Acquisition of CP via the XP mechanism is the problem

runagate

The whole problem would be solved by tying CP gain to something which is clearly not sensibly distributed (xp rewards per various activities at various levels) nor in an of itself challenging or rewarding (grinding xp, even if done via the painful slow method of unrewarding "dailies" or low reward Trials and such that for many people I play with don't have the allure of possible loot drops as they already have acquired it all and hardly any of it would ever be used by most engame players such as the Destructive Mage staves/jewelry sets).

Someone I know in-game said it should be tied to Achievement. I think that's awesome, but Achievement grinding is definitely an even worse option for many. I suppose it's like the non-consumables writs (cloth/blacksmithing/woodworking) where the investment in materials is not even remotely close to being worth it, even though the requirements *could* have been made fun and interesting.

Certainly a good way to get people to PvP would be to tie CP to actually achievable goals in Cyrodiil such as "kills all the bosses in a delve" or "take on 3 Cyrodiil dolmens" or the little dailies in towns like Bruma and the like, or to participate in some sort of actual AvA goals such as "kill 5 orcs" (just joking - you try finding 5 orcs in Cyrodiil in one day) or capturing all the Outposts or some such.

There's already lots and lots of things to do in-game that we don't do as there's no particular reward for doing so in comparison to other endgame activities (seriously, you'll barely ever see anyone doing a Craglron quest).

I have no particular solution, just trying to stir up discussion. Certainly tying CP to XP is not a very popular mechanism.

Audigy

The issue with XP bound CP´s is that everyone gathers XP different.

Some players need a year to reach VR 10, for them the current CP gain by doing quests is incredible slow. Someone else might grind to VR 10 by 5 days, for him the XP gain is too high.

Same with Dungeons or Trials, some people finish them in 20 minutes, for them the XP gain is too high. For those who need an hour or two, probably too low.

You just can not balance such a system, people play in different ways and speed.

Achievements would had been the only real system that would had worked, one time opportunities give things and not how fast you did them. Sadly, I doubt they will be able to change this / are willing to do so.

I would assume in a few months the CPs will be available for crowns, its the only way they can do it to not have gaps of 1000 points next year. Not sure how many the hardest grinder has now, maybe 200 or 250? The gap will get huge soon, the best for a casual is to just ignore the CP and play as you always played. That's at least what I do, but for people that do trials and dungeons, its going to be hard finding a group without top CPs.

Morshire

Audigy wrote: »

The issue with XP bound CP´s is that everyone gathers XP different.

Some players need a year to reach VR 10, for them the current CP gain by doing quests is incredible slow. Someone else might grind to VR 10 by 5 days, for him the XP gain is too high.

Same with Dungeons or Trials, some people finish them in 20 minutes, for them the XP gain is too high. For those who need an hour or two, probably too low.

You just can not balance such a system, people play in different ways and speed.

Achievements would had been the only real system that would had worked, one time opportunities give things and not how fast you did them. Sadly, I doubt they will be able to change this / are willing to do so.

I would assume in a few months the CPs will be available for crowns, its the only way they can do it to not have gaps of 1000 points next year. Not sure how many the hardest grinder has now, maybe 200 or 250? The gap will get huge soon, the best for a casual is to just ignore the CP and play as you always played. That's at least what I do, but for people that do trials and dungeons, its going to be hard finding a group without top CPs.

I had to throw an agree for that. I honestly thought that tying CP to achievements was/is the best answer. That would have solved so many issues. Not sure how they could implement that now (especially for people who have gotten them all already). But IMO, making them achievement bound would be best, and having them in place before all the achievements would have been ideal. Maybe, someday ZOS will figure out how to make that a viable option and the world will be all better........

runagate

Audigy wrote: »

I would assume in a few months the CPs will be available for crowns, its the only way they can do it to not have gaps of 1000 points next year. Not sure how many the hardest grinder has now, maybe 200 or 250? The gap will get huge soon, the best for a casual is to just ignore the CP and play as you always played. That's at least what I do, but for people that do trials and dungeons, its going to be hard finding a group without top CPs.

I seriously doubt that part. That's pretty much the definition of "pay to win."

asteldian

I have no issue with CP being xp bound, the problem is with the poor xp gains in game atm.
The fact grinding is the fastest xp is not something I care about, the fact doing actual content is terrible xp is the issue for me. As long as doing the content I enjoy actually rewards me fairly then I am happy, even if it is not the fastest gain it needs to be a decent gain. The idea of CP is the feeling of achivement for your character, if doing content gives bugger all xp then you feel you achieved nothing.
Players shouldn't have to choose between doing what they like doing (whether it be quests, trials, dungeons, PvP) or gaining CP.

AlnilamE

The thing is that the majority of Achievements are tied to things that DO grant you XP. With the exception of crafting and fishing, pretty much everything else does.

So anyone going for achievement completion would be gaining XP along the way and therefore be earning Champion Points too.

Kragorn

runagate wrote: »

Certainly a good way to get people to PvP would be to tie CP to actually achievable goals in Cyrodiil such as "kills all the bosses in a delve" or "take on 3 Cyrodiil dolmens" or the little dailies in towns like Bruma and the like, or to participate in some sort of actual AvA go

Absolutely NOT.

It's bad enough leveling to VR14 requires you to 'group up', it would be 100 times worse to make it forced-PVP to get CPs.

Kragorn

Morshire wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

The issue with XP bound CP´s is that everyone gathers XP different.

Some players need a year to reach VR 10, for them the current CP gain by doing quests is incredible slow. Someone else might grind to VR 10 by 5 days, for him the XP gain is too high.

Same with Dungeons or Trials, some people finish them in 20 minutes, for them the XP gain is too high. For those who need an hour or two, probably too low.

You just can not balance such a system, people play in different ways and speed.

Achievements would had been the only real system that would had worked, one time opportunities give things and not how fast you did them. Sadly, I doubt they will be able to change this / are willing to do so.

I would assume in a few months the CPs will be available for crowns, its the only way they can do it to not have gaps of 1000 points next year. Not sure how many the hardest grinder has now, maybe 200 or 250? The gap will get huge soon, the best for a casual is to just ignore the CP and play as you always played. That's at least what I do, but for people that do trials and dungeons, its going to be hard finding a group without top CPs.

I had to throw an agree for that. I honestly thought that tying CP to achievements was/is the best answer. That would have solved so many issues. Not sure how they could implement that now (especially for people who have gotten them all already). But IMO, making them achievement bound would be best, and having them in place before all the achievements would have been ideal. Maybe, someday ZOS will figure out how to make that a viable option and the world will be all better........

Achievements are worse grinds that CP is now, and don't solve the problem because they are finite, once done they can't be re-done.

Worse, doing it this way would force everyone to do everything .. PVE, PVP, solo, group, mob grinds, etc. etc .. which is about as bad as I can think it could get.

myrrrorb14_ESO

You could always set it up like dailies. Each one awards a cp. Have some set up for crafting, PvP, dungeons, etc. Make it have a max of 5cp a day.

Example:

Go to the group Champinion and pick one of the following
1) Complete Fungal Grotto and Spindleclutch
2) complete Hel Ra Citadel
3) Defeat all the champinion and complete the group challenge in Toothmaul Gully

runagate

Kragorn wrote: »

runagate wrote: »

Certainly a good way to get people to PvP would be to tie CP to actually achievable goals in Cyrodiil such as "kills all the bosses in a delve" or "take on 3 Cyrodiil dolmens" or the little dailies in towns like Bruma and the like, or to participate in some sort of actual AvA go

Absolutely NOT.

It's bad enough leveling to VR14 requires you to 'group up', it would be 100 times worse to make it forced-PVP to get CPs.

It was a suggestion for the PvPers who don't like leaving Cyrodiil, not to force those uninterested in PvPing into it.

You really do need to stop trolling every mention of PvP.

Morshire

Kragorn wrote: »

Morshire wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

The issue with XP bound CP´s is that everyone gathers XP different.

Some players need a year to reach VR 10, for them the current CP gain by doing quests is incredible slow. Someone else might grind to VR 10 by 5 days, for him the XP gain is too high.

Same with Dungeons or Trials, some people finish them in 20 minutes, for them the XP gain is too high. For those who need an hour or two, probably too low.

You just can not balance such a system, people play in different ways and speed.

Achievements would had been the only real system that would had worked, one time opportunities give things and not how fast you did them. Sadly, I doubt they will be able to change this / are willing to do so.

I would assume in a few months the CPs will be available for crowns, its the only way they can do it to not have gaps of 1000 points next year. Not sure how many the hardest grinder has now, maybe 200 or 250? The gap will get huge soon, the best for a casual is to just ignore the CP and play as you always played. That's at least what I do, but for people that do trials and dungeons, its going to be hard finding a group without top CPs.

I had to throw an agree for that. I honestly thought that tying CP to achievements was/is the best answer. That would have solved so many issues. Not sure how they could implement that now (especially for people who have gotten them all already). But IMO, making them achievement bound would be best, and having them in place before all the achievements would have been ideal. Maybe, someday ZOS will figure out how to make that a viable option and the world will be all better........

Achievements are worse grinds that CP is now, and don't solve the problem because they are finite, once done they can't be re-done.

Worse, doing it this way would force everyone to do everything .. PVE, PVP, solo, group, mob grinds, etc. etc .. which is about as bad as I can think it could get.

Okay, while I can agree that this would not be the perfect fix, explain how it is worse than the current situation for VR14 characters who have done it all and are now forced to grind for CP? At least with it tied to achievements, there would be numerous ways to gain CP.

The problem with your post is just a NO......so what is your suggestion? I would be open to anything other than what we currently have. XP/CP gain under the current method works for people that are just starting or not through with Silver/Gold. They can take advantage of all the different methods for gaining XP. So for those players, they have options. But now the VR14 character who has done all of Silver/Gold, they get what? Grind, grind, grind and maybe a few repeatable quests every day. At least with achievements, they wouldn't be forced into any one activity. Again, at this point, there are players who have already gotten most, if not all of the achievements, so it wouldn't work. But in my book, it would be better, and maybe there is a way to work around the achievements already earned.

Of course we could just take your suggestion.......NO

runagate

myrrrorb14_ESO wrote: »

You could always set it up like dailies. Each one awards a cp. Have some set up for crafting, PvP, dungeons, etc. Make it have a max of 5cp a day.

Example:

Go to the group Champinion and pick one of the following
1) Complete Fungal Grotto and Spindleclutch
2) complete Hel Ra Citadel
3) Defeat all the champinion and complete the group challenge in Toothmaul Gully

Awesome.

runagate

Ace_SiN

Yes, that't the major problem here. XP pots or no XP pots, the problem will still exist. XP is not equalized by any means. A person grinding for XP has an advantage over someone questing and a massive advantage over someone that wants to PvP. XP for questing and pvp are the same in that they have downtime, while grinding is a constant flow of xp that adds up better than quests. PvP is worst because you are relying on something unpredictable.


As a competitive PvPer for 10+ years, this is my issue... When do you stop grinding? Every second I spend in PvP I can't help but think of the guys sitting in grind spots and progressing their chars at a tolerable rate. Every system that ZOS adds for endgame progression seems to hinder fun(unless killing mobs all day in a circle is your favorite thing to do in games). Now I have no problem grinding, but I'd much rather have fun when I load up ESO.

As someone here suggested, I like the idea about tying cp to dailies. At least then I could put in some time for progression and then go actually enjoy the game. Not continuing this race to 3600 cp so that I can stay with the other competitive players.

runagate

[quote="Ace_SiN;1658521
As a competitive PvPer for 10+ years, this is my issue... When do you stop grinding? Every second I spend in PvP I can't help but think of the guys sitting in grind spots and progressing their chars at a tolerable rate. Every system that ZOS adds for endgame progression seems to hinder fun(unless killing mobs all day in a circle is your favorite thing to do in games). Now I have no problem grinding, but I'd much rather have fun when I load up ESO.

As someone here suggested, I like the idea about tying cp to dailies. At least then I could put in some time for progression and then go actually enjoy the game. Not continuing this race to 3600 cp so that I can stay with the other competitive players. [/quote]

Startlingly, I've talked to quite a few people who either have no intention of going out of their way to get CP (and certainly aren't going to get any in normal play, as they don't leave Cyrodiil) or will get them "when the Devs fix xp for PvPers."

I wouldn't hold my breath, but that's what they've said.

Strangely, I don't think they understand the seriousness of the issue, and how quickly those with CP will outpace those without.

Also, the best "tree" in the CP system for PvP is one that has basically no utility in PvE. I happen to have four endgame characters, so I can simply choose to dedicate one to PvP (which makes more sense, as Alliance Rank is nonsensically not account-wide even though it makes more sense for it to be than it does for CP to be, and my "main" is AR 20 without my having PvPed much for months). That option isn't open to most players, making the gulf even wider.

Also, it's even less an option for those who exclusively PvP, as you're certainly not going to want to level 4 different classes to VR 14 in Cyrodiil. In PvE, doing so is negligibly easy and, again, I emphasize I've never "grinded" them but did quests. Most PvPers hate quests and such (I really don't get why, but it's true).


Also, I have a boatload of endgame PvE loot. I think it's HILARIOUS that PvEers are complaining about all the great vendor bag Sets I've been proselytizing about for months are now the ones they suddenly want, as I don't think PvPers realize how good some of the endgame PvE loot is.

For instance, Ebon Armory, Hircine's Veneer and Worm's Raiment are really only valuable in PvP. Quick and Poisonous Serpent are surprisingly good options for PvP stamina builds. I imagine 99% of PvPers have never even heard of Sunderflame, Burning Spellweaver or Embershield Sets (from CoA).

For PvEers, take a look at Beckoning Steel (think how great that'd be in Sanctum), Segeant's Mail for a "full charged heavy attack" build, or the one I've been trying to get for months, Elf Bane, which is a heavy armor with similar bonuses to Martial Knowledge, the FOTM, but with a 2-second extension to "burning effects" that I want for my magicka DK but can't seem to find the belt or chest at any price, so I know people aren't thinking about it.

PvP Set traits might actually get an update since PvEers are now all clamoring for them, though, so that's a silver lining.