NIRNHONED VS. SHARPENED VS. PRECISE

Jules

Did a little bit of testing last night with engulfing flames, burning embers, and molten whip- just watching base damage and crits.

I tried: (all purples cause I didn't have yellow nirnhoned)
Nirnhoned
Sharpened
Precise
With apprentice mundus

As well as:
Nirnhoned
Sharpened
Precise
With mage mundus

Basically:
Nirnhoned > sharpened > precise
Mage > Apprentice
Sharpened & Nirnhoned = not giving stated amount of spell pen


UPDATE:
Focus Rating Values: without any buffs up, same bars and gear for all, apprentice mundus
I'm using Harven's Extended Stats, not sure if this is reliable information or if another add on would be able to provide me with better info.


Forgive me if I'm wrong but shouldn't the sharpened value be 12% higher than the no staff value? And shouldn't nirnhoned give 4% more than sharpened? If this is how it is intended to work, and this add on is correct, both of these traits are broken.

No Staff Equipped 16422



Sharpened Staff Equipped 16542 (purple) -supposed to give 12% increase to spell penetration, should be 18393. A loss of 1851 spell pen. It's also curious that when equipping a yellow sharpened staff the value does not change at all. It remains 16542.



Nirnhoned Staff Equipped 16560 (purple) -supposed to give 16% increase to spell penetration, should be 19050. A loss of 2490 spell pen.



But if the character sheet is correct, the difference between nirnhoned & sharpened is very slight. It's only a difference of 18 spell pen. This difference certainly doesn't amount to 4%.


Also, what is everyone's focus rating at? I feel mine is low but I'd like to know what the avg is.



UPDATE:
Damage numbers vs. Scaled Court Conjurer. Flames of Obv up, full pvp buffs, 50% crit chance (except with precise, 57%)




It seems to me that both sharpened and nirnhoned are underperforming in terms of actually applying the correct % increase of spell penetration. Nirnhoned gives more than sharpened but both seem to be weaker than they should be. If anyone is more knowledgeable about the relationship between spell penetration & spell resistance, please feel free to share. I'm by no means an expert but my basic math and understanding of this concept tell me that 1) nirnhoned needs a buff, it does not provide 4% more spell pen than sharpened. 2) neither provide their stated % increase of spell pen

xMovingTarget

Thanks Juzi. But for fair measure you shoukd do a 1 minute fighttime test aswell. To give precise a chance to actually do something.

Nirnhoned should give the highest pen now. Since sharpened got fixed.

Just give us some base numbers for mage vs apprentice (damage numbers)

Greetz

Jules

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Thanks Juzi. But for fair measure you shoukd do a 1 minute fighttime test aswell. To give precise a chance to actually do something.

Greetz

That's true. Precise might outweigh both if its a long fight like serpent. Esp important with DK's since we have so many dots ticking.

Cuyler

Hey @Jules thanks for doing the tests!.

I'm very interested to hear about the questions/issues both you and @xMovingTarget brought up. Any updates since yesterday?

xMovingTarget

I am not able to play atm. So we rely on Jules for this one

Jules

xMovingTarget wrote: »

I am not able to play atm. So we rely on Jules for this one

@xMovingTarget @Cuyler

Lol oh no! We're all done for.
Jk jk I'll try and see if I can piece some things together tn.

I did confirm last night that the spell resist reduction from ele drain doesn't stack (it shouldnt, but it was worth testing). Haven't had a way to confirm whether the Magicka return stacks or whether it applies to only the caster or allies too. That ones a little harder to figure out because we all have varying magicka recoveries and reduction costs and I'm not sure how to measure with a constant present.


As far as the staffs being correct, I'm just not sure yet. Sure they're correct in order of spell penetration effectiveness but not sure about the values at all.

I guess I'll have to look at my focus rating with no staff/precise staff
Measure that against sharpened to see if sharpened has correct % more
And if nirnhoned has additional % over sharpened
Then we'll know the staffs are correct spell pen.
I just still am not sure of the relationship between spell pen and spell resist and have yet been able to find anyone to explain it to me in a simple, definitive way. Everyone seems to have their own theories and it's very confusing.

I peaked at 19k on mantikora last night, about 20% into the fight. That is higher than usual but unfortunately I was unable to maintain it as I ran out of magicka and was relying on battle roar and pots. Perhaps a third cooldown reduction ring would do the trick. But then we're measuring loss of spell dmg VS. gain of spell pen.

Jules

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Just give us some base numbers for mage vs apprentice (damage numbers)

I'll do this tn too.

xMovingTarget

Ele drain works groupwide. With spell pen gear, you dont gain any more from it. But the magicka return works as its supposed to. Raidwide.

Jules

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Ele drain works groupwide. With spell pen gear, you dont gain any more from it. But the magicka return works as its supposed to. Raidwide.

Right but is the magicka return capped at one ele drain or do 2,3,4 people running it return mana to group for each of their ele drains? When running 4 mans the difference in mana issues is serious. I have to run 2 spell cost reduction where as in raid (with mage mundus/FOO) im totally fine. This could be attributed to siphon spirit I guess.

Jules

edit: put it original post

helediron

I ran a series of damage tests with VR14 NB mage. I recorded what Funnel Health gave. Just weapons changed. All weapons are VR14 legendary Torug's Pact. Other gear is 1Torug heavy nirn chest, 3Cyrodiil Light, 4Martial, 2Adroidness and pure magicka build. Bar: Entropy, Cripple, Funnel, Merciless, Innerlight. The value is the damage of single hit, not DPS, not critting, no other spells used before. Numbers picked from Combat Cloud. No other buffs were running than food. The only thing changing should be just the weapon. The attacks were against Lonely Papa WB in Alik'r Giant Camp.

Please don't look so much the absolute numbers but the differences. Double nirn swords are the winner.

• firestaff precise 5014
• lightning staff nirn 5193
• restostaff precise 5014
• sharp axe 5074 (other hand empty)
• nirn axe 5103
• powered axe 5014
• nirn sword + sharp axe 5509
• nirn sword + nirn axe 5540
• nirn sword + nirn sword 5704
• nirn axe + sharp axe 5401
• sharp axe + nirn axe 5401

PS: I hate dual-wielding mage, but DPS is DPS.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Very interesting stuff, thank you everyone for the testing!

I'm curious now how this all translate to us physical/stamina damage dealers: do we want crit still? or sharpened?

xMovingTarget

Jules wrote: »

show previous quotes

xMovingTarget wrote: »

Ele drain works groupwide. With spell pen gear, you dont gain any more from it. But the magicka return works as its supposed to. Raidwide.

Right but is the magicka return capped at one ele drain or do 2,3,4 people running it return mana to group for each of their ele drains? When running 4 mans the difference in mana issues is serious. I have to run 2 spell cost reduction where as in raid (with mage mundus/FOO) im totally fine. This could be attributed to siphon spirit I guess.

It isn't capped. But you cant stack it with multiple ppl. The debuff just gets overwritten. Imagine how overpowered it would be stacking.
Syphon spirit is very bad with return.

Jules

helediron wrote: »

I ran a series of damage tests with VR14 NB mage. I recorded what Funnel Health gave. Just weapons changed. All weapons are VR14 legendary Torug's Pact. Other gear is 1Torug heavy nirn chest, 3Cyrodiil Light, 4Martial, 2Adroidness and pure magicka build. Bar: Entropy, Cripple, Funnel, Merciless, Innerlight. The value is the damage of single hit, not DPS, not critting, no other spells used before. Numbers picked from Combat Cloud. No other buffs were running than food. The only thing changing should be just the weapon. The attacks were against Lonely Papa WB in Alik'r Giant Camp.

Please don't look so much the absolute numbers but the differences. Double nirn swords are the winner.

• firestaff precise 5014
• lightning staff nirn 5193
• restostaff precise 5014
• sharp axe 5074 (other hand empty)
• nirn axe 5103
• powered axe 5014
• nirn sword + sharp axe 5509
• nirn sword + nirn axe 5540
• nirn sword + nirn sword 5704
• nirn axe + sharp axe 5401
• sharp axe + nirn axe 5401

PS: I hate dual-wielding mage, but DPS is DPS.

Yeah, that's not the first time I've seen numbers indicating DW/2h on your off bar for executes. They increase spell damage just by being equipped even without a set (like stygian). Idk if this is intended or what.

Sorcs/NBs have that one button execute so it works out for them. I actually have this set up on my sorc and NB but with the DK Im really hesitant. I don't think it could work.


Edit: ps, do you have your full nb build up by any chance? Mine feels really weak

xMovingTarget

It doesn't work for dk. Our execute requires heavy or med attacks. I tried a spelldamage build with dualwield. It sucked. Then with the same build but inferno staff, it went boom. Insane dps. We rely too much on med attack weaving as dk. Stamina weapons scale too low on that front. It lowers dps tremendously.

Molten Armaments too strong.

Jules

xMovingTarget wrote: »

It doesn't work for dk. Our execute requires heavy or med attacks. I tried a spelldamage build with dualwield. It sucked. Then with the same build but inferno staff, it went boom. Insane dps. We rely too much on med attack weaving as dk. Stamina weapons scale too low on that front. It lowers dps tremendously.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. Also loss of impulse dot/trash convenience. And the way the bars would have to be set up would require too much swapping to get to molten armaments regularly.

Spell dmg build? I presume you mean dropping valkyns and picking up another 2 piece spell dmg. I recently tested this with 2 adroitness, 3 torug, 2 cyro, 4 martial. Guess you could do 3 adroitness, 2 torug too. I felt it was kinda gimpy in comparisons to valkyns but didn't work on it too much. Did you have better luck?

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

So, am I correct in assuming that - for single-target PvP burst - that pure spell damage is a better option than trying to run with a Penetration build?

I was wanting to go Apprentice Stone ---> Full Erosion ---> Sharpened or Nirnhoned, but it appears that these things just aren't working.

Is straight-up damage going to be my best burst option?

LorDrek

Please try this test on different monsters , such as frost and storm attronach Mundus apperentice is much better . Yesterday test.

Jules

LorDrek wrote: »

Please try this test on different monsters , such as frost and storm attronach Mundus apperentice is much better . Yesterday test.

Yeah I'd like to. Unfortunately when I'm in AA its with a full group of 12 and I can't stop, swap weapons, record data, ect.

xMovingTarget

Jules wrote: »

show previous quotes

xMovingTarget wrote: »

It doesn't work for dk. Our execute requires heavy or med attacks. I tried a spelldamage build with dualwield. It sucked. Then with the same build but inferno staff, it went boom. Insane dps. We rely too much on med attack weaving as dk. Stamina weapons scale too low on that front. It lowers dps tremendously.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. Also loss of impulse dot/trash convenience. And the way the bars would have to be set up would require too much swapping to get to molten armaments regularly.

Spell dmg build? I presume you mean dropping valkyns and picking up another 2 piece spell dmg. I recently tested this with 2 adroitness, 3 torug, 2 cyro, 4 martial. Guess you could do 3 adroitness, 2 torug too. I felt it was kinda gimpy in comparisons to valkyns but didn't work on it too much. Did you have better luck?

No no no no. My usual setup. Just equipped dw for the first singletarget bar. Whio instead of pulse. Why would you drop valkyn.

helediron

Jules wrote: »

....snip...
Edit: ps, do you have your full nb build up by any chance? Mine feels really weak

@Jules , I am running full magicka build. The 1.6 weakened the build quite much. We are lacking about 20% of DPS compared to others. The reason is that both Veil and Sap/Funnel got nerfed individually. In trials i can reach 10k sustained ST DPS and peak 13k sustained on optimal situations. Impale crits 21k in execute phase. What is good is that 70% of DPS turns directly to group HPS. People rarely die around me. NB mages can run hybrid DD/healer role in DPS races, e.g. in Sanctum shadow warrior below the mantikora. If i had only one alt with DD role, i would probably respec to stamina. But crafting is big part of my game and NB mage is one of the most versatile builds i know. It's easier to level up another FotM build than level a new crafter. I have VR14 DK and another NB at VR7, which will be stamina builds.

I tried also replacing head and offhand sword with Stygian set. It looked good option because of one more spell damage buff and +2% to stats from one medium piece through undaunted passive. It made 5600 Funnel damage. Even though it had higher spelldamage (3006 buffed), two nirn swords give 5700 Funnel damage. The Stygian set is VR12 and the dagger is precise (IIRC) sharpened. No clear cut winner here. No DPS test yet.

EDIT: wrong trait in Stygian daggers.

LorDrek

Jules wrote: »

Yeah I'd like to. Unfortunately when I'm in AA its with a full group of 12 and I can't stop, swap weapons, record data, ect.

Just to try to Atronachs in Eeapers March, of course I tried trials across the runes , and then swap weapons .

But overall , it is difficult to compare the results .

Joy_Division

I'll have to test again. I got best results from sharpened / apprentice. NOTE: I do not have a spare nirnhoned staff to test stuff

Ygaer

Has anyone tried the Shadow Mundus? I'd claim that if it's giving a 10% crit damage boost, it'll out perform Mage or Apprentice with a good amount of crit.

Jules

xMovingTarget wrote: »

show previous quotes

Jules wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

It doesn't work for dk. Our execute requires heavy or med attacks. I tried a spelldamage build with dualwield. It sucked. Then with the same build but inferno staff, it went boom. Insane dps. We rely too much on med attack weaving as dk. Stamina weapons scale too low on that front. It lowers dps tremendously.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. Also loss of impulse dot/trash convenience. And the way the bars would have to be set up would require too much swapping to get to molten armaments regularly.

Spell dmg build? I presume you mean dropping valkyns and picking up another 2 piece spell dmg. I recently tested this with 2 adroitness, 3 torug, 2 cyro, 4 martial. Guess you could do 3 adroitness, 2 torug too. I felt it was kinda gimpy in comparisons to valkyns but didn't work on it too much. Did you have better luck?

No no no no. My usual setup. Just equipped dw for the first singletarget bar. Whio instead of pulse. Why would you drop valkyn.

Lol- it was just a test after they "fixed" it. I figured that valkyns was proccing every 5 seconds. Even though it has the cool down, with how many dots are applied, its bound to proc off 1 tick per 5 seconds. so every 5 seconds I get 7500 dmg. I figured if I could get a set that would increase my dps by ~ or greater than 7500 (1500/sec) it would be better.

However, yeah. That set doesn't exist.

Jules

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'll have to test again. I got best results from sharpened / apprentice. NOTE: I do not have a spare nirnhoned staff to test stuff

aww

xMovingTarget

Ygaer wrote: »

Has anyone tried the Shadow Mundus? I'd claim that if it's giving a 10% crit damage boost, it'll out perform Mage or Apprentice with a good amount of crit.

Last it was decreasing my crit chance by 10% =D totally bugged.

Joy_Division

Jules wrote: »

show previous quotes

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'll have to test again. I got best results from sharpened / apprentice. NOTE: I do not have a spare nirnhoned staff to test stuff

aww

It is a shame

Jules

Joy_Division wrote: »

show previous quotes

Jules wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I'll have to test again. I got best results from sharpened / apprentice. NOTE: I do not have a spare nirnhoned staff to test stuff

aww

It is a shame

lol, I have one researching. So in like 30 days I can make you one!

Ygaer

Good conversation here, is there any way you can perform this test again but using ele drain and adding the Shadow mundus to your testing criteria? I'd like to know if the effective benefit of additional spell pen is reduced by using a debuff you can reasonably expect every boss mob to have in a trial.

Jules

Ygaer wrote: »

Good conversation here, is there any way you can perform this test again but using ele drain and adding the Shadow mundus to your testing criteria? I'd like to know if the effective benefit of additional spell pen is reduced by using a debuff you can reasonably expect every boss mob to have in a trial.

Yes I will tonight with a tank using pierce armor.