Classes in ESO

ShadowMage

Let me start off with a disclaimer:
ESO is the first MMO I’ve ever played, and I haven’t been playing it for very long (a month, maybe).

That said, I’ve seen a lot of discussion and complaints lately about X class being nerfed or way OP (in particular, the sorcs being nerfed). I don’t have enough experience in the game to claim one or the other about any class, but quite frankly, I think everyone is looking at this the wrong way. I see a lot of “tank sorcs” or “healing sorcs” need some TLC (I’m going to pick on sorcs because they’re the most prevalent lately) and complaining how the sorc doesn’t have a skill for this or a skill for that. IMHO, each class should have a unique set of skills tailored towards a certain task or role. Something like this:
DK – These are the tanks, some DPS but by and large tanks and the skills should reflect that
Temp – These are the healers, perhaps a little tank but skills should be tailored to healing
NB – Stealth and DPS (so stam-based), maybe some self heals but geared towards stealthy DPS
Sorc – Magicka DPS, maybe some heals or tank stuff but mostly magicka-based DPS

The beauty of ESO is that they don’t restrict what weapons and armor you can wear on what class. This means you can make up the shortfalls in your class by utilizing different weapons and armor, or become a top gun in w/e it is your class excels at.
So you want to be a tanky sorc? Wear HA and go with OH+S. Want to be a super-powered caster? Wear light armor and use staves. Want to have a healing DK? Use a resto staff. Want a damage-dealing cleric? Put some med armor and a 2H on your temp.

This is how I think the system should work. If every class is supposed have the skills to effectively tank, heal and do damage, then why even have classes in the first place? There could just be one class with a skill line for each role. What are your thoughts?

Please be nice to the noob.

Khivas_Carrick

Classes serve as a guideline to what exactly you want while providing a base focus for something you may want to do.

To explain more properly to you, I need to teach you about terms known as Flavor and Mechanics.

Flavor refers to how something looks or the visual effect of what's being done. For example a fireball and a lightning bolt both do the same thing, which is deal damage and kill stuff, but both do it in a wildly different way visually. Same thing with a 2H sword attack and a Dual Wield attack.

Mechanics is how these two things go about doing them. The fireball and DWing have inititial hits followed by small damage over time effects, while the bolt and 2H attacks deal all of their damage up front. Both do the same thing, just both offer a unique way of doing it for the sake of variety.

The same thing with our class system. Templars will be more obvious as healers and Dragonknights more apparent as tanks, but there are a large number of ways to go about playing this game and does the best job it can of mimicking old school Elder Scrolls. Because of this you can have a Sorcerer tank just fine for you and a Nightblade heal just as well as a Templar, and that Templar do excellent melee stamina DPS and that Dragonknight be an excellent pyromage DPS.

Classes are guidelines for the uninitiated or for those looking for a template to play with, without them new players would be very lost and older players would never bother messing around with new characters. Simply put, they are needed.

Fizzlewizzle

I personally would have liked it if there was a bit more difference between the classes.
At this moment you see a lot of complaints about 1 class outshining another class, and complaints about people being below other classes when it comes to certain aspects of the game.

Special trees (Like the Templars Restoring Light tree and the Nightblades Assassination tree) hardly get any love because it makes people complain about "someone being better then they are", not keeping in mind that its a specialized tree.

I personally think that it would do the game much good if they make a clear distinction between classes. It would lessen the complaints about 1 class vs the other, and promote teamwork.
Give all classes 2 trees focused on there "main roll", and 1 tree focused on the other stuff.

From my perspective it would be something like:
Templar: Healer.
Skill tree 1) Healing skills.
Skill tree 2) Support skills.
Skill tree 3) Damage.

Skill tree 1:
All possible types of healing skills (HoT, Channeled, Burst, Sustain)

Skill tree 2:
- Damage buffs for teammates.
- Weakening the enemies.
- Cleansing skills.
- Regen boosters for the whole group.
- Maybe even a self resurrect option for areas where you normally can't ress yourself (boss fights, PvP)

Skill tree 3:
Basically a combo of the current Dawn's Wrath skill tree and the Aedric spear skill tree. bit of both.

Dragonknight: Tank.
Skill tree 1) Tanking and mitigation.
Skill tree 2) Taunts and Crowd Control
Skill tree 3) Damage.

Skill tree 1:
- Defense/ armor boosters.
- Reflect skills
- Damage mitigation skills.
- Protection areas (think about the Templar Focus skill)

Skill tree 2:
- Tallons
- Chains
- Stuns
- knockbacks

Skill tree 3:
A few of their current damage skills. Shouldn't excel at damage, but enough to kill.

Nightblade: Burst DPS.
Skill tree 1) High Cost, High DPS opening skills
Skill tree 2) High Cost, High DPS finisher skills
Skill tree 3) Sneak/ Hiding skills.

Skill tree 1:
- Skills that deal high bonus damage against enemies who aren't wounded.
- Mirrored execute skills (deal 300% damage against full health target, lowering damage until they are at 75% health, after which you deal normal damage)
- Short and long ranged skills.

Skill tree 2:
- Execute skills (channeled, instant, DoT skills. Long ranged and short ranged).

Skill tree 3:
- Skill which they can use to elude the enemies.
- skill which they can use to enter and exit combat whenever they want.
- Hiding skills

Sorcerer: Sustain DPS
Skill tree 1) DPS with lots of sustain options
Skill tree 2) Passive DPS skills (lots of pets and tools)
Skill tree 3) Sustain/ Regen tools.

skill tree 1:
- Normal dps skills (various types) with low cost/ resource return.

Skill tree 2:
- A few high cost pets that deal decent damage.

Skill tree 3:
- Absorb skills.
- Drain skills
- Sacrifice skills (for the pets)
- Trade-off skills (Dark Exchange)

This is basically how i would see a decent balance.
Excell at one thing and be below par with other things.
For a Trails run you could use a (few) Nightblade(s) for the first 25% and the last 25% of the fight, while the sorcerer could manage the rest of the fight without having much worries about resources.

For PvP you would have 3 (sort of) groups.
- Templars and Sorcerers,
- DK
- Nightblade.
The Templar and Sorcerer would be the main force of combat, for constant damage and keeping everyone alive.
Dk's would be the type of guys that walk in (without much trouble) and keep everyone in check for the main force.
Nightblades would be the guys that take out the strong points (DK and healers) after which they could fall back behind there own lines.

Khivas_Carrick

That would make PvP horribly flawed as you're trying to treat it like a PvE encounter when nobody will treat it like such. Second, for reasons I've already stated, trying to shoehorn classes into specific fixed roles is that

1) It spits in what makes the Elder Scrolls the Elder Scrolls.

2) It ruins the game itself and generally games that do that tend to not live long because they grow boring and stale.

The game is set the way it is because it keeps it exciting and constantly fresh, and nothing is set in stone. A Nightblade can heal just as well as a Templar but will find their support skills are lacking unless they choose different skills to use instead of their class based ones. Additionally this works in reverse and for other classes, for as I've said, they are guidelines for the uninitiated and templates at best.

If you want to be a DPS Templar like a paladin or cleric, go for it.

A dark Shadow Healer using Nightblade as a template?

A pyromage perhaps?

Or will a Daedric Spell sword Sorcerer first your boat better?

Solar Mage?

Monster Hunter?

Reaver?

Flash Priest?

You can do these things in ESO, archetypes be damned.

ShadowMage

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Classes serve as a guideline to what exactly you want while providing a base focus for something you may want to do.

To explain more properly to you, I need to teach you about terms known as Flavor and Mechanics.

Flavor refers to how something looks or the visual effect of what's being done. For example a fireball and a lightning bolt both do the same thing, which is deal damage and kill stuff, but both do it in a wildly different way visually. Same thing with a 2H sword attack and a Dual Wield attack.

Mechanics is how these two things go about doing them. The fireball and DWing have inititial hits followed by small damage over time effects, while the bolt and 2H attacks deal all of their damage up front. Both do the same thing, just both offer a unique way of doing it for the sake of variety.

The same thing with our class system. Templars will be more obvious as healers and Dragonknights more apparent as tanks, but there are a large number of ways to go about playing this game and does the best job it can of mimicking old school Elder Scrolls. Because of this you can have a Sorcerer tank just fine for you and a Nightblade heal just as well as a Templar, and that Templar do excellent melee stamina DPS and that Dragonknight be an excellent pyromage DPS.

Right. I understand the need for variety and flavor. But the Sorcerer, on its own, should not be able to tank effectively. It needs to utilize things like heavy armor skills. Maybe the Sorcerer could have a couple of CC or bound armor skills, but the majority should come from other skill lines. Something like what Fizzlewizzle said:

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Give all classes 2 trees focused on there "main roll", and 1 tree focused on the other stuff.

Two trees for primary role, one tree with a few skills to fit other roles, with the rest of the "other role" stuff coming from alternate skill lines. I'm not saying this is the perfect solution, just a good thought. It wouldn't have to be separated like that either, but just have skills scattered throughout the class or have secondary effects on some the other skills that grant bonuses outside of the class's intended role. The Sorcerer's Lightning Form is a good example. It fits the class and provides magic DPS, but also provides a nice tank bonus in the form of increased armor and spell resistance. My point is this:

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Classes are guidelines for the uninitiated or for those looking for a template to play with, without them new players would be very lost and older players would never bother messing around with new characters. Simply put, they are needed.

Guidelines. So the new player coming to ESO is looking for a healer, he chooses a Templar. Or maybe he wants to do some serious magical damage, so he chooses a Sorcerer. And true to Elder Scrolls, he can use any weapon and wear any armor, so he decides to supplement his class's normal skills with something it isn't so good at. Just like you said:

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

A Nightblade can heal just as well as a Templar but will find their support skills are lacking unless they choose different skills to use instead of their class based ones. Additionally this works in reverse and for other classes...

Class skills, IMO, should be oriented towards a certain role and be supplemented by other skill lines.

...And restricting classes to one role won't break the "play how you want" theme of Elder Scrolls since you can use whatever weapons and armor you want and utilize any/all skill lines in the game (except those of a different class obviously). Even Morrowind and Oblivion had classes. They didn't provide abiliities like they do in ESO, but they did come with preset skill level bonuses that oriented your character towards a certain role/playstyle. You chose a class as a template, but it changed and evolved based on how you played.

Khivas_Carrick

shadowmage016b14_ESO wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Classes serve as a guideline to what exactly you want while providing a base focus for something you may want to do.

To explain more properly to you, I need to teach you about terms known as Flavor and Mechanics.

Flavor refers to how something looks or the visual effect of what's being done. For example a fireball and a lightning bolt both do the same thing, which is deal damage and kill stuff, but both do it in a wildly different way visually. Same thing with a 2H sword attack and a Dual Wield attack.

Mechanics is how these two things go about doing them. The fireball and DWing have inititial hits followed by small damage over time effects, while the bolt and 2H attacks deal all of their damage up front. Both do the same thing, just both offer a unique way of doing it for the sake of variety.

The same thing with our class system. Templars will be more obvious as healers and Dragonknights more apparent as tanks, but there are a large number of ways to go about playing this game and does the best job it can of mimicking old school Elder Scrolls. Because of this you can have a Sorcerer tank just fine for you and a Nightblade heal just as well as a Templar, and that Templar do excellent melee stamina DPS and that Dragonknight be an excellent pyromage DPS.

Right. I understand the need for variety and flavor. But the Sorcerer, on its own, should not be able to tank effectively. It needs to utilize things like heavy armor skills. Maybe the Sorcerer could have a couple of CC or bound armor skills, but the majority should come from other skill lines. Something like what Fizzlewizzle said:

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Give all classes 2 trees focused on there "main roll", and 1 tree focused on the other stuff.

Two trees for primary role, one tree with a few skills to fit other roles, with the rest of the "other role" stuff coming from alternate skill lines. I'm not saying this is the perfect solution, just a good thought. It wouldn't have to be separated like that either, but just have skills scattered throughout the class or have secondary effects on some the other skills that grant bonuses outside of the class's intended role. The Sorcerer's Lightning Form is a good example. It fits the class and provides magic DPS, but also provides a nice tank bonus in the form of increased armor and spell resistance. My point is this:

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Classes are guidelines for the uninitiated or for those looking for a template to play with, without them new players would be very lost and older players would never bother messing around with new characters. Simply put, they are needed.

Guidelines. So the new player coming to ESO is looking for a healer, he chooses a Templar. Or maybe he wants to do some serious magical damage, so he chooses a Sorcerer. And true to Elder Scrolls, he can use any weapon and wear any armor, so he decides to supplement his class's normal skills with something it isn't so good at. Just like you said:

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

A Nightblade can heal just as well as a Templar but will find their support skills are lacking unless they choose different skills to use instead of their class based ones. Additionally this works in reverse and for other classes...

Class skills, IMO, should be oriented towards a certain role and be supplemented by other skill lines.

...And restricting classes to one role won't break the "play how you want" theme of Elder Scrolls since you can use whatever weapons and armor you want and utilize any/all skill lines in the game (except those of a different class obviously). Even Morrowind and Oblivion had classes. They didn't provide abiliities like they do in ESO, but they did come with preset skill level bonuses that oriented your character towards a certain role/playstyle. You chose a class as a template, but it changed and evolved based on how you played.

Nope, sorry, but if you were to force each class into a set role/pigeon hole it, it would completely ruin the play how you want style of Elder Scrolls, and as of now it's already been fiercely compromised and is only now seeing some form of normalcy of it's once mighty form as previously seen in the single player games.

In this case, Bound Armor and other things of that nature fit the Sorcerer perfectly and it should allow them to tank, period. The notion that you think a class won't be good at something is also a non-hit, especially since I did not say that. I said that a class can be appealing to that sort of thing, but that doesn't mean it'll be better at it. People think that DKs are still the best tanks, but I've noticed lately that Templars seem to be doing far batter at it, or even Nightblades due to evasion and siphon skills. when you said how "it wouldn't have to be separated like that either", you describe exactly how things are now, with each tree in every class having a dual purpose, with the slight exception of a Templar's Restoring Light being geared towards pure healing and tanking instead of support and some other role.

Trust me when I say that there is a reason why that over the years the premade classes in TES were used less and less and eventually removed. They were restrictive in many ways, and even now many people want the classes removed and I don't entirely blame them, but like I said, we need them, and the classes themselves can't be pigeon holed into a specific role and then rely on weapon and guild skills for other roles, especially since it wouldn't match the lore or theme of the class at all.

And one more thing I forgot to mention earlier, and that's if you made it so classes didn't exist and every single tree was available to one character, the variety of this game would die out near instantly because the majority of players would rush to the Flavor Of The Month Build and use only that one single build for max effectiveness.

Imagine if you will every healer spamming BoL, every Mage using Sea Of Flames or whatever it's called from the DK lines, every PvPer using Bolt Escape, and everybody claiming the uselessness of Shadow Cloak.

It's a damn nightmare lol

ShadowMage

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

And one more thing I forgot to mention earlier, and that's if you made it so classes didn't exist and every single tree was available to one character, the variety of this game would die out near instantly because the majority of players would rush to the Flavor Of The Month Build and use only that one single build for max effectiveness.

Imagine if you will every healer spamming BoL, every Mage using Sea Of Flames or whatever it's called from the DK lines, every PvPer using Bolt Escape, and everybody claiming the uselessness of Shadow Cloak.

It's a damn nightmare lol

Well, when you put it that way...lol

I can see your point, but I'm still not 100% convinced it couldn't work. Maybe the classes are not "better" at a particular role, but still geared toward a particular role in that they have a wider variety or more utility in a given role, but still just as effective with the few skills they do have in other roles. Or like I said before, secondary effects on skills that would allow unique cross overs into other roles. The Nightblade's siphoning tree is a good example of the latter. It damages and debuffs the enemy, while at the same time healing the Nightblade and his allies. Lightning Form, as I mentioned, is another good example of a multi-role skill. Pets (if done right, and admittedly they do need help) could be an efficient form of tanking. Perhaps that's what ZoS was attempting to achieve: each class being good at each role, but with more variety in their chosen role. Maybe that's what people are complaining about. Or maybe ZoS has failed to achieve it. Maybe both. I'm not sure.

I personally liked having the classes as a starting point for the type of character I wanted to play in previous ES games. I like being a stealthy mage, but there wasn't really any class that offered exactly what I wanted, so I had to train some of my skills a little more than others. Still, I could at least start out being good at spell casting or good at sneaking. It actually made me feel like I had accomplished something when I trained up the skills I was lacking in up to a point where they became useful. Then again, the classes and skills are entirely different in ESO, so maybe this is a moot point...

Fizzlewizzle

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

shadowmage016b14_ESO wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Classes serve as a guideline to what exactly you want while providing a base focus for something you may want to do.

To explain more properly to you, I need to teach you about terms known as Flavor and Mechanics.

Flavor refers to how something looks or the visual effect of what's being done. For example a fireball and a lightning bolt both do the same thing, which is deal damage and kill stuff, but both do it in a wildly different way visually. Same thing with a 2H sword attack and a Dual Wield attack.

Mechanics is how these two things go about doing them. The fireball and DWing have inititial hits followed by small damage over time effects, while the bolt and 2H attacks deal all of their damage up front. Both do the same thing, just both offer a unique way of doing it for the sake of variety.

The same thing with our class system. Templars will be more obvious as healers and Dragonknights more apparent as tanks, but there are a large number of ways to go about playing this game and does the best job it can of mimicking old school Elder Scrolls. Because of this you can have a Sorcerer tank just fine for you and a Nightblade heal just as well as a Templar, and that Templar do excellent melee stamina DPS and that Dragonknight be an excellent pyromage DPS.

Right. I understand the need for variety and flavor. But the Sorcerer, on its own, should not be able to tank effectively. It needs to utilize things like heavy armor skills. Maybe the Sorcerer could have a couple of CC or bound armor skills, but the majority should come from other skill lines. Something like what Fizzlewizzle said:

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Give all classes 2 trees focused on there "main roll", and 1 tree focused on the other stuff.

Two trees for primary role, one tree with a few skills to fit other roles, with the rest of the "other role" stuff coming from alternate skill lines. I'm not saying this is the perfect solution, just a good thought. It wouldn't have to be separated like that either, but just have skills scattered throughout the class or have secondary effects on some the other skills that grant bonuses outside of the class's intended role. The Sorcerer's Lightning Form is a good example. It fits the class and provides magic DPS, but also provides a nice tank bonus in the form of increased armor and spell resistance. My point is this:

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Classes are guidelines for the uninitiated or for those looking for a template to play with, without them new players would be very lost and older players would never bother messing around with new characters. Simply put, they are needed.

Guidelines. So the new player coming to ESO is looking for a healer, he chooses a Templar. Or maybe he wants to do some serious magical damage, so he chooses a Sorcerer. And true to Elder Scrolls, he can use any weapon and wear any armor, so he decides to supplement his class's normal skills with something it isn't so good at. Just like you said:

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

A Nightblade can heal just as well as a Templar but will find their support skills are lacking unless they choose different skills to use instead of their class based ones. Additionally this works in reverse and for other classes...

Class skills, IMO, should be oriented towards a certain role and be supplemented by other skill lines.

...And restricting classes to one role won't break the "play how you want" theme of Elder Scrolls since you can use whatever weapons and armor you want and utilize any/all skill lines in the game (except those of a different class obviously). Even Morrowind and Oblivion had classes. They didn't provide abiliities like they do in ESO, but they did come with preset skill level bonuses that oriented your character towards a certain role/playstyle. You chose a class as a template, but it changed and evolved based on how you played.

Nope, sorry, but if you were to force each class into a set role/pigeon hole it, it would completely ruin the play how you want style of Elder Scrolls, and as of now it's already been fiercely compromised and is only now seeing some form of normalcy of it's once mighty form as previously seen in the single player games.

In this case, Bound Armor and other things of that nature fit the Sorcerer perfectly and it should allow them to tank, period. The notion that you think a class won't be good at something is also a non-hit, especially since I did not say that. I said that a class can be appealing to that sort of thing, but that doesn't mean it'll be better at it. People think that DKs are still the best tanks, but I've noticed lately that Templars seem to be doing far batter at it, or even Nightblades due to evasion and siphon skills. when you said how "it wouldn't have to be separated like that either", you describe exactly how things are now, with each tree in every class having a dual purpose, with the slight exception of a Templar's Restoring Light being geared towards pure healing and tanking instead of support and some other role.

Trust me when I say that there is a reason why that over the years the premade classes in TES were used less and less and eventually removed. They were restrictive in many ways, and even now many people want the classes removed and I don't entirely blame them, but like I said, we need them, and the classes themselves can't be pigeon holed into a specific role and then rely on weapon and guild skills for other roles, especially since it wouldn't match the lore or theme of the class at all.

And one more thing I forgot to mention earlier, and that's if you made it so classes didn't exist and every single tree was available to one character, the variety of this game would die out near instantly because the majority of players would rush to the Flavor Of The Month Build and use only that one single build for max effectiveness.

Imagine if you will every healer spamming BoL, every Mage using Sea Of Flames or whatever it's called from the DK lines, every PvPer using Bolt Escape, and everybody claiming the uselessness of Shadow Cloak.

It's a damn nightmare lol

I could follow you pretty much until the end.... there i lost you.
Allowing each class to do everything vs focusing classes on a single job only are basically the two ends of the scale.

The first option will prevent everyone from running with "uber builds" which could happen if every player could use every skill currently in the game, which makes classes a good solution for a MMO TES game, but at the same time it actually backfires on the claim "every class can do everything".

Personally i'm a very passive player. I rather stay in the back as a healer then be up front fighting. This would make the Templar the best choice for me. In Other ESO games i would have gone for Summoning, since i personally don't want to fight, and rather have something fight for me. Here that would let me end up with the Sorcerer class, Although they can heal using the Restoration staff tree they miss the burst healing you would normally expect from a healer, which will put me on two fronts and won't allow me to do everything.

The second option (every single job having 1 specified purpose) gives players a clear view of what a class can do and what you can expect from them. At this moment you don't know what you can expect from any class unless you put a lot of time into it. Going through half the game (main story) and finding out your class can't do what you expected it to do is a real bummer compared to picking a task focused class (Healer, Tank, Dps) and doing the same content.
If you pick a healer you should be able to guess that damage wouldn't be sky high and tanking shouldn't be the way to go. Same with the other jobs.

If they wanted to do a real mix and match of "every class could do anything" then they should have given them the "same" skill sets, but have each on excel a bit in one field vs the other.

Everyone should have tank skills.
Everyone should have Summon spells
Everyone should have sneak skills
Everyone should have damage skills
Everyone should have healing skills.
But the presentation, elements, functions and use of those skills should be different.
One class could have more of 1 type of skills compared to another class, but when it comes to power they should all be the same, the use could make them stronger than others.

ShadowMage

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

Allowing each class to do everything vs focusing classes on a single job only are basically the two ends of the scale.

That pretty much sums it up. You need to strike a balance. And that means compromising somewhere. We don't want everyone to do everything as well as everyone else (which seems to be what people are asking for) because that will lead to the "Flavor of the Month" builds, as Khavis put it. But neither do we want to strictly limit classes to one specific role. That means being able to do everything, but excelling in only one area. That means Sorcerers can tank, and they can heal, but they won't be as good at tanking as a DK or as good at healing as a Templar. Templars can do damage or tank, but they wouldn't as good as a DK for tanking or a Sorcerer/NB for doing damage.
Now, being "better" at a role doesn't have to mean that their skills are more powerful (say a NB could heal only 500 hp, while a Temp could heal 1500). It could mean that they have better utility or that they have a wider variety of skills to choose from. The DK is a good example. A DK can be a DPS character, but is limited by the weapons he wields and w/e skills are acquired in the Ardent Flame tree. Viable as DPS, but limited to a few skills.
The more I look at, the more I think this is what ZoS intended...the skills in each class seem to be made for a specific role with a few other skills sprinkled in to make them viable in other roles. Now whether ZoS failed in that implementation (either by poor planning or by caving to demand) or people are actually looking for each class to be exactly equal in each role is another story.

Rune_Relic

I am with @Khivas_Carrick on this

If you make the classes with unique skills it means some bosses and content is easier for one class than another. It also means in PVP its almost impossible to balance combat.

So to me the classes shoudl have been just different versions of essentially the same abilities with their own unique class style span into it.
ie.
Gap closer
Gap maker
CC
PBAoE
HoT DoT
Single Target
Ranged AoE
Single Target Range.
Block
Interrrupt
Evasion.

This then means although they have their own unique skills....they are still functionally identical.
So costs and damage etc can be easily balanced.
All classes can complete the same content.
All classes can compete with each other 1:1 in PVP.

The difference should come from the attribute allocation.
I have magicka build so focus on spells.
I have stamina build so focus on weapons.

Fizzlewizzle

Rune_Relic wrote: »

I am with @Khivas_Carrick on this

If you make the classes with unique skills it means some bosses and content is easier for one class than another. It also means in PVP its almost impossible to balance combat.

So to me the classes shoudl have been just different versions of essentially the same abilities with their own unique class style span into it.
ie.
Gap closer
Gap maker
CC
PBAoE
HoT DoT
Single Target
Ranged AoE
Single Target Range.
Block
Interrrupt
Evasion.

This then means although they have their own unique skills....they are still functionally identical.
So costs and damage etc can be easily balanced.
All classes can complete the same content.
All classes can compete with each other 1:1 in PVP.

The difference should come from the attribute allocation.
I have magicka build so focus on spells.
I have stamina build so focus on weapons.

Basically what i tried to write down, but in a way other people can understand it

It shouldn't be to hard to do this, and all skills shouldn't have to look the same (or in the same order), as long as the end result of each tree offers the same thing to each class.

Nova, Storm Atronach and Dragonknight Standard are basically the same skills.
They are all dropped in on a spot where they deal AOE damage for a certain period of time.
- Standard of Might and Nova Both reduce the damage of the enemies within their range.
- Storm Atronach and Nova are both long ranged "projectiles" which you can place somewhere.

The damage might need some scaling (that they are equal), give Standard a range effect and make the Storm Atronach deal damage around itself + damage reduction instead of a ranged projectile, and you got 3 equal skills. Add Consuming darkness to it (Reduces damage taken in the area) and add damage to it and you got 4 equal skills.

Dark Flare and Crystal Shard are close to the same.
Encase and Dark Talons are close to the same.
Assassins Blade and Focused charge are close to the same.
Sun Shield, Conjure ward and Obsidian shield are close to the same.

I don't see why balancing those skills (with a lot of other ones) will be so hard.

ShadowMage

PvP is a whole other ball game. It requires a lot more planning and balancing to get right. I'm not saying they should eliminate it or separate it by having separate skill lines or what not. I don't think that's the right way at all. It's just vastly different from PvE, simply because there is an actual, thinking human being controlling the enemies, not a scripted AI. Balance is always difficult in that situation, unless every character is, as you said, functionally identical.

I have some difficulty getting behind this one though:

Rune_Relic wrote: »

If you make the classes with unique skills it means some bosses and content is easier for one class than another.

It would indeed make certain enemies harder for certain classes. But that also means that certain other enemies would be easier for certain classes. That's part of the experience of Elder Scrolls, I think. But that won't go away with having every class functionally identical. Say you want to be a bad-ass 2H master of the greatsword, but you come across an enemy that is immune to physical weapon damage. Since you put all your time and skill points into leveling your 2H mastery, you are now powerless against said enemy unless you go back and level some spells, or enchant your sword, or some other method of inflicting non-physical damage. Another player may encounter the same enemy and, since they put their skill points into spells, zap it a few times with a lighting bolt and walk away without breaking a sweat. That same player finds an enemy immune to lightning and needs to rethink their attack, while the first player wipes the floor with that enemy.

Khivas_Carrick

Thankfully this isn't Pathfinder or D&D where an enemy can be completely and entirely immune to a type of weapon and will be effectively removed from the fight. In fact, it's because of PvP that classes and certain things like this exist in the first place.

Think of PvP where an entirely zerg of elemental fighters just ran up on a castle full of people with axes and the like. What would they do? Sit there and wait to die? And again the issue of FotM comes into play when they start finding that this works the best and only 2 out of 10 can hit you instead of 7 out of 10 (just an example, not real numbers here or anything, but you get the point).

The fights need to be placed on a similar scale from each other so balancing classes is not only easier but actually possible in the first place. Similar for PvP, since as I said earlier, everybody running around the same skills = bad news, but everyone running around with similar skills = good news.

Fizzlewizzle

shadowmage016b14_ESO wrote: »

PvP is a whole other ball game. It requires a lot more planning and balancing to get right. I'm not saying they should eliminate it or separate it by having separate skill lines or what not. I don't think that's the right way at all. It's just vastly different from PvE, simply because there is an actual, thinking human being controlling the enemies, not a scripted AI. Balance is always difficult in that situation, unless every character is, as you said, functionally identical.

I have some difficulty getting behind this one though:

Rune_Relic wrote: »

If you make the classes with unique skills it means some bosses and content is easier for one class than another.

It would indeed make certain enemies harder for certain classes. But that also means that certain other enemies would be easier for certain classes. That's part of the experience of Elder Scrolls, I think. But that won't go away with having every class functionally identical. Say you want to be a bad-ass 2H master of the greatsword, but you come across an enemy that is immune to physical weapon damage. Since you put all your time and skill points into leveling your 2H mastery, you are now powerless against said enemy unless you go back and level some spells, or enchant your sword, or some other method of inflicting non-physical damage. Another player may encounter the same enemy and, since they put their skill points into spells, zap it a few times with a lighting bolt and walk away without breaking a sweat. That same player finds an enemy immune to lightning and needs to rethink their attack, while the first player wipes the floor with that enemy.

I wouldn't completely agree with the second part, and i will follow @Rune_Relic in this one.
During PvE you don't talk about a situation where 1 class has the advantage over 1 fight while the other has it over another fight. The enemies aren't immune to anything, and the combat system treats everyone equally. This basically means that ones 1 class has the advantage over the other there is no way you can best them.

A sneak playstyle (what you might expect from a Nightblade) doesn't work here. You won't get bonus damage if you sneak attack someone (maybe a bit, like every other class, but not like skyrim with a 15X or 30X normal damage bonus), and once you kill (or attack) 1 enemy of a group the rest knows exactly where you are and will hunt you down.
This means that a defensive stronger class (Like the Dragonknight) will always have an advantage over someone like the Nightblade in a PvE fight.

Vandril

I think the best way to go would be to get rid of classes...sort of. Hear me out.

• Give the player, when they roll their character, the option of choosing any combination of three "class" skill lines from any of the class skill lines currently in the game.
  
• Make it so this choice either cannot be changed after the character is made, or can be changed for extreme costs. Maybe going so far as to reset class skill line exp entirely upon changing, as an example of cost severity.
  
• Keep the current classes as templates for users who don't want to or know enough to make their own custom class skill line selection.

Boom. Seriously unique builds can start to just ooze out of the woodwork without allowing everyone to do everything on a single character.

Alts beyond "one of each class and some bank/crafting alts" will become important again, for different "class" designs.

The main problem, of course, will be balance. From a game developer point of view, balancing a system like this is utter hell.

ShadowMage

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Thankfully this isn't Pathfinder or D&D where an enemy can be completely and entirely immune to a type of weapon and will be effectively removed from the fight.

Fizzlewizzle wrote: »

The enemies aren't immune to anything, and the combat system treats everyone equally. This basically means that ones 1 class has the advantage over the other there is no way you can best them.

Rune_Relic specifically mentioned that having unique skills would make certain content easier. I was simply using an extreme example of such to illustrate my point that you can't avoid that, even if all classes have access to the same skills simply because the player has the freedom to create their character the way they want. If content is easier for certain character builds, that means there are specific skills/playstyles that work better for that content. If a player doesn't utilize those skills or playstyles, they will have a more difficult time of it. Whether ESO's enemies are made that way or not, I don't know, since I haven't gotten very far in the game yet.

I'm not a PvP-er and I'm used to playing solo (like previous ES titles) or co-op (like Baldur's Gate) games. It sounds to me like PvP is the big reason for having similar skills across all classes and I can understand that. Players will find the skills that work best, while AI will simply use the skills it's told to use.
I still think it could work having specialize skills but it would most certainly be much more difficult to balance. Though, it looks like I'm outnumbered on this one. It still would be nice if classes had more variety in their chosen role, then. Every class has a version of each skill type listed by Rune_Relic, but have more of the skills fitted for their intended role. Not more powerful ones, just a wider variety of equal or lesser power.

Fizzlewizzle

I understood your example, as well as @Rune_Relic 's point of view.
The thing i wanted to point out isn't in the skills, but within the combat system. Half the playstyles are unusable because of the combat system, so the skills/ classes that are made to function within this combat system will always have the advantage.

As i mentioned before, sneak gameplay doesn't exist (like it did in skyrim). Even when facing a group you pick-off your targets one-by-one. Once you initiate the fight you will automatically face every enemy that is within a certain range of your main target.
Because of this mechanic a nightblade "specialized" in assassination (not the tree, the concept) won't ever work. The only way such a thing would work with this combat system is when you would give them a "1-hit skill when they start a fight while being out of combat" and a skill which allows the user to "get out of combat, no matter the situation they are in".
But then again... such skills will be very unbalanced in a PvP scenario, which brings us back to the balancing issue.

If it wasn't for the PVP aspect (as you already mentioned) it would be very simple to go from 1 extreme to the other when it comes to classes, builds and skills. But since you have PVP this has become impossible.

waylandarwb17_ESO

I am not trying to be insulting but NO, the classes in ESO are this way so they are as much like the previous Elder Scroll games as possible.

If you want skill trees as outlined above please go play WoW or any of the million other MMOs that follow your format. Elder Scrolls is unique and we like this.

Please go play Morrowwind/Oblivion/Skyrim. I bet once you have played these you will understand how and why ESO is how it is.

If not there is always SWTOR/WoW.

newtinmpls

My previous playing experience in ES was Morrowind, where there were lots of skills, and "class" just meant what did you start out slightly better in. A beginning, not an ending.

Personally, I think that no classes and any skill lines available to any character would be preferable. Partly that would be so I could have every character I ran summon familiars. But that's just me.

Truth is, the "class" in ESO is only three skill lines. I suspect that it's possible to run a successful character and not use a single class skill. I may try it some time just for the heck of it.