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1.6 and Medium Armor/Stamina Builds - One last final observation
RinaldoGandolphi
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Why do Stamina builds get 2 multi-tier cost reduction passives?
1. They get Wind Walker - two tiers reduces stamina cost of abilities by 3% per each piece of Med Armor equipped.
2. All Stamina Weapons (Bow, One handed, Two handed, and Dual wield) All get a multi-tier cost reduction on that weapon's abilities.
I don't see how this is balanced or fair at all. Stamina Weapons get two multi- tier Stamina Passive Cost reductions, Magic users get one. In essence Stamina users using any of the Stamina Weapons(Two handed, One Handed, Dual Wield, or Bow) have double the passive cost reduction passives a Magic user has. None of the Staff Abilities(Magic Weapons) reduce costs of the said abilities whatsoever.
So if i understand this right, Medium Armor and Two Handed, S&B, Bow, or Dual Wield, do the most damage(Except S&B) and cost the least amount to use...that sounds real appealing to game balance. Magic users have to invest more enchant spots on cost reduction, and will still have abilities that cost more and deal less damage.
I understand that right now on live, Light Armor is too powerful. Light Armor tanks should not have existed at all. Light Armor should be squishy to physical attacks, but they should be dealing the most amount of damage in return for being squishy. Right now, Light Armor looks like a death sentence to me in PVP, the damage mitigation stinks, its has inferior boosts to damage compared to Med armor.
In my observations, the Stamina crowd whined and got what they wanted with the Damage Shield Nerf. This will ensure any caster in Light Armor is dead in short order and a sitting duck, while Stamina users can take 1.5 times as much damage, deal about 1.7x as much damage, and have more passive cost reductions then Magic users, and to rub salt in the wound further they deal more damage for cheaper costs, and ca dodge roll cheaper to boot as extra gravy.
No one has brought this up, So i thought I would...i figure it won't matter anyways. Its crystal clear to me that stamina users are intended to have the deck stacked in their favor considerably in PVP by design, which is a shame, because Light Armor could have had its tank qualities taken away while still being useful, right now Light Armor is useless for all intents and purposes.
I guess i'll just have to level Med Armor and a Stamina Weapon i guess and use magic as support, because being a light armored caster in this game IMO is dead, unless you like dying because someone sneezes on you while doing mediocre damage.
thoughts? please be share, this needs to be discussed, agree or disagree, thats what this forum is for. Debate can only make things better, not worse.
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Rook_Master✭✭✭✭✭Well written post. I also believe that Medium will be the new meta for the individual player in Cyrodiil.
Of course, well-run groups will have dedicated healers etc., but your point is still valid for the average player.0 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭well, i've been a full leather stamina build since 1.3... those two tiers of cost reduction have been there a while, yet resource management has always been the most challenging aspect of playing a stamina build, and that hasn't changed in 1.6 unless you're a bosmer... magic users typically get their second tier of cost reduction from seducer set if they need it, stamina users have great gear options for damage, but not much in the way of sustain
the dueling environment of the pts favors melee stamina builds, but how many medium armor melee players in open world AvA are going to be able to get in close enough to do serious damage without dying? block casting is not viable unless you wear heavy and spec into it, shield and heal options are very limited, you can't attack while rolling, and it's not like it's going to save you from siege, aoe, and templar beam cannons
magic builds have a lot more options in terms of ranged combat, aoe abilities, shields and heals (healing ward is the best uh-oh button in the game still), so i would expect them to continue to be successful in AvA, you need more than single target burst dps to take a defended keep... rook is probably right about the solo pvp meta, i see it shifting away from 1h/s light armor permablock mage tank and towards medium armor 2h/bow burst-n-dodge builds... but expect the maneuverability of magicka sorcs and nbs to still be popular with solo playersRetired until we break the Tank Meta8 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
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Why do Stamina builds get 2 multi-tier cost reduction passives?
1. They get Wind Walker - two tiers reduces stamina cost of abilities by 3% per each piece of Med Armor equipped.
2. All Stamina Weapons (Bow, One handed, Two handed, and Dual wield) All get a multi-tier cost reduction on that weapon's abilities.
Let's not forget that Stamina Cost-Reduction Enchants affect both Stamina abilities *and* Dodge rolling which is total BS.
There are already people who can virtually dodge roll forever on live....wait until 1.6
This is going to be PvP soon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIx1NCvb5TU
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Dyride✭✭✭✭✭As Xylena mentions, Stamina resource management isn't easy.
Yeah you can weave heavy attacks, but any blocking/dodging is eating straight into your damage-dealing resource. Especially blocking, which will be very different for both medium and light armor users.V Є H Є M Є И C Є
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WhiskeyJac✭✭✭the fact that dodge rolling , sneaking , running and blocking costs stamina is a very good reason for the double reduction12 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭well, i've been a full leather stamina build since 1.3... those two tiers of cost reduction have been there a while, yet resource management has always been the most challenging aspect of playing a stamina build, and that hasn't changed in 1.6 unless you're a bosmer... magic users typically get their second tier of cost reduction from seducer set if they need it, stamina users have great gear options for damage, but not much in the way of sustain
Perhaps, you bring up good points. I left gear out such as Seducer because not everyone runs Seducer, and running Seducer also means you can't run a set that does more damage. Stamina builds get double the cost reduction passives, and much more flexibility on gear leaving them with much more options with more damaging abilities at a cheaper cost.
Resource management is just as much a challenge for Magic users as it for Stamina, especially Stamina as Magic users in PVP are penalized for not investing much in stamina as without it your out of it quickly and dead. Its not a big deal if Stamina users run out of Magic, as its not an instant death sentence for them, a caster runs out of Stamina, they are pretty much done.
A magic user can't invest heavy into stamina because then they won't do enough damage or have enough magic to cast, but Stamina users can use Magic as utility, and running out of Magic doesn't really hurt them as they have dodge roll and other ways of mitigating damage that Magic users don't have as no magic = no shield or heal = death for light armor caster.
The bottom line is running out of either magic or stamina for a light armor caster = death. A Medium Armor Stamina build can still use magic as general purpose utility, and running out of it won't be the cause of his death, but a caster runs out of either Stamina or Magic and they are dead.Considering a Sorc can't spec Stamina, it makes this imbalance even more apparent and makes magic users easier to kill as running out of either resource and we are dead, stamina users only need to run out of stamina which they have a very high comparable advnatage in reduced cost.Edited by RinaldoGandolphi on March 2, 2015 6:47PMRinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
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Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭WhiskeyJac wrote: »the fact that dodge rolling , sneaking , running and blocking costs stamina is a very good reason for the double reduction
Then as @woodsro pointed out, weapon abilities shouldn't be the most efficient abilities in the game.
Cost reduction is additive which means their compounding effect has increasing returns.
In 1.6 you can get an absurd amount of reduction to both weapon abilities and more importantly Dodge rolls. There is no reason a dodge roll should be able to be reduced to something like 15% of it's base cost, yet that is exactly what is possible with Medium Armor, Champion Points, and Stamina reduction glyphs.
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RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭WhiskeyJac wrote: »the fact that dodge rolling , sneaking , running and blocking costs stamina is a very good reason for the double reduction
Because magic casters never need to dodge roll, sneak, block, or run either. Ball of Lighting does no damage, only a stun, but still costs way more resources then a Med Armor dodge roll. That as @Ezareth pointed out, folks can spam dodge roll forever.
The crux remains the same:
Stamina users can run out of magic and it will rarely be the cause of their death.
Magic users run out of either magic or stamina and they are dead.
The fact that 1 meta(magic) dies when running out of either resource vs the other meta(stamina) will really only die if he runs out of 1(stamina) is imbalance at its finest considering Stamina gets nearly a 50% decrease in the cost of stamina based abilities in comparison to their magic counterparts in passive cost reductions not counting the Champ system.
Using the Sorc class as an example, we got this even worse since we lost our Expert Mage cost reduction and were given a lackluster Spell Damage increase that really amounts to nothing in return. Imagine Wind Walker being changed to give you weapon damage and having your cost reduction taken away..would stink wouldn't it? of course it would.
As i said, i see the deck being stacked considerably in the favor of Stamina in PVP. It will take twice the skill level of a caster build to beat his stamina counterparts due to lack luster damage mitigation, increased cost of abilities, abilities that do less damge, and the resource disparity of being saddled with instant death when out of either stamina or magic, where stamina can get by if they run out of magic needing to only run out of 1 resource.
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"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak1 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ezareth_ESO wrote: »WhiskeyJac wrote: »the fact that dodge rolling , sneaking , running and blocking costs stamina is a very good reason for the double reduction
Then as @woodsro pointed out, weapon abilities shouldn't be the most efficient abilities in the game.
Cost reduction is additive which means their compounding effect has increasing returns.
In 1.6 you can get an absurd amount of reduction to both weapon abilities and more importantly Dodge rolls. There is no reason a dodge roll should be able to be reduced to something like 15% of it's base cost, yet that is exactly what is possible with Medium Armor, Champion Points, and Stamina reduction glyphs.
@ezareth_ESO Exactly! Taking into account the additive cost reduction, and how dodge roll cost can be reduced so much, Stamina is just flat out more efficient in every single way and a Stamina user will spend much less Stamina to kill someone then the Magic user has to. The efficiency of Stamina in 1.6 is over the top, most efficient and most damaging by a longshot, the fact they can get dodge roll so cheap as well is icing on the cake.
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Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak0 -
xylena✭✭✭✭✭the other day someone called me "the ezareth of DKs" which makes this thread really funny... don't worry i took it as a compliment :PStamina is just flat out more efficient in every single way
aoe damage, ranged attacks, heals, shields... four significant areas that are definitely still stronger for magic builds... is it really so bad that stamina builds are better at dodging and single target melee burst?
also stamina builds do in fact need magic to survive... what do you think happens to a stamina NB that can't cloak, or a stamina DK that can't put up igneous shield or reflect? sure they might be able to roll across the map to escape danger, but in a keep or large zerg battle with nowhere to run, they very quickly die to aoe and enemies focusing range attacks on themRetired until we break the Tank Meta3 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ehm... it's cost reduction passives for the skills in that weapon tree only. So if you balance the cost of the weapon abilities with the passive, the passive is a must have if you want to use that weapon and not overpowered.
If you want to show that stamina skills have to low cost, you have to specifically compare them to magicka abilities and actually try playing a stamina build.
I for one do not think the stamina cost is to low, I think Uppercut does slightly to much damage and Brawler gives a to big damage shield that's it.DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
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Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭the other day someone called me "the ezareth of DKs" which makes this thread really funny... don't worry i took it as a compliment :PStamina is just flat out more efficient in every single way
aoe damage, ranged attacks, heals, shields... four significant areas that are definitely still stronger for magic builds... is it really so bad that stamina builds are better at dodging and single target melee burst?
also stamina builds do in fact need magic to survive... what do you think happens to a stamina NB that can't cloak, or a stamina DK that can't put up igneous shield or reflect? sure they might be able to roll across the map to escape danger, but in a keep or large zerg battle with nowhere to run, they very quickly die to aoe and enemies focusing range attacks on them
That was just one of my NM fan boys. Those guys foam at the mouth for any opportunity to slight me somehow for some reason. I took it as a compliment too as you've come a long way and are a damn monster to fight, you killed me on PTS as well I believe ( =
I think Bow DPS is the best ranged DPS by far unless there is something I'm missing really. The range, damage and sustainability of spamming lethal arrow is nothing as good as something a sorc can output, plus it (and all other physical attacks) get a stealth guaranteed crit bonus which in 1.6 is hug.
A stam build who runs out of magicka is still hurting for sure, but being unable to block or break free is death no matter who you are. I often get invasioned after just stacking all of my shields with full health and will try to outlast the stun to save the stamina cost of break free....however often my shields get ripped through so fast I have to break free prematurely just to avoid being killed during the course of a single knockdown. It will be worse in 1.6 with the nerfs to "health" (Impen/Bonus Health nerf).
Lastly people should really look at the perks in the champion system. There are far more perks dedicated to stamina builds and none really that do anything useful for a magicka build other than the 12% crit (which has a physical damage counterpart).
The Stamina abilities reduced by 80% after breaking free for 8 seconds perk is just freaking stupid. When people get that you may as well just make stamina abilities free. I have no idea how anyone though that perk was a good idea...
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Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Well as a full on stamina build i have no access to a good self heal nor can i spam/stack damage shields,(especially considering the fact I am a NB) So I myself tend to ignore these complaints. Magic users get great heals, damage shields, and better AOE, I get better dodging and single target DPS, I see that as a fair trade.
But I do get what you are saying. I have always wondered if the fact that stamina users having double cost reductions would ever be a problem, and now it seems it very well could be.
Do not trust PTS results, all those CPs given destroyed any kind of balance and skewed many of the results. Lets wait for 1.6 tomorrow and see how it plays out over the next few weeks.Edited by Cody on March 3, 2015 3:28AM3 -
Cody✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ezareth_ESO wrote: »WhiskeyJac wrote: »the fact that dodge rolling , sneaking , running and blocking costs stamina is a very good reason for the double reduction
Then as @woodsro pointed out, weapon abilities shouldn't be the most efficient abilities in the game.
Cost reduction is additive which means their compounding effect has increasing returns.
In 1.6 you can get an absurd amount of reduction to both weapon abilities and more importantly Dodge rolls. There is no reason a dodge roll should be able to be reduced to something like 15% of it's base cost, yet that is exactly what is possible with Medium Armor, Champion Points, and Stamina reduction glyphs.
@ezareth_ESO Exactly! Taking into account the additive cost reduction, and how dodge roll cost can be reduced so much, Stamina is just flat out more efficient in every single way and a Stamina user will spend much less Stamina to kill someone then the Magic user has to. The efficiency of Stamina in 1.6 is over the top, most efficient and most damaging by a longshot, the fact they can get dodge roll so cheap as well is icing on the cake.
stamina can't heal
stamina can't create a damage shield
stamina can't put out as effective AOE as magicka can
Stamina does not have the ranged capability that magicka does(and do not say snipe is the best ranged ability; it is not. It has a cast time and is inturruptible; snipers are utterly helpless against crushing shock spammers and venom arrow spammers)
magicka still does better in quite a few areas than stamina; I sure as heck don't expect to see any stamina based healers; so no, stamina is not "better in every way"
(and do not try to pass vigor off as the best heal in the game; it is not, it is an HoT with a relatively short radius)Edited by Cody on March 3, 2015 3:33AM2 -
KBKB✭✭✭✭✭
✭WhiskeyJac wrote: »the fact that dodge rolling , sneaking , running and blocking costs stamina is a very good reason for the double reduction
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IxSTALKERxI✭✭✭✭✭
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Vigor, Rally.stamina can't heal
Bone Shield, Brawler.stamina can't create a damage shield
Steel Tornado, Bombard, even power extraction.stamina can't put out as effective AOE as magicka can
Light attack + venom arrow, Hidden Blade, Caltrops, plus 3 stamina based gap closers if you include ambush.Stamina does not have the ranged capability that magicka does(and do not say snipe is the best ranged ability; it is not. It has a cast time and is inturruptible; snipers are utterly helpless against crushing shock spammers and venom arrow spammers)
You're in for a surpriseI sure as heck don't expect to see any stamina based healers
(can't go into details though, especially since you're EP!)
It can be morphed to have a 15m radius which covers more then half an inner keep.(and do not try to pass vigor off as the best heal in the game; it is not, it is an HoT with a relatively short radius)
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
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Oughash✭✭✭✭What stalker said. There are even a few he missed! (E.g. Shielded assault) also, igneous shield plus vigor plus CP passives is a monstrous AoE heal.
It is worth noting that there is only one good crafted set for stamina builds, while there are a few for magicka.0 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭ezareth_ESO wrote: »
Why do Stamina builds get 2 multi-tier cost reduction passives?
1. They get Wind Walker - two tiers reduces stamina cost of abilities by 3% per each piece of Med Armor equipped.
2. All Stamina Weapons (Bow, One handed, Two handed, and Dual wield) All get a multi-tier cost reduction on that weapon's abilities.
Let's not forget that Stamina Cost-Reduction Enchants affect both Stamina abilities *and* Dodge rolling which is total BS.
There are already people who can virtually dodge roll forever on live....wait until 1.6
This is going to be PvP soon:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIx1NCvb5TU
But lets be honest here in PVP.
When large groups are going toe to toe... pure stamina rely on server ticks for regen
My stamina simply never regens in such instances (by design or exploit)....so cost reduction Is often better for burst while you can.
+ I have to use annulment to block all the incoming spells using "magcika I don't have"...or using immovable to try and stop me being done using "stamina I cant afford to spare" as its used for blocking and dodging too as well as attack and defense.
Clawing back stamina is not easy in drawn out fights unless you want to hide in the same spot and get ganked,
Heavy attacks are painfully slow.
I hear stamina regen Is improved a lot in 1.6. I hope so to even get an any kind of equal footing with magicka management.
It wont help though if my stamina bar sits at the same level in group fights.
You see we choose dodge roll "or" attack (stamina+stamina)....you choose dodge roll "and" attack (magicka+stamina)
You really don't give a damn when stamina runs out....you can still attack or defend with magicka.
We stand there helpless
...and magicka uses can still flit away in a cloud of lightining rather than dodge roll or block.Edited by Rune_Relic on March 3, 2015 3:29PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ezareth_ESO wrote: »...but being unable to block or break free is death no matter who you are.
The difference is that as a stamina build you drain yourself of the resource you so desperately need to survive by simply attacking. As a magicka build, you don't.
A stamina build has more stamina to begin with, but subtract the cost of his attacks, and what's left for defense may be even lower than what a magicka build has available.
I have 2500 stamina, and 1800 magicka. That's a 700 point difference. That means an inversely built magicka build (2500 mag, 1800 sta) has more stamina available for defense as soon as i spend 700 stamina on my attacks. And 700 stamina is spent in just a couple of seconds into the fight.0 -
WhiskeyJac✭✭✭Also as a duel wield I find it very difficult to use heavy attacks in the middle of all that aoe , while staves on other hand has it easy when it comes to heavy attacks and getting magicka back , just my opinion from playing my different toons not a statement1
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Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
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The Stamina abilities reduced by 80% after breaking free for 8 seconds perk is just freaking stupid. When people get that you may as well just make stamina abilities free. I have no idea how anyone though that perk was a good idea...
That is why it was reduced to 3 second duration a few PTS patches ago.You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points0 -
If u are stamina NB mitigation/avoidance and utilites ( buffs / debufs) should come from other resource than main one u use for making damage. If u use NB for group play in pvp - than stamina builds are totally ok . For dueling is different story - but if u look for balance in dueling u will wait a bit coz if they reached that point - arena would be already here.Edited by tino.antoninieb17_ESO on March 3, 2015 4:00PM0
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Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »But lets be honest here in PVP.
When large groups are going toe to toe... pure stamina rely on server ticks for regen
My stamina simply never regens in such instances (by design or exploit)....so cost reduction Is often better for burst while you can.
+ I have to use annulment to block all the incoming spells using "magcika I don't have"...or using immovable to try and stop me being done using "stamina I cant afford to spare" as its used for blocking and dodging too as well as attack and defense.
Clawing back stamina is not easy in drawn out fights unless you want to hide in the same spot and get ganked,
Heavy attacks are painfully slow.
I hear stamina regen Is improved a lot in 1.6. I hope so to even get an any kind of equal footing with magicka management.
It wont help though if my stamina bar sits at the same level in group fights.
You see we choose dodge roll "or" attack (stamina+stamina)....you choose dodge roll "and" attack (magicka+stamina)
You really don't give a damn when stamina runs out....you can still attack or defend with magicka.
We stand there helpless
...and magicka uses can still flit away in a cloud of lightining rather than dodge roll or block.ezareth_ESO wrote: »...but being unable to block or break free is death no matter who you are.
The difference is that as a stamina build you drain yourself of the resource you so desperately need to survive by simply attacking. As a magicka build, you don't.
A stamina build has more stamina to begin with, but subtract the cost of his attacks, and what's left for defense may be even lower than what a magicka build has available.
I have 2500 stamina, and 1800 magicka. That's a 700 point difference. That means an inversely built magicka build (2500 mag, 1800 sta) has more stamina available for defense as soon as i spend 700 stamina on my attacks. And 700 stamina is spent in just a couple of seconds into the fight.
I don't disagree with what you're both saying in live.
In 1.6 as you shall see it's different, especially when you start stacking some of the champion point bonuses and min-maxing on Stamina and Cost reduction.
Champion Point Regeneration Abilities are *multiplicative* not additive. This means you're able to get to an absurd amount of Stamina regeneration without really sacrificing anything and you're getting an exceptional amount of Cost reduction compared to Magicka abilities which no longer have a comparable path to reduce their costs.
Once you get that 80% stamina cost reduction passive after breaking free, the cost of your abilities will be 12.3% of their base.Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube1 -
Dreyloch✭✭✭✭✭
Why do Stamina builds get 2 multi-tier cost reduction passives?
1. They get Wind Walker - two tiers reduces stamina cost of abilities by 3% per each piece of Med Armor equipped.
2. All Stamina Weapons (Bow, One handed, Two handed, and Dual wield) All get a multi-tier cost reduction on that weapon's abilities.
I don't see how this is balanced or fair at all. Stamina Weapons get two multi- tier Stamina Passive Cost reductions, Magic users get one.
I stopped here because this looked like another thread about how Stam is boss now and magicka is gimped, and sorcs were nerfed etc etc cry, cry, and more cry...."The fear of Death, is often worse than death itself"0 -
SickDuck✭✭✭✭✭Not sure where the actual numbers OP is getting from but seems to have no grasp of reality.
Double cost reducers don't make any sense, they are just skill point wasters to get the skill to the cost to a reasonable level. It's not like they make the related weapon OP, rather just allow the player to use the skill for the cost it should be on the first place. Basically these passives are giving no real advantage, but must be purchased to get rid of the initial handicap.
In the end of the day cost doesn't matter, but sustainability. Stamina management is hard and not getting any better with 1.6 (even with bosmers, maybe with exception redguards). Also bare in mind stamina has less options to recharge innediatelly (Spell symmetry). And while people posting builds around 40k magicka, I haven't seen any build even getting to 30k stamina.
Not sure about the dodge rolling issue, maybe a bug. Last time I've checked it cost me 3k stamina to roll in full MA and 3x stamina cost enchi. Far from "forever". Not to mention the numerous times I've died cause the lack of stamina to roll or break-out.
80% stamina cost CS thingie was too powerful, but now got killed totally (30%, 8 sec would have been more use). Will we see the same for Magicka Well in the future? I doubt.
Oh and mentioning Vigor as a healing option while still tiny amount of people has access to it is just cruel...
My thoughts...Holdviola - Khira'de Regalo - Lélekvadász - Used To Be An Adventurer - Zetor - Does-Not-Give-A-Duck - Lord Sugar - Tenar Arha - Da'rinka - Violent Moon - Extreme Runner1 -
Draxys✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Why do Stamina builds get 2 multi-tier cost reduction passives?
1. They get Wind Walker - two tiers reduces stamina cost of abilities by 3% per each piece of Med Armor equipped.
2. All Stamina Weapons (Bow, One handed, Two handed, and Dual wield) All get a multi-tier cost reduction on that weapon's abilities.
I don't see how this is balanced or fair at all. Stamina Weapons get two multi- tier Stamina Passive Cost reductions, Magic users get one.
I stopped here because this looked like another thread about how Stam is boss now and magicka is gimped, and sorcs were nerfed etc etc cry, cry, and more cry....
grats2013
rip decibel0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Not sure where the actual numbers OP is getting from but seems to have no grasp of reality.
Double cost reducers don't make any sense, they are just skill point wasters to get the skill to the cost to a reasonable level. It's not like they make the related weapon OP, rather just allow the player to use the skill for the cost it should be on the first place. Basically these passives are giving no real advantage, but must be purchased to get rid of the initial handicap.
In the end of the day cost doesn't matter, but sustainability. Stamina management is hard and not getting any better with 1.6 (even with bosmers, maybe with exception redguards). Also bare in mind stamina has less options to recharge innediatelly (Spell symmetry). And while people posting builds around 40k magicka, I haven't seen any build even getting to 30k stamina.
Not sure about the dodge rolling issue, maybe a bug. Last time I've checked it cost me 3k stamina to roll in full MA and 3x stamina cost enchi. Far from "forever". Not to mention the numerous times I've died cause the lack of stamina to roll or break-out.
80% stamina cost CS thingie was too powerful, but now got killed totally (30%, 8 sec would have been more use). Will we see the same for Magicka Well in the future? I doubt.
Oh and mentioning Vigor as a healing option while still tiny amount of people has access to it is just cruel...
My thoughts...
This isn't quite true.
Lets say the intended "balance" of a stamina ability to cost 800 stamina such as you suggest. This means that the base cost of the ability would be 1000 with the 20% reduction passive bringing it to 800. The issue is with Medium Armor you get another 21% discount from the 1000 base, not the 800 true base and thus that 21% discount is in fact 20% more powerful due to the fact cost reduciton is additive.
Also on PTS with a template char it cost me 3729 to dodge roll. With 3 Stamina Cost reduction glyphs, max dodge roll reduction and Medium armor passives it cost 1785 stamina a dodge roll and I could roll infinitely with my basic stamina regeneration. Granted I wasn't doing damage or anything but giving every stamina user a limitless defense in the game as magicka users waste all their magicka trying to do damage to them is absurd. I'm basically forced to follow them around wasting magicka and hoping my velocious curse can kill them. At least a Bolt escaping sorc is rapidly drained of magicka while they are fleeing leaving them with nothing to fight with at the end.
Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube0 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭the other day someone called me "the ezareth of DKs" which makes this thread really funny... don't worry i took it as a compliment :PStamina is just flat out more efficient in every single way
aoe damage, ranged attacks, heals, shields... four significant areas that are definitely still stronger for magic builds... is it really so bad that stamina builds are better at dodging and single target melee burst?
also stamina builds do in fact need magic to survive... what do you think happens to a stamina NB that can't cloak, or a stamina DK that can't put up igneous shield or reflect? sure they might be able to roll across the map to escape danger, but in a keep or large zerg battle with nowhere to run, they very quickly die to aoe and enemies focusing range attacks on them
stamina is better at ae dmg[whirlwind > impulse/sap, arrow spray >wall of elements=path of darkness, volley > lightning splash(beside the current splas stack bug) =ash cloud > spear shards], singeltarget range burst (bow>sorc), singeltarget melee burst(simply no magica melee burst left as NBs lost their abilies to stamina), sustained melee dmg 2H >>>>all, sustained range dmg bow >all(comparable dmg while half the cost) .
the only aspect where stamina is weaker dmg wise than magica useres is in the petwar.
heals have been adjusted by the addition of vigor, and shields as well as every body has access to bone shield.Not sure where the actual numbers OP is getting from but seems to have no grasp of reality.
Double cost reducers don't make any sense, they are just skill point wasters to get the skill to the cost to a reasonable level. It's not like they make the related weapon OP, rather just allow the player to use the skill for the cost it should be on the first place. Basically these passives are giving no real advantage, but must be purchased to get rid of the initial handicap.
In the end of the day cost doesn't matter, but sustainability. Stamina management is hard and not getting any better with 1.6 (even with bosmers, maybe with exception redguards). Also bare in mind stamina has less options to recharge innediatelly (Spell symmetry). And while people posting builds around 40k magicka, I haven't seen any build even getting to 30k stamina.
Not sure about the dodge rolling issue, maybe a bug. Last time I've checked it cost me 3k stamina to roll in full MA and 3x stamina cost enchi. Far from "forever". Not to mention the numerous times I've died cause the lack of stamina to roll or break-out.
80% stamina cost CS thingie was too powerful, but now got killed totally (30%, 8 sec would have been more use). Will we see the same for Magicka Well in the future? I doubt.
Oh and mentioning Vigor as a healing option while still tiny amount of people has access to it is just cruel...
My thoughts...
This isn't quite true.
Lets say the intended "balance" of a stamina ability to cost 800 stamina such as you suggest. This means that the base cost of the ability would be 1000 with the 20% reduction passive bringing it to 800. The issue is with Medium Armor you get another 21% discount from the 1000 base, not the 800 true base and thus that 21% discount is in fact 20% more powerful due to the fact cost reduciton is additive.
Also on PTS with a template char it cost me 3729 to dodge roll. With 3 Stamina Cost reduction glyphs, max dodge roll reduction and Medium armor passives it cost 1785 stamina a dodge roll and I could roll infinitely with my basic stamina regeneration. Granted I wasn't doing damage or anything but giving every stamina user a limitless defense in the game as magicka users waste all their magicka trying to do damage to them is absurd. I'm basically forced to follow them around wasting magicka and hoping my velocious curse can kill them. At least a Bolt escaping sorc is rapidly drained of magicka while they are fleeing leaving them with nothing to fight with at the end.
a comparable nerf as added to BE needs to be added to roll dodging. every roll within a 3sec timeframe doubles its previous cost.
Edited by Tankqull on March 3, 2015 6:36PMspelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"1
