1.6.5 Sorcerer detailed balance feedback

byrom101b16_ESO · April 2015

Drago Belsazar wrote: »

Tanis-Stormbinder wrote: »

I think what we (Sorcerers) need is a reliable self heal and a slight bump up in dps. Maybe increase the Expert Mage passive up to 3 or 4%.

That would force Sorcerers even more to roll as DPS. In my opinion they have to strengthen the options. And I really believe the stamina Sorcerer is not the Problem. Medium Armor provides most Critical Hits, Cirticial Surge 65% Self-Heal of the Damage which is nice with for example a Bow and don't forget your nice Armor. You can also Teleport. Well the Magicka Sorcerer needs alot more Slots to reach these Stages. But again the other Classes gave more Options, but I believe there are bigger Problems than the Stamina Sorcerer.

Father wrote: »

Mumnoch wrote: »

chongguang wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdzYuKEzW58

I get this link from reddit, very nice pvp sorcerers heavy armor video

What do u think about this build ? Can use it as a tank sorcerers in PVE???

No, his build would need some things changed to survive in a PVE environment. Sorc's can tank in PVE, there are just a few (3) other classes that have better tools.

This guy is full on defensive waiting on Ultimate and lucky proc's to get the few kills he does get.

I'm one of these ppl that always laughed at sorc tanks...I kinda regret that now.
Yesterday I went to AA with some friends...guess who tanked o_O !? A sorc tanked AA 3 times and even solo atronach at 20% alone with only 25k hp and footman / histbark. You can say meh i've seen ppl solo it but man...that surprised me

And I bet this Player would have absolved this task with every class. Question is how many players are able to do? I can assure you, it is not that easy. Think about a Dragonknight Tank with good resource Management what he is able to do. You cannot compare these Classes by picking those few Sorcerer Tanks and compare them to the mass of DK casual players.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

We need a forum-independent poll on what the Sorcerer playing population of the game really want and need, and we need it before they make more stupid mistakes with the class!

Well, if that is the case, the new O.P. character is born, because DPS is buffed to hell and all are happy? Even Hardcore Gamers would leave one day because it's odd for lack of possibilities. That's why the Devs need to protect their players for these changes. There should be only a passive DPS buff, when Teleport is not chosen. That would prevent O.P. combinations. The common DPS I have seen from other Classes/Stamina-Builds is 20.000 DPS to Single Target. The Devs had to Buff the Magicka Sorcerer at least for 20% to come close to this ammount. Keep in mind Stamina Builds using Block/Dodge Ressource to deal damage, so you can't buff for 20%.

Sorcerer needs Buff for Healer, Summoner, HP-Tanks and maybe a DPS Boost when its prevent they don't using Bolt Escape/Streak. I really beg the Devs to read my written suggestions.

I disagree. There are a signifcant number of issues being raised by Sorcerer players that have nothing to do with dps. I think a well constructed and comprehensive survey would be the best way forwards to getting a better class.

On your first point, it's interesting and refreshing to read someone saying the stamina Sorc. doesn't have a problem. I agree - especially now that stamina is such a dps-heavy resource. For those feeling restricted in terms of utility and synergy with their stamin Sprc builds - well that's a problem for the class as a whole since 1.6 - not somethingw hich will be fixed by reducing choice with alternate stamina morphs that only give one viable choice to two different builds (and that's if Zenimax actually do it sensibly...).

Changes to a few magicka skills and morphs would serve the class far better.

Just a few ideas...

A magic damage pbaoe to replace Daedric Mines...
An instant moderate damage ranged attack to replace Runic Prison with an interupt morph and a DoT morph
Two morphs of a decent Bound Armour skill (more armour and spell resistance as base) - one which has a decent armour and spell resistance bonus buff for tank builds, the other a decent non-staff weapon dps buff for weapon dps builds
Surge heals fixed to scale well and not suffer from low damage proc and cooldown randomness
Only one 'Summoner' toggle that allows summoning of whatever pets you desire (from 1-2) with scaling spell damage penalties to balance dps
Toggleable 'Modes' (on the pet, not on the bar...) for the type of pet role desired (tanking, dps, passive buffer etc.)

Nutronic · April 2015

I'll add a few suggestions as well:

Unstable Familiar, Summon Winged Twilight and Bound Armor should activate whenever place on the bar that cost a flat percentage of the user's magicka. When killed, the summons should have a cooldown (or perhaps triggered when weapon swapping) before they are re-summoned.
Summoned creatures and armor abilities should have an active effect when used that costs Magicka/Stamina.
1. The Clannfear should tailswipe and taunt enemies that costs stamina/magicka.
2. The Volatile Familiar should cast toggle-able AOE that drains the user's magicka.
3. Twilight Matriarch should heal the lowest player in group by 35% of max health over 5 seconds for x Magicka.
4. Restoring Twilight should restore mana to the party (except the user) at the cost of the summoner as a toggle.
5. Bound Ageis cost 5% of the user's magicka and Grant Major Prophecy & Minor Sorcery, Force & Mending.
6. Bound Armaments costs 5% of the user's stamina and Grant Major Savagery & Minor Brutality, Force & Vitality.
Encase should halve it's crowd control time and also heal those in front x the number of enemies hit. It should also have a healing morph that only targets allies. This morph should shield them for x damage then do a burst heal depending on how long the shield lasted (stronger heal for shorter time).
Deadric Mines should cost 10% less. Deadric Tomb Morph should be an AOE ground target-able ability (like lightning splash) with a .5 cast time and 28m range. Deadric Minefield's 5 mines should be bigger and do 20% additional damage to CC'd enemies.
Surge should grant Major Sorcery as part of the base skill. Power Surge should only last 10sec, replace Major Brutality with Major Mending whenever the caster lands a critical heal. Crit Surge should have 20-25 second duration and only heal for 45%.

Also some passive suggestions:

Disintegrate should also either proc on ALL lightning attacks including weapon enchantments or on fire attacks as well for lower damage.
Unholy knowledge either needs 1 more skill allocation or a buff to 8%-10%
Blood Magic should work on up to 3 additional other players and also proc on dark magic healing.
Deadric Protection should only activate with an active deadric summon but each summon should add an additional 7% (max of 21%) health recovery.
Expert Summoner should increase the speed of the unstable/volatile familiar but increase the health (5%) of the Clannfear.

Another idea is to use one of the Dark Exchange morphs to trade magicka/stamina for party health but that might be a bit too OP since Templars have an ult like that but it costs ultimate.

Drago Belsazar · April 2015

Nutronic wrote: »

I'll add a few suggestions as well:
Unstable Familiar, Summon Winged Twilight and Bound Armor should activate whenever place on the bar that cost a flat percentage of the user's magicka. When killed, the summons should have a cooldown (or perhaps triggered when weapon swapping) before they are re-summoned.

Summoned creatures and armor abilities should have an active effect when used that costs Magicka/Stamina.
The Clannfear should tailswipe and taunt enemies that costs stamina/magicka.

The Volatile Familiar should cast toggle-able AOE that drains the user's magicka.

Twilight Matriarch should heal the lowest player in group by 35% of max health over 5 seconds for x Magicka.

Restoring Twilight should restore mana to the party (except the user) at the cost of the summoner as a toggle.

Bound Ageis cost 5% of the user's magicka and Grant Major Prophecy & Minor Sorcery, Force & Mending.

Bound Armaments costs 5% of the user's stamina and Grant Major Savagery & Minor Brutality, Force & Vitality.

Encase should halve it's crowd control time and also heal those in front x the number of enemies hit. It should also have a healing morph that only targets allies. This morph should shield them for x damage then do a burst heal depending on how long the shield lasted (stronger heal for shorter time).

Deadric Mines should cost 10% less. Deadric Tomb Morph should be an AOE ground target-able ability (like lightning splash) with a .5 cast time and 28m range. Deadric Minefield's 5 mines should be bigger and do 20% additional damage to CC'd enemies.

Surge should grant Major Sorcery as part of the base skill. Power Surge should only last 10sec, replace Major Brutality with Major Mending whenever the caster lands a critical heal. Crit Surge should have 20-25 second duration and only heal for 45%.

Also some passive suggestions:
Disintegrate should also either proc on ALL lightning attacks including weapon enchantments or on fire attacks as well for lower damage.

Unholy knowledge either needs 1 more skill allocation or a buff to 8%-10%

Blood Magic should work on up to 3 additional other players and also proc on dark magic healing.

Deadric Protection should only activate with an active deadric summon but each summon should add an additional 7% (max of 21%) health recovery.

Expert Summoner should increase the speed of the unstable/volatile familiar but increase the health (5%) of the Clannfear.

Another idea is to use one of the Dark Exchange morphs to trade magicka/stamina for party health but that might be a bit too OP since Templars have an ult like that but it costs ultimate.

That is what I mean. You want to strengthen a build by nerfing another one - I think this is the wrong way. One example: Why you want to rip Health Recovery granting only with Pet? What is with Bound Aegis? A Nerf is not needed for Sorcerer. Buffs for weak Builds. No Changes for Stronger Builds.

Nutronic · April 2015

How's that a nerf to any other builds? -3% from 10% of.... Health Recovery?! Seriously, who's build does that hurt? You'd still get the buff by actually using the skill anyways, and an even better one by actually having multiples.

And if you want to complain about weak builds getting nerfed in favor of stronger ones then refer to PVP builds versus PVE builds. Sorc is just find in PVP b/c they have such high burst, shield stacking, and other anti-player abilities to make them strong. Where as in PVE these skills don't translate as well and usually make life harder for running trials or other dungeons, especially compared to other classes.

Also, these suggestions are targeted to weaken anything, most of them I just suggested moving the already weak morph into the base skill so that you can free up an additional morph spot without killing someone else's build. That being said, if you want a stronger overall skill, it needs to be balanced. Sorcerers don't need random over powered buffs so they can abuse them and then get removed to be weaker than they were before.

But seriously, tell me which builds I've "weakened". I'd love to know which of my fellow sorcerers don't want more damage on top of what they already have, or stronger buffs, or additional less passive play added to the toggle spells. I'm thinking you didn't even read the suggestion very well other wise you'd note that -5% from +5% is a 0% temporary loss when you gain +20% spell crit, +8% spell damage (which more than makes up for the 5% loss) AND gain the option to heal; all the while keeping what the skill already does... which is just add some minor resist and +5% magicka which unless you have over 30K magicka doesn't really equal more +8% directly to your damage when the modifier for magicka into damage is already so low.

I didn't suggest nerfs, I suggested overall buffs to sorc. I agree that we don't need any more nerfs.

Drago Belsazar · April 2015

Nutronic wrote: »

[*] Deadric Protection should only activate with an active deadric summon but each summon should add an additional 7% (max of 21%) health recovery.

✭✭✭
How's that a nerf to any other builds? -3% from 10% of.... Health Recovery?! Seriously, who's build does that hurt? You'd still get the buff by actually using the skill anyways, and an even better one by actually having multiples.

You know Sorcerer Tanks Build compared to other Classes is weak enough. Now a higher HP-Regen Tank should be forced to roll with Pets to get better Regeneration? You know the Pets stealing Aggro? Maybe 99% play as DPS, but it's not true this Passive is bad/worthless.

Nutronic wrote: »

And if you want to complain about weak builds getting nerfed in favor of stronger ones then refer to PVP builds versus PVE builds. Sorc is just find in PVP b/c they have such high burst, shield stacking, and other anti-player abilities to make them strong. Where as in PVE these skills don't translate as well and usually make life harder for running trials or other dungeons, especially compared to other classes.

Can you imagine I am annoyed playing everytime the same? I admitted there is an O.P. Build with Teleport and Shield-Stacking. But you can't say Sorcerer is fine, when everything else - compared to other classes - is crap. Every Sorcerer shall be forced now to go with this Build? This Strength becoming a Weakness, because all your Enemies know your build before they enter fight if all play like this.

All I ask for is strengthen weak Builds.

Buff Heal-Sorcerer, Scaling Hitpoint(AND Heavy Armor) Tank(Yes, no Shields), and Summoners(They got buffed, but are still crap). If you want your O.P. Teleport to be O.P. you need enough DPS to kill anyone with that. Enter fight - Kill - Escape. You would not call a Tank who is blocking some Bolts/DPS for the Group and Escaping after O.P. There are alot worthable Skills for him. He cannot kill anything with this Skill because his fights lasts to long, and if not, he kills maybe some Noobs fast, yes. But for these he don't need Teleport.

I don't remember ESO launched with only one working Build, keep that in mind, before you answer: Roll another class. And I even don't remember Shields were that important when ESO launched. That's why you can say, they changed Sorcerer to a different class.

Nutronic wrote: »

But seriously, tell me which builds I've "weakened". I'd love to know which of my fellow sorcerers don't want more damage on top of what they already have, or stronger buffs, or additional less passive play added to the toggle spells. I'm thinking you didn't even read the suggestion very well other wise you'd note that -5% from +5% is a 0% temporary loss when you gain +20% spell crit, +8% spell damage (which more than makes up for the 5% loss) AND gain the option to heal; all the while keeping what the skill already does... which is just add some minor resist and +5% magicka which unless you have over 30K magicka doesn't really equal more +8% directly to your damage when the modifier for magicka into damage is already so low.

I didn't suggest nerfs, I suggested overall buffs to sorc. I agree that we don't need any more nerfs.

Of course I read them all.

I picked only that one to show you, that you can nerf another build by picking this - only some affected change. We are on line. Sorcerer needs buff, but not the strong builds.

Nutronic · April 2015

So I just had surgery and am still on lots of pain meds. It seemed like no matter how many times I read your statements I could make sense of all of it. I apologize in advance if I misinterpret what you're saying, it just wasn't always clear to me.

Drago Belsazar wrote: »

You know Sorcerer Tanks Build compared to other Classes is weak enough. Now a higher HP-Regen Tank should be forced to roll with Pets to get better Regeneration? You know the Pets stealing Aggro? Maybe 99% play as DPS, but it's not true this Passive is bad/worthless.

Um I Tank with pets.. it's like my thing. I get lots of players telling me they enjoy my tanking, and while I don't have GDB or a DK Damage reduction ult I have something better: Bolt Escape. Also, I don't care if the pet steals agro, my job as tank is to make sure the group doesn't take too much damage. So long as I fulfill that I've done my job. Also, I don't know any Sorc tanks who don't use bound armor... which would count as a summon (also so would the Storm atronach, which is also popular among sorc tanks IIRC)

Drago Belsazar wrote: »

Can you imagine I am annoyed playing everytime the same? I admitted there is an O.P. Build with Teleport and Shield-Stacking. But you can't say Sorcerer is fine, when everything else - compared to other classes - is crap. Every Sorcerer shall be forced now to go with this Build? This Strength becoming a Weakness, because all your Enemies know your build before they enter fight if all play like this.

Wait... did I miss something? I didn't suggest a build. I just suggested a group of buffs/changes. Those should be adaptable to a variety of builds.

Drago Belsazar wrote: »

All I ask for is strengthen weak Builds.

See at first I thought you were contradicting yourself because I read:

Drago Belsazar wrote: »

A Nerf is not needed for Sorcerer. Buffs for weak Builds. No Changes for Stronger Builds.

To mean that you didn't want weaker build buffed. Now that I know that isn't the case much of what I said as knee-jerk wtf why not buff all builds/build diversity can be dimissed. My bad.

Drago Belsazar wrote: »

Buff Heal-Sorcerer, Scaling Hitpoint(AND Heavy Armor) Tank(Yes, no Shields), and Summoners(They got buffed, but are still crap). If you want your O.P. Teleport to be O.P. you need enough DPS to kill anyone with that. Enter fight - Kill - Escape. You would not call a Tank who is blocking some Bolts/DPS for the Group and Escaping after O.P. There are alot worthable Skills for him. He cannot kill anything with this Skill because his fights lasts to long, and if not, he kills maybe some Noobs fast, yes. But for these he don't need Teleport.

First off, nothing should be OP. It doesn't really make the game fun or long lasting if something has too much reward for too low of risk. This is part of the reason I suspect ZOS won't undo the teleport nerf. Namely because with high enough Magicka people don't need to run from you, they just need to keep stun locking you with streak and doing damage while avoiding it to win.

Secondly, I'm not convinced you know what the new buff system buffs are:

"Bound Ageis cost 5% of the user's magicka and Grant Major Prophecy & Minor Sorcery, Force & Mending."
"Power Surge should only last 10sec, replace Major Brutality with Major Mending whenever the caster lands a critical heal. "

Mending increases the healing done by the caster. Currently Sorcs don't have this while pretty much every other class does. As you can see I suggested a minor buff with the 8% increase and a major one with the 30% on another skill.. which are stackable (which in retrospect might make it over powered). Scaling hit point tanks and other things aren't class reliant, those are race and attribute heavy. The main power of the Sorc class should be cost reduction and a general better recovery/management of resources.

Lastly, in PVP I play tank with my Bolt Escape/charge combo. I don't need to shield stack to be hard to kill, and I don't really care about killing other players myself. I work to disable them and protect my allies so they can get the kill. I for one don't see the point in playing AVA like 1v1 and just trying to roll face. Obviously there are enough people already doing that. If I can lock people down, "Shock" back lines so we can take out siege and keep my comrades alive, then I'm doing MY job.

Drago Belsazar wrote: »

I don't remember ESO launched with only one working Build, keep that in mind, before you answer: Roll another class. And I even don't remember Shields were that important when ESO launched. That's why you can say, they changed Sorcerer to a different class.

Well when the game launched, people had to learn what worked and what didn't and how to counter what. Shields weren't that big a deal at launch, but that was because few people were looking to exploit them and they hadn't received noticeable buffs yet. I'm not sure if I fully understand what you're getting at here, but lots of people changed classes for a ton of reasons. Remember, tons of people rolled Khajiit b/c they though carnage was OP... Boy I sure do see tons of Khajiit still running around (still lots but they aren't as massed as Breton/Imperial)

Drago Belsazar wrote: »

Of course I read them all. I picked only that one to show you, that you can nerf another build by picking this - only some affected change. We are on line. Sorcerer needs buff, but not the strong builds.

While I take this to mean "we're on the same page" I can't say I feel 100% there with you. I personally don't think you can make any changes to the sorc without breaking/re-balancing a few things. This may mean strong builds need to get stronger, because as you already stated:
"You know Sorcerer Tanks Build compared to other Classes is weak enough."
Which I don't agree with fully, but I believe the sentiment extends to other roles. Sorcs don't do the best of anything right now, and therefore the "strong builds" need to be buffed if we want to stay competitive or relevant.

This is all kinda moot though since we won't be seeing ANY major changes until after console launch.

Drago Belsazar · April 2015

Nutronic wrote: »

Sorcs don't do the best of anything right now, and therefore the "strong builds" need to be buffed if we want to stay competitive or relevant.

This is all kinda moot though since we won't be seeing ANY major changes until after console launch.

Well, finally I understand what you haven written. I am not a native english speaker, excuse me if my words are hard to understand. I hope you understand most.

But you are right. We are not on the same page. I want more versatility. Buffing the strong Builds has no priority for me.

LameoveR · May 2015

Necro up!

seanvwolf · May 2015

There's a serious lack of feedback in support of stamina Sorcerers. Not more stamina morphs per se, but stamina and weapon damage affecting spells.

Have Surge give caster a flat HoT (.25 sec tic, 1 second duration; heal based on skill level and health) that will proc and stack up to 5 times.
Restore Exploitation to affect all forms of crit chance, not just spell crit.
By the Eight, make the Dark Magic utility spells more effective against dungeon and trial bosses. Even if it's just a small chance it's better than making this generally useless for stamina users in final encounters.
Dark Deal/Exchange might be better put as a 20 second flat buff/debuff exchange to recovery (not in conflict with existing minor or major buffs), costing nothing initially and not as a channel (please). 8k health and stamina/magicka over 4 seconds means nothing when you take three or four times that damage a second and your active skills cost between 2k and 4k a second. If the Surge cooldown hadn't been in place, I could have restored that much health and stamina just doing heavy attacks in as much time and still maintained damage against my targets. Not well thought out.
Overload should not remove effects of Surge or summoned Twilights. This has been an issue since before launch and doesn't make much sense. I'm spending the magicka AND the ultimate costs to decide to stack them.

Emma_Overload · May 2015

seanvwolf wrote: »

There's a serious lack of feedback in support of stamina Sorcerers. Not more stamina morphs per se, but stamina and weapon damage affecting spells.
Have Surge give caster a flat HoT (.25 sec tic, 1 second duration; heal based on skill level and health) that will proc and stack up to 5 times.

Restore Exploitation to affect all forms of crit chance, not just spell crit.

By the Eight, make the Dark Magic utility spells more effective against dungeon and trial bosses. Even if it's just a small chance it's better than making this generally useless for stamina users in final encounters.

Dark Deal/Exchange might be better put as a 20 second flat buff/debuff exchange to recovery (not in conflict with existing minor or major buffs), costing nothing initially and not as a channel (please). 8k health and stamina/magicka over 4 seconds means nothing when you take three or four times that damage a second and your active skills cost between 2k and 4k a second. If the Surge cooldown hadn't been in place, I could have restored that much health and stamina just doing heavy attacks in as much time and still maintained damage against my targets. Not well thought out.

Overload should not remove effects of Surge or summoned Twilights. This has been an issue since before launch and doesn't make much sense. I'm spending the magicka AND the ultimate costs to decide to stack them.

Those are some good ideas. On the subject of improving Dark Magic, I would really like to see Blood Magic fixed so that it procs on EVERY target hit. That means that if I hit a group of mobs with Crystal Blast or Encase, I get a heal for each and every mob afffected. This would go a long way to fixing the lack of healing scalability caused by the Critical Surge cooldown.