[Proposal] Vampire Rebalance

stimpy986b14_ESO

Based on my own experience with playing as a vampire and fighting vampires as a non-vampire I notice some glaring issues with the implementation of vampires in ESO.

1. Zero drawback for being in direct sunlight and zero benefit for not

2. Zero reason to feed

3. Zero feeling like a vampire

4. Vampires (and Werewolves) can freely remain in the fighter's and mage's guilds.

I'm proposing a revamp of the vampire experience in ESO to resolve these issues and provide a more engaging vampire experience. If you intend to comment on these changes, please read through the entire proposal prior to commenting as some of them can seem drastic out of context.

To be clear, this proposal is design to put the vampire's power about on par with transformed werewolves at night when fully fed (stage 1), about on par with non-transformed werewolves during the day while fully fed (stage 1), weaker than mortals during the day when blood starved (stage 4), and more powerful than transformed werewolves at night when blood-starved (stage 4). This is to add a level of complexity to the vampire experience and give them downtime without making them into a werewolf reskin as many have suggested. Vampires that can time their feedings properly will be able to enter stage 4 right after sunset and go into full-on beastmode for the hour or so that night lasts and then binge-feed before dawn or hide in a cave/go dungeon crawling/anything that's not outside until the sun sets again.

Firstly the vampire stage passive needs to be reworked. this is where the primary drawbacks will appear.
I'm suggesting
-stage 1: +10% incoming fire damage, -25% health recovery in direct sunlight.
-stage 2: +20% incoming fire damage, -50% health recovery in direct sunlight, 20% reduction in costs of vampire abilities at night
-stage 3: +30% incoming fire damage, health recovery disabled in direct sunlight, 40% cost reduction and 10% damage bonus of vampire abilities at night.
-stage 4: +40% incoming fire damage, health recovery disabled and lose 1% health every 2s in direct sunlight, 60% cost reduction and 20% damage bonus of vampire abilities at night, city guards and fighter's/mage's guild NPCs will kill you on sight.

Vampire stages are reset to stage 1 on death. This is to prevent a continuous loop of death by sunlight.

"In direct sunlight" means outside during the day. if you are in a cave/house/dungeon/anything indoors during the day you will not be effected by the health regen debuff (or health degeneration at stage 4). Any abilities or passive effects that specify "at night" will only be active at night whether indoors or outdoors.

This accomplishes several things, It gives vampires a reason to feed, gives them a reason to stay out of direct sunlight.

Furthermore, upon first being seen by the fighter's or mage's guild NPCs as a vampire (or werewolf), you will be ejected from both guilds and your spent skillpoints will be refunded (but your rank will remain). Should you cure yourself, you can rejoin.


Secondly, the active skills need to be reworked to provide more utility for this playstyle AND more need to be added.


Drain essence and its morphs need the smallest change.

Drain essence - Immobilizes target for 3 seconds and deals [x] Magic Damage every 1 second, Player recovers 100/120/130/140% of the damage as Health and Stamina every 1 second, Cannot be applied to targets which have recently been drained or fed upon.

Consume essence - Immobilizes up to 3 targets in a cone in front of you for 3 seconds and deals [x] Magic Damage every 1 second, Player recovers 50/60/70/80% of the damage as Health and Stamina every 1 second, Cannot be applied to targets which have recently been drained or fed upon. damage is based on max health.

Extended drain - Immobilizes target for 3 seconds and deals [x] Magic Damage every 1 second, Player recovers 150% of the damage as Health and Stamina every 1 second, Cannot be applied to targets which have recently been drained or fed upon. has increased range 12m/13m/14m/15m.


Mist form requires a more in-depth change as it's mostly useless since the nerf and will now be used as a utility skill to escape the sun.

Mist form - While toggled, grants major expedition increasing movement speed by 40% and reflect all direct sunlight. Gain invulnerability to healing magic. Controlling effects disable this skill for 10 seconds instead of activating the controlling effect and immunity. disables magicka regeneration and drains 1% max magicka per second while toggled. Attacking or using other abilities disables this ability for 10 seconds.

Healing mist - While toggled, grants major expedition increasing movement speed by 40% and reflect all direct sunlight. Gain invulnerability to healing magic. Controlling effects disable this skill for 10 seconds instead of activating the controlling effect and immunity. disables magicka regeneration and drains 1% max magicka per second while toggled. Health regeneration is increased 30% while toggled. Attacking or using other abilities disables this ability for 10 seconds.

Elusive mist - While toggled, grants major expedition increasing movement speed by 40% and reflect all direct sunlight. Gain invulnerability to healing magic. Controlling effects disable this skill for 10 seconds instead of activating the controlling effect and immunity. disables magicka regeneration and drains 1% max magicka per second while toggled. Gain 20% dodge chance while toggled. Attacking or using other abilities disables this ability for 10 seconds.


Bat Swarm is both the vampire's best ability and it's curse. In previous versions, Bat Swarm's morph "Devouring Swarm" was immensely powerful and cost next to nothing if you stacked enough ultimate cost reduction. this caused non-vamps to rage and call down the nerf bat which got us vastly less cost reduction, 20% less damage, and 30% less healing. I've always thought that the ability was lackluster in general and just an aoe version of drain. I've revamped it entirely to work with the cost reduction AND make sure that you cant use 2 in a row for the same cost.

Bat Swarm - Transform into a swarm of bats and fly towards your target to bite them for x damage and heal yourself for 100/120/130/140% of the damage done. Using this ability will decrease your vampire stage by 1.

Devouring Swarm - Transform into a swarm of bats and fly towards your target to bite them for x damage and heal yourself for 150% of the damage done. Using this ability will decrease your vampire stage by 1. Bats also attack each enemy you pass through on the way to your target dealing y damage and healing you for 100/120/130/140% of the damage done.

Incapacitating Swarm - Transform into a swarm of bats and fly towards your target to bite them for x amount of damage and heal yourself for 150% of the damage done. Using this ability will decrease your vampire stage by 1. Bats continue to assault your target, dealing y damage and stunning them over 2 seconds.

-continued below-

stimpy986b14_ESO

Thirdly, passive abilities need to be reworked to provide additional benefits at night and allow for easier feeding.

Savage feeding should be replaced with Stealth Feeding

Stealth Feeding - when stealthed, grants a 20%/40% chance to remain undetected when feeding. this bonus is doubled at night.

Supernatural recovery should only grant 3%/5% magicka and stamina regeneration during the day and 7%/15% bonus at night.

Blood ritual is fine as is.

Undeath is currently broken as it often doesn't apply the higher damage reduction bonuses until you're already dead. IMO this needs to change to Increase damage mitigation by 15% and 30% at night while below 30%/50% health.

Unnatural resistance should be replaced with Unnatural Recovery

Unnatural Recovery - Increase health regeneration by 10% at night.

Dark Stalker Should grant decreased stealth radius instead of increased stealth movement speed.


Lastly, some new abilities should be added to flesh out the skill line and add some flavor to being a vampire.


Vampire's Sight - Grants minor prophecy and minor savagery, increasing weapon and spell critical chance by 3% while toggled but reduces max magicka and stamina by 5/4/3/2%. At night, grants major prophecy and major savagery, increasing weapon and spell critical chance by 10%. -visual effect would be yellow glowing eyes-

Lamae's Vision - Grants minor prophecy and minor savagery, increasing weapon and spell critical chance by 3% while toggled and increases max magicka and stamina by 2/3/4/5%. At night, grants major prophecy and major savagery, increasing weapon and spell critical chance by 10%. -visual effect would be white glowing eyes-

Blood Stalker's Sight - Grants minor prophecy, minor savagery and minor vitality, increasing weapon and spell critical chance by 3% and healing received by 8% while toggled. At night, grants major prophecy major savagery and minor vitality, increasing weapon and spell critical chance by 10% and healing received by 8%. -visual effect would be red glowing eyes-


Vampire's Seduction - Stun a target for 2 seconds and force it to ignore the next attack. Player targets are simply stunned.

Vampire's thrall - Stun a target for 2 seconds and force it to ignore the next attack. Player targets are simply stunned. If the target is an NPC and the attack is feeding, This skill becomes "Command Thrall" which when activated forces the target to follow you and assist you in battle until killed or toggled off.

Seductive Gaze - Stun a target for 2 seconds and force it to ignore all attacks for the next 10 seconds. Player targets are simply stunned.


Embrace of Shadows - Gain invisibility for 1 second. the duration is doubled at night.

Night's embrace - Gain invisibility for 1 second. the duration is tripled at night.

Night Runner - Gain invisibility for 1 second. the duration is doubled at night. grants minor expedition at night while this ability is slotted, increasing movement speed by 10%.

Varicite

*waits for @MornaBaine *

Sylveria_Relden

Actually if they just made Vampire use Vampire Lord form it would be on-par with Werewolf for cooldowns and abilities. Make all Active Skills only available from Vampire Lord and "voila" instant balance.

Don't like that? Well, werewolves have to use Ultimate and have a limited time they can even use their abilities in form.

*waits for more whining from vampires*

Eekshnerf

I don't even play a vampire but I'll say this much. The "in and out of direct sunlight" things are a no-go. I assume you're talking about being in shadows, unless you only mean being indoors in which case it would be really hard to play. Why wouldn't shadows work? Not everyone plays the game with shadows on because of their computers. Essentially everywhere in the game can be covered by a shadow at some point during the day, so that would have to change every what, minute? I'm no programmer but I feel like that'd be a *** ton of work and buggy as hell.

stimpy986b14_ESO

The "in direct sunlight" means outside during the daytime. The point of this is to give vampires downtime during the day in which they aren't significantly more powerful than mortals and if they haven't fed they're vastly weaker and an uptime at night in which they are significantly more powerful than mortals but about on par with Werewolves (without making them a cheap reskin).

Lava_Croft

I feel very much like a vampire every time I get hit by a piece of siege equipment with 'Fire' in its name.

Pausekey

I like it! For a single player game. ESO? Nah.

Shoot some fire into a group. You will find the vamps, trust me.

Also, denying the mages guild and fighters guild xp would be poor. They are more of an integral part in this game than the single ES titles. Would Vanus kill you after you release him from captivity in Coldharbour? Would all the Fighters and Mages guild members you rescue in that zone immediately turn around and burn you into a crisp? And then Intimidate and Persuade would need to be moved as well, seeing as how those have really nothing to do with the guilds, and can hinder quests from an RP perspective.

stimpy986b14_ESO

Pausekey wrote: »

I like it! For a single player game. ESO? Nah.

Shoot some fire into a group. You will find the vamps, trust me.

Also, denying the mages guild and fighters guild xp would be poor. They are more of an integral part in this game than the single ES titles. Would Vanus kill you after you release him from captivity in Coldharbour? Would all the Fighters and Mages guild members you rescue in that zone immediately turn around and burn you into a crisp? And then Intimidate and Persuade would need to be moved as well, seeing as how those have really nothing to do with the guilds, and can hinder quests from an RP perspective.

This is not about "finding vamps" this is about the experience of playing as a vampire being entirely underwhelming.

As far as the Coldharbour quests go, what happens in Coldharbour stays in Coldharbour. At that point, it's either work with the evil vampire who just happens to be the savior of tamriel or let Molag Bal destroy the world. That being said, it would be nice to have some additional dialogue as a vampire during these quests about them not trusting you or the gloves coming off once it's all over.

Lastly, the Intimidate and Persuade passives should be moved out of the fighter's and mage's guild skill lines anyway because they really don't belong even though they're really just a convenience at best and otherwise just a waste of SP.

frould

Sylveria_Relden wrote: »

Actually if they just made Vampire use Vampire Lord form it would be on-par with Werewolf for cooldowns and abilities. Make all Active Skills only available from Vampire Lord and "voila" instant balance.

Don't like that? Well, werewolves have to use Ultimate and have a limited time they can even use their abilities in form.

*waits for more whining from vampires*

That should be a Dawnguard quest line
where story a lot like Skyrim:Dawnguard
assume you were vampire. You have an option to join vampire forces or betray them and join Dawnguard
if you help vampire, The last quest reward:
You'r able to chose to become the Vampire Lord, replace current Vampire skill line with Vampire Lord Skill line (sure the ultimate should be Vampire Lord Transformation).

AlienSlof

I quite like the OP's ideas - and I play 3 vampires! I've played vampires in Elder Scrolls games since Morrowind, and I'm used to sunlight management!

I'd also like to add: Feeding causes health loss in victim. Take someone's blood, that's an injury to them, even if you don't drain them dry. Feeding should remove health.

Vaerth

Do this, the Bat Swarm change seems wonderful to me.

Problem is ZoS wont even care to do it, to much work for them to push something great like this. They will just mess with passives and tweak minor stats and call it a day.

stimpy986b14_ESO

How is it that the "Black Vampires" thread has remained on the front page but this one keeps dropping into the abyss?

jkemmery

Eekshnerf wrote: »

I don't even play a vampire but I'll say this much. The "in and out of direct sunlight" things are a no-go. I assume you're talking about being in shadows, unless you only mean being indoors in which case it would be really hard to play. Why wouldn't shadows work? Not everyone plays the game with shadows on because of their computers. Essentially everywhere in the game can be covered by a shadow at some point during the day, so that would have to change every what, minute? I'm no programmer but I feel like that'd be a *** ton of work and buggy as hell.

I'm a programmer, albeit not a game programmer and I would agree that trying to detect if a player was in sunlight vs shadow would be a difficult task to accomplish. It may seem like an obvious thing to a non-programmer, but that is because Bethesda and Zenimax have done such a wonderful job of making the game seem so "real".

I do agree the Vampire is a bit underpowered at this point, depending on your character. I tried it for a day or so before curing it. My character is a tank and the regen hit you take caused me to die quite a bit more often and I didn't want to forego overall progress just to progress the Vamp skill line. So I do think that it needs to be buffed up some. I agree with the idea of having the Vampire Lord ala Skyrim as an ultimate for Vampires.

stimpy986b14_ESO

why do so many people want Vampire to be a reskin of WW? Is it because WW is finally awesome now and vamp is terrible because of the nerfs?

Haven

stimpy986b14_ESO wrote: »

why do so many people want Vampire to be a reskin of WW? Is it because WW is finally awesome now and vamp is terrible because of the nerfs?

We don't want re-skins, we want re-works. The entire vampire skill line is entirely underwhelming and lackluster. None if it makes you feel like a vampire, just *** poor vague empty shell of what vampires in tamriel were and should be.

CP5

Just going to list off the things I noticed in the OP

1.) Love the fact that a vampire suggestion thread outlined the new skills they want rather than just providing a vague concept.

2.) The stages could become very broken at stage 4, we likely remember why vampires were heavily nerfed and the 60% reduction with 20% bonus damage would be insane. Also the sun damage concept would not work in an mmo setting.

3.) Go to the Grahtwood Fighters Guild, and unless they removed them there is a vampire, clear as day, clad in their armor standing with them. People think that the fighters guild are heroic banishers of the night but the only reason their skill line is dedicated to killing undead and deadra is because they were hired to fight Molag Bal. An there are no systems in place in game to remove guild skill trees and the content from those two guilds is in no way equal to the single quest that vampires and werewolves get along with each skill line.

4.) Skill Reworks

• Drain Essence - the 3 target cone an interesting idea that adds a nice amount of variety to the line but extended drain's range is insane. 28m in cryodiil becomes 36m, now if it was something like 15m I would see it as a bit more reasonable.
• Mist From - The restrictions on the skill but change to a toggle could make it a nice skill all around, and with healing mist only buffing health regen you make vampires want to stay stage 1 a bit more. A toggleable major expedition buff could be a bit crazy, but again with the provided restrictions I see it as, interesting.
• Bat Swarm - The changes here go a long way in making the skill less likely to be "over used" and I can see it becoming a valuable skill for people who don't use normal gap closers to gain some mobility. With your changes to the feeding stages and current ease of feeding make the feeding component of the skill make it helpful if someone wants to head to town. They would only need to hit an enemy with this then they would be able to go without being attacked.

5.) Passives

• Savage feeding - could be fun to try your luck on npcs in town or other players in cryodiil. Just like that change.
• Supernatural recovery - the stronger buff at night (with night only being 33% of the time) would be less useful, but would fit the lore of this type of vampire where they get stronger at night.
• Undeath - bugged out passives aren't good for anyone and having the passive function better seems common sense.
• Unnatural recovery - see supernatural recovery
• Dark Stalker - this change would likely generate some resistance but making vampires harder to detect would be interesting.

6.) New skills
*3 new abilities would give vampires 6 actives, like all other lines it would likely be best to limit the number of actives to 5

• Vampires sight - love the concept, adds both flavor and usability, something most vampire suggestion threads lack. A very well rounded skill I would bet people would be interested in using and a good alternative to the common toggles.
• Vampires seduction - interesting cc skill, would likely only find use in small scale pvp or solo pve but nice to have. However I don't agree with the idea of the Thrall morph. There is no way in game outside of scripted quest to get mobs to join you, the amount of coding that would go behind keeping the thrall with you would be a lot and the skill as a whole has "bugged" and "potential for exploit" written in the warning label right under "fun to use" and "interesting".
• Embrace of shadows - not liking the idea behind this skill since it just effectively turns every class into a pseudo nightblade. Its duration would need to be balanced with a massive cost (keeping in mind the potential 60% reduction), and night runner giving major expedition at night for being slotted is a very powerful buff. I think with the suggested changes to mist form, some very good ones at that, that this skill is redundant, threatens the meaning of other skills and could easily be seen as op. I would suggest dropping this skill if any so the vampire skill line, like all other combat skill trees, will only have 5 actives.

Overall, like he intent and ideas, just some wouldn't fit in the current game play environment but others would work in my opinion very well.

Varicite

stimpy986b14_ESO wrote: »

why do so many people want Vampire to be a reskin of WW? Is it because WW is finally awesome now and vamp is terrible because of the nerfs?

lol, no. It's because WW's are bitter at having always played second fiddle to Vamps, and while WW is better now, Vamp is still the better supernatural creature due to not losing access to ALL of your abilities.

It's pretty much a "make Vamps like WW, see how they like it" kinda deal, imo.

timidobserver

The sunlight thing was okay in the console game because you had direct control over the sunlight. You could make it so that you spent all of your time out at night, and that isn't the case in an MMO. I could meet you half way on the day/night thing and we could say that the day/night stuff only applies in stage 3/4. Other than the day/night stuff, everything else looks good or at least tolerable.

WraithAzraiel

Not a bad post, but I don't agree with the whole ejection from the Fighter's and Mage's Guild idea. Cuts off too many useful skills.

And I wouldn't have the sun cause damage at Stage 4 cause that'd just be a ridiculous pain.

Kill on sight I wouldn't mind, if it was ONLY for Stage 4. I try to keep my Vampire at Stage 1 as much as possible as it is for no real reason other than I strongly dislike the visuals for Stage 4.

Were there a Dawnguard and a Silver Hand skill lines, those I can see and understand being barred from, but there isn't anything that I know of in the lore of the Fighter's or Mage's Guild that would bar a reasonably civilized supernatural creature from being a member.


Obviously if a member is running around terrorizing the citizenry then sure, ejection would make sense but that could be said of any human mer or beastkin serial killer/career criminal.

WraithAzraiel

Sylveria_Relden wrote: »

Actually if they just made Vampire use Vampire Lord form it would be on-par with Werewolf for cooldowns and abilities. Make all Active Skills only available from Vampire Lord and "voila" instant balance.

Don't like that? Well, werewolves have to use Ultimate and have a limited time they can even use their abilities in form.

*waits for more whining from vampires*

Werewolves also are only effected by their weakness to poison while in Werewolf form. No extra poison damage when you're not wolf'd out.

Move along.

Endurance

if you want Vampires to be KOS from Tamriel completely.. this topic is the best way to do it!

- couldnt visit towns without being chased down and chain grabbed and killed by guards

- merchants dont even talk to you nor do business anymore (except for the enchanters in mage guild & fences)

- sunlight degenerates HP at a rapid speed (even though there is no day & night yet)

WraithAzraiel

DISREGARD.

Varicite

Endurance wrote: »

- sunlight degenerates HP at a rapid speed (even though there is no day & night yet)

There is, actually.

Daytime = 5 hours.
Nighttime = 1.5 hours.

If there was no day and night, there would be no Vamps or Werewolves in the game, as you need to be bitten during a New Moon for Vamps and Full Moon for Werewolves.

Without night in the game, the mobs wouldn't spawn, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Not only is there day & night, but there is an entire lunar cycle (about 8 days).

Ara_Valleria

VAMPS NEED TO TAKE x100 MORE DAMAGE TO FIRE !!!
INTRODUCE GARLIC AND HOLY CROSS TO CREATE MORE IMMERSION !!

/sarcasm?

Sylveria_Relden

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Sylveria_Relden wrote: »

Actually if they just made Vampire use Vampire Lord form it would be on-par with Werewolf for cooldowns and abilities. Make all Active Skills only available from Vampire Lord and "voila" instant balance.

Don't like that? Well, werewolves have to use Ultimate and have a limited time they can even use their abilities in form.

*waits for more whining from vampires*

Werewolves also are only effected by their weakness to poison while in Werewolf form. No extra poison damage when you're not wolf'd out.

Move along.

So in other words, we then make WW take poison damage in either form- and vamp fire damage in either form and we're even.

OK I accept that compromise... or did you have another complaint?

Varicite

Sylveria_Relden wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Sylveria_Relden wrote: »

Actually if they just made Vampire use Vampire Lord form it would be on-par with Werewolf for cooldowns and abilities. Make all Active Skills only available from Vampire Lord and "voila" instant balance.

Don't like that? Well, werewolves have to use Ultimate and have a limited time they can even use their abilities in form.

*waits for more whining from vampires*

Werewolves also are only effected by their weakness to poison while in Werewolf form. No extra poison damage when you're not wolf'd out.

Move along.

So in other words, we then make WW take poison damage in either form- and vamp fire damage in either form and we're even.

OK I accept that compromise... or did you have another complaint?

Does this mean that I can start slotting WW fear and Pounce on my normal bars now while using my DK Corrosive Armor, Wrecking Blow, and Brawler?

Sylveria_Relden

Varicite wrote: »

Sylveria_Relden wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Sylveria_Relden wrote: »

Actually if they just made Vampire use Vampire Lord form it would be on-par with Werewolf for cooldowns and abilities. Make all Active Skills only available from Vampire Lord and "voila" instant balance.

Don't like that? Well, werewolves have to use Ultimate and have a limited time they can even use their abilities in form.

*waits for more whining from vampires*

Werewolves also are only effected by their weakness to poison while in Werewolf form. No extra poison damage when you're not wolf'd out.

Move along.

So in other words, we then make WW take poison damage in either form- and vamp fire damage in either form and we're even.

OK I accept that compromise... or did you have another complaint?

Does this mean that I can start slotting WW fear and Pounce on my normal bars now while using my DK Corrosive Armor, Wrecking Blow, and Brawler?

Totally... why stop there, though? Why don't we make other abilities for WW available in human form, too- since the vamps think they have it so hard?

Varicite

Sylveria_Relden wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Sylveria_Relden wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Sylveria_Relden wrote: »

Actually if they just made Vampire use Vampire Lord form it would be on-par with Werewolf for cooldowns and abilities. Make all Active Skills only available from Vampire Lord and "voila" instant balance.

Don't like that? Well, werewolves have to use Ultimate and have a limited time they can even use their abilities in form.

*waits for more whining from vampires*

Werewolves also are only effected by their weakness to poison while in Werewolf form. No extra poison damage when you're not wolf'd out.

Move along.

So in other words, we then make WW take poison damage in either form- and vamp fire damage in either form and we're even.

OK I accept that compromise... or did you have another complaint?

Does this mean that I can start slotting WW fear and Pounce on my normal bars now while using my DK Corrosive Armor, Wrecking Blow, and Brawler?

Totally... why stop there, though? Why don't we make other abilities for WW available in human form, too- since the vamps think they have it so hard?

Oh man, I don't even know what I'd do as a WW w/ a SECOND SKILL BAR and abilities that I can actually pick and choose for myself while still retaining access to all of my cool WW tricks.

THE POWER!

Sure, I'll take poison damage in human form any day of the weak. Oh boo hoo, fire hurts me. Fire hurts everybody right now.

maryriv

I totally agree, they should be restored to their previous power but be shunned in fighteres/mages guild and all towns (of living).

Sylveria_Relden

Just tack on a time limit to be able to use vamp abilities (say.... 20 seconds, like WW form?) unless they feed, and I'll listen to the guards talk about how it smells like wet dog all day long.