Current Gripe with Tanking in 1.6 After Playing for 5 Hours.

Personofsecrets

1. General

Stamina, magic, and health pools were nerfed. There is a sharp (not small as the patch note claims) increase in the cost of the magic undaunted taunt. There is an increase in cost of blocking. That magic taunt cost and heavy cost of blocking makes keeping a balanced resource pool tougher now.

In my opinion the above factors shoehorn tanks into using warlock, liberal use of tripots, 5/7 heavy armor, 3/3 block cost mitigation on jewelry, and heavy versions of the undaunted boss based 2 piece sets.

Undaunted 2 piece sets are a tanks bread and butter. I am fortunate enough to have a heavy helmet and shoulder of the Engine Guardian, but not everyone is. I know that because after spending 91 golden undaunted keys, AFTER the 1.6 patch, I got my first and only blood spawn shoulder, it was light armor, and I can't use it with warlock while maintaining a 5/7 heavy armor bonus so it is practically worthless.

The solution to this issue would be several steps. Lower the cost of the undaunted magic taunt by any means necessary, lower the cost of blocking slightly, and introduce a turn in system that let's people target the boss based helm and shoulder items that they want.

The consequences of keeping things as they are will lead to more tanks having resource problems while not necessarily understanding why and more tanks not being able to raid because they don't have that bread and butter gear. 800k for warlock rings and 90 days of undaunted dailies (and remember that is with the new doubled drop rate) isn't practical for the average or new player.

2. Dragonknights

Dragonknights are a good class to mitigate the above resource issues because of the earthen heart passive that grants back resources upon ultimate use. It will not be good if people feel like they can't tank with their other classes because resource management is better with that passive.

3. Conclusion

Players are going to have to do certain things more than ever. Additionally gearing is way tougher than necessary. After 800 hours (/play) I still can't do certain things gear wise and this is a huge barrier for players who are new or can't overcome the play wall.

Please post your own thoughts on this or why you think I have made an error.

Magus

I tanked with a dragonknight two vet pledges. Spindleclutch and Darkshade Caverns.

For Spindle, used 5 warlock (2 light + jewelry), 2 malubeth (1 heavy, 1 medium), 5 hist bark (3 heavy, 1h+s). I later realized that did not have the 5/5 heavy passive - doh. Ran low of magicka, stam was fine. Had to use stam taunt more than magick taunt.

For DC, used my 1.5 pvp gear, 5 warlock, 2 malubeth, 5 seducer. 1 heavy / 1 medium / 5 light, since this is more of a DPS dungeon. Had no resource issues but noticed stam dropped out more. Did all magicka taunt.

Only issue I had was my light armor teammates would get one-hit on boss mechanics. The fire aoe on DC from last boss, the jumping between on last boss on spindle 1-hit if they got caught not blocking.

Tip I have is have structured entropy up on everything. Healers have it hardest it seems. DPS need to be careful with mechanics now, it is less forgiving. Tanking didn't seem too bad or that different other than going wtf, why is everyone dead. I didn't lose aggro so it wasn't on me. I was able to pop ultimate and rez teammates when I was last one standing. Now if only I were still so powerful in PVP.... I actually felt more powerful in PVE than I did 1.5

omfgitsbatman

Magus wrote: »

Only issue I had was my light armor teammates would get one-hit on boss mechanics. The fire aoe on DC from last boss, the jumping between on last boss on spindle 1-hit if they got caught not blocking.

Tip I have is have structured entropy up on everything. Healers have it hardest it seems. DPS need to be careful with mechanics now, it is less forgiving. Tanking didn't seem too bad or that different other than going wtf, why is everyone dead. I didn't lose aggro so it wasn't on me. I was able to pop ultimate and rez teammates when I was last one standing. Now if only I were still so powerful in PVP.... I actually felt more powerful in PVE than I did 1.5

Tell your healers and Light Armor dps that if they wear 1 pc of heavy and 1 pc of medium, they will not only increase all of their resource pools, but greatly increase their survivability. When I switched from 7/7 LA to 5 LA, 1 Med, 1 Heavy, my armor went from 4.8k to 7.4k. I also noticed a substantial increase in my health and magika pools because of the undaunted passives.

Personofsecrets

Magus wrote: »

I tanked with a dragonknight two vet pledges. Spindleclutch and Darkshade Caverns.

For Spindle, used 5 warlock (2 light + jewelry), 2 malubeth (1 heavy, 1 medium), 5 hist bark (3 heavy, 1h+s). I later realized that did not have the 5/5 heavy passive - doh. Ran low of magicka, stam was fine. Had to use stam taunt more than magick taunt.

For DC, used my 1.5 pvp gear, 5 warlock, 2 malubeth, 5 seducer. 1 heavy / 1 medium / 5 light, since this is more of a DPS dungeon. Had no resource issues but noticed stam dropped out more. Did all magicka taunt.

Only issue I had was my light armor teammates would get one-hit on boss mechanics. The fire aoe on DC from last boss, the jumping between on last boss on spindle 1-hit if they got caught not blocking.

Tip I have is have structured entropy up on everything. Healers have it hardest it seems. DPS need to be careful with mechanics now, it is less forgiving. Tanking didn't seem too bad or that different other than going wtf, why is everyone dead. I didn't lose aggro so it wasn't on me. I was able to pop ultimate and rez teammates when I was last one standing. Now if only I were still so powerful in PVP.... I actually felt more powerful in PVE than I did 1.5

I think you describe the precarious situation very well. Now imagine if you were in Sanctum or VDSA instead of the vet pledges.

lathbury

nb tank here leeching strikes ftw

Personofsecrets

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Magus wrote: »

Only issue I had was my light armor teammates would get one-hit on boss mechanics. The fire aoe on DC from last boss, the jumping between on last boss on spindle 1-hit if they got caught not blocking.

Tip I have is have structured entropy up on everything. Healers have it hardest it seems. DPS need to be careful with mechanics now, it is less forgiving. Tanking didn't seem too bad or that different other than going wtf, why is everyone dead. I didn't lose aggro so it wasn't on me. I was able to pop ultimate and rez teammates when I was last one standing. Now if only I were still so powerful in PVP.... I actually felt more powerful in PVE than I did 1.5

Tell your healers and Light Armor dps that if they wear 1 pc of heavy and 1 pc of medium, they will not only increase all of their resource pools, but greatly increase their survivability. When I switched from 7/7 LA to 5 LA, 1 Med, 1 Heavy, my armor went from 4.8k to 7.4k. I also noticed a substantial increase in my health and magika pools because of the undaunted passives.

I know for sure that some of my DPS were doing this, but still having a hard time staying alive on content we would previously blow through. Have you tried vdsa yet?

Magus

I will add that as a tank, you get ultimate more with some of the changes, so that part is nice. I think the major change though is that some of the red aoe that people lazily stood in before and got healed through in 1.5, that won't work anymore.

Ommamar

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Magus wrote: »

Only issue I had was my light armor teammates would get one-hit on boss mechanics. The fire aoe on DC from last boss, the jumping between on last boss on spindle 1-hit if they got caught not blocking.

Tip I have is have structured entropy up on everything. Healers have it hardest it seems. DPS need to be careful with mechanics now, it is less forgiving. Tanking didn't seem too bad or that different other than going wtf, why is everyone dead. I didn't lose aggro so it wasn't on me. I was able to pop ultimate and rez teammates when I was last one standing. Now if only I were still so powerful in PVP.... I actually felt more powerful in PVE than I did 1.5

Tell your healers and Light Armor dps that if they wear 1 pc of heavy and 1 pc of medium, they will not only increase all of their resource pools, but greatly increase their survivability. When I switched from 7/7 LA to 5 LA, 1 Med, 1 Heavy, my armor went from 4.8k to 7.4k. I also noticed a substantial increase in my health and magika pools because of the undaunted passives.

Yah but what if you don't have the undaunted passives? That is one thing I noticed on test was resource management is huge but if you go to light on health you get one shotted. I have faith that this community will figure out the meta to get around the changes made.

Personofsecrets

Magus wrote: »

I will add that as a tank, you get ultimate more with some of the changes, so that part is nice. I think the major change though is that some of the red aoe that people lazily stood in before and got healed through in 1.5, that won't work anymore.

That ultimate generation you mention definitely makes the dk ult resource gain even more potent.

DeLindsay

I'm going to give my opinions on this matter as one of my Guild's regular Tanks for Vet Dungeons. I'm a VR14 NB who's MS is Tanking/Healing and my OS is DPS. I sit in full Legendary gear for my Tank setup with exception to my 3 Jewelry pcs which are VR14 Epic. I Tanked Vet EH last night (as a Vampire) and even the Bogdan fight was easy from a Tanking perspective. Keep in mind those of us in DD have ran these Dungeons so many times we could do them in our sleep and we know ALL the mechanics by heart. Here is my setup that I can 100% guarantee any person in ESO can achieve that will make Tanking easy for them (gear wise) for 1.6. BTW, I used the Undaunted sets previously but don't so far in 1.6 and I've had no issues whatsoever.

• 5pc Whitestrake's Retribution (could be any 5pc really, I just love that Shield).
• 4pc Alessia's Bulwark (double Armor set bonuses FTW).
• 3pc Footman's Fortune (Jewelry only).

All Crafted gear is Traited as follows:

Main pcs = Infused
Off pcs = (2) Reinforced, (2) Nirnhoned

Mundus = Many to choose from that actually benefit you without Soft caps.

Jewelry Glyphs = (2) Magicka cost reduction, (1) Shield Play.

Attributes = 31/31/0, I eat VR10 Epic Tri-Food.

Health Meta = 25K

---

Now a slightly more difficult setup to get (RNG/time/cost wise) that would actually be superior to the above setup and still give you Armor/Resist hard cap (with Major/Minor Wards up) at a loss of the Whitestrake's Shield would look like this:

• 5pc Footman's Fortune (including all 3 Jewelry pcs).
• 4pc Alessia's Bulwark (Shield + 3 Body pcs).
• 2pc Blood Spawn (Helm/Shoulder).
• Master 1H (as long as it has Defending on it).

As for changes in 1.6 that make Vet Dungeons too hard, I'm gonna have to disagree. Vet Dungeons aren't significantly more difficult than 1.5.8, you just have to pay a little more attention now and can't expect your previous Glass Canon DPS build to work now. Mitigation > Health for Tanks is now the meta, it doesn't matter how little Health you have (within reason) if you hardly take any damage. It's very likely that this will cause more pugs to wipe, at least for a few weeks. Once everyone gets up to speed on the new way of doing things it'll probably settle down to what it was 2 days ago.

deathmasterl_ESO

VR14 Imperial DK Tank here, currently doing alright I think on the tanking side of things.

5 Piece Hist Bark, and 4 Piece Vampires Kiss does pretty well in my books(don't have the money for nice jewelry) although I'm finding I do run low a bit faster now with Stamina and Magicka if I'm not careful, with that in mind I've been doing more light and heavy attacks, plus moving around now. Biggest problems I have had are being swarmed currently as that just drains resources pretty quick.

Robbmrp

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Magus wrote: »

Only issue I had was my light armor teammates would get one-hit on boss mechanics. The fire aoe on DC from last boss, the jumping between on last boss on spindle 1-hit if they got caught not blocking.

Tip I have is have structured entropy up on everything. Healers have it hardest it seems. DPS need to be careful with mechanics now, it is less forgiving. Tanking didn't seem too bad or that different other than going wtf, why is everyone dead. I didn't lose aggro so it wasn't on me. I was able to pop ultimate and rez teammates when I was last one standing. Now if only I were still so powerful in PVP.... I actually felt more powerful in PVE than I did 1.5

Tell your healers and Light Armor dps that if they wear 1 pc of heavy and 1 pc of medium, they will not only increase all of their resource pools, but greatly increase their survivability. When I switched from 7/7 LA to 5 LA, 1 Med, 1 Heavy, my armor went from 4.8k to 7.4k. I also noticed a substantial increase in my health and magika pools because of the undaunted passives.

In preparation for 1.6 and the squishiness of LA I moved to 2 heavy armor with 5 light. If I'm correct my armor level is 9830 after putting CP points into the LA armor increase. I upped that to 5%. I'm going to test out some dungeons tonight and see how my survivability is.

Jaerlach

The huge nerf of inner beast sucks, but otherwise it is manageable if you build correctly.

Try 2 medium anD block cost reduction and you'll notice a huge improvement.

People have already done vdsa and it wasn't too much worse. 5 footman, 5 hist bark, undaunted. For vdsa, 5 seducer.


Hist bark is a huge stamina management set. Every free dodge costs 0 stam.

Nivzruo_ESO

NB tank here, I roll 5/7 LA and 2 Heavy, warlock set & seducer, Sap & Siphon strikes with bats ult and I damn near solo vet dungeons, everyone else is just there to witness my awesomeness. Still works in 1.6.

DeLindsay

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Tell your healers and Light Armor dps that if they wear 1 pc of heavy and 1 pc of medium, they will not only increase all of their resource pools, but greatly increase their survivability. When I switched from 7/7 LA to 5 LA, 1 Med, 1 Heavy, my armor went from 4.8k to 7.4k. I also noticed a substantial increase in my health and magika pools because of the undaunted passives.

In 7/7 Light Armor while in my Healing gear or DPS gear I have 7K Armor. Not sure what you're wearing that's so low you only had 4.8K. I even only have 1 pt in the Light Armor Focus Star. It's not remotely worth losing the Passives in the Light Armor tree to gain a teeny tiny bit of Armor which btw is 1% per 650 so even going up by as much as you did only reduced your incoming damage by 4%. Also, the 2% increase per pc of different Armor is also not worth the loss of the those Passives. Having a Healer use Blessing or the Templar ring with the same Minor Wards which give 960 and can be easily rolled. You could also designate 1 spot on your bar for personal survival, which many are doing now in 1.6, Unstoppable alone gives you 5120 Armor/Resistance and is a nice Stam dump for Magicka users.

Nivzruo_ESO wrote: »

NB tank here, I roll 5/7 LA and 2 Heavy, warlock set & seducer, Sap & Siphon strikes with bats ult and I damn near solo vet dungeons, everyone else is just there to witness my awesomeness. Still works in 1.6.

Video proof or it never happened.

deathmasterl_ESO

Currently sitting at 20k for Spell Resistance and Armor with 7/7 Heavy Armor then again I'm a pure tank, without really any thoughts on DPS.

Personofsecrets

DeLindsay wrote: »

---

Now a slightly more difficult setup to get (RNG/time/cost wise) that would actually be superior to the above setup and still give you Armor/Resist hard cap (with Major/Minor Wards up) at a loss of the Whitestrake's Shield would look like this:

• 5pc Footman's Fortune (including all 3 Jewelry pcs).
• 4pc Alessia's Bulwark (Shield + 3 Body pcs).
• 2pc Blood Spawn (Helm/Shoulder).
• Master 1H (as long as it has Defending on it).

As for changes in 1.6 that make Vet Dungeons too hard, I'm gonna have to disagree. Vet Dungeons aren't significantly more difficult than 1.5.8, you just have to pay a little more attention now and can't expect your previous Glass Canon DPS build to work now. Mitigation > Health for Tanks is now the meta, it doesn't matter how little Health you have (within reason) if you hardly take any damage. It's very likely that this will cause more pugs to wipe, at least for a few weeks. Once everyone gets up to speed on the new way of doing things it'll probably settle down to what it was 2 days ago.

Alessia's Bulwark is interesting. How does the armor hardcap work?

DeLindsay

Best way to understand where you need to be for Hard cap in 1.6 is this:

Hard Cap: 32,500
Major Ward: 5120
Minor Ward: 960

Total required to achieve Hard cap in combat: 26,420 before Wards.

For 1.6, 1 Armor = 1 Resistance so if you get above 26,420 Armor then you will also have at least 26,420 Resistance. I was able to achieve this with my listed setup and only 3 pts in Heavy Armor Focus. Also one thing of note, I'm actually permanently Hard capped for Fire Resistance in my Tank gear and only 1.5% short of Hard cap for Spell Resistance even without Wards. That is in part because I Heal and DPS, both in Light Armor as a Vampire and need all the Fire Resist/Spell Resist I can get.

likewow777

Really great posts @DeLindsay ! Lots of ideas I want to try out, and thank you for the explanations!

Blocking costs have been the biggest issue for me, even after using CPs. I definitely heavy attack more than I used to, but since I'm a Templar tank, Blazing Shield buys me more than enough time for that or to light attack. And of course, if I have to heavy attack, now at least I generate ultimate

WhiskyBob

Tanking is effortless with ultimate generation you can get with tank (wearing a bloodspawn set using crippling slash).

Shields shields shields.
Im currently on 40 health 22 stamina 0 magica, mostly enchanted for health with stamina mundus stone.
Used sets:
5 Shalidors CUrse (prolly will change to torugs pact for more shields)
5 footman
2 bloodspawn

Skills: Razor Armor (shield morph) Igneous Shield, Ransack (its WAY cheaper than Inner Beast), crippling slash, defensive posture and structured entropy. Ultimate: ferocious leap

on second bar: dual wield for blade cloak and some utility gems like coagulating blood (its good because it doesnt block buff you get from Tripots) and corrosive armor ult

My healer is usually a mage - endless magica, amazing healing with healing springs.

Done all vet dungeons today including city of ash and was a cake walk. Altho its harder to keep control over big groups cause stamina version of inner beast is twice as expensive as ransack.
Didnt do vet. arena tho.

Soriana

Ran vet Spindle last night with my tank, 5 pc's legendary Hist Bark, 2 pc's legendary footman with the 3 pc purple jewelry set. My ultimate generation was phenomenal...completely opposite what I was expecting. During the final battle with Winterbourne I was able to use my ultimate 4 times. Previously I would have only been able to use it once, and that's if I saved it up before entering the room!

I felt like the only thing I was constantly low on was stamina; with a healer throwing the stamina stripper poles, it wouldn't have been an issue at all.

I am pleasantly surprised and pleased with the update.

DeLindsay

Soriana wrote: »

My ultimate generation was phenomenal...completely opposite what I was expecting. During the final battle with Winterbourne I was able to use my ultimate 4 times. Previously I would have only been able to use it once, and that's if I saved it up before entering the room!

This is the other thing we're noticing for end game content (not grinding) is that Ultimate generation is amazing now. It's FAR faster for tanks and a little faster for DPS/Healers. I always used to Light Attack once every 8 seconds in between Boss attacks to get my Shield up so the Ult change made no difference to me. Now how fast I grind up 200 Ult even impressed me, and I tested it pretty well on PTS, it still seems faster on Live. Just goes to show that reading patch notes for upcoming changes and actually experiencing said changes are 2 different beasts entirely.

Sandmanninja

Magus wrote: »

Tell your healers and Light Armor dps that if they wear 1 pc of heavy and 1 pc of medium, they will not only increase all of their resource pools, but greatly increase their survivability. When I switched from 7/7 LA to 5 LA, 1 Med, 1 Heavy, my armor went from 4.8k to 7.4k. I also noticed a substantial increase in my health and magika pools because of the undaunted passives.

Quick test on my Templar healer/dps.

ARMOR:
all cloth: 3389
cloth and 1 leather: 4412
cloth and 1 leather & 1 plate: 5102


MAGICKA REGEN:
all cloth: 1551
cloth and 1 leather: 1498
cloth and 1 leather & 1 plate: 1297


MAX MAGICKA:
all cloth: 14193
cloth and 1 leather: 14179
cloth and 1 leather & 1 plate: 14192