Replacing the VR grind with the Champion system Grind

Garwulf

Disagree with this.. you are certainly entitled too .


If ZOS can actually remove Vet Levels with out screwing it up or alienating a lot of people or both I will be surprised.

Personally I cannot see the point in going through the hassle of actually trying to remove Vet levels, readjusting potions, food, enchants, equipment and crafting materials. Whilst the champion system was an add on, the VR system is buried deep within the game.

So what is wrong with the VR system... as far as I can tell it is that I take so long to get to VR14. Currently 1 million points per level (originally much, much worse)

Possible Solutions;
a) reduce the VR points significantly so that getting to VR14 is relatively easily or
b) replace VR1to 14 with levels 51 to 63 with the same level progression as from 0 to 50.
Both would require a modification of Monster levels in Cadwell's silver and gold but surely easier to do successfully than a total revamp of the game levelling system. No equipment, crafting etc would need to change.

Whilst it will not fix the major problem with this game, the fact that the end game came at level 50, it would surely fix the complaints about VR being a grind.

Personally the champion system at 400,000 experience per champion point is an even worse grind than VR. Whilst to get to VR14 from VR1 is currently around 13 million points, to get to top level of the Champion system it takes something like 1440 million points. If you think VR is a boring grind then the champion system is hell on earth.

Certainly the champion system is no Game changer as to retaining customers after the Molag Bal 'incident' But then maybe retaining customers is not what it is all about. Certainly cheaper for ZoS to get people buying the console game, deciding after a few months they have 'had it with the game' and leave. Then shut down the servers and take their profit. Game over .

Dimillian

Is there any rule saying you need to collect every CP as fast as possible? I'm here for the journey, not the destination.

I_killed_Vivec

I see two separate "problems" with VR.

The first is that some people expect to achieve godlike status as soon as they have defeated Molag Bal - they want to be competitive in PvP and in trials and have access to ALL of the game's content. (I find this a strange attitude, boiling down to "I want to be as powerful as a VR14, but without having to gain all that XP").

The second is that people leveling alts don't want to go through all of the game again - and don't want to have to grind up to VR14 either.

The Champion System goes some way to address the second problem because points are account wide. It does not provide a solution for those who want to be "competitive" as soon as they have defeated Moley, for the simple reason that they will have no CP, which will place them at a huge disadvantage.

XP = CP = Power

There's no getting round it - either quest through silver and gold or grind for XP to get those all important CP.

I know that some people have a manic degree of allegiance to their alliance, but I was happy to see the other alliances with my main character and without having to level an alt.

Alphashado

Khami wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I see two separate "problems" with VR.

The first is that some people expect to achieve godlike status as soon as they have defeated Molag Bal - they want to be competitive in PvP and in trials and have access to ALL of the game's content. (I find this a strange attitude, boiling down to "I want to be as powerful as a VR14, but without having to gain all that XP").

The second is that people leveling alts don't want to go through all of the game again - and don't want to have to grind up to VR14 either.

The Champion System goes some way to address the second problem because points are account wide. It does not provide a solution for those who want to be "competitive" as soon as they have defeated Moley, for the simple reason that they will have no CP, which will place them at a huge disadvantage.

XP = CP = Power

There's no getting round it - either quest through silver and gold or grind for XP to get those all important CP.

I know that some people have a manic degree of allegiance to their alliance, but I was happy to see the other alliances with my main character and without having to level an alt.

Most games are set up for you to hit max level when you finish the main story. This game has 13 more levels for the player to grind after beating the main story.

Bold text is the core foundation of the problem. The 2cnd part of the problem is that each Vet Rank = roughly 10 levels. So it isn't 13 more levels to get through after you beat the story, it's 130.

firstdecan

Dimillian wrote: »

Is there any rule saying you need to collect every CP as fast as possible? I'm here for the journey, not the destination.

It's not a rule, it's a law. It's Darwinism applied to PvP. Many people do not appreciate the time it takes to get to max level so they are on an equal footing in a competitive environment. They will spend some time enjoying "the journey" of levelling a character, but when it will take years of advancement to be on an equal footing as other players (the champion system), it simply encourages competitive players to move to a game where that kind of commitment is not necessary.

You don't have to worry though, ZOS has made it clear that they are not interested in those players. They will focus on expanding simple minded and repetitive tasks, like mat farming, to appeal to players who enjoy the journey.

Seraphyel

Dimillian wrote: »

Is there any rule saying you need to collect every CP as fast as possible? I'm here for the journey, not the destination.

The journey ends sooner than you like it and after that?

Jaxsun

Garwulf wrote: »

Disagree with this.. you are certainly entitled too .


If ZOS can actually remove Vet Levels with out screwing it up or alienating a lot of people or both I will be surprised.

Personally I cannot see the point in going through the hassle of actually trying to remove Vet levels, readjusting potions, food, enchants, equipment and crafting materials. Whilst the champion system was an add on, the VR system is buried deep within the game.

So what is wrong with the VR system... as far as I can tell it is that I take so long to get to VR14. Currently 1 million points per level (originally much, much worse)

Possible Solutions;
a) reduce the VR points significantly so that getting to VR14 is relatively easily or
b) replace VR1to 14 with levels 51 to 63 with the same level progression as from 0 to 50.
Both would require a modification of Monster levels in Cadwell's silver and gold but surely easier to do successfully than a total revamp of the game levelling system. No equipment, crafting etc would need to change.

Whilst it will not fix the major problem with this game, the fact that the end game came at level 50, it would surely fix the complaints about VR being a grind.

Personally the champion system at 400,000 experience per champion point is an even worse grind than VR. Whilst to get to VR14 from VR1 is currently around 13 million points, to get to top level of the Champion system it takes something like 1440 million points. If you think VR is a boring grind then the champion system is hell on earth.

Certainly the champion system is no Game changer as to retaining customers after the Molag Bal 'incident' But then maybe retaining customers is not what it is all about. Certainly cheaper for ZoS to get people buying the console game, deciding after a few months they have 'had it with the game' and leave. Then shut down the servers and take their profit. Game over .

+1

Folkb

Dimillian wrote: »

Is there any rule saying you need to collect every CP as fast as possible? I'm here for the journey, not the destination.

Everyone says that till they get curb stomped in cyrodiil by the guy who grinded CP like a madman.

andrantos

Once again, I think the Champion system is a far better concept than Veteran Ranks - granted, that is only in theory.

The problem with VRs were that they are glorified levels. The VR were itemized - various items and gear only available at certain VRs. Coupled that with the fact that despite a variety of end-game possibilities (pvp, adventure zones, craglorn, etc..) only certain aspects were efficient at progressing through VRs.

If the Champion system is balanced well, it should provide some form of slow, steady advancement at level 50. However, you should now be able to do whatever it is you like to do and make decent progress.

Basically, the success of the system is heavily reliant on players being able to do what they find most fun at the end-game and make steady CP progress (as opposed to playing to grind as some of ya'll did with VR). If Zenimax fails in this regard then yes, the CP will fail as VR did.

Shinra

Folkd wrote: »

Dimillian wrote: »

Is there any rule saying you need to collect every CP as fast as possible? I'm here for the journey, not the destination.

Everyone says that till they get curb stomped in cyrodiil by the guy who grinded CP like a madman.

Somebody who grinded through all of the Champion System deserves your respect anyway. The XP are as much as 275 - 1440 Veteran Levels, depending on your enlightment, as well as XP Potions, rings of Mara and subscription boost.

Soulshine

The missing elephant in the room = new content.

Neither system will work for the vast majority of players if they cannot improve the schedule of content delivery. ZoS has already stated in no uncertain terms to expect content to be slower this year than in the past.

The current systems changes of both VR and the addition of CP may not seem like a big deal to anyone not yet at 50, since many seem to view all this and the CP system in particular as something that "just runs in the background while you level." I wish I had a penny for every time I have read that line here.

Well, what about those who don't need to level? The only options left are repeatable [insert activity of choice here] events, which = grind.

If they expect people to embrace the CP system, they first have to make it possible for people to continue progressing across the full spectrum of the game.

Earning CPs is going to be inherently tied to the content schedule at end game, not at the pre level 50 since you cannot even begin to earn points until post level 50 anyway. And to anyone saying they are here for the journey, I assure you the "journey" to 50 is very short and can only be slowed down so much, even when trying.

Excuses about revamping the game, fixing bugs, adjusting tech to four different platforms, re-envisioning constantly the way class balance should be, etc. as reasons for the content delays can be seen as valid only to a point. There is a larger issue at work in all that, which is that it has caused many feel this game was just largely incomplete, released too soon, and with little real vision about what it was supposed to actually be. Some people lost confidence in the game being worthwhile and left as a result.

If they cannot stop with the forever tinkering of systems and instead provide regular delivery on content to expand the game beyond one zone per year (which is what they have managed to date), they are not going to take us anywhere other than to another title to play.

andrantos

Soulshine wrote: »

If they cannot stop with the forever tinkering of systems and instead provide regular delivery on content to expand the game beyond one zone per year (which is what they have managed to date), they are not going to take us anywhere other than to another title to play.

I believe it has been expressed that going forward, we should be seeing more in the way of new content and less tinkering of current systems. While we have seen some new content since release (ex: Craglorn), a bulk has really been either new systems (ex: dye system and upcoming justice system) or entire revamps to an existing system (ex: champion points replacing VRs).

The focus will change with the upcoming console and B2P releases.

Soulshine

andrantos wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

If they cannot stop with the forever tinkering of systems and instead provide regular delivery on content to expand the game beyond one zone per year (which is what they have managed to date), they are not going to take us anywhere other than to another title to play.

I believe it has been expressed that going forward, we should be seeing more in the way of new content and less tinkering of current systems. While we have seen some new content since release (ex: Craglorn), a bulk has really been either new systems (ex: dye system and upcoming justice system) or entire revamps to an existing system (ex: champion points replacing VRs).

The focus will change with the upcoming console and B2P releases.

I will believe that when it actually happens, given the many times similar statements have been made.

andrantos

Soulshine wrote: »

I will believe that when it actually happens, given the many times similar statements have been made.

Touché! All these new systems and revamps will simply go to waste if there isn't any new content to go with it. The first update post console release will be telling.

Unfortunately, their priorities will be geared towards the B2P launch across all platforms. I hope their quick to reveal the roadmap going forward soon afterwards.

Pirhana7_ESO

I

Jaxsun wrote: »

Garwulf wrote: »

Disagree with this.. you are certainly entitled too .


If ZOS can actually remove Vet Levels with out screwing it up or alienating a lot of people or both I will be surprised.

Personally I cannot see the point in going through the hassle of actually trying to remove Vet levels, readjusting potions, food, enchants, equipment and crafting materials. Whilst the champion system was an add on, the VR system is buried deep within the game.

So what is wrong with the VR system... as far as I can tell it is that I take so long to get to VR14. Currently 1 million points per level (originally much, much worse)

Possible Solutions;
a) reduce the VR points significantly so that getting to VR14 is relatively easily or
b) replace VR1to 14 with levels 51 to 63 with the same level progression as from 0 to 50.
Both would require a modification of Monster levels in Cadwell's silver and gold but surely easier to do successfully than a total revamp of the game levelling system. No equipment, crafting etc would need to change.

Whilst it will not fix the major problem with this game, the fact that the end game came at level 50, it would surely fix the complaints about VR being a grind.

Personally the champion system at 400,000 experience per champion point is an even worse grind than VR. Whilst to get to VR14 from VR1 is currently around 13 million points, to get to top level of the Champion system it takes something like 1440 million points. If you think VR is a boring grind then the champion system is hell on earth.

Certainly the champion system is no Game changer as to retaining customers after the Molag Bal 'incident' But then maybe retaining customers is not what it is all about. Certainly cheaper for ZoS to get people buying the console game, deciding after a few months they have 'had it with the game' and leave. Then shut down the servers and take their profit. Game over .

+1

I think you are missing the point of what the Champion System is exactly. For the Vet Ranks you needed to be max rank 14 to be able to compete in Cyrodiil or in Trials. BUT the Champion System doesnt work that way. The Champion system is a very long term progression system with very small improvements. You do not need to be a certain Champion rank to be able to compete like you did with vet ranks.

The Champion system is there to reward you for your time playing and doing what you want to do like Cyrodiil, trials or even crafting. You get rewarded for playing and keep getting points to make your character slightly stronger so you never hit that "Im finished wall". So dont look at Champion points like its something you need to grind, just play and do what you want to do and get rewarded while doing that.

I_killed_Vivec

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

I think you are missing the point of what the Champion System is exactly. For the Vet Ranks you needed to be max rank 14 to be able to compete in Cyrodiil or in Trials. BUT the Champion System doesnt work that way. The Champion system is a very long term progression system with very small improvements. You do not need to be a certain Champion rank to be able to compete like you did with vet ranks.

The Champion system is there to reward you for your time playing and doing what you want to do like Cyrodiil, trials or even crafting. You get rewarded for playing and keep getting points to make your character slightly stronger so you never hit that "Im finished wall". So dont look at Champion points like its something you need to grind, just play and do what you want to do and get rewarded while doing that.

There will be no difference between the relative "power" of someone currently VR14 and someone with the equivalent CP.

""You do not need to be a certain Champion rank"?

If you walk into PvP having just attained level 50, with no CP, thinking you can compete with someone with a hundred CP "because the Champion System makes things different" then you are sadly mistaken.

XP = power

It doesn't matter if XP is converted to VR or to CP. The more XP you have collected the more powerful you will be.

And that's why people will grind

Folkb

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Pirhana7_ESO wrote: »

I think you are missing the point of what the Champion System is exactly. For the Vet Ranks you needed to be max rank 14 to be able to compete in Cyrodiil or in Trials. BUT the Champion System doesnt work that way. The Champion system is a very long term progression system with very small improvements. You do not need to be a certain Champion rank to be able to compete like you did with vet ranks.

The Champion system is there to reward you for your time playing and doing what you want to do like Cyrodiil, trials or even crafting. You get rewarded for playing and keep getting points to make your character slightly stronger so you never hit that "Im finished wall". So dont look at Champion points like its something you need to grind, just play and do what you want to do and get rewarded while doing that.

There will be no difference between the relative "power" of someone currently VR14 and someone with the equivalent CP.

""You do not need to be a certain Champion rank"?

If you walk into PvP having just attained level 50, with no CP, thinking you can compete with someone with a hundred CP "because the Champion System makes things different" then you are sadly mistaken.

XP = power

It doesn't matter if XP is converted to VR or to CP. The more XP you have collected the more powerful you will be.

And that's why people will grind

I thought the CP system was going to be awesome but the more I play on PTS the more im worried about the barrier of entry to be competitive in PVP.

EsORising

Dimillian wrote: »

Is there any rule saying you need to collect every CP as fast as possible? I'm here for the journey, not the destination.

"The journey is more important than the end" - Linkin Park

EsORising

I have 4 VR char's with my highest at vr 10 and I say good riddence to the VR system. Championship will take away the pressure from leveling as well as reward us for our time and distribute the wealth amoung our characters. The thought of getting my alts to vr14 was depressing. VR was a time sink with no end goal so I cant wait to say "bye" to it.

My only gripe with VR going away is: how many variations of armor is there going to be with only one maxed out level to work with. Also, if vr14 = 70CP then does that mean to get 3600cp I'm doing VR14 about 51x? Either way I'm in.

I'm just glad we get something for grinding now that will allow us to customize and tweak our character to our gamestyle. I'll prob never get 3600 pts but I'll get enough to max out my prefered stats.

RazielSR

The game is for console players now. It is about grinding and p2w shop. It is all done and set,the game goes the console path.

NewBlacksmurf

Garwulf wrote: »

Disagree with this.. you are certainly entitled too .


If ZOS can actually remove Vet Levels with out screwing it up or alienating a lot of people or both I will be surprised.

Personally I cannot see the point in going through the hassle of actually trying to remove Vet levels, readjusting potions, food, enchants, equipment and crafting materials. Whilst the champion system was an add on, the VR system is buried deep within the game.

So what is wrong with the VR system... as far as I can tell it is that I take so long to get to VR14. Currently 1 million points per level (originally much, much worse)

Possible Solutions;
a) reduce the VR points significantly so that getting to VR14 is relatively easily or
b) replace VR1to 14 with levels 51 to 63 with the same level progression as from 0 to 50.
Both would require a modification of Monster levels in Cadwell's silver and gold but surely easier to do successfully than a total revamp of the game levelling system. No equipment, crafting etc would need to change.

Whilst it will not fix the major problem with this game, the fact that the end game came at level 50, it would surely fix the complaints about VR being a grind.

Personally the champion system at 400,000 experience per champion point is an even worse grind than VR. Whilst to get to VR14 from VR1 is currently around 13 million points, to get to top level of the Champion system it takes something like 1440 million points. If you think VR is a boring grind then the champion system is hell on earth.

Certainly the champion system is no Game changer as to retaining customers after the Molag Bal 'incident' But then maybe retaining customers is not what it is all about. Certainly cheaper for ZoS to get people buying the console game, deciding after a few months they have 'had it with the game' and leave. Then shut down the servers and take their profit. Game over .

It's the VR levels, silver and gold quests that need to go. No need to retool items and gear. Just make them all Lvl 50 and any new drops would produce appropriate stats based on the new adjustment.

That's the basic simple fix. The VR mobs would not change as CP's create character progression but their levels would move to a numeric system instead of VR levels.

It's really that simple

I_killed_Vivec

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

It's the VR levels, silver and gold quests that need to go. No need to retool items and gear. Just make them all Lvl 50 and any new drops would produce appropriate stats based on the new adjustment.

That's the basic simple fix. The VR mobs would not change as CP's create character progression but their levels would move to a numeric system instead of VR levels.

It's really that simple

A "numeric" system instead of VR? How is VR not numeric? It is a number!

No need to retool items and gear? What about the materials used in crafting? What about the level of enchantment you can put on gear? What about the potions you use and the food and drink you eat?

If you are only playing the game through drops then maybe a flat level 50 would work, but if you craft - or use anything that has been crafted - then the VR system is deeply embedded in the game.

Also, people want to be competitive in Craglorn and PvP as soon as they reach level 50 with no CP. That leaves people who have hundreds of CP with nowhere to go - unless some form of scaling is implemented. Maybe scaling off CP? Create zones with gradations based on ten CP / 1 million XP?

How does that differ from VR gates?

It really isn't that simple.

jeevin

The Veteran Ranks really need to be gone before console launch or Zos can expect another mass exodus not long after. Veteran Ranks killed off a huge percentage of players already so Zos don't make the same mistake again!

Kragorn

Dimillian wrote: »

Is there any rule saying you need to collect every CP as fast as possible? I'm here for the journey, not the destination.

The trouble is, your journey in this game is gated by having to do group content .. and your ability to do that is gated by your ability to be 'accepted' by the min./max elite.

I entirely go along with your view, the 1-50 game supports it, currently the post-VR10 game doesn't and what goes between is a lot more tedious without 'grouping up'.

firstdecan

Folkd wrote: »

I thought the CP system was going to be awesome but the more I play on PTS the more im worried about the barrier of entry to be competitive in PVP.

Champion is an even longer grind, the only real benefit is that it is account wide instead of character specific. It will make the difference between people who have only a few hours a week and people who have a few hours a day much more pronounced.

RazielSR wrote: »

The game is for console players now. It is about grinding and p2w shop. It is all done and set,the game goes the console path.

Agreed. The target audience is now people who have hours a day to play instead of the working adult gamer. The only people who will enjoy the game are the ones who are getting their 70CP now and will know how to grind out CPs quickly when 1.6 releases. ZOS has reduced their marketability with the decisions they have made.

jeevin wrote: »

The Veteran Ranks really need to be gone before console launch or Zos can expect another mass exodus not long after. Veteran Ranks killed off a huge percentage of players already so Zos don't make the same mistake again!

ZOS has already made the same mistake. Veteran Ranks made the game take too long for people who were interested in the competitive aspects of the game. The Champion System just exacerbates the issue. The whole console release is just a quick cash grab before the game is completely F2P.