply not fun, in my opinion. Group content would be much more appealing if there was an automated, non-discriminatory process for bringing players together, but there isn't. Sadly, people who are already able to enjoy raid content (and raid loot) don't give a rat's ass about the exclusionary nature of the grouping process... it's all about "who you know" isn't it? To heck with that!

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version and edited response]

NewBlacksmurf

People....If things in the crown store bother you to the point that you are screaming P2W...go play another game.

If you have any problem with any other player obtaining an item that can be obtained in game but they choose to pay real money for it...you have an issue personally.
What is driving you to believe or feel that another player does not "qualify" for the items they are purchasing.
There is literally nothing for sale that impacts another players experience in any way other than something visual.

Talrenos

There is no P2W here in ESO. No matter what they put in the crown store, there is nothing this game has to offer that you can actually 'WIN' at. The only endgame is PvP which could be doable IF there was no lag in Cryodil, but there is and the whole PvP thing is largely unused and ignored due to poor coding. so what are you going to win?

MCMancub

Talrenos wrote: »

There is no P2W here in ESO. No matter what they put in the crown store, there is nothing this game has to offer that you can actually 'WIN' at. The only endgame is PvP which could be doable IF there was no lag in Cryodil, but there is and the whole PvP thing is largely unused and ignored due to poor coding. so what are you going to win?

Good point. ZOS gives the ability to buy whatever gear you want and there's no place to use it haha

MrGhosty

I have no issue with Motifs being for sale, and I fully expect them to sell packs of upgrade mats at some point. To the other poster's point about buying trial gear I wouldn't be against this with one provision. They would need to implement "seasons" for lack of a better word that maybe last a month to three months. After a respective season that gear is made available to the "unwashed masses" as newer designed gear replaces it as the exclusive, sign of completion rewards. This way everyone gets access to the gear no matter what their playstyle is but those who seek this gear as a sign of status or reward are still being rewarded. Everybody wins.

Elsonso

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

In theory, I'm against P2W, but in practice, I'm willing to make exceptions:

1) Some items (like motifs) aren't gained through actions that could honestly be called "playing", but through repetitive, robot-like actions like checking through the same room of containers... over and over and over for hours and hours and hours. That's how I got all my purple motifs, but I'm not mad that they put them in the Crown Store, because I know I would have bought them in a heartbeat if I could!!

I think that the common motifs are fine for the store, but the rare ones should be in the game only.

I don't think it is normal to be grinding motifs "through repetitive, robot-like actions like checking through the same room of containers... over and over and over for hours and hours and hours." To me this is aberrant behavior. Irregular behavior that deviates from what is considered normal. Sure, you can choose to do it that way, but it is not what was intended.

My issue with your statement is that the cash shop becomes a fix for bad game design. Just the fact that you can grind the containers in the same room over and over for hours and hours points to a flaw in the game. The cash shop rather conveniently fixes this without actually changing the game.

Going beyond what you said, my issue with the rare motifs, and why I think my run with ESO is coming to a close, is that the rare motifs in the store are better than the ones people get in the game. All the ones in the store can be used immediately, bypassing that annoying crafting skill Rank requirement that just gets in the way.

If they do not fix this on Monday in the next patch, then I think we can look forward to incremental changes in the store to introduce better items, or more convenient items, than what can be obtained outside of the store. Only self discipline prevents them from doing this, and that can be in short supply when they are desperate for money and people keep whispering in their ear how nice it is for them to do it.

Mettaricana

i find this not pay to win the only thing motifs are are gold sinks other than repairs we dont actually need gold can get off our butts and farm or work towards any gear we commonly buy so this p2w horse is just plain beaten.

MCMancub

Mettaricana wrote: »

i find this not pay to win the only thing motifs are are gold sinks other than repairs we dont actually need gold can get off our butts and farm or work towards any gear we commonly buy so this p2w horse is just plain beaten.

Punctuation.

Endurance

"Pay to win" is a closed topic.

Rust_in_Peace

If you think buying motifs with money is paying to win you're an [snip] and your opinion is worthless.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

Ley

Genomic wrote: »

Was just reading the thread about whether having motifs in the Crown Store is 'pay to win'. It struck me how the term itself is a red herring and allows your argument to be shut down because it is such a subjective and poorly defined term.

I read that same thread and while I disagree with the OP, I came to terms with one fact. Whatever they introduce to the crown shop will be defined as p2w by some players, because we all have different goals and priorities in game. While to me winning is associated with power and your ability to kill other players, for some people it's picking flowers, rping, unlocking dyes, collecting all pets, crafting the best coolest looking gear, ect. That being said, I think we should just assume that to some degree, anything offered in the crown shop will be p2w to some percentage of the community.

What we should really be asking is. Will this item, if offered in the crown shop, be overall good or bad for the game and a majority of its players? What is the extent of the effect it will have on the players and game?

I think Motifs for instance fall under the good for some players and have little to no effect on others, category.

Once you slap a p2w label on something, it becomes taboo. Nobody wants p2w or at least not their definition of p2w.

Faulgor

I agree with the OP.
Further, I absolutely hate to hear something is "just cosmetic". This is an RPG: A role playing game. Character customization, especially visually, is not just a fringe addition to the genre, it's at the core. There's a reason why visual modifications are among the most popular mods for TES games.
And it's also a huge reward incentive. Farming materials to craft bunny ears with no discernable benefit for your girlfriend? Been there. Running the same dungeon over and over again to get a boss helmet because it would fit your character just so well? Doing it still. Removing these scenarios from the game absolutely and directly diminishes the experience.

NewBlacksmurf

Faulgor wrote: »

I agree with the OP.
Further, I absolutely hate to hear something is "just cosmetic". This is an RPG: A role playing game. Character customization, especially visually, is not just a fringe addition to the genre, it's at the core. There's a reason why visual modifications are among the most popular mods for TES games.
And it's also a huge reward incentive. Farming materials to craft bunny ears with no discernable benefit for your girlfriend? Been there. Running the same dungeon over and over again to get a boss helmet because it would fit your character just so well? Doing it still. Removing these scenarios from the game absolutely and directly diminishes the experience.

But why do you have a problem with anyone else earning it?
Whether it's earned via crowns or not...what's the issue with the reason why you feel others should not "qualify" unless they earned it the way you have?

Glurin

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I agree with the OP.
Further, I absolutely hate to hear something is "just cosmetic". This is an RPG: A role playing game. Character customization, especially visually, is not just a fringe addition to the genre, it's at the core. There's a reason why visual modifications are among the most popular mods for TES games.
And it's also a huge reward incentive. Farming materials to craft bunny ears with no discernable benefit for your girlfriend? Been there. Running the same dungeon over and over again to get a boss helmet because it would fit your character just so well? Doing it still. Removing these scenarios from the game absolutely and directly diminishes the experience.

But why do you have a problem with anyone else earning it?
Whether it's earned via crowns or not...what's the issue with the reason why you feel others should not "qualify" unless they earned it the way you have?

Same reason you can't earn a gold medal in the Olympics by paying somebody fifty bucks for it. Because you did not earn it.

Wearing raid gear that is only obtainable by killing a certain boss in a certain dungeon says "Yeah, I did that. I worked at it and improved my skills until I was able to achieve victory and was rewarded with something that makes me even better than I was before."

Putting that raid gear in the crown store says "Yeah, I borrowed my mom's credit card and punched the numbers into the keyboard. Almost didn't make it because that last number was kind of hard to read, but I buckled down and squinted at it until I could make it out. Got this sweet gear now, which means I'm a badass even though I don't have a clue how to do anything!"

Genomic

Ley wrote: »

Genomic wrote: »

Was just reading the thread about whether having motifs in the Crown Store is 'pay to win'. It struck me how the term itself is a red herring and allows your argument to be shut down because it is such a subjective and poorly defined term.

What we should really be asking is. Will this item, if offered in the crown shop, be overall good or bad for the game and a majority of its players? What is the extent of the effect it will have on the players and game?

This is correct, but I think it's also important to consider the cumulative effect of items in the store. So maybe a better way to put it would be "Will the combined offerings in the crown shop, be overall good or bad for the game and a majority of its players? What is the extent of the effect it will have on the players and game?"

Having motifs for sale will devalue the game for some, not for others. As will mats, or XP pots, or race changes, etc , etc. Add the cumulative effect of all of these items on the game and it becomes far more pronounced than the effect of just motifs, or just XP pots.

More and more items will be added to the cash shop. It would be easy and certainly tempting for ZOS to get greedy and over-monetize the game. And everyone has the point where they say "too far", though this of course differs between individuals. Even though you personally may not have a problem with just XP pots, for example, you almost certainly have a line too where the game gets monetized to the point where it is devalued to you.

I just hope ZOS is careful with their management of the Crown Store, and don't go "too far" for the majority of players. It would be so easy to do, I know most of us have seen it happen to other games.

Emma_Overload

lordrichter wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

In theory, I'm against P2W, but in practice, I'm willing to make exceptions:

1) Some items (like motifs) aren't gained through actions that could honestly be called "playing", but through repetitive, robot-like actions like checking through the same room of containers... over and over and over for hours and hours and hours. That's how I got all my purple motifs, but I'm not mad that they put them in the Crown Store, because I know I would have bought them in a heartbeat if I could!!

I think that the common motifs are fine for the store, but the rare ones should be in the game only.

I don't think it is normal to be grinding motifs "through repetitive, robot-like actions like checking through the same room of containers... over and over and over for hours and hours and hours." To me this is aberrant behavior. Irregular behavior that deviates from what is considered normal. Sure, you can choose to do it that way, but it is not what was intended.

My issue with your statement is that the cash shop becomes a fix for bad game design. Just the fact that you can grind the containers in the same room over and over for hours and hours points to a flaw in the game. The cash shop rather conveniently fixes this without actually changing the game.

Going beyond what you said, my issue with the rare motifs, and why I think my run with ESO is coming to a close, is that the rare motifs in the store are better than the ones people get in the game. All the ones in the store can be used immediately, bypassing that annoying crafting skill Rank requirement that just gets in the way.

If they do not fix this on Monday in the next patch, then I think we can look forward to incremental changes in the store to introduce better items, or more convenient items, than what can be obtained outside of the store. Only self discipline prevents them from doing this, and that can be in short supply when they are desperate for money and people keep whispering in their ear how nice it is for them to do it.

OK, you're probably right about most of this. I can't argue with "the cash shop becomes a fix for bad game design", but what can we do except pay or grind? From the devs' point of view, the game design is fine if it pushes people to spend more cash! I don't think they'll change the way loot drops any time soon, so I figure we may as well ask for them to put stuff in the shop we actually want.

Faulgor

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I agree with the OP.
Further, I absolutely hate to hear something is "just cosmetic". This is an RPG: A role playing game. Character customization, especially visually, is not just a fringe addition to the genre, it's at the core. There's a reason why visual modifications are among the most popular mods for TES games.
And it's also a huge reward incentive. Farming materials to craft bunny ears with no discernable benefit for your girlfriend? Been there. Running the same dungeon over and over again to get a boss helmet because it would fit your character just so well? Doing it still. Removing these scenarios from the game absolutely and directly diminishes the experience.

But why do you have a problem with anyone else earning it?
Whether it's earned via crowns or not...what's the issue with the reason why you feel others should not "qualify" unless they earned it the way you have?

Two problems I have with that view.

First, it has no limits. As long as something can be earned in the game, you could use that argument to have it for sale as well. Yet everybody abhors the idea of selling max level characters and endgame gear. There's obvisouly a line somewhere for everyone, but it's not contained in the argument.

Second, a game has rules, and it can only be played by those rules. I'm not going to win at chess by playing a really good card - there are no cards in chess. And no matter how much you pay, you're not getting your queen back unless you get a pawn to my side. You might say that an MMO, especially in terms of cosmetic content, is not competitive in the way chess is. But the point is that the rules of the game are eroded so much by the introduction of shortcuts that the reward structure becomes absolutely meaningless, and the game turns into a costume carnival without any incentive to play the actual content. Whether I use those shortcuts myself or not, their mere existence cheapens the game because players are not playing by the same rules.
If this is not convincing enough, I don't know what could be - fairplay and equal treament are such fundamental human (and several other animal species) needs that to deny them is to turn our whole being on its head.

TheShadowScout

Considering how much the Motivs cost... I for one would think it much easier to earn gold in game and buy them from some guild store then pay crowns Not like there is much else to spend your gold on at a certain stage, right? So, definitely not "pay to win"... more like pay for convinience.

Some have mentioned it, the thing is where you draw the line. Personally I think anyone who pays for stuff they can also play for is just cheating themselves out of parts of the game, overpaying for something they could have while saving the money, or desperate enough to consider it worth it. I have no problem with that, though I likely wouldn't follow their example... but its nowhere near PtW. Experience potions come closer, but in the end also only let someone play in 40 minutes what others play an hour for, yes? Play longer, save your money.
Pay to Win is if they were to start selling the best rank of gear -only- in the crown store. And if they ever go there, they'd loose my subscription. But so far they aren't even looking in that direction, so I'm not worried...

Oliviander

Genomic wrote: »

Was just reading the thread about whether having motifs in the Crown Store is 'pay to win'. It struck me how the term itself is a red herring and allows your argument to be shut down because it is such a subjective and poorly defined term.

As the OP of the aforementioned thread I fully agree with the OP of this thread.

And after reading the whole thread I think one of the problems of the Question
what is P2W is the Question "How do you play the game"

In the beginning of this game I think there were many players that did
PvE exclusively. Their only interaction with others might have been the trading system.
For them the Question if you gain an Advantage over an other player
is simply irrelevant. For them the acheivementpoints can easily a goal of the game.
And I am sure from their perspective nearly every buyable convenience item
must look as P2W.
( But I am sure many of them left TESO in the meantime becuase of the lacking content )

I for myself play TESO and any other MMO with the goal to gain as much ingame wealth as possible.
So if you invest in things the question is rather is their ingame worth devaluated by the
Crown store or not.
Therefore I don't see the crownstore as P2W by now for me, as the prices for convenience items
are rather ridicoulos.

But in this thread there were opinions, that would call
grinding or farming not honestly playing. And I do not agree with them.

I am sure any MMO lives from the variety of players and the variety of their goals and ways.
If you drive off one group you decimate your player base without need.

Or you see it the other way round: If there is enough convenience to buy for little money,
ZOS can easily skip the whole Single player PvE content of the game and don't have to bother with it
anymore.

Muizer

Well said OP. Instant gratification ultimatly is no gratification at all.

Granz

It's amazing how people don't want ZoS to be able to make money in any way. They remove the sub and put up a carefully developed store and some still scream P2W. Hell there are 2 threads here about them printing text in the middle of their screen advertising the crown store and how unacceptable that is. How do you complainers think they are going to keep this game going if they don't make money? I am subbed to this game just to give them some cash to develop the game.

There is nothing on the crown store that is P2W. In fact I am waiting for accelerated XP / VP potions on the store. I am sure half the people here will lose their minds when or if that happens.