Can we have a proper place to test DPS?

henryabelarwb17_ESO

This game drives me nuts, no matter how much one tests, the dps always varies by a lot, and I know there are a lot of factors involved such as crit, resistance etc... but the way the dps varies from one run to another (same bosses) is too much, that one cannot really assess how one can improve one's build. What I suggest is we have place with mannequins each with a different resistance etc... so we can test properly our builds.

xMovingTarget

Strawman as a pet we can summon would be the best option. Age of Conan had it that way.

Merlin13KAGL

Come to think of it, you can actually attack the strawmen in the Cyrodiil siege range (starter quest/training area), but I don't recall how many HP's they have.

LameoveR

Mannequins like in WoW!

JaJaLuka

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Come to think of it, you can actually attack the strawmen in the Cyrodiil siege range (starter quest/training area), but I don't recall how many HP's they have.

after one light attack they explode, so not a lot of HP

Psychobunni

+1

However, be warned this has been asked for since beta

Valymer

It would be pointless to bump this thread

C0pp3rhead

On one episode of ESO Live! they said that "they were working on it."

Hrmmmm....

xMovingTarget

Psychobunni wrote: »

+1

However, be warned this has been asked for since beta

True. At least in one of the recent ESO Live episodes they talked about it and said they might add it at some point.

Internally they have a Eric Wrobel punishement test dummy. So it's not that it's impossible to implement.

Rune_Relic

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

On one episode of ESO Live! they said that "they were working on it."

Hrmmmm....

Wait... is that greater than or less than soon[tm] ?
Trying to decide if I should get excited.

Valymer

Rune_Relic wrote: »

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

On one episode of ESO Live! they said that "they were working on it."

Hrmmmm....

Wait... is that greater than or less than soon[tm] ?
Trying to decide if I should get excited.

In specific terms, it is a point in time between now and the (theoretical) heat death of the universe

xMovingTarget

Rune_Relic wrote: »

C0pp3rhead wrote: »

On one episode of ESO Live! they said that "they were working on it."

Hrmmmm....

Wait... is that greater than or less than soon[tm] ?
Trying to decide if I should get excited.

Nobody knows.

Alphashado

We have been asking for target dummies for a very long time. Just another useful item that should be in the cash shop instead of 20 vanity pets.

Valymer

Alphashado wrote: »

We have been asking for target dummies for a very long time. Just another useful item that should be in the cash shop instead of 20 vanity pets.

NO, this is not something that we should have to pay RL money for. This is a basic feature that all MMOs should have.

Terminus1

This is a non-issue.

DPS is a red herring at best. Your DPS is entirely dependent upon situationals that you can not measure for every situation. There are different mobs, different numbers of mobs, different location benefits, well - just way to many things to take into account when fighting one mob or set of mobs vs a different mob or sets of mobs.

ANY reliance on DPS is ridiculous at best.

AaronMB

When ZO$ fixes their crap, maybe--maybe--we'll get target dummies or the like. But until then, I firmly believe that our ability to test DPS will only further highlight what isn't working properly.

henryabelarwb17_ESO

Terminus1 wrote: »

This is a non-issue.

DPS is a red herring at best. Your DPS is entirely dependent upon situationals that you can not measure for every situation. There are different mobs, different numbers of mobs, different location benefits, well - just way to many things to take into account when fighting one mob or set of mobs vs a different mob or sets of mobs.

ANY reliance on DPS is ridiculous at best.

We know that... still we need a form of non variable Standard to measure against... otherwise u go nuts! Its so variable its unbelievable, like you can get same gear same everything one run u do 11-12k dps the next you do 8-9k

Valymer

Terminus1 wrote: »

This is a non-issue.

DPS is a red herring at best. Your DPS is entirely dependent upon situationals that you can not measure for every situation. There are different mobs, different numbers of mobs, different location benefits, well - just way to many things to take into account when fighting one mob or set of mobs vs a different mob or sets of mobs.

ANY reliance on DPS is ridiculous at best.

I hope you realize that your argument merely proves the need for a way to perform standardized testing.

DPS against a single, static mob (a test dummy that doesn't move, block, etc.) is 100% quantifiable and is a good measure of one's theoretical damage per second. Obviously in practice it is difficult to attain one's theoretical maximum DPS, but the ability to test various builds/gear/rotations against an unchanging entity will help immensely in refining a player's setup.

Alphashado

Valymer wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

We have been asking for target dummies for a very long time. Just another useful item that should be in the cash shop instead of 20 vanity pets.

NO, this is not something that we should have to pay RL money for. This is a basic feature that all MMOs should have.

I don't disagree with that. But at this point I would rather see it in the cash shop than not at all. If it takes greed to make it happen, then so be it.

Valymer

Alphashado wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

We have been asking for target dummies for a very long time. Just another useful item that should be in the cash shop instead of 20 vanity pets.

NO, this is not something that we should have to pay RL money for. This is a basic feature that all MMOs should have.

I don't disagree with that. But at this point I would rather see it in the cash shop than not at all. If it takes greed to make it happen, then so be it.

Fair enough. But let's not give them any bright ideas

Ommamar

Valymer wrote: »

Terminus1 wrote: »

This is a non-issue.

DPS is a red herring at best. Your DPS is entirely dependent upon situationals that you can not measure for every situation. There are different mobs, different numbers of mobs, different location benefits, well - just way to many things to take into account when fighting one mob or set of mobs vs a different mob or sets of mobs.

ANY reliance on DPS is ridiculous at best.

I hope you realize that your argument merely proves the need for a way to perform standardized testing.

DPS against a single, static mob (a test dummy that doesn't move, block, etc.) is 100% quantifiable and is a good measure of one's theoretical damage per second. Obviously in practice it is difficult to attain one's theoretical maximum DPS, but the ability to test various builds/gear/rotations against an unchanging entity will help immensely in refining a player's setup.

That might give you an idea on an individual non interactive mob but really the only time you are concerned with the damage rate is in a group. So since your group mates will greatly effect the damage you produce as well as the damage that won't be mitigated it wouldn't be that useful to use that data.

Oh there is also some good add-ons that will give a good breakdown of your stats per fight.

Terminus1

Here's the rub though. Let's say you get a training dummy that tells you your theorhetorical DPS (yeah, see what I did there?) - now you have this imaginary number set in your mind as to what you "should" be doing. Then you run off and do - oh - say ANYTHING else. Guess what - your not hitting your mark. You never will. And then you go around posting in zone trying to get a decent group for a Pledge "NB with 17k DPS lfg Gold Pledge!!!" only you don't hit 17k. In fact, you can't hit 5k. Is it because YOU suck? No. It has to do with so many variables that your DPS paradigm is totally useless. It isn't just YOU that isn't working. It is where you are at. It is who you are with. it is so many things that it can't be properly measured.

You say that this is way you need standardized testing etc. And really, that is a good reply. Except that it is wrong. You see, in order to maximize your DPS you are going to get set in your attacks. You are going to set it up so that you hit button 1, then button 2, then light attack light attack button 1 (just an example). The mob is dead an you maxed out your DPS as intended. But that doesn't always work. It will NEVER always work. You should never set your "perfect attack sequence" and live by that DPS number. The fact is that the most successful player is the player that is fluid. DPS means nothing. Knowing what to do when and where will be more important than a number you will never realize to it's full potential.

A-Rod is not the best baseball player ever. But he is better than most at almost everything he does on the field. He has options and knows how to handle every play. This is what you should strive for - utility.

Valymer

Ommamar wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

Terminus1 wrote: »

This is a non-issue.

DPS is a red herring at best. Your DPS is entirely dependent upon situationals that you can not measure for every situation. There are different mobs, different numbers of mobs, different location benefits, well - just way to many things to take into account when fighting one mob or set of mobs vs a different mob or sets of mobs.

ANY reliance on DPS is ridiculous at best.

I hope you realize that your argument merely proves the need for a way to perform standardized testing.

DPS against a single, static mob (a test dummy that doesn't move, block, etc.) is 100% quantifiable and is a good measure of one's theoretical damage per second. Obviously in practice it is difficult to attain one's theoretical maximum DPS, but the ability to test various builds/gear/rotations against an unchanging entity will help immensely in refining a player's setup.

That might give you an idea on an individual non interactive mob but really the only time you are concerned with the damage rate is in a group. So since your group mates will greatly effect the damage you produce as well as the damage that won't be mitigated it wouldn't be that useful to use that data.

Oh there is also some good add-ons that will give a good breakdown of your stats per fight.

What it does is give you a baseline. Party buffs and debuffs will alter that baseline, but the baseline itself will not change given the same build and rotation.

I'm not sure that I am making myself clear.

The point of a test dummy is to perform test comparison between different setups on the exact same mob, under the exact same conditions. In scientific testing I guess this would be called the control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_variable

In an experiment, the control variable is something that is constant and unchanged. Further, a control variable strongly influences values; it is held constant to test the relative impact of independent variables.

The independent variables in this case would be things like the skills in a rotation, mundus stone, attribute allocation, armor and enchants, etc.

But if the target is also constantly undergoing changes--either through mechanics such as blocking or by virtue of simply moving out of range--it becomes nearly impossible to conduct accurate testings, because you don't know whether the new rotation you just tried is better or you simply got luckier that go-round with the mechanics.

The point is not to compare the dps that you dish out on the testing dummy to ANY other real-world mob or situation. This would be a meaningless comparison. The point is that we need a control variable to be sure that the differences that we are seeing in parses are not due to things that have nothing to do with the build itself, but rather extraneous elements such as variations in mob resistance/mitigation, etc.

henryabelarwb17_ESO

Terminus1 wrote: »

Here's the rub though. Let's say you get a training dummy that tells you your theorhetorical DPS (yeah, see what I did there?) - now you have this imaginary number set in your mind as to what you "should" be doing. Then you run off and do - oh - say ANYTHING else. Guess what - your not hitting your mark. You never will. And then you go around posting in zone trying to get a decent group for a Pledge "NB with 17k DPS lfg Gold Pledge!!!" only you don't hit 17k. In fact, you can't hit 5k. Is it because YOU suck? No. It has to do with so many variables that your DPS paradigm is totally useless. It isn't just YOU that isn't working. It is where you are at. It is who you are with. it is so many things that it can't be properly measured.

You say that this is way you need standardized testing etc. And really, that is a good reply. Except that it is wrong. You see, in order to maximize your DPS you are going to get set in your attacks. You are going to set it up so that you hit button 1, then button 2, then light attack light attack button 1 (just an example). The mob is dead an you maxed out your DPS as intended. But that doesn't always work. It will NEVER always work. You should never set your "perfect attack sequence" and live by that DPS number. The fact is that the most successful player is the player that is fluid. DPS means nothing. Knowing what to do when and where will be more important than a number you will never realize to it's full potential.

A-Rod is not the best baseball player ever. But he is better than most at almost everything he does on the field. He has options and knows how to handle every play. This is what you should strive for - utility.

The standard would be there so that we can see how any gear/stat changes affect the dps... its not for real play its a means to benchmark and have a point of reference.

Terminus1

Sure. Get a magic number but don't ever use it? A true min-maxer would realize that DPS is only accurate for one fight. And that number is only a report of what you already did - not what you will do in the future.

Now please don't misunderstand me - I really DO wish they would put a training dummy in. If for no other reason that to make money off of you.

vkayne_ESO

henryabelarwb17_ESO

Again, at the moment any change in gear or stats are almost impossible to gauge, this would help one to see the difference, because atm we do not know what is broken and what is not, like nirhorned staff, one run u sometimes reach 15-16k and then next run same boos same grp u get a measly 8-9k. So when one is trying to figure out of its because of lag, latency, something broken or a failed rotation its enough to drive one nuts... I killed thousands of mammoths with different setups and believe it or not sometimes wearing wrong gear would still not decrease the dps by a lot... not to mention when u use skills like entropy the dps would actually go down! instead of increase...

Alphashado

Terminus1 wrote: »

Here's the rub though. Let's say you get a training dummy that tells you your theorhetorical DPS (yeah, see what I did there?) - now you have this imaginary number set in your mind as to what you "should" be doing. Then you run off and do - oh - say ANYTHING else. Guess what - your not hitting your mark. You never will. And then you go around posting in zone trying to get a decent group for a Pledge "NB with 17k DPS lfg Gold Pledge!!!" only you don't hit 17k. In fact, you can't hit 5k. Is it because YOU suck? No. It has to do with so many variables that your DPS paradigm is totally useless. It isn't just YOU that isn't working. It is where you are at. It is who you are with. it is so many things that it can't be properly measured.

You say that this is way you need standardized testing etc. And really, that is a good reply. Except that it is wrong. You see, in order to maximize your DPS you are going to get set in your attacks. You are going to set it up so that you hit button 1, then button 2, then light attack light attack button 1 (just an example). The mob is dead an you maxed out your DPS as intended. But that doesn't always work. It will NEVER always work. You should never set your "perfect attack sequence" and live by that DPS number. The fact is that the most successful player is the player that is fluid. DPS means nothing. Knowing what to do when and where will be more important than a number you will never realize to it's full potential.

A-Rod is not the best baseball player ever. But he is better than most at almost everything he does on the field. He has options and knows how to handle every play. This is what you should strive for - utility.

Sorry, but you are VERY mistaken. Proper encounter management is important, but getting good Dps is also important. Especially when there are bosses in the game that will wipe the group if not killed fast enough. DPS is just as important a role as healing or tanking and as such. A good dps should be able to manage encounters as well as dish out a lot of damage. Target dummies would allow dps to practice builds and skls that can sustain a high amount of dmg without running out of resources.

Forestd16b14_ESO

make it happen

Gidorick

Just let us beat on dead horses.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/160275/dead-horse-nope-target-dummy

Naivefanboi

Ommamar wrote: »

Valymer wrote: »

Terminus1 wrote: »

This is a non-issue.

DPS is a red herring at best. Your DPS is entirely dependent upon situationals that you can not measure for every situation. There are different mobs, different numbers of mobs, different location benefits, well - just way to many things to take into account when fighting one mob or set of mobs vs a different mob or sets of mobs.

ANY reliance on DPS is ridiculous at best.

I hope you realize that your argument merely proves the need for a way to perform standardized testing.

DPS against a single, static mob (a test dummy that doesn't move, block, etc.) is 100% quantifiable and is a good measure of one's theoretical damage per second. Obviously in practice it is difficult to attain one's theoretical maximum DPS, but the ability to test various builds/gear/rotations against an unchanging entity will help immensely in refining a player's setup.

That might give you an idea on an individual non interactive mob but really the only time you are concerned with the damage rate is in a group. So since your group mates will greatly effect the damage you produce as well as the damage that won't be mitigated it wouldn't be that useful to use that data.

Oh there is also some good add-ons that will give a good breakdown of your stats per fight.

yea dont think console will have access to addons, i could be wrong tho. anyways just being able to toggle damage numbers on and off of a target is pretty reasonable they should just put it in ui. imo.