Is the Champ Point System perpetuating the status quo?

drogon1

With the current enlightenment system, if you're a new player trying to catch up to someone with 200 champ points, each champ point you grind out will take 4x longer without enlightenment than with it (and you will not have enlightenment if you're trying to "catch up"). So for you to put a dent in that 200 champ point difference requires an extreme investment in time - you will have to play over 4x more than the person you're trying to catch up to. And this assumes that the 200 champ point player you're trying to catch up to - goes on holiday. Because the player you're trying to catch up to will most likely be perma-"enlightened" and earning champ points like, well, a champ.

So what is the problem with the current system? It is too easy to maintain the current status quo of champ point disparity, and hard to cross the distance. The primary culprit here is that each champ point - regardless of your overall champ point level - requires the same amount of xp.

The current champ point system (which I really like overall) is similar to the realm rank system in DAOC. However, in DAOC, each new realm point you earned required more xp; thus, moving from RR12 to RR13 was the equivalent in XP of, say, moving from RR1 to RR10. This "progressive" ranking system enabled the elite players to reach the crazy RR14 rank, while the majority hovered in the RR7-10 area.

Under the current champ system, there will be greater disparity due to a linear XP table. If you're 200 champ points ahead of someone, it will be easy to maintain that lead, and very hard for anyone to catch up.

Not a very "enlightened" system from my point of view. And it will dissuade new players from trying to catch up.

[Moderator Note: Edited title and comment per our rules on Inappropriate Content and Language]

AlnilamE

Did the DAOC system have diminishing returns, though?

Because when your new player has 200 CP and your old player has 400, the gap will be smaller than when they were at 0 and 200.

And it will be smaller still when they are 400 and 600.

michael_bimson

A cynic might say that this is encouragement to purchase the XP boost potions or a subscription. However as @AlnilamE rightfully points out, the diminishing returns make it much easier to catch up in terms of the actual bonus applied even if it is not easier to catch up in terms of the amount of champion points.

Vahrokh

AlnilamE wrote: »

Did the DAOC system have diminishing returns, though?

Because when your new player has 200 CP and your old player has 400, the gap will be smaller than when they were at 0 and 200.

And it will be smaller still when they are 400 and 600.

When the new 2017 player will enter the game, he'll face people with tremendous facemelting capabilities, along with raid boss-alike survivability. All those tiny and diminishing returns thingies end up stacking and forming some terrific power gap.

At the same time, today I am using the nice SP enlightment to reduce my grinding to 1/4 so I can take my time.

The 2017 player shall have thousands CPs disadvantage and if he wants to close the gap, he'll have to eat the enlightment and then proceed to excruciant perma-grinding.
At the same time, trial and PvP groups will demand minimum 300 / 1200 or whatever CPs to be able to join them.

I have played some older PvP games. Those with vertical progress would exponentially frustrate new players to extinction.
Those with horizontal progress were nicer. CPs are not an horizontal progress though. They are a diminishing returns vertical progress, but still a vertical progress. Also few mention it, but CP induced stats increases are mostly ignored or not even known but they exist AND are going to give an edge. When I'll be finished my current 30k mana will be 46.2k mana and my 18k health will be 27.7k. Now, increasing my mana from 24k to 30k gave me an huge sustained and spike DPS boost, imagine going to 46.2k! What new player won't be 1 shotted, or actually 0.5 shotted?

What will be their perspective? Years of being a bottom feeder, of frustration, of feeling inferior. These disparities are awful in real life enough that people join games to get away from them and... ESO just slams them back on their faces.
Which kind of incentive to keep playing to them, when they experience the same absurd injustices they face every day in life?

AlnilamE

If I ever join a trial group that asks me how many CP I have, I will tell them and then immediately reset them. They are no good if they are not assigned.

ragespell

Power gap will be taken care by expansions as in every mmorpg.

Merlin13KAGL

Vahrokh wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Did the DAOC system have diminishing returns, though?

Because when your new player has 200 CP and your old player has 400, the gap will be smaller than when they were at 0 and 200.

And it will be smaller still when they are 400 and 600.

When the new 2017 player will enter the game, he'll face people with tremendous facemelting capabilities, along with raid boss-alike survivability. All those tiny and diminishing returns thingies end up stacking and forming some terrific power gap.

At the same time, today I am using the nice SP enlightment to reduce my grinding to 1/4 so I can take my time.

The 2017 player shall have thousands CPs disadvantage and if he wants to close the gap, he'll have to eat the enlightment and then proceed to excruciant perma-grinding.
At the same time, trial and PvP groups will demand minimum 300 / 1200 or whatever CPs to be able to join them.

I have played some older PvP games. Those with vertical progress would exponentially frustrate new players to extinction.
Those with horizontal progress were nicer. CPs are not an horizontal progress though. They are a diminishing returns vertical progress, but still a vertical progress. Also few mention it, but CP induced stats increases are mostly ignored or not even known but they exist AND are going to give an edge. When I'll be finished my current 30k mana will be 46.2k mana and my 18k health will be 27.7k. Now, increasing my mana from 24k to 30k gave me an huge sustained and spike DPS boost, imagine going to 46.2k! What new player won't be 1 shotted, or actually 0.5 shotted?

What will be their perspective? Years of being a bottom feeder, of frustration, of feeling inferior. These disparities are awful in real life enough that people join games to get away from them and... ESO just slams them back on their faces.
Which kind of incentive to keep playing to them, when they experience the same absurd injustices they face every day in life?

@drogon1 , @Vahrokh , so what I'm getting out of this is your concern that someone 200 days (1 CP / enlightened day for 200 CP's) or further out, someone 2 years behind someone else will notice a gap?

How is this not expected to an extent?

Also, regarding PvP, you forget about battle leveling and the fact that some form of it may be implemented in regard to CP's when it gets to that point.

I know the argument here is that the other guy will also continue to earn CP's. The counter, though, is that each CP he earns will not have the same level of effect as the 'lower' guy's will.

Double the CP's in a single spot and you only receive about 50% of the benefit of all the CP's invested before it.

It's not like levels, where your other stats/skillpoints continue to grow. It's much lesser than that in the grand scheme of things.

Of course they will add up. Of course, they will make a difference.

At least this way there is something to work towards.

We're not even to that point yet. Let's get there first before concerning ourselves with balance issues that don't yet exist.l

wrlifeboil

They are probably trying to last out this year and next to maintain critical mass. Worrying about or planning for catch up mechanics is somewhere over in the distant horizon I'd guess.

Obscure

I'm at 90 champion points roughly. I know people at near 190. The difference between us will only grow, so says the merciless rule of vertical progression.

I see only disaster in this design. No new content until June will disenfranchise players who don't want to grind every day and thus won't keep up with the vertical progression of those who do. Even when new content is added it will not be as rewarding as just grinding out points, perpetuating the progression gap between players who want to enjoy the game and players who exclusively want to be at the top, thus players won't even care about the content. Progression > Content undermines the purpose of having content. The only thing that matters is an effin' number and how big that number gets from doing things, regardless of what those things are. If making out with an Ogrum's ass gave the best XP in the game, guess what players would be doing in mass?

The only thing to hope for is the champ point grinders to get burnt out and quit if I ever hope to catch up. Otherwise I must accept I will be inferior to them, and I'm pretty well along, there is no hope for new players at all.

Vahrokh

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Did the DAOC system have diminishing returns, though?

Because when your new player has 200 CP and your old player has 400, the gap will be smaller than when they were at 0 and 200.

And it will be smaller still when they are 400 and 600.

When the new 2017 player will enter the game, he'll face people with tremendous facemelting capabilities, along with raid boss-alike survivability. All those tiny and diminishing returns thingies end up stacking and forming some terrific power gap.

At the same time, today I am using the nice SP enlightment to reduce my grinding to 1/4 so I can take my time.

The 2017 player shall have thousands CPs disadvantage and if he wants to close the gap, he'll have to eat the enlightment and then proceed to excruciant perma-grinding.
At the same time, trial and PvP groups will demand minimum 300 / 1200 or whatever CPs to be able to join them.

I have played some older PvP games. Those with vertical progress would exponentially frustrate new players to extinction.
Those with horizontal progress were nicer. CPs are not an horizontal progress though. They are a diminishing returns vertical progress, but still a vertical progress. Also few mention it, but CP induced stats increases are mostly ignored or not even known but they exist AND are going to give an edge. When I'll be finished my current 30k mana will be 46.2k mana and my 18k health will be 27.7k. Now, increasing my mana from 24k to 30k gave me an huge sustained and spike DPS boost, imagine going to 46.2k! What new player won't be 1 shotted, or actually 0.5 shotted?

What will be their perspective? Years of being a bottom feeder, of frustration, of feeling inferior. These disparities are awful in real life enough that people join games to get away from them and... ESO just slams them back on their faces.
Which kind of incentive to keep playing to them, when they experience the same absurd injustices they face every day in life?

@drogon1 , @Vahrokh , so what I'm getting out of this is your concern that someone 200 days (1 CP / enlightened day for 200 CP's) or further out, someone 2 years behind someone else will notice a gap?

How is this not expected to an extent?

Also, regarding PvP, you forget about battle leveling and the fact that some form of it may be implemented in regard to CP's when it gets to that point.

I know the argument here is that the other guy will also continue to earn CP's. The counter, though, is that each CP he earns will not have the same level of effect as the 'lower' guy's will.

Double the CP's in a single spot and you only receive about 50% of the benefit of all the CP's invested before it.

It's to be expected indeed. However it's not conductive to a good MMO players retention. Other MMOs have devised all sorts of ways (the easiest being "gear reset" adding 5-10 new levels) that allow a new player to catch up and be on the same power level of anybody else at each new expansion.

On the contrary, other MMOs that did not have such mechanism, ended up closing down, because new players were put against unwinnable odds.

The second portion (diminishing returns) puts us in something like the famous Zeno's Paradox, where athletic Achilles can never only manage to forever keep getting closer to a running turle without being able to pass it.

Merlin13KAGL

Vahrokh wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Did the DAOC system have diminishing returns, though?

Because when your new player has 200 CP and your old player has 400, the gap will be smaller than when they were at 0 and 200.

And it will be smaller still when they are 400 and 600.

When the new 2017 player will enter the game, he'll face people with tremendous facemelting capabilities, along with raid boss-alike survivability. All those tiny and diminishing returns thingies end up stacking and forming some terrific power gap.

At the same time, today I am using the nice SP enlightment to reduce my grinding to 1/4 so I can take my time.

The 2017 player shall have thousands CPs disadvantage and if he wants to close the gap, he'll have to eat the enlightment and then proceed to excruciant perma-grinding.
At the same time, trial and PvP groups will demand minimum 300 / 1200 or whatever CPs to be able to join them.

I have played some older PvP games. Those with vertical progress would exponentially frustrate new players to extinction.
Those with horizontal progress were nicer. CPs are not an horizontal progress though. They are a diminishing returns vertical progress, but still a vertical progress. Also few mention it, but CP induced stats increases are mostly ignored or not even known but they exist AND are going to give an edge. When I'll be finished my current 30k mana will be 46.2k mana and my 18k health will be 27.7k. Now, increasing my mana from 24k to 30k gave me an huge sustained and spike DPS boost, imagine going to 46.2k! What new player won't be 1 shotted, or actually 0.5 shotted?

What will be their perspective? Years of being a bottom feeder, of frustration, of feeling inferior. These disparities are awful in real life enough that people join games to get away from them and... ESO just slams them back on their faces.
Which kind of incentive to keep playing to them, when they experience the same absurd injustices they face every day in life?

@drogon1 , @Vahrokh , so what I'm getting out of this is your concern that someone 200 days (1 CP / enlightened day for 200 CP's) or further out, someone 2 years behind someone else will notice a gap?

How is this not expected to an extent?

Also, regarding PvP, you forget about battle leveling and the fact that some form of it may be implemented in regard to CP's when it gets to that point.

I know the argument here is that the other guy will also continue to earn CP's. The counter, though, is that each CP he earns will not have the same level of effect as the 'lower' guy's will.

Double the CP's in a single spot and you only receive about 50% of the benefit of all the CP's invested before it.

It's to be expected indeed. However it's not conductive to a good MMO players retention. Other MMOs have devised all sorts of ways (the easiest being "gear reset" adding 5-10 new levels) that allow a new player to catch up and be on the same power level of anybody else at each new expansion.

On the contrary, other MMOs that did not have such mechanism, ended up closing down, because new players were put against unwinnable odds.

The second portion (diminishing returns) puts us in something like the famous Zeno's Paradox, where athletic Achilles can never only manage to forever keep getting closer to a running turle without being able to pass it.

Thank God for calculus, huh? (That's one of my personal favorites, btw)

I suspect ZoS will end up dealing with this a couple different ways. First, I expect gear adjustments/battle leveling (CP's includeded) or alternate campaigns (1000CP+ campaigns, etc).

Second, I expect there will be attrition both ways. If they don't provide alternatives both ways, I suspect people with 3000 CP's will eventually tire of facerolling everything and play less or move along.

It's a catch 22 either way. Long-timers are gonna get upset because a mechanism now enabled a relatively new person to come close to their effectiveness. New types are gonna need some method to be viable compared to the now-hard cores.

Personally, I think they're content with the field dressing that is the Champion system. I doubt they've concerned themselves with what they're gonna do 'tomorrow.'

I share much of your concern with the future state of the game, in that regard.

drogon1

I did not realize that there are diminishing returns to champ points. This would make all the difference if the diminishing part were significant enough. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

AlnilamE

drogon1 wrote: »

I did not realize that there are diminishing returns to champ points. This would make all the difference if the diminishing part were significant enough. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Try it out. IIRC, the first point you put into any star gives you a 1% increase, the second .9%. Or maybe it starts at 2% and then goes down to 1.9%? I'm not in game right now.

Vahrokh wrote: »

The second portion (diminishing returns) puts us in something like the famous Zeno's Paradox, where athletic Achilles can never only manage to forever keep getting closer to a running turle without being able to pass it.

I will give you this in response:

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/ZenosParadoxes.html

The dichotomy paradox leads to the following mathematical joke. A mathematician, a physicist and an engineer were asked to answer the following question. A group of boys are lined up on one wall of a dance hall, and an equal number of girls are lined up on the opposite wall. Both groups are then instructed to advance toward each other by one quarter the distance separating them every ten seconds (i.e., if they are distance apart at time 0, they are at , at , at , and so on.) When do they meet at the center of the dance hall? The mathematician said they would never actually meet because the series is infinite. The physicist said they would meet when time equals infinity. The engineer said that within one minute they would be close enough for all practical purposes.

Edit: Messed up quotes

henryabelarwb17_ESO

drogon1 wrote: »

I did not realize that there are diminishing returns to champ points. This would make all the difference if the diminishing part were significant enough. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

After about 30 points in any single passive each point increases it by about 0.1% which is already negligible... imagine when you invest more...

Eliteseraph

There definitely needs to be a better form of catching up CP than enlightenment. And I don't mean simply chugging exp pots.