Lore: Khajiit breeds

Danikat · February 2015

(Sorry if this is in the wrong section, the lore forum has gone and this seemed the most appropriate.)

I know the appearance of Khajiit is determined by the phases of the moons, but I've always wondered, is it also genetic? Do Khajiit always/typically give birth to litters that are the same breed as they are? (Maybe like sea turtles when they become fertile and give birth matches the appropriate phase of the moons.)

Or is it possible for any female Khajiit to give birth to any breed? And if so how does that work with the huge size difference? Could an Alfiq (house cat size) give birth to a senche-raht (twice the size of an Altmer)? Surely that would kill them? Or are they all the same size at birth (presumably about the same size as house cat kittens) and the bigger ones grow faster and/or take longer to mature?

Runefell · February 2015

Apparently the khajiit are confusing to everybody who isn't khajiit.

I just read this book in game this morning. It explains things without really explaining anything...

The Moon Cats And Their Dance

Attributed to Clan Mother Ahnissi
A hairless scholar came from his desert to ours and said, "I want to know the truth about the Khajiit."
And the Clan Mother said, "Only one? You are not very curious, hairless scholar."
The hairless scholar peered at the Clan Mother through little windows on his nose and said, "I want to know about your different breeds. Is it true that what phase of the moons you are born under determines your physical morphology?"
And the Clan Mother said, "Indeed, hairless scholar. I was born as Jode was waxing and Jone was new, so I am an Omhes-raht. My daughter here was born when Jode was waxing and Jone was full, so she is a Senche-raht. Thus we are nothing alike."
The scholar peered at mother and daughter and said, "You look very much the same to me."
And the Clan Mother said, "I have heard that those with round pupils have poor vision. It is a sadness."
The hairless scholar tapped his chin and said, "I want to know about your so-called Lunar Lattice. Is it true that the phases of the moons regulate every aspect of your lives?"
And the Clan Mother said, "Indeed, hairless scholar. Today is Suthay, when Jode is new and Jone is new, and we never stir the stew winter-shines."
The hairless scholar blinked and said, "You mean withershins, or retrograde? But that is exactly the way you're stirring your soup."
And the Clan Mother said, "But only from above. Perhaps your eyes only let you see things from one direction? That is a sadness."
The hairless scholar adjusted his nose-windows and said, "All right. Fine. Tell me of the Two Moons Dance. Is it true you Khajiit dance at the midnight hour to the light of the moons?"
And the Clan Mother said, "Indeed not. We dance the Two Moons Dance in every hour. It is our delight."
The hairless scholar said, "You're not dancing. You're sitting by the fire. Tell me when you're going to dance, so I can join you."
And the Clan Mother said, "My daughter and I dance to the moons at this moment, but you cannot join us, for you do not have a tail. It is a sadness."
The hairless scholar gnawed his knuckle and said, "Very well then. I hear that you have curious beliefs about the moons. Tell me of them."
And the Clan Mother said, "As you wish. When Lorkhaj made a place for Nirni's children, the darkness in his heart made it also a prison. So his heart was cut out and buried deep in Nirni, and his body was hurled to the moons but could not pass them, for it did not know the First Secret. Thus is his body the Dead Moon in the Lunar Lattice. See it, just there?"
The hairless scholar peered at the sky and said, "I see no moons at all—Masser and Secunda are both new. What do you mean?"
And the Clan Mother said, "Hairless scholar, this one forgot again about your eyes." And she sighed, and her tail danced, and she shrugged. And she said, "It is a sadness."

Danikat · February 2015

I've read that book before, but as you said it doesn't really explain anything.

Although I suppose it does, at least partially, answer my first question. If an Omhes-raht can give birth to a Senche-raht the breeds presumably aren't genetic.

It still doesn't explain how. But I guess it's possible whoever came up with the idea simply didn't think about it in that much detail.

Runefell · February 2015

She said she gave birth to a Senche-raht, but the scholar thought they looked exactly alike. So apparently they can either classify them as one type but they're not, or they start out young like their parents and evolve into their final forms in adulthood.

There was a thread earlier about khajiits and their forms. They really start discussing this about here.

k9mouse · February 2015

From game books over the years, my understanding is when a Khajiit give birth to a cub / kitten. The cub / kitten will look like the same and are about the same size. It takes about a week or so to see the changes the phrases of the moons had caused.

So a huge khajiit breed like a Cathay-raht will be the same sized as an Alfiq when born. The Cathay-raht will grow longer to get to their HUGE sized and Alfiq will not grow that much. Thus, any Khajiit Sub-Race can give birth to any other Khajiit Sub-race.

Aeratus · February 2015

Although not directly stated, the lore suggests that any breed can give birth to any other sub-breed, since there was one lorebook that mentioned multiple different sub-breeds in the same family was common. I would agree with the above comment that cubs look the same regardless of sub-breed.

However, it does raise the question of how an afiq would mate with a senche-raht due to size difference...

Throren · February 2015

The way I assume it to be, is all Khajiit 'kittens' or newborn come out looking the generally same way/same size but after they are born and start to age they slowly begin to conform to whichever breed they are depending on the moon cycle.

So an alfiq and Senche-raht brother/sister pair would look identical as new borns but say 3 weeks down the line and the Senche-raht is already horse sized and the alfiq looking more house-cat-ish.

LMar · February 2015

Throren wrote: »

The way I assume it to be, is all Khajiit 'kittens' or newborn come out looking the generally same way/same size but after they are born and start to age they slowly begin to conform to whichever breed they are depending on the moon cycle.

So an alfiq and Senche-raht brother/sister pair would look identical as new borns but say 3 weeks down the line and the Senche-raht is already horse sized and the alfiq looking more house-cat-ish.

Yes, it is not at all genetic but only determined by the moons, so an alfiq alfiq mating could give birth to the Mane for all we know. The size would become apparent only AFTER the birth. All litters come to about the same size for Khajiits and only later grow to attain their breed sizes given to them by the moons

Throren · February 2015

LMar wrote: »

Throren wrote: »

The way I assume it to be, is all Khajiit 'kittens' or newborn come out looking the generally same way/same size but after they are born and start to age they slowly begin to conform to whichever breed they are depending on the moon cycle.

So an alfiq and Senche-raht brother/sister pair would look identical as new borns but say 3 weeks down the line and the Senche-raht is already horse sized and the alfiq looking more house-cat-ish.

Yes, it is not at all genetic but only determined by the moons, so an alfiq alfiq mating could give birth to the Mane for all we know. The size would become apparent only AFTER the birth. All litters come to about the same size for Khajiits and only later grow to attain their breed sizes given to them by the moons

I would assume it would be easier to tell some breeds from other such as the ohmes being born with more mer/human-like features (no fur, regular mer shaped face/mouth/nose/ears)

JKorr · February 2015

k9mouse wrote: »

From game books over the years, my understanding is when a Khajiit give birth to a cub / kitten. The cub / kitten will look like the same and are about the same size. It takes about a week or so to see the changes the phrases of the moons had caused.

So a huge khajiit breed like a Cathay-raht will be the same sized as an Alfiq when born. The Cathay-raht will grow longer to get to their HUGE sized and Alfiq will not grow that much. Thus, any Khajiit Sub-Race can give birth to any other Khajiit Sub-race.

The reason I twitch every time I see Senche in the game; if you follow the descriptions, the "senche" in the game are far closer to the pahmar/pahmar-raht than they are to the senche. If anyone played Morrowind, Jobasha the bookseller was a Suthay-raht.

Interview with Three Booksellers:

Jobasha:
Ah, you are wiser than most, for the only Khajiit most men notice are the Ohmes-raht and Suthay-raht.

Khajiit are bound to the Lunar Lattice, the ja'Kha'jay. The phases of Masser and Secunda at birth determine the form a Khajiit takes in life. Khajiti newborns look very similar to one another, with their form becoming clear over several weeks. We are smaller than you humans when we are born, but we grow faster.

When Masser is new and Secunda is full, the Ohmes is born. They are like the Bosmer, but sometimes shorter. Many Ohmes tattoo their faces to show they are Khajiit.

When Masser is new and Secunda is waxing, the Ohmes-raht is born. They have light fur and a tail, but they walk on their heels like men, and can be mistaken for men at a distance.

When Masser and Secunda are new, the Suthay is born. They look similar to Jobasha, but smaller.

When Masser is new and Secunda is waning, the Suthay-raht is born. Jobasha is a Suthay-raht, as are nearly all Khajiit in Morrowind. Other races call the Suthay-raht "Ja'Khajiit," but Jobasha knows not why. "Ja'Khajiit" is one of our words for Mehrunes Dagon.

When Masser is waxing and Secunda is full, the Cathay is born. They are larger than Jobasha, and stronger.

When Masser and Secunda are waxing, the Cathay-raht is born. They are even larger and stronger than the Cathay.

When Masser is waxing and Secunda is new, the Tojay is born.

When Masser is waxing and Secunda is waning, the Tojay-raht is born.

When Masser is waning and Secunda is full, the Alfiq is born. The Alfiq is like what you would call a "housecat." Jobasha does not advise calling an Alfiq a "housecat," for while they are not made to speak your language, they do understand it.

When Masser is waning and Secunda is waxing, the Alfiq-raht is born.

When Masser is waning and Secunda is new, the Dagi is born.

When Masser and Secunda are waning, the Dagi-raht is born.

When Masser and Secunda are full, the Senche is born. The Senche is very large, but similar to the Pahmar-raht. They stand as tall as an Altmer, and can weigh as much as twenty Altmer. Other Khajiit ride them.

When Masser is full and Secunda is waxing, the Senche-raht is born. The Senche-raht is much larger and slower than the Senche. Their legs are straighter and their body is not as long. They stand as tall as two Altmer and can weigh more than fifty Altmer. These are also ridden, especially in battle. Imperials call them "Battlecats," but again, Jobasha does not suggest calling a Senche-raht a "Battlecat."

When Masser is full and Secunda is new, the Pahmar is born. They are like what you would call a "tiger."

When Masser is full and Secunda is waning, the Pahmar-raht is born. They are like the Pahmar, but larger and more dangerous.

Throren · February 2015

JKorr wrote: »

The reason I twitch every time I see Senche in the game; if you follow the descriptions, the "senche" in the game are far closer to the pahmar/pahmar-raht than they are to the senche.

In another thread the 'lore master' at ZoS confirmed that the 'senche-tigers' we see in game aren't Khajiit but merely wild animals/actual big cats called senche-(insert something here) by Khajiit for some reason.

The senche mount coming soon (the big horse sized one) is an actual Khajiiti senche.

Also you can see a Pahmar under a walkway in Riften.

Panda244 · February 2015

The breed depends on the moon phase, it isn't genetic. When a Khajiit gives birth I'm pretty sure no matter what breed, they always start out kitten-like, and depending on the moon phase they grow up to be what they are, Senche, Cathay, Suthay, etc etc.

@Gidorick can correct me if I'm wrong, he's a Kitty fanatic.

Also, so no one gets confused.
Senche is completely different from Senche-Tiger, Senche are sentient and intelligent, Senche-Tigers are just Tigers... And the Senche-Raht... Well...

"The average Senche-raht stands as tall as two Altmer and can weigh as much or more than fifty."
So yeah, Khajiit = Scurry.

JKorr · February 2015

Throren wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

The reason I twitch every time I see Senche in the game; if you follow the descriptions, the "senche" in the game are far closer to the pahmar/pahmar-raht than they are to the senche.

In another thread the 'lore master' at ZoS confirmed that the 'senche-tigers' we see in game aren't Khajiit but merely wild animals/actual big cats called senche-(insert something here) by Khajiit for some reason.

The senche mount coming soon (the big horse sized one) is an actual Khajiiti senche.

Also you can see a Pahmar under a walkway in Riften.

The Imperial library people need to add that explanation to the "Dog ate my homework" section for weaseling explanations and fanny-covering information.

Aeratus · February 2015

Throren wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

The reason I twitch every time I see Senche in the game; if you follow the descriptions, the "senche" in the game are far closer to the pahmar/pahmar-raht than they are to the senche.

In another thread the 'lore master' at ZoS confirmed that the 'senche-tigers' we see in game aren't Khajiit but merely wild animals/actual big cats called senche-(insert something here) by Khajiit for some reason.

The senche mount coming soon (the big horse sized one) is an actual Khajiiti senche.

Also you can see a Pahmar under a walkway in Riften.

Meh, that's blatant retcon of a poor earlier design.

"Senche-Tiger" is reocgnized in lorebooks as a Khajiit.

There are wild cats that are named "Senche" (as opposed to "Senche-Tiger") in ESO. They behave just like any other mob.

Khajiit confusing to non-Khajiit? Then how my Khajiit character perceives just the same as my other non-Khajiit chars.

As I mentioned, ZOS screwed up with the Senche(-Tiger) mobs in the game and are backtracking.

LMar · February 2015

Throren wrote: »

LMar wrote: »

Throren wrote: »

The way I assume it to be, is all Khajiit 'kittens' or newborn come out looking the generally same way/same size but after they are born and start to age they slowly begin to conform to whichever breed they are depending on the moon cycle.

So an alfiq and Senche-raht brother/sister pair would look identical as new borns but say 3 weeks down the line and the Senche-raht is already horse sized and the alfiq looking more house-cat-ish.

Yes, it is not at all genetic but only determined by the moons, so an alfiq alfiq mating could give birth to the Mane for all we know. The size would become apparent only AFTER the birth. All litters come to about the same size for Khajiits and only later grow to attain their breed sizes given to them by the moons

I would assume it would be easier to tell some breeds from other such as the ohmes being born with more mer/human-like features (no fur, regular mer shaped face/mouth/nose/ears)

As JKorr posted no the breeds all look the same when born and only later become different

" Khajiti newborns look very similar to one another, with their form becoming clear over several weeks. We are smaller than you humans when we are born, but we grow faster."
Hope that helps

Gidorick · February 2015

Panda244 wrote: »

The breed depends on the moon phase, it isn't genetic. When a Khajiit gives birth I'm pretty sure no matter what breed, they always start out kitten-like, and depending on the moon phase they grow up to be what they are, Senche, Cathay, Suthay, etc etc.

@Gidorick can correct me if I'm wrong, he's a Kitty fanatic.

Also, so no one gets confused.
Senche is completely different from Senche-Tiger, Senche are sentient and intelligent, Senche-Tigers are just Tigers... And the Senche-Raht... Well...

"The average Senche-raht stands as tall as two Altmer and can weigh as much or more than fifty."
So yeah, Khajiit = Scurry.

lol. Thanks for the nod there Panda but I'm FAR from the authority on Khajiit... but yes, you are right. It's not a genetic thing that makes a Khajiit Breed what it is, it's the phase of the moons.

I recommend anyone interested in getting to know more about Khajiit watch this video made by ShoddyCast. In fact, anyone interested in the lore of Tamriel should watch their whole lore series. It's wonderfully made and extremely informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MteinMPdHP8

Shunravi · February 2015

Didn't see this quoted yet... it's the response from the loremaster

Lawrence_Schick wrote: »

OFFICIAL ANSWER: Moon Bishop Hulan says, “Many hairless ones are confused by the term ‘senche,’ since we Khajiit use it to mean a variety of things. It is used as ‘senche’ and ‘senche-raht’ to refer to two of the seventeen distinct furstocks, or ‘breeds,’ of Khajiit. The senche-raht, in fact, are the largest of us! But we also use the term ‘senche-tiger’ to refer to our more catlike cousins of lesser sentience. Indeed, depending upon the appearance of these cousins, we might even call them ‘senche-leopards’ or ‘senche-panthers.’ So you see that the term ‘senche’ is very flexible indeed, as changeable as the Moons.”

Danikat · February 2015

Wow, thanks for the great answers everyone.

I'll watch the videos when I get home tonight, but it looks like I've got my answer.

JKorr wrote: »

k9mouse wrote: »

From game books over the years, my understanding is when a Khajiit give birth to a cub / kitten. The cub / kitten will look like the same and are about the same size. It takes about a week or so to see the changes the phrases of the moons had caused.

So a huge khajiit breed like a Cathay-raht will be the same sized as an Alfiq when born. The Cathay-raht will grow longer to get to their HUGE sized and Alfiq will not grow that much. Thus, any Khajiit Sub-Race can give birth to any other Khajiit Sub-race.

The reason I twitch every time I see Senche in the game; if you follow the descriptions, the "senche" in the game are far closer to the pahmar/pahmar-raht than they are to the senche. If anyone played Morrowind, Jobasha the bookseller was a Suthay-raht.

Interview with Three Booksellers:
Jobasha:
Ah, you are wiser than most, for the only Khajiit most men notice are the Ohmes-raht and Suthay-raht.

Khajiit are bound to the Lunar Lattice, the ja'Kha'jay. The phases of Masser and Secunda at birth determine the form a Khajiit takes in life. Khajiti newborns look very similar to one another, with their form becoming clear over several weeks. We are smaller than you humans when we are born, but we grow faster.

When Masser is new and Secunda is full, the Ohmes is born. They are like the Bosmer, but sometimes shorter. Many Ohmes tattoo their faces to show they are Khajiit.

When Masser is new and Secunda is waxing, the Ohmes-raht is born. They have light fur and a tail, but they walk on their heels like men, and can be mistaken for men at a distance.

When Masser and Secunda are new, the Suthay is born. They look similar to Jobasha, but smaller.

When Masser is new and Secunda is waning, the Suthay-raht is born. Jobasha is a Suthay-raht, as are nearly all Khajiit in Morrowind. Other races call the Suthay-raht "Ja'Khajiit," but Jobasha knows not why. "Ja'Khajiit" is one of our words for Mehrunes Dagon.

When Masser is waxing and Secunda is full, the Cathay is born. They are larger than Jobasha, and stronger.

When Masser and Secunda are waxing, the Cathay-raht is born. They are even larger and stronger than the Cathay.

When Masser is waxing and Secunda is new, the Tojay is born.

When Masser is waxing and Secunda is waning, the Tojay-raht is born.

When Masser is waning and Secunda is full, the Alfiq is born. The Alfiq is like what you would call a "housecat." Jobasha does not advise calling an Alfiq a "housecat," for while they are not made to speak your language, they do understand it.

When Masser is waning and Secunda is waxing, the Alfiq-raht is born.

When Masser is waning and Secunda is new, the Dagi is born.

When Masser and Secunda are waning, the Dagi-raht is born.

When Masser and Secunda are full, the Senche is born. The Senche is very large, but similar to the Pahmar-raht. They stand as tall as an Altmer, and can weigh as much as twenty Altmer. Other Khajiit ride them.

When Masser is full and Secunda is waxing, the Senche-raht is born. The Senche-raht is much larger and slower than the Senche. Their legs are straighter and their body is not as long. They stand as tall as two Altmer and can weigh more than fifty Altmer. These are also ridden, especially in battle. Imperials call them "Battlecats," but again, Jobasha does not suggest calling a Senche-raht a "Battlecat."

When Masser is full and Secunda is new, the Pahmar is born. They are like what you would call a "tiger."

When Masser is full and Secunda is waning, the Pahmar-raht is born. They are like the Pahmar, but larger and more dangerous.

Was that conversation available if you were playing as a Khajiit?

Morrowind was my first TES game and as soon as I saw the Khajiit race my decision was made (which is odd for me in a game with 3 kinds of elves and half elves to choose from). I did play other races but I don't think I explored as thoroughly as I did on my various Khajiit characters so I may well have missed that.