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Regarding Crashes and Memory Useage

Rylana
Rylana
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So after a lot of careful reading on the subject, both on the forums and in various internet searches related to the topic, it has become very clear to me, Zenimax, that you need to revert some recent changes.

To wit: Anything you have implemented that causes the client to attempt to allocate more than 2 GB of system memory. The reason this is standard practice is because a 32 bit OS (the norm when the standard for 32 bit programming was set) can only map up to 3GB of RAM. Therefore any program running on a 32 bit OS had to take into account the fact the OS had to also run alongside it, along with potentially other services and programs as well, leaving at least 1GB of ram mappable by 32 bit OS to be used for other things (inclusive of the OS itself).

Reasons.

1. The client is 32 bit with a hard cap of 2GB allowed to be allocated before it exceeds its design tolerances. http://www.viva64.com/en/k/0036/ This is normal design practice and dates back over a decade. The fact you as an entity are deviating from this model is setting a horrible precedent.
2. A sizeable portion of your playerbase is still using 32 bit OS. In fact, according to http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/ fully 20 percent of all reported machines from this data sample are still using 32 bit OS. This value may or may not reflect a similar sample size of your own localized playerbase, though it forms a solid foundation to speculate as it is from Steam, which means many of those reporting are gamers. 1 in every 5 players of your game is affected by this DIRECTLY.
3. Even on a 64 bit machine, the memory allocation for this game is still locked via its 32 bit nature to 2 GB (and potentially 4 in some configurations) of useable system RAM, despite many of those systems having 8-16 installed.
4. The game is advertised right on the box as having a 32 bit OS as a minimum requirement. It is expected that at minimum settings the game would function within all playable and useable parameters, albeit at a loss of visual performance or speed. It does not mean that it should crash every five minutes because it is allocating over the limits the advertising clearly sets at the minimum standard.

Solutions.

1. Streamline your codebase to ensure at no time would the client attempt to allocate more than 2GB of system ram, as per its advertised specifications
2. Revert previous additions to textures and graphics, that while pretty and nice to look at, have steadily caused more issues to crop up over the last year.
3. Ensure that any additional features added to the game in the future remain within the 2GB design limitation, and never exceed it. Support for exceeding the limit for 64 bit machines could be looked at, but would require a 64 bit client to utilize.
4. Stop telling your players that it is their machines, as it is clearly not, it is your own design that is causing incompatibilities with user configurations that had previously been well within advertised limits.
5. Add an option to the settings menu to undo any of these graphical settings or new "fluff" added to the game, so that those who used to be able to play the game normally whom are now experiencing these crashes can return to a state where the game is again playable.

Note: This issue has nothing to do with your recent changes to VRAM requirements. Graphics card settings are not the problem, it is the game engine itself overloading system ram by using too much memory for a 32 bit client, and exceeding hard limitations thereof. In a nutshell you need to reign in the client so it uses at MOST 2GB of system ram, at any given time, in any given situation, always. Ensure that data no longer in actual use is being released from RAM promptly, as it may be taking up needed space (with the 2 GB design window) for new data entering. Otherwise the game crash issue will never be resolved, as it cannot be resolved any other way.
Edited by Rylana on April 12, 2015 11:37AM
@rylanadionysis == Closed Beta Tester October 2013 == Retired October 2016 == Uninstalled @ One Tamriel Release == Inactive Indefinitely
Ebonheart Pact: Lyzara Dionysis - Sorc - AR 37 (Former Empress of Blackwater Blade and Haderus) == Shondra Dionysis - Temp - AR 23 == Arrianaya Dionysis - DK - AR 17
Aldmeri Dominion: Rylana Dionysis - DK - AR 25 == Kailiana - NB - AR 21 == Minerva Dionysis - Temp - AR 21 == Victoria Dionysis - Sorc - AR 13
Daggerfall Covenant: Dannika Dionysis - DK - AR 21 == The Catman Rises - Temp - AR 15 (Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade)
Forum LOL Champion (retired) == Black Belt in Ballista-Fu == The Last Vice Member == Praise Cheesus == Electro-Goblin
  • tonyglissonb14_ESO
    tonyglissonb14_ESO
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    Yeah its kinda bad getting memory-leak crashes when you have 64 gigs of system ram and 4 gigs of video ram.

    (Yes i know i have too much ram, but the slots were empty when i built machine)
    I-7 3990k, 2 Gtx760.
    Edited by tonyglissonb14_ESO on April 12, 2015 12:15PM
  • Haqikah
    Haqikah
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    The game is very stable for me, I cannot remember the last crash - so that's a good sign. Perhaps running on 64bit windows 8 with 32GB ram prevents me from having these problems, or I'm just lucky to dodge this issue.
  • Rylana
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    Haqikah wrote: »
    The game is very stable for me, I cannot remember the last crash - so that's a good sign. Perhaps running on 64bit windows 8 with 32GB ram prevents me from having these problems, or I'm just lucky to dodge this issue.

    Its completely possible your machine is running in one of the 4GB allowable configurations I mentioned. You sir, are one of the lucky ones. At least until they exceed that limitation, as well. According to some of the crash reports people have posted to the PC Technical Support forum below, there have been 3k peaks on some ultra setting systems already. Once those reach 3.5k, even monsters like your rig will start to crash out as well, as even your system cannot map more than that for a 32 bit client.

    Only a matter of time, and thats what I am trying to stop/prevent.

    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/154684/since-new-patch-1-6-5-constant-crash-reporter#latest
    Edited by Rylana on April 12, 2015 11:49AM
    @rylanadionysis == Closed Beta Tester October 2013 == Retired October 2016 == Uninstalled @ One Tamriel Release == Inactive Indefinitely
    Ebonheart Pact: Lyzara Dionysis - Sorc - AR 37 (Former Empress of Blackwater Blade and Haderus) == Shondra Dionysis - Temp - AR 23 == Arrianaya Dionysis - DK - AR 17
    Aldmeri Dominion: Rylana Dionysis - DK - AR 25 == Kailiana - NB - AR 21 == Minerva Dionysis - Temp - AR 21 == Victoria Dionysis - Sorc - AR 13
    Daggerfall Covenant: Dannika Dionysis - DK - AR 21 == The Catman Rises - Temp - AR 15 (Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade)
    Forum LOL Champion (retired) == Black Belt in Ballista-Fu == The Last Vice Member == Praise Cheesus == Electro-Goblin
  • ItsGlaive
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    The game could do with some stability tweaks, but if they took out all the good textures and eye candy for the 1/5th of computer users using a heavily outdated system I wouldn't be pleased.

    32bit is gone, it's time for those running antiquated systems to bite the bullet, upgrade, and stop holding game designers back.
    Edited by ItsGlaive on April 12, 2015 11:58AM
    Allow cross-platform transfers and merges
  • Rylana
    Rylana
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    Xabien wrote: »
    The game could do with some stability tweaks, but if they took out all the good textures and eye candy for the 1/5th of computer users using a heavily outdated system I wouldn't be pleased.

    32bit is gone, it's time for those running antiquated systems to bite the bullet, upgrade, and stop holding game designers back.

    Did you not read the linked articles? Even the posters above me with 32 and 64 gigs of ram can be affected by this issue. In fact, many 64 bit users ARE being affected.

    The client is 32 bit, because of its very nature it has to be able to stably run on a 32 bit machine. If it cannot, then its out of design tolerance, and can even affect 64 bit platforms because they only have a moderately higher tolerance related to 32 bit clients.

    To summarize, you could have the biggest 64 bit computer in the world, and the moment this games client exceeds the allowable mapping for that systems configuration (the absolute max is 4gig even on a 64 bit system), it will crash there as well. They are getting dangerously close to even that threshold. So you can take your snark about "bad machines" and do some research and figure out why youre wrong.

    Your argument about holding them back ended the moment you failed to realize the game itself is written for 32 bit.

    http://www.viva64.com/en/k/0036/
    Edited by Rylana on April 12, 2015 12:11PM
    @rylanadionysis == Closed Beta Tester October 2013 == Retired October 2016 == Uninstalled @ One Tamriel Release == Inactive Indefinitely
    Ebonheart Pact: Lyzara Dionysis - Sorc - AR 37 (Former Empress of Blackwater Blade and Haderus) == Shondra Dionysis - Temp - AR 23 == Arrianaya Dionysis - DK - AR 17
    Aldmeri Dominion: Rylana Dionysis - DK - AR 25 == Kailiana - NB - AR 21 == Minerva Dionysis - Temp - AR 21 == Victoria Dionysis - Sorc - AR 13
    Daggerfall Covenant: Dannika Dionysis - DK - AR 21 == The Catman Rises - Temp - AR 15 (Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade)
    Forum LOL Champion (retired) == Black Belt in Ballista-Fu == The Last Vice Member == Praise Cheesus == Electro-Goblin
  • TymmyD
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    I'm confused. When I first bought ESO, they said it was a 64-bit client. When did it become a 32-bit client?!
  • ItsGlaive
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    Rylana wrote: »
    Xabien wrote: »
    The game could do with some stability tweaks, but if they took out all the good textures and eye candy for the 1/5th of computer users using a heavily outdated system I wouldn't be pleased.

    32bit is gone, it's time for those running antiquated systems to bite the bullet, upgrade, and stop holding game designers back.

    Did you not read the linked articles? Even the posters above me with 32 and 64 gigs of ram can be affected by this issue. In fact, many 64 bit users ARE being affected.

    The client is 32 bit, because of its very nature it has to be able to stably run on a 32 bit machine. If it cannot, then its out of design tolerance, and can even affect 64 bit platforms because they only have a moderately higher tolerance related to 32 bit clients.

    To summarize, you could have the biggest 64 bit computer in the world, and the moment this games client exceeds the allowable mapping for that systems configuration (the absolute max is 4gig even on a 64 bit system), it will crash there as well. They are getting dangerously close to even that threshold. So you can take your snark about "bad machines" and do some research and figure out why youre wrong.

    Your argument about holding them back ended the moment you failed to realize the game itself is written for 32 bit.

    http://www.viva64.com/en/k/0036/

    In terms of holding them back, I was talking about the lighting and high-res textures. The game runs fine on my PC, although in recent weeks admittedly there've been a couple of freezes, I've put that down to the increase in population affecting performance.

    I'm also a firm believer that we should have a 64bit client. I don't believe that eye candy should take a back seat to appease the lower end of the PC market though, given that we're predominantly in the 64bit PC age.
    Allow cross-platform transfers and merges
  • blackevil86
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    They chose a crappy engine so the game itself can not be optimised more than the engine allows it. They should rewrite the game from scratch to stand up to current tech.
  • LameoveR
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    It's ok. Game doesn't eat more than 3.8+ GB.
    It can allocate more than 2gb itself, despite of system configuration.
    32bit systems ARE limited. That's all.
    Screenshot:
    e6UI.png
  • Valymer
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    I'm on 64-bit Windows 7 with 16 GB system memory and I crash 5-10 times per day now randomly. I wonder if it is related to this.
  • LameoveR
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    Valymer wrote: »
    I'm on 64-bit Windows 7 with 16 GB system memory and I crash 5-10 times per day now randomly. I wonder if it is related to this.
    It related to your addons, i'm sure.
  • stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO
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    Solutions.

    1. Streamline your codebase

    Probably not going to happen. This is the game programming business. They don't do refactoring.
  • Valymer
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    LameoveR wrote: »
    Valymer wrote: »
    I'm on 64-bit Windows 7 with 16 GB system memory and I crash 5-10 times per day now randomly. I wonder if it is related to this.
    It related to your addons, i'm sure.

    So why does it happen with them all turned off?
  • whvice
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    crash happens every time when i try to access the guild store after completing a vet dungeon run, on a daily basis.
    New troll here
  • Streega
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    Rylana wrote: »
    3. Even on a 64 bit machine, the memory allocation for this game is still locked via its 32 bit nature to 2 GB (and potentially 4 in some configurations) of useable system RAM, despite many of those systems having 8-16 installed.

    Can you give an example of such configuration? Recently I've expanded my RAM up to 8 GB and now I have almost no lags, and I wonder if it's because of more RAM or because they fixed sth with the latest patch. My rig is AMD Phenom II X4 CPU, 8 GB RAM and Radeon 7790 GPU on Win7 64 bit, and 8 Mbps LAN. Runs smoothly on high setings. Btw, I'm on EU server.
    ⊂( ̄(工) ̄)⊃ Don't-Care-Bear ⊂( ̄(工) ̄)⊃
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