Players Need More Control Over Justice System Choices

starkerealm

wraith808 wrote: »

Majic wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze how strenuously some people will argue against making improvements to the game.

I know why that's the case, but still, it never ceases to amaze me.

It's not about arguing against improvements. There are limited development resources, and suggesting an add-on as a possible option until such a time that they have less to worry about at the time, and de-prioritizing something that already has a few options to get around just makes sense.

I won't go into the options- as they've been beaten into the ground, from changes in settings, add-ons, and changes in habits. But they are there, and they do work- even for things that are sitting out in the open and doors/lockboxes.

It never ceases to amaze me how you can give someone a way to get around a problem, and because it doesn't come in the form that they want it to, they dismiss it out of hand.

What never ceases to amaze me are the number of people on these forums that will gleefully say, "no, that isn't a real thing because I haven't seen it personally.

Like the bank bug back at launch. "Well, I didn't see it, so it doesn't happen. Shut up and let them get back to fixing the bugs that affect me." Or, of course, the one that almost got me to leave the game, rapid item deterioration. To which the response was, "well, I'm not seeing it, so it must not be a real thing."

And, here we are again. "I haven't ever been in a situation where an NPC was flanked by owned items, so it must not be a thing, quick, fix the lag in Cyrodiil." Or, you know, whatever.

Fleshreaper

Majic wrote: »

Thankfully, as with so many things, an addon is already being developed, but please consider not forcing us to install an addon simply to avoid being on edge and risking a fine every time we want to talk to a merchant standing in a crowd of players and end up accidentally pilfering a bottle behind them when they or the third-person view shifts.

I don't know. I think the addon options is perfectly acceptable. It does exactly what an addon is supposed to do. The game is playable without the addon but it makes one aspect simpler.

CodexMMO

Adoryn wrote: »

Ashigaru wrote: »

You can opt out, there is a option to not attack npc's or such in options and the same for stealing, you can turn the auto loot off for stolen items.

Good to know! Thanks! I did not see this in options but I'll check again later when servers are back up.

I didn't know we could turn off attacking NPCs in the options either. Thank you for the info guys.

starkerealm

Fleshreaper wrote: »

Majic wrote: »

Thankfully, as with so many things, an addon is already being developed, but please consider not forcing us to install an addon simply to avoid being on edge and risking a fine every time we want to talk to a merchant standing in a crowd of players and end up accidentally pilfering a bottle behind them when they or the third-person view shifts.

I don't know. I think the addon options is perfectly acceptable. It does exactly what an addon is supposed to do. The game is playable without the addon but it makes one aspect simpler.

There are two problems with the addon solution. 1) It won't be available to console players. 2) It doesn't really benefit new players.

This is the kind of thing where, once you know it's there, it's a lot easier to avoid, but until you know that, you're at risk. For a new player it's pretty easy to run into fights in Daggerfall (the city itself) and walk out with a bounty and hostile guards. For them, hunting for an addon isn't really a legitimate answer.

Actually, one of the things that blew my mind was when a mod suggested a second weapon bar workaround for the healing someone with a bounty issue, when we were talking about new players. Specifically the kinds of people who wouldn't know to look for a workaround. Including, in this case, an addon. It's not everyone's first impulse.

I'll say what I've said several times before. There should be a lockout for theft, just like the one for assault, and then there should either be another lockout on healing fugitives or it should be bundled with the assault lockout. Finally, these really need to default to on. Then let the quests that force you to break into someone's house be the introduction to the justice system.

But, don't make immortal guards be someone's first experience with the system, especially when they're inclined to "defend" themselves from them raising their bounty out of reach. I keep remembering the new players at level 4 or 5 asking about how to pay of a 3k bounty.

Fleshreaper

Avrith wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Avrith wrote: »

The potential for abuse of an "opt-out" toggle is most likely at the heart of developer concerns to be honest. It's one thing to give a player the option to turn on/off their ability to target "neutral" NPCs, but it's another altogether to be able to bypass, at will, an entire element of the game. I can understand the concern, but I can't say that it carries a lot of weight as it is an easily handled design hurdle.

I'm glad you think that, because no one is asking for that. The only people suggesting an op out toggle are users who want to say that this is unfeasible. What's being suggested over and over is that taking owned items should be something that can be locked out, exactly the same way the targeting "innocents" lockout applies. One that, if turned on, doesn't even see an interact prompt when hovering over owned items.

And then someone comes along, props up their straw man and says, "lolz you just want to farm motifs again." No, I don't. That's not what this discussion has been about.

If you can toggle off the ability to take an owned item, and you can toggle off the ability to attack neutral NPCs you are effectively negating any unlawful activity your character could partake in (at this time). Thus, you are in fact effectively toggling off the entire Justice system for that character as it exists currently. That would be fine, but being able to toggle back and forth at-will would not be due to the abuse I described in my post.

The "straw man" argument regarding motifs is a weak one, but only due to the specific example. People would like to be able to obtain much sought-after items with impunity again, but most people are reasonable enough to not have that as a primary motivator for Justice changes. However, use the example from my prior post and swap "Imperial Motif" with a rare recipe the player had been hunting, or even an item with a trait they really needed.

The abuse doesn't come from a specific item, but the nature of the "on again/off again" participation in the system people would fall into. It's easy to say "this character doesn't steal", but will that hold up when that item you really want shows up in a desk or that provisioning ingredient you're missing is sitting on a counter right there? Most likely not because this is just a game and if you can effectively bypass Justice by a) hiding and b) toggling on/off your ability to steal.. well most people will grab what they need/want if there's no risk or consequence.

People say they don't want to be able to accidentally steal and I can completely understand and agree with that. I can even understand and support that people change their mind. So, give the ability to be safe and the ability to be risky, but ensure that the player has to live with the choice and not just use it to bypass game mechanics.

You are completely missing the idea of the "switch option" if the switch is on so you can't steal. All containers and items that are marked as own are not accessible. Meaning that if the switch is on, you don't even get the "E" to enter act with that item.

starkerealm

Fleshreaper wrote: »

Every major town in Skyrim had a house you could buy and upgrade after you completed the quests in that city.

Really minor nitpick: In the base game there are only 5 purchasable houses. Off the top of my head I think that's Markarth, Windhelm, Solitude, Riften and Whiterun. Hearthfire adds 3 plots of land that can be purchased outside of Falkreath, Morthal (really it's near Solitude), and Dawnstar (though it's just slightly north of Whiterun). It's not possible to buy a house in Winterhold without mods.

Fleshreaper

starkerealm wrote: »

Really minor nitpick: In the base game there are only 5 purchasable houses. Off the top of my head I think that's Markarth, Windhelm, Solitude, Riften and Whiterun. Hearthfire adds 3 plots of land that can be purchased outside of Falkreath, Morthal (really it's near Solitude), and Dawnstar (though it's just slightly north of Whiterun). It's not possible to buy a house in Winterhold without mods.

All I said was Skyrim had purchasable house in game at major cities. Those 5 cities were the major cities, I was speaking of.

starkerealm

Fleshreaper wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Really minor nitpick: In the base game there are only 5 purchasable houses. Off the top of my head I think that's Markarth, Windhelm, Solitude, Riften and Whiterun. Hearthfire adds 3 plots of land that can be purchased outside of Falkreath, Morthal (really it's near Solitude), and Dawnstar (though it's just slightly north of Whiterun). It's not possible to buy a house in Winterhold without mods.

All I said was Skyrim had purchasable house in game at major cities. Those 5 cities were the major cities, I was speaking of.

But Winterhold was the capital before... wait, Winterhold was the capital in the Second Era. Why aren't we up there instead of in Eastmarch?

Fleshreaper

starkerealm wrote: »

There are two problems with the addon solution. 1) It won't be available to console players. 2) It doesn't really benefit new players.

I agree, I think it should be in game and not an addon. I have not downloaded the addon yet, to check it out. I am not a fan of ESO going to console, so I will keep my opinions about that to myself.

starkerealm

Fleshreaper wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

There are two problems with the addon solution. 1) It won't be available to console players. 2) It doesn't really benefit new players.

I agree, I think it should be in game and not an addon. I have not downloaded the addon yet, to check it out. I am not a fan of ESO going to console, so I will keep my opinions about that to myself.

At the simplest level... it's a good thing. More people playing does mean more money flowing into the game, more players, and more incentive to improve, and release new content.

On the other hand, it also means maintaining 3 builds, in rough parity with each other. And, of course, we don't actually see the other players.

For the purposes of the justice system, though: I am worried about people buying the game, getting burned, and then telling their friends to avoid it because of how it slagged their character.

I'd almost be inclined to agree with the straw man that Nerevarine keeps setting up about entitled kids... but, first impressions are very important, and that applies to both the PC and console players.

Fleshreaper

starkerealm wrote: »

But Winterhold was the capital before... wait, Winterhold was the capital in the Second Era. Why aren't we up there instead of in Eastmarch?

New quest area to come later. /crossingmyfingers

Fleshreaper

starkerealm wrote: »

I'd almost be inclined to agree with the straw man that Nerevarine keeps setting up about entitled kids... but, first impressions are very important, and that applies to both the PC and console players.

I agree more players in the game is better for the game but. And this is kind of where I struggle. TES, is a long running title that has a huge fan base. I worry that with the move to console, there will be a surge of money into the title. While this is good on the top side. It sets the expectations, so that when the consolers move on, it's going to look devastating and upper management will panic and make another bad decision. The next step is to try to keep up with the consolers whims, leaving little time for a PC port until the PC port gets the ax all together.

starkerealm

Fleshreaper wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

I'd almost be inclined to agree with the straw man that Nerevarine keeps setting up about entitled kids... but, first impressions are very important, and that applies to both the PC and console players.

I agree more players in the game is better for the game but. And this is kind of where I struggle. TES, is a long running title that has a huge fan base. I worry that with the move to console, there will be a surge of money into the title. While this is good on the top side. It sets the expectations, so that when the consolers move on, it's going to look devastating and upper management will panic and make another bad decision. The next step is to try to keep up with the consolers whims, leaving little time for a PC port until the PC port gets the ax all together.

If this were EA, I'd agree. But, this is Bethesda/Zenimax we're talking about. The TES games have had ridiculously long tails on PC because of their respective modding scenes, and it's something that hasn't been shared (so far as I know) with the console releases.

So, even if the console releases do tank, I doubt it would kill the PC title. Again, I still subscribe to the theory that the b2p transition was fueled more by Microsoft refusing to give an XBL concession to Bethesda than any "poor retention argument."

wraith808

starkerealm wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Majic wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze how strenuously some people will argue against making improvements to the game.

I know why that's the case, but still, it never ceases to amaze me.

It's not about arguing against improvements. There are limited development resources, and suggesting an add-on as a possible option until such a time that they have less to worry about at the time, and de-prioritizing something that already has a few options to get around just makes sense.

I won't go into the options- as they've been beaten into the ground, from changes in settings, add-ons, and changes in habits. But they are there, and they do work- even for things that are sitting out in the open and doors/lockboxes.

It never ceases to amaze me how you can give someone a way to get around a problem, and because it doesn't come in the form that they want it to, they dismiss it out of hand.

What never ceases to amaze me are the number of people on these forums that will gleefully say, "no, that isn't a real thing because I haven't seen it personally.

Like the bank bug back at launch. "Well, I didn't see it, so it doesn't happen. Shut up and let them get back to fixing the bugs that affect me." Or, of course, the one that almost got me to leave the game, rapid item deterioration. To which the response was, "well, I'm not seeing it, so it must not be a real thing."

And, here we are again. "I haven't ever been in a situation where an NPC was flanked by owned items, so it must not be a thing, quick, fix the lag in Cyrodiil." Or, you know, whatever.

There are those people. There are also those that try to help with the problem. Those two are two different animals. But the responses are being lumped into the same category.

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info943-NoAccidentalStealing.html

It's a real and available solution. You'll of course come back with but what about the poor consoles. That's a few months out, and they can prioritize it before then- and we don't know if they will or not. As of right now, it's a viable solution for everyone currently in the game.

Excuses as to why it's not a valid solution right now based on future unknown factors is not a valid reason to dismiss a solution given, developed, and placed before you.

rayeab16_ESO

because every time one of you guys says 'just use this add on' you are redirecting them from the issue.

its valid because the more players notice this and bring to their attention that this is going to cause problems for us AND the console players, the more time they have to come up with an in game version and not an add on.

just because we pc users *can* use an add on, does not mean that we *have* to use it, just because it is there. we do not *want* to use an add on, we want its functionality (or something equivelent) to be added into the game. not just because we dont want to have to use add ons (and lets face it. its too often the case you start using one here, and the makers dumps the game and you have to stop using it) we shouldnt have to use them if we dont want to.

but also consoles will not be allowed to use add ons. so the more we remind the devs ect to fix this, the easier it will be for the console players not to fal into the pitfalls we have allready.
it needs fixing in game. not with some add on that console users will not be allowed to use.

starkerealm

wraith808 wrote: »

There are those people. There are also those that try to help with the problem. Those two are two different animals. But the responses are being lumped into the same category.

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info943-NoAccidentalStealing.html

It's a real and available solution. You'll of course come back with but what about the poor consoles. That's a few months out, and they can prioritize it before then- and we don't know if they will or not. As of right now, it's a viable solution for everyone currently in the game.

Excuses as to why it's not a valid solution right now based on future unknown factors is not a valid reason to dismiss a solution given, developed, and placed before you.

You're confusing "solution" for a "workaround." I trust you understand the difference. And, of course, it only works for people who have a functional understanding of the game, and are comfortable with using addons. These are not the same people I see in Stonefalls zone every day asking how to get the guards from killing them, or asking for 3k to pay off their bounty. (Or at least every day I've spent any serious time in a starter zone.)

For the newbies... that is to say the people most likely to simply say, "shank this game, I'm out," that's not a solution.

starkerealm

rayeab16_ESO wrote: »

because every time one of you guys says 'just use this add on' you are redirecting them from the issue.

More than that; with ESO saying, "use this addon" is almost in the range of saying, "yeah, this system doesn't work right, here's a jury-rigged patch up job to hold it together for a bit."

wraith808

rayeab16_ESO wrote: »

because every time one of you guys says 'just use this add on' you are redirecting them from the issue.

its valid because the more players notice this and bring to their attention that this is going to cause problems for us AND the console players, the more time they have to come up with an in game version and not an add on.

just because we pc users *can* use an add on, does not mean that we *have* to use it, just because it is there. we do not *want* to use an add on, we want its functionality (or something equivelent) to be added into the game. not just because we dont want to have to use add ons (and lets face it. its too often the case you start using one here, and the makers dumps the game and you have to stop using it) we shouldnt have to use them if we dont want to.

but also consoles will not be allowed to use add ons. so the more we remind the devs ect to fix this, the easier it will be for the console players not to fal into the pitfalls we have allready.
it needs fixing in game. not with some add on that console users will not be allowed to use.

How do you know it's not on the radar already? You don't. And you continue to spurn the idea of using an add-on. Yes, sure- make the suggestion. It's already been made several times. Then, instead of continually making new threads and bumping new threads and increasing the signal to noise ratio, use the add on. There's a line between suggesting and griping, and its important to see the distinction, or it just becomes a lot of noise.

Ley

starkerealm wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

Somehow, I've managed to get around in game without accidentally attacking anyone or stealing anything; it's amazing I know.

Not amazing. Just marginally fortunate.

Ley wrote: »

I think the system is fine and have a hard time understanding why some players have such a difficult time with it.

That's because it hasn't affected you yet. It'll come. Don't worry. I'd say, "on that day, I'd like to be there when it does," but, it'd be a lie. I really don't care that much. My bet would be you forget to turn on the innocent safety for a character and then accidentally slaughter an ally during a quest. But, you know, it could be a misclick too, those happen. But, I'm also not overly interested in being there the day you accidentally post a typo.

Ley wrote: »

It's completely optional and takes a minimal effort to veer away from, for those who aren't interested.

"Completely optional" you say? Yes. Please, tell me how you finished the quests in Koglen Village, or Ebonheart. Tell me about how you identified the thief in Marbruk... without engaging in the justice system that is completely optional. Please tell me how, you moved on to Glenumbra Gold under the "completely optional" system.

Ley wrote: »

People who petition to have the justice system removed because they can't pay attention to the actions they commit in game, are being petty and selfish.

Funny... I've always thought the, "it doesn't affect me personally so it must not be a real problem" crowd were the selfish ones.

This isn't really a topic I'm inclined to argue much about, I don't really participate in the justice system. I will address your points though.

When it does happen and you're right, it's bound to happen eventually. I can live with a small gold fine once in a blue moon. I assume we agree that it would likely be a small fine, because it is quite hard to accidentally go on a murdering spree and really rack up the bounty. New players being the exception and I agree that the harming npc option should be toggled off by default specifically for new players.

A few quests with very minor crimes that you need to commit are far from forcing a player to live the life of a criminal. I'm sure anyone who cares about immersion and morality in game, is faced with decision in game sometimes that they do not completely agree with. I remain firm in my opinion that participating in the justice system is optional and a I would be disappointed, if there weren't any quests in the game that used the system.

Lastly, I didn't mean by my last comment that the system couldn't be improved by toggling off the options to steal or heal criminals. Just that I don't think that the system should be removed completely from the game. I maintain the opinion that it is selfish for someone to suggest that they remove it entirely from the game but would be completely ok/indifferent with them implementing toggles to make it easier to avoid a miss-click. In other words, I'm fine with the way the justice system currently is and would be fine if they added the option to toggle off theft and healing but not fine with them removing the system altogether.

starkerealm

wraith808 wrote: »

How do you know it's not on the radar already?

Developer responses.

wraith808 wrote: »

You don't.

No, actually I do know. If you'd looked a little earlier in this thread you'd see the "working as intended" bit from... whoever it was. And of course there was Gina saying roughly the same thing about the healing bounty in an earlier thread.

wraith808 wrote: »

And you continue to spurn the idea of using an add-on.

Because it's not a panacea for all the world's ills.

wraith808 wrote: »

Yes, sure- make the suggestion.

Cool, will do.

wraith808 wrote: »

It's already been made several times.

Then it will be made several more, I'm sure.

wraith808 wrote: »

Then, instead of continually making new threads and bumping new threads and increasing the signal to noise ratio, use the add on.

Yeah, but the addon doesn't seem to reduce the number of people in zone complaining about how the guards keep murdering them over and over. You've got an addon for that?

wraith808 wrote: »

There's a line between suggesting and griping, and its important to see the distinction, or it just becomes a lot of noise.

So, you're contributing to the noise because... what? You don't want it fixed? I mean, I guess with the right outlook it could be amusing. Not the outlook I usually take, but, hey, to each their own, right?

starkerealm

Ley wrote: »

Just that I don't think that the system should be removed completely from the game.

Yeah, no, outside of a few straw man scarecrows, no one's arguing to remove it from the game. This is just about not pitching newbies into the deep end up front without warning.

EDIT: Well, and removing the worry that if we're in a hurry we won't accidentally... yes, actually accidentally, without the scare quotes, snag something off a bench or guild kiosk.

Islyn

Yeah with all the other junk now I would say remove the 0 value armour and weapons. Also - soo many lockpicks.

Fleshreaper

starkerealm wrote: »

If this were EA, I'd agree. But, this is Bethesda/Zenimax we're talking about. The TES games have had ridiculously long tails on PC because of their respective modding scenes, and it's something that hasn't been shared (so far as I know) with the console releases.

So, even if the console releases do tank, I doubt it would kill the PC title. Again, I still subscribe to the theory that the b2p transition was fueled more by Microsoft refusing to give an XBL concession to Bethesda than any "poor retention argument."

I'm sure neither EA or Rockstar set out to screw over their PC fans. Both had strong PC titles with lots of fans that put them where they are and both all but ignore their PC fans...... Anyway.

I love the Justice System and on my NB, I play the Justice System. I'm in favor a giving players options. As far as new players go, they may be new to the game but I would be willing to bet there are very few who have not played MMOs, RPG, or MMORPGs. So most, not all, would already used to addons. Console players would be different.

Speaking of console players, why aren't console players allowed to use addons. I don't own a console so, I am asking a question.

krashwire_ESO

I love seeing people fleeing from guards, particularly those who accidentally stole something or healed a fugitive! I would hope they remove the toggle not make the game more idiot proof. You should be punished for your mistakes (not that dying or the meager fines are really much of a punishment), not given newbie ways to avoid consequences.

Yes, I have accidentally murdered people and been hunted by guards for it on characters I am playing as upstanding. So what, the death hardly matters. The fines are almost nothing. You lose at most a moment or two of your time and a pittance of gold. For the character I am playing as a thief I LOVE the press your luck feel as I build up a bag for full of loot.

If your issue is that you are accidentally stealing, turn off auto loot and stop sucking at basic controls. If your issue is accidental assault, again stop sucking at basic controls. No one forced you to attack the guard. If its from healing in the city and you healed a fugitive, GOOD! You should be punished if you did not pay enough attention to who you are healing and why. Maybe quit running around spamming Regen? You're just being annoying anyhow.

I say bring on more severe penalties ZOS! I want to see those who heal fugitives jailed for a short time and without a safety blanket of a UI setting or mod that protects them from critical thinking failures! Newbies should have to learn the hard way just like everyone else, it makes for much better verisimilitude.

starkerealm

Fleshreaper wrote: »

Speaking of console players, why aren't console players allowed to use addons. I don't own a console so, I am asking a question.

Because the XB and PS are closed campuses... basically.

My vague recollection is; You'd need to have the addon certified by Microsoft or Sony to stick it on their console. That is not cheap. I think the number was something like 40-100k USD, last time I saw it quoted. (I could be way off base with those numbers), but, regardless were not talking about the kind of money a modder can toss at a game over a hobby.

On top of that, you'd have to recertify it for each update. IIRC on both systems your first update is free, but after that you're paying for a recertification. Well, technically paying to certify the patch... same result, though.

It's quite possible that MMOs have some special arrangement there. I'm just not sure.

Sorry, I'm pretty sketchy on the details with this, because we're talking about an industry that doesn't like having information in general circulation. But, the short version is, because they can't get them.

Fleshreaper

starkerealm wrote: »

Fleshreaper wrote: »

Speaking of console players, why aren't console players allowed to use addons. I don't own a console so, I am asking a question.

Because the XB and PS are closed campuses... basically.

My vague recollection is; You'd need to have the addon certified by Microsoft or Sony to stick it on their console. That is not cheap. I think the number was something like 40-100k USD, last time I saw it quoted. (I could be way off base with those numbers), but, regardless were not talking about the kind of money a modder can toss at a game over a hobby.

On top of that, you'd have to recertify it for each update. IIRC on both systems your first update is free, but after that you're paying for a recertification. Well, technically paying to certify the patch... same result, though.

It's quite possible that MMOs have some special arrangement there. I'm just not sure.

Sorry, I'm pretty sketchy on the details with this, because we're talking about an industry that doesn't like having information in general circulation. But, the short version is, because they can't get them.

IMO that's more than enough of a reason to keep it off console, along with the long list of other reason. If Microsoft and Sony don't want to play ball, fine.

Avrith

/soapbox
TL;DR: The developers are not going to implement a system that turns off world interaction. If you want to give ideas to improve justice to reduce/remove risks that's great and there is certainly a call for that. True accidental stealing is an issue that needs to be addressed, but many people are presenting unfeasible or unhelpful arguments. Work within the boundaries the developers have hinted at and you're far more likely to get a result you like.

Now, for those with a slightly longer attention span...

It's amazing how some of the pro-safety crowd is willing to even attack those who are trying to help their argument. The only people safe from condescending and argumentative replies are those who stick to 100% agreement comments.

You ignore "straw man" arguments even when they are real examples of potential abuse that the developers have to consider. Were these scenarios, as I used in my example, direct depictions of comments or desires presented in this or similar threads? Most likely not. They are, however, an example of a scenario that the developers DO have to consider as part of system design. You may not want to believe it, but in any MMO there is a significant population of people who go out of their way to use and abuse any angle of any system for their own gain.

You claim these scenarios, like I presented, are straw men arguments because they don't apply to "what people are asking for". I'll concede that point. If what all the people want is to be able to completely turn off world interaction outside of "unowned" items/containers then you are 100% right that the scenario I presented doesn't come into play. Sadly, what you believe all the people are asking for, what many want, and what the developers have to consider are not all the same thing.

I, personally, have no problem with being able to "opt-out" of stealing. That's why I presented a design option that would appease as much of the player population as possible. What I do have a problem with is the sad excuses for why it's needed. If you want the developers to listen to you, then you need to present solid arguments and evidence to support it. Claiming you had "massive fines" when all you did was "accidentally" steal one thing when you meant to click on an NPC is a lie. The system is simply not designed in such a way as to make that a reality. The Developers know that - they made it - and thus know the person is vastly exaggerating and give less weight to their input.

The system is designed, however, to give you an increased fine based on the amount of stolen goods in your inventory when you are caught. It also ramps based on your crimes and number of times being spotted in the commission of said crimes. I have been caught in the commission of a murder, with stolen goods, and fleeing a guard and my fine was never "massive" by any stretch of the imagination. Claiming that poor, unaware, new players are being murdered by guards for accidental stealing is, [not] shockingly, a straw man.

Now, new or unaware players being dragged into the system by doing something that heals/helps a wanted player? That is a valid concern and can be backed up by hard facts and logs. A new character, right out of the Wailing Prison, that does accidentally steal something and thus has a fine that exceeds what gold they could possibly have at that point is also a problem. Very few people are arguing otherwise. There are certainly areas for improvement and even the developers have conceded that point on a few issues.

The developers, in turn, have tried to point out that Justice is a "World System". This means that it is meant to be part of what makes the world a "living" thing. The ability to interact with said world is an important element of the game. The ability to peek into desks, grab a strand of garlic off a cart or know that you could pick the lock on a merchant's chest is a core element of gameplay to the developers because it adds world interaction. In their minds, right or wrong, removing the ability to interact with the world is the same as removing the risk of hostile encounters with Mobs "in the wild". Many see that as comparing apples to oranges - and on the surface they are right - but in the end they both boil down to "world interaction".

Thus we come to the heart of the problem. It has been condescendingly pointed out that what people want is the ability to never see the interaction option on "owned" items. That, in the developers minds, is an outright removal of world interactivity and goes against the their basic concept of how the game should work. Suck it up and accept that. Now, instead of crying because the developers aren't "respecting" your view on things perhaps offering solutions within the actual context of the problem is a better way to handle things?

Even the design solution I offered isn't really within the context of a feasible solution. My "Upstanding Citizen" setting falls into the category of removing world interaction - something the developers don't want to do. However, the options I listed for "Neutral" citizens are feasible, and may give the developers some brain-food for how to come up with a solution that the majority of players can be happy with.

No matter what, the attitude a few people have taken against any dissenting voice (even those still in support of changes) is toxic in the extreme. It is a stark reminder of just why many players find gaming forums to be a waste of time, a source of endless frustration, and to have an overall negative impact on the enjoyment of the games. My attempt to participate in this subject has certainly reminded me why it's pointless and adverse to my enjoyment of the game to visit the forums. I suppose, at the minimum, I should be thankful for the overall mild and painless reminder.

/soapbox

nerevarine1138

starkerealm wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

Just that I don't think that the system should be removed completely from the game.

Yeah, no, outside of a few straw man scarecrows, no one's arguing to remove it from the game. This is just about not pitching newbies into the deep end up front without warning.

EDIT: Well, and removing the worry that if we're in a hurry we won't accidentally... yes, actually accidentally, without the scare quotes, snag something off a bench or guild kiosk.

Explain how you can accidentally highlight and steal an item. I mean, you can cry lag (doesn't happen) or that your hand just slipped (your own fault), but please explain how highlighting something, seeing the red interaction text of "STEAL" pop up and clicking on it can be accidental.

starkerealm

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

Just that I don't think that the system should be removed completely from the game.

Yeah, no, outside of a few straw man scarecrows, no one's arguing to remove it from the game. This is just about not pitching newbies into the deep end up front without warning.

EDIT: Well, and removing the worry that if we're in a hurry we won't accidentally... yes, actually accidentally, without the scare quotes, snag something off a bench or guild kiosk.

Explain how you can accidentally highlight and steal an item. I mean, you can cry lag (doesn't happen) or that your hand just slipped (your own fault), but please explain how highlighting something, seeing the red interaction text of "STEAL" pop up and clicking on it can be accidental.

You press E.

nerevarine1138

starkerealm wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

Just that I don't think that the system should be removed completely from the game.

Yeah, no, outside of a few straw man scarecrows, no one's arguing to remove it from the game. This is just about not pitching newbies into the deep end up front without warning.

EDIT: Well, and removing the worry that if we're in a hurry we won't accidentally... yes, actually accidentally, without the scare quotes, snag something off a bench or guild kiosk.

Explain how you can accidentally highlight and steal an item. I mean, you can cry lag (doesn't happen) or that your hand just slipped (your own fault), but please explain how highlighting something, seeing the red interaction text of "STEAL" pop up and clicking on it can be accidental.

You press E.

That wasn't an accident, then.