To those that say the vocal minority is ruining this game.
Sylvyr
✭✭✭✭✭
I keep seeing threads or responses in threads (and also in game in zone chats) about how the vocal minority is ruining this game.
This is NOT directed to those that are upset about ZoS listening too much or implementing too many changes that are seen to appease the vocal minority but this is directed to those that are directing their anger to people that are vocal and appear to be in a minority.
(I'll try to make this well organized so it's as clear as possible)
1) Who is in this vocal minority? Is there some test to see who is in the minority and who is in the majority?
1.1) Regarding the "vocal" part - if you don't count the non-vocal, how do you know that their views are in the minority or majority?
2) Are those complaining about the vocal minority themselves in a vocal minority or majority?
3) Can those in the minority offer solid or positive or constructive criticism and ideas for the direction of the game?
3.1) Is the minority always wrong? (if it can even be determined that they are in the minority as per 1 and 1.1))
3.1.1) How do you determine if they are wrong?
3.1.1.1) By numbers? If so, if this is only determined by "vocality" (similar to issues in 1.1) how do you know if the total majority of both vocal and nonvocal outnumbers the total minority both vocal and nonvocal?
Pointing the finger at the vocal minority does nothing but
- Add to more baseless complaining (and complaining about complainers no less (does that make it a "better" complaint?)).
- - Are there "better" complaints than others? Yes: They include:
- - - Being centered around something tangible/workable. (If not then what can be done about it?)
- - - Often times but not always: Offering a possible solution or direction. (If not then it inhibits moving forward)
- - - Have some importance, that is, being relevant to the issue. (If not, what's the freakin point?)
- Wastes time and detracts from real discussions about issues.
- Sets up an antagonistic relationship with those that might want to be vocal about something but may feel afraid to speak up because they might get labeled as one of those "vocal minority" posters that is seen as part of the reason why ESO has so many problems.
If ZoS:
- Has any idea of how to make a successful MMO (in general);
- Has the understanding of how to make this MMO in line with Elder Scrolls games and ES fans;
- Has the ability to think critically and place different values on feedback and ideas and put them in line with their vision and direction;
- Has the resources to do the above...
Then one would think of all the feedback that ZoS gets, regardless if it comes from a minority perspective or majority, louder or not, with more frequency or not, will get sorted out properly. If ZoS doesn't have the above then problems certainly will arise.
But quit hating on people for being vocal, if they argue a little or a lot, post a little or a lot, it doesn't matter (as long as they aren't being a jerk of course) - it's up to ZoS to figure it out based on the above.
And if they want to listen to nobody, or a few people, or only those on the forums, or send out mass polls to gather a numbers perspective, or whatever segment, that's up to them. It isn't any customers fault here for pushing anything on ZoS.
Also, ease up on adding the "minority" tag to this. Putting a negative stigma on whether or not something comes from a minority generally detracts from the real issues. In some cases, it might matter if it's a majority or minority but really it should be about the issue/topic itself and how it affects the game for better or worse. And yes that may involve numbers but again that's up to ZoS to decide, not for us to flame each other over and conveniently point the blame to the people that are in the "vocal minority".
This is NOT directed to those that are upset about ZoS listening too much or implementing too many changes that are seen to appease the vocal minority but this is directed to those that are directing their anger to people that are vocal and appear to be in a minority.
(I'll try to make this well organized so it's as clear as possible)
1) Who is in this vocal minority? Is there some test to see who is in the minority and who is in the majority?
1.1) Regarding the "vocal" part - if you don't count the non-vocal, how do you know that their views are in the minority or majority?
2) Are those complaining about the vocal minority themselves in a vocal minority or majority?
3) Can those in the minority offer solid or positive or constructive criticism and ideas for the direction of the game?
3.1) Is the minority always wrong? (if it can even be determined that they are in the minority as per 1 and 1.1))
3.1.1) How do you determine if they are wrong?
3.1.1.1) By numbers? If so, if this is only determined by "vocality" (similar to issues in 1.1) how do you know if the total majority of both vocal and nonvocal outnumbers the total minority both vocal and nonvocal?
Pointing the finger at the vocal minority does nothing but
- Add to more baseless complaining (and complaining about complainers no less (does that make it a "better" complaint?)).
- - Are there "better" complaints than others? Yes: They include:
- - - Being centered around something tangible/workable. (If not then what can be done about it?)
- - - Often times but not always: Offering a possible solution or direction. (If not then it inhibits moving forward)
- - - Have some importance, that is, being relevant to the issue. (If not, what's the freakin point?)
- Wastes time and detracts from real discussions about issues.
- Sets up an antagonistic relationship with those that might want to be vocal about something but may feel afraid to speak up because they might get labeled as one of those "vocal minority" posters that is seen as part of the reason why ESO has so many problems.
If ZoS:
- Has any idea of how to make a successful MMO (in general);
- Has the understanding of how to make this MMO in line with Elder Scrolls games and ES fans;
- Has the ability to think critically and place different values on feedback and ideas and put them in line with their vision and direction;
- Has the resources to do the above...
Then one would think of all the feedback that ZoS gets, regardless if it comes from a minority perspective or majority, louder or not, with more frequency or not, will get sorted out properly. If ZoS doesn't have the above then problems certainly will arise.
But quit hating on people for being vocal, if they argue a little or a lot, post a little or a lot, it doesn't matter (as long as they aren't being a jerk of course) - it's up to ZoS to figure it out based on the above.
And if they want to listen to nobody, or a few people, or only those on the forums, or send out mass polls to gather a numbers perspective, or whatever segment, that's up to them. It isn't any customers fault here for pushing anything on ZoS.
Also, ease up on adding the "minority" tag to this. Putting a negative stigma on whether or not something comes from a minority generally detracts from the real issues. In some cases, it might matter if it's a majority or minority but really it should be about the issue/topic itself and how it affects the game for better or worse. And yes that may involve numbers but again that's up to ZoS to decide, not for us to flame each other over and conveniently point the blame to the people that are in the "vocal minority".
Badge: Wall-of-Text GRANDMASTER
PvP: Patch Vs. Player
ZoSence (n.):
1) What is reasonable or comprehensive using ZoS logic. "That makes ZoSense"
2) Making zero sense. "That makes ZoSense"
PvP: Patch Vs. Player
ZoSence (n.):
1) What is reasonable or comprehensive using ZoS logic. "That makes ZoSense"
2) Making zero sense. "That makes ZoSense"
15
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vovus69✭✭✭✭minority is always wrong. Especially that loud and whining as PVP/group minority. I hope ZOS will listen less to them and will develop more content for silent majority who does PVE and solo content. That would be awesome."If I'll need your opinion, I'll give one to you" - Rivenspire6
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Soulshine✭✭✭✭✭
✭The truth is that everyone here voicing an opinion is a minority of the players whether you are PvP, PvE or something in between.
There are many that never post here, post only on other forums they deem better, or simply don't like forum posting in the first place and so their concerns and issues are not seen anyplace.2 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Much rage there is in this thread.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
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V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)6 -
Seraphyel✭✭✭✭✭minority is always wrong. Especially that loud and whining as PVP/group minority. I hope ZOS will listen less to them and will develop more content for silent majority who does PVE and solo content. That would be awesome.
You realize ESO was marketed as the new PvP-MMO-Messiah before the release? They praised AvAvA to the skies.
And you realize after launch Zenimax did and delivered NOTHING for those PvP players? They did a 180° turn from one day to another.10 -
yodased✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭minority is always wrong. Especially that loud and whining as PVP/group minority. I hope ZOS will listen less to them and will develop more content for silent majority who does PVE and solo content. That would be awesome.
Well, lets not say always http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964
That being said, the issue I believe that people have with THIS particular minority is they are self serving for their subset.
It would be like if MLK jr wanted equality for African Americans, but said screw Mexican Americans let them get their own fight.
The ones that scream the loudest are by and large those that do not represent the overall longevity of the game. The majority rarely speaks, and when it does it will be either the death or life of the game.
ZOS in my opinion should hear all complaints/concerns/recommendations but listen to none of them. They should form their own opinion and postulate ideas based on the collected information they have in front of them.
I.E. the craglorn nerf. They ran a script in their database that identified people getting XP/CP significantly faster than they intended/wanted them to. So they shut it down.
They saw people getting stacked buffs in cyrodil, don't know how it was working so shut that part of the game off until they can fix it.
The thing thats funny is the majority of small bugs and issues in the game have gone unfixed this entire time, although they affect everyone.
Things like leader bug, Keep/postern doors, skill bugs, health desynchs, horses stopping moving, and many many others sit in the to do pile because they want to make sure that the jesus beam gets fixed or that dk's can't dragonleap on to keeps.
The priority is borked and I think people want to see the overall game improve, not one aspect of it, which is why they don't want specific people to be listened to as to when what gets 'fixed'
A bit rambling there, but you get the idea.Tl;dr really weigh the fun you have in game vs the business practices you are supporting.3 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭minority is always wrong. Especially that loud and whining as PVP/group minority. I hope ZOS will listen less to them and will develop more content for silent majority who does PVE and solo content. That would be awesome.
I'm pretty sure that you have just perfectly illustrated the OP's point and in doing so have actually proven it right.:trollin:4 -
vovus69✭✭✭✭Well, MMO who praises PVP says to you that they don't have money to develop content, so players should entertain themselves. In case of ZOS it was a mistake. They have a bunch of content and don't need PVP mindless crowd for the game. These guys will always be in the game for short period of time and will go to the new pvp ground. There is NOTHING that will please them. So the hell with them. The sooner ZOS will understand it will be better for all."If I'll need your opinion, I'll give one to you" - Rivenspire3
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firstdecan✭✭✭✭✭
✭"The vocal minority" is just the latest whine by a vocal minority who are counter whining about the state of the game. The moment you see that as an argument in a debate, just assume the poster is mentally bereft and has no other basis upon which to formulate an argument. The people who are using that as a counter argument may as well start talking about "the vast right wing \ left wing conspiracy."
There is one thread that probably has the right tone, and the summary of that thread is: the community are not game designers, and as such any changes made to the game based on community feedback should be appropriately tempered for game balance. Unfortunately, that thread has left other posters feeling empowered to use the "vocal minority" as an excuse to vocalize their own myopic opinions.
People seem to quickly forget that a "vocal minority" are other players who have been supporting the game, and once the dissatisfaction is high enough they will no longer be other players. I don't see how that's a positive thing for the community or the game.0 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The truth is that everyone here voicing an opinion is a minority of the players whether you are PvP, PvE or something in between.
There are many that never post here, post only on other forums they deem better, or simply don't like forum posting in the first place and so their concerns and issues are not seen anyplace.
There is nothing stopping them from voicing it though. 36% of eligible Americans vote. They can't complain that the "vocal minority" is establishing policy when they are not doing anything to exercise their own right.:trollin:1 -
minority is always wrong. Especially that loud and whining as PVP/group minority. I hope ZOS will listen less to them and will develop more content for silent majority who does PVE and solo content. That would be awesome.
You realize ESO was marketed as the new PvP-MMO-Messiah before the release? They praised AvAvA to the skies.
And you realize after launch Zenimax did and delivered NOTHING for those PvP players? They did a 180° turn from one day to another.
Exactly! If you want PvE and do solo content go play Skyrim! PvP is what the majority of my friends (my Friends list is full BTW) bought the game for. Hardly anyone i know bought this game to PvE. It is a PvP MMO... Or so we were led to believe.
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vovus69✭✭✭✭hey, this game is not a democracy. So I hope ZOS will listen less to these guys and get stick to the spellcrafting and solo content."If I'll need your opinion, I'll give one to you" - Rivenspire1
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Soulshine✭✭✭✭✭
✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »The truth is that everyone here voicing an opinion is a minority of the players whether you are PvP, PvE or something in between.
There are many that never post here, post only on other forums they deem better, or simply don't like forum posting in the first place and so their concerns and issues are not seen anyplace.
There is nothing stopping them from voicing it though. 36% of eligible Americans vote. They can't complain that the "vocal minority" is establishing policy when they are not doing anything to exercise their own right.
I wasn't claiming that they are -- in point of fact, merely pointing out that whatever their complaints may or may not be, they are not represented here and likely never will be. Again what voices are here are all in the minority in proportion to the player base.1 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well, MMO who praises PVP says to you that they don't have money to develop content, so players should entertain themselves. In case of ZOS it was a mistake. They have a bunch of content and don't need PVP mindless crowd for the game. These guys will always be in the game for short period of time and will go to the new pvp ground. There is NOTHING that will please them. So the hell with them. The sooner ZOS will understand it will be better for all.
What a well thought out and coherent argument. You're basically saying, "they like stuff I don't so they can go to hell". Does that about sum it up?:trollin:7 -
Nazon_Katts✭✭✭✭✭Vocal minority is a redundancy, since it'll always be a minority that speaks, no matter how big the movement, there'll be even more at home saying nothing. It's only purpose is to dismiss arguments and concerns without actually addressing them and used to undermine democratic powers. It's a propaganda term people should just stop using."You've probably figured that out by now. Let's hope so. Or we're in real trouble... and out come the intestines. And I skip rope with them!"3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Minority or majority... these are all random guesswork people throw around as facts
Funny, isn't it?
Regardless, here's a quote I like:
"The majority is always wrong; the minority is rarely right."Edited by DDuke on March 9, 2015 6:01PM3 -
Sylvyr✭✭✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »Much rage there is in this thread.
There is a lot of rage in general because this game has been such a rollercoaster, but to take it out on this so called vocal minority is just kind of... weak. Like beating your dog because you had a bad day at work or something and the dog didn't tell you that you got fired.
* Poster does not condone the abuse of animals. No harm has come to animals in the use of this example. And it was better than using a wife beating example (* Poster does not condone wife beating either)
Badge: Wall-of-Text GRANDMASTER
PvP: Patch Vs. Player
ZoSence (n.):
1) What is reasonable or comprehensive using ZoS logic. "That makes ZoSense"
2) Making zero sense. "That makes ZoSense"2 -
Sylvyr✭✭✭✭✭hmmm any game that hypes pvp is going fall on its face imo
Battlefield series seemed to do quite good. Eve Online as well. List goes on... just saying... but it's kind of O/T
Badge: Wall-of-Text GRANDMASTER
PvP: Patch Vs. Player
ZoSence (n.):
1) What is reasonable or comprehensive using ZoS logic. "That makes ZoSense"
2) Making zero sense. "That makes ZoSense"0 -
JD2013✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Too many cooks spoil the broth.Sweetrolls for all!
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Crafting bag OP! ZOS nerf pls!1 -
Sylvyr✭✭✭✭✭minority is always wrong. Especially that loud and whining as PVP/group minority. I hope ZOS will listen less to them and will develop more content for silent majority who does PVE and solo content. That would be awesome.
Well, lets not say always http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964
That being said, the issue I believe that people have with THIS particular minority is they are self serving for their subset.
It would be like if MLK jr wanted equality for African Americans, but said screw Mexican Americans let them get their own fight.
The ones that scream the loudest are by and large those that do not represent the overall longevity of the game. The majority rarely speaks, and when it does it will be either the death or life of the game.
ZOS in my opinion should hear all complaints/concerns/recommendations but listen to none of them. They should form their own opinion and postulate ideas based on the collected information they have in front of them.
I.E. the craglorn nerf. They ran a script in their database that identified people getting XP/CP significantly faster than they intended/wanted them to. So they shut it down.
They saw people getting stacked buffs in cyrodil, don't know how it was working so shut that part of the game off until they can fix it.
The thing thats funny is the majority of small bugs and issues in the game have gone unfixed this entire time, although they affect everyone.
Things like leader bug, Keep/postern doors, skill bugs, health desynchs, horses stopping moving, and many many others sit in the to do pile because they want to make sure that the jesus beam gets fixed or that dk's can't dragonleap on to keeps.
The priority is borked and I think people want to see the overall game improve, not one aspect of it, which is why they don't want specific people to be listened to as to when what gets 'fixed'
A bit rambling there, but you get the idea.
I was thinking the exact same thing! Minority is always wrong? What about civil rights? Or hey, how about the presidential electoral system? You do realize that electoral "representatives" for for president, not us (popular vote), they are a minority compared to population, they can't always be wrong can they? (Oh snap did I open up the door to politics?). People that were anti-slavery that fueled the civil were in the minority IIRC. I dunno, I think that dude was just trolling...
Self Serving:
This game has many elements, some people PvE and don't PvP, some craft some don't, etc etc. Sure people are going to want to better what interests them but referring to my original post, given all the feedback, covering multiple areas, it's up to ZoS to user their heads, and experience, and resources, to put the pieces in place that best serve the game and the vision. We can't stop people from arguing what they want from their perspective nor should we, but we can discuss how their wants might affect others in different areas and ways. But to flat out disregard all comments or just hate on people for advocating... meh..
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PvP: Patch Vs. Player
ZoSence (n.):
1) What is reasonable or comprehensive using ZoS logic. "That makes ZoSense"
2) Making zero sense. "That makes ZoSense"0 -
jelliedsoup✭✭✭✭✭If they're vocal then they're in a minority.
I will assume on this basis the silent majority is perfectly content.www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Ks8_KGHqmO40 -
Sylvyr✭✭✭✭✭Well, MMO who praises PVP says to you that they don't have money to develop content, so players should entertain themselves. In case of ZOS it was a mistake. They have a bunch of content and don't need PVP mindless crowd for the game. These guys will always be in the game for short period of time and will go to the new pvp ground. There is NOTHING that will please them. So the hell with them. The sooner ZOS will understand it will be better for all.
Nice troll. I'll fall for it only because I can further the point of my original post.
Some might argue that PvP requires more tactics, teamwork, planning, and execution in a dynamic environment that for example trials that have static mechanics and are more wash rinse repeat.
I balance PvE and PvP pretty close, so I see both sides. There are mindless crowds in both, as well as mindful. PvP players are IMHO harder to please this is true, because PvE is a lot easier to make "smooth" for the needs of PvErs.
Generalizing that they are all mindless is like saying the game is failing due to the vocal minority.
I think forum goers need to, in general, see trolling more clearly, and IMHO this vocal minority is ruining the game is one of the biggest trolls I've seen thus far.
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PvP: Patch Vs. Player
ZoSence (n.):
1) What is reasonable or comprehensive using ZoS logic. "That makes ZoSense"
2) Making zero sense. "That makes ZoSense"0 -
Sylvyr✭✭✭✭✭hey, this game is not a democracy. So I hope ZOS will listen less to these guys and get stick to the spellcrafting and solo content.
Wow, is that 2 trolls in a row for you Vovus? I'll give in again...
You are right in a way, democracy has nothing to do with it.
This is a game, that has customers. Because the game is ongoing and in development, feedback from customers is very important. It's not like they are selling hammers and we are buying them. Hammers don't need a whole of of development and likewise feedback for developing or expanding the hammer.
It's funny that you put in your "vote" for spellcrafting and solo content while you were at it though... Funny guy/gal.
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PvP: Patch Vs. Player
ZoSence (n.):
1) What is reasonable or comprehensive using ZoS logic. "That makes ZoSense"
2) Making zero sense. "That makes ZoSense"0 -
Sylvyr✭✭✭✭✭Nazon_Katts wrote: »Vocal minority is a redundancy, since it'll always be a minority that speaks, no matter how big the movement, there'll be even more at home saying nothing. It's only purpose is to dismiss arguments and concerns without actually addressing them and used to undermine democratic powers. It's a propaganda term people should just stop using.
Well it's not quite a redundancy and not always the minority that speaks (IIRC Vietnam war protesting hit a majority). But generally you are right, most people don't voice up just stay in their boxes.
You hit the nail on the head though, it's just a huge distractor and troll, which just adds more noise to the discussion, which makes it harder for ZoS and other players to help out.
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PvP: Patch Vs. Player
ZoSence (n.):
1) What is reasonable or comprehensive using ZoS logic. "That makes ZoSense"
2) Making zero sense. "That makes ZoSense"0 -
Sylvyr✭✭✭✭✭Minority or majority... these are all random guesswork people throw around as facts
Funny, isn't it?
Regardless, here's a quote I like:
"The majority is always wrong; the minority is rarely right."
Not really funny, but I think sadly only transparent to a minority of people LOL.
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PvP: Patch Vs. Player
ZoSence (n.):
1) What is reasonable or comprehensive using ZoS logic. "That makes ZoSense"
2) Making zero sense. "That makes ZoSense"0 -
Sylvyr✭✭✭✭✭Too many cooks spoil the broth.
If they are not aligned (have the same goals, can agree, compromise, work together, etc) then yeah.
But to have a successful restaurant whatever the cook or cooks do they need to get and process customer feedback or they end up on Gordon Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares.
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PvP: Patch Vs. Player
ZoSence (n.):
1) What is reasonable or comprehensive using ZoS logic. "That makes ZoSense"
2) Making zero sense. "That makes ZoSense"0 -
Sylvyr✭✭✭✭✭
I LOLed at work, thanks, I owe you a beer. I shouldn't be doing this at work.... but it's the best time to forum w****e.
Badge: Wall-of-Text GRANDMASTER
PvP: Patch Vs. Player
ZoSence (n.):
1) What is reasonable or comprehensive using ZoS logic. "That makes ZoSense"
2) Making zero sense. "That makes ZoSense"2 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I apologize if you thought I was disagreeing with you. I quoted you only so I could add my own point. Forgot QFT. I actually agree with you 100%.eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »The truth is that everyone here voicing an opinion is a minority of the players whether you are PvP, PvE or something in between.
There are many that never post here, post only on other forums they deem better, or simply don't like forum posting in the first place and so their concerns and issues are not seen anyplace.
There is nothing stopping them from voicing it though. 36% of eligible Americans vote. They can't complain that the "vocal minority" is establishing policy when they are not doing anything to exercise their own right.
I wasn't claiming that they are -- in point of fact, merely pointing out that whatever their complaints may or may not be, they are not represented here and likely never will be. Again what voices are here are all in the minority in proportion to the player base.
:trollin:0
