What could be added to the store that would be pay to win?

Gidorick

Be as specific as you can be.

I ask because people are saying that XP boost potions are NOT pay to win. This has made me realize that I don't quite get what pay to win is if it's not paying for faster progression?

Buying a token that automatically gains you the next level?
Buying a stack of CP points?

For transparency: While I understand why people don't want pay to win items to be in the Crown Store, I couldn't care less. I'm playing ESO for the TES roleplaying experience. I don't care about leaderboards and such, so my perspective of what pay to win might be skewed and why I might be ok labeling items as pay to win items, such as XP boosts.

Thanks.

Jando

Warlock Rings

Varicite

I already think that XP boosts are pay to win, due to the super grindy CP system.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

geoffreyb14_ESO wrote: »

Warlock Rings

OMG...Don't even joke like that..

DanielMaxwell

Pretty much anything that increases a players power , rate of progression , or anything else that some one will consider as being some form of pay to win .

the simple fact is regardless of what we the players say we do not want in the cash/crown shop the management will place anything that they believe they can make a profit from in that store .

to make it clear I do not want anything in the store that is any form of pay to win

Roechacca

You can never really win a MMO so anyrhing goes .

dharbert

You can't "win" an MMO. If you are a horrible player, no amount of gear sold in a cash shop will make you better than someone who has actual skill. If you suck, you suck, no matter how much money you spend.

wraith808

There's not really an established definition, in all honesty- different people think different things. I don't view progression as pay to win, I view things that come from progression as pay to win personally.

XP gain? You're pretty much going to outlevel the content doing that, and get to the same place that I am. With the champion system, if they increase rates of points gained, especially because of the breadth of the system... that would be skirting really close.

Paying for drops and such that are useful... i.e. the kidding about the Warlock rings is really what I consider pay to win. And that's whether it's an item, or something to boost an item (Neverwinter, I'm looking at you)

Majic

Win For Sale

If it gives an advantage in PvP, it's pay-to-win.

An example would be "store brands" in LOTRO: protective buffs available only from the cash shop that grant immunity to control effects in PvMP.

After watching a single minstrel waste about 20 creeps by popping one, I stopped participating in LOTRO PvMP, and when GW2 came out later, stopped playing the game altogether.

There's much debate about what constitutes "P2W", but I can guarantee that when something is really Pay-To-Win, there's no doubt about it.

eisberg

Basically what Majic said. If you are given any kind of power that is not available outside of the store, that is Pay to Win. This is why XP boosts potions are not pay to win, cause everyone gets to the same place anyways, and everybody levels at different paces anyways, regardless of XP potions or not.

wraith808

Majic wrote: »

If it gives an advantage in PvP, it's pay-to-win.

Personally, I think that's too narrow a definition. Something can affect PvE and still be pay to win... especially with the structure of the trials and rewards for the same.

TheBull

Gold buying, armor sets/weapon sets, skill lines.

Krist

I guess I would only view P2W as PvP stuff. That would be the only thing that would effect me as a player, is if someone has advantage in PvP because they paid more money. Other than that, more power to them. I dont see an advantage of being uber in PvE other than boasting rights? If the uber is on your team, well, he/she benefits everyone. I do not begrudge companies making money with their product, after all, that is why we have such a product.
Just my 2 cents on it, surely not worth a penny.

Ninnghizhidda

My definition of "PayToWin" is rather simple: 1) Anything that is not available in-game and has an impact on the game. 2) Also, anything that would be required in order to upgrade items in-game and is not available in-game or "secures" said upgrades.

In the case of 1) you could have a wide range of items or services. For example you could have "special" gear, be it weapons, armour or jewelry, that doesn't exist in the game itself and possesses at least good enough stats as top tier gear found in-game.

In the case of 2), here is an example. Let's say you can upgrade your gear 10 levels (say, make it +10), with every next step having ever decreasing chances of success. There are no items in-game that can help you lower the rate of failure, or the ones that might be available are insufficient.

Failure in an attempt to upgrade could have really catastrophic consequences, resulting in even the destruction of the item in question (and all materials required for the upgrade). Or could be less severe, like losing "upgrade levels", and this could lead into a vicious circle, where you can never really achieve the high(est) levels of upgrade.

Now, enter the "PayToWin" Cash Shop. Which conveniently offers items to make the process easier, safer or eliminate it all together. Depending on the system and the price.

So, people with fat wallets (the "whales") will always have the upper hand, simply because they can afford to "be the best", while "non spenders" will have no way and no chance to achieve the same.

There are lesser forms of "PayToWin" like all those XP boosts and whatnot, but I would call them more "convenience stuff" indeed, or just buy your way to top level or "end game" without putting in the effort or time, however this would not really change the fact that someone choosing this way will by no means necessarily have an edge and probably still be a "noob".

Paying hard cash to obtain the best, "uber" and absolutely top gear though, that others simply can not even if they are playing 24/7 and are game geniuses, that is a different story, even if the "whales" are incompetent "noobs".

Govalon

eisberg wrote: »

Basically what Majic said. If you are given any kind of power that is not available outside of the store, that is Pay to Win. This is why XP boosts potions are not pay to win, cause everyone gets to the same place anyways, and everybody levels at different paces anyways, regardless of XP potions or not.

This is false. You won't be able to max out in this game so those who sub will have permanent 10% more cp than they would without sub. Those who buy xp potions will have even more.

Everyone will not "get to the same place anyway". More like, nobody will ever be in the same place as everyone else.

Gidorick

So the idea of selling FUNCTIONAL gear in the cash shop seems to be a factor in the pay-to-win question If ZOS never sells gear in the cash shop that provides advantages in game... everyone's happy!

By gear I mean wearable non-consumable items.

Ace_SiN

Pay2Win: Anything that allows a player to gain a noticeable amount of power in game, through the shop, that makes a negative impact on a non paying player. This can be done directly(gear or strong buffs) or indirectly(gold).

This can be done several ways, but it also depends on the systems already in place in game. For example, ArcheAge does NOT sell gear in the shop. The game is still p2w though, because it gives access to gold. Now getting gold is not a huge problem on its own, but the grindy nature of ArcheAge's crafting system makes it a powerful tool to push progression. In case you're not aware of AA crafting system. It's a system built on really low rng that's meant to be a "wall" to slow down how fast you progress through it(because it's a game based on a player ran economy, but nothing ever leaves the economy on its own once a player crafts a piece of gear). As a reward for suffering through this(if you get lucky), you're awarded with a huge spike in power over those with lesser gear.

The gold essentially allows any whale(someone with a huge amount of disposable income) to brute force their way legally through these "walls". So, what would take the average player 6+ months to years to achieve, these guys are getting it in a few short weeks. They are essentially gods on the battlefield, because the average player doesn't even have a comparable weapon to make a dent through their defenses.

TL;DR

When you think of p2w, think of this:

Rezzy64

"Pay to Win" is anything that allows a player to take shortcuts or ignore inconveniences within the game's design and/or mechanics by paying money that would otherwise not be available to players who do not pay. It's about spending money to gain time, the more money you spend on things that save you time, the more you can use that time for things you would much rather be doing instead.

It's a wide range and vague, because that's how "Pay to Win" takes over.

Experience Boosters are pay to win (despite the incredible amount of people who do not think so), with all that time you spend grinding and leveling, wouldn't you rather spend that time PVPing, or doing Pledges, or doing Trials? Someone who uses experience boosters can save time on grinding and spend more time on their PVP rank or climbing the trial leader boards.

BlueIllyrian

Judging by the loyalists, absolutely nothing is p2w. I am tempted to say it starts with potions but exp boosters will do nicely.

Gyudan

First we had the crown store repair kits, that are immensely more effective than the regular repair kits found in Tamriel. Since nobody uses them anyway and they alone can't really unbalance the game, this was probably just to test the water before adding more popular items to the list.


Now we get XP boost potions that will probably work on Champion points as well along with the 10% boost for subs, otherwise @ZOS would have denied it by now. Many players have been complaining about the VR and CP grind and while I don't think that this is a real issue, having ways to speed up that process by 10-20-50% puts everything in a different perspective.

I think that the next P2W items to surface will be:
- loot boosts: increase your chances at boss drops and node harvesting
- materials: flowers, purple ingredients, purple/gold crafting improvements
- gear from the veteran dungeons: Worm's Raiment, Hircine's Veneer, Ebon Armory, Healing Thorn, ... That stuff has been around since day 1 and can be obtained from any veteran dungeon boss randomly. Getting separate pieces from the store would be convenience™.

kevlarto_ESO

fuzzy bunny slippers, and the sword of a thousand truths

Joejudas

exp boosters...o wait they are already doing those. -__-

Turelus

Varicite wrote: »

I already think that XP boosts are pay to win, due to the super grindy CP system.

Then subsribers are already paying to win over non-sub players.

Everyone has a different view on what P2W is, some think any advantage of any kind if P2W, which is where my above comment about the subs comes from.

For me personally P2W would be on the levels of gear or items which have higher stats than items I can earn in game via content or crafting.

However I also don't want to see ESO go the route SWTOR did where while none of the items in the store were P2W they were all the best looking armours, mounts and cosmetics in the game, mean I had very little reason to play content as everything that was made to be good came from my credit card not my gameplay.

TheShadowScout

Pay to win in my opinion is only stuff that boosts character abilities over what is attainable in the game.
If they started selling armor sets with better stats then can be found/craftes for example. Say, if in-game you could only find, craft or purchase armor up to V14, but the crown store sold V15 equivalent... (or the worst evil of FtP games, keys to special lockboxes with may contain such armor...)

XP potions? Nah. Actually those are pretty much a waste of crowns. Why pay for something that lets you get some amount of experience in 54 minutes that others will take an hour for? Just play those darn six more minutes yourself and save your crowns...

jpp

repair kit that improves item(s) stats to 125% of it's initial value
nirnhorned or other traits that are better then any found in game

nerevarine1138

Gyudan wrote: »

First we had the crown store repair kits, that are immensely more effective than the regular repair kits found in Tamriel. Since nobody uses them anyway and they alone can't really unbalance the game, this was probably just to test the water before adding more popular items to the list.


Now we get XP boost potions that will probably work on Champion points as well along with the 10% boost for subs, otherwise @ZOS would have denied it by now. Many players have been complaining about the VR and CP grind and while I don't think that this is a real issue, having ways to speed up that process by 10-20-50% puts everything in a different perspective.

I think that the next P2W items to surface will be:
- loot boosts: increase your chances at boss drops and node harvesting
- materials: flowers, purple ingredients, purple/gold crafting improvements
- gear from the veteran dungeons: Worm's Raiment, Hircine's Veneer, Ebon Armory, Healing Thorn, ... That stuff has been around since day 1 and can be obtained from any veteran dungeon boss randomly. Getting separate pieces from the store would be convenience™.

How is that repair kit better than the in-game kits?

Also, it's worth pointing out that the Road Ahead indicated that XP Boosts will be available for in-game gold as well. Are you guys going to start whining about "play-to-win" next?

Govalon

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

First we had the crown store repair kits, that are immensely more effective than the regular repair kits found in Tamriel. Since nobody uses them anyway and they alone can't really unbalance the game, this was probably just to test the water before adding more popular items to the list.


Now we get XP boost potions that will probably work on Champion points as well along with the 10% boost for subs, otherwise @ZOS would have denied it by now. Many players have been complaining about the VR and CP grind and while I don't think that this is a real issue, having ways to speed up that process by 10-20-50% puts everything in a different perspective.

I think that the next P2W items to surface will be:
- loot boosts: increase your chances at boss drops and node harvesting
- materials: flowers, purple ingredients, purple/gold crafting improvements
- gear from the veteran dungeons: Worm's Raiment, Hircine's Veneer, Ebon Armory, Healing Thorn, ... That stuff has been around since day 1 and can be obtained from any veteran dungeon boss randomly. Getting separate pieces from the store would be convenience™.

How is that repair kit better than the in-game kits?

Also, it's worth pointing out that the Road Ahead indicated that XP Boosts will be available for in-game gold as well. Are you guys going to start whining about "play-to-win" next?

Repair kits repair only one of your item. Cashshop-kits repair them all.

pppontus

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

First we had the crown store repair kits, that are immensely more effective than the regular repair kits found in Tamriel. Since nobody uses them anyway and they alone can't really unbalance the game, this was probably just to test the water before adding more popular items to the list.


Now we get XP boost potions that will probably work on Champion points as well along with the 10% boost for subs, otherwise @ZOS would have denied it by now. Many players have been complaining about the VR and CP grind and while I don't think that this is a real issue, having ways to speed up that process by 10-20-50% puts everything in a different perspective.

I think that the next P2W items to surface will be:
- loot boosts: increase your chances at boss drops and node harvesting
- materials: flowers, purple ingredients, purple/gold crafting improvements
- gear from the veteran dungeons: Worm's Raiment, Hircine's Veneer, Ebon Armory, Healing Thorn, ... That stuff has been around since day 1 and can be obtained from any veteran dungeon boss randomly. Getting separate pieces from the store would be convenience™.

How is that repair kit better than the in-game kits?

Also, it's worth pointing out that the Road Ahead indicated that XP Boosts will be available for in-game gold as well. Are you guys going to start whining about "play-to-win" next?

It repairs all gear in one go, not one item.

Jahosefat

A set of gear that is better than anything you can find otherwise in the game; or is very difficult/expensive to acquire.

Alphashado

Being able to equip an epic set of VR14 gear a little sooner than the next guy is not P2W.

Being able to buy that gear in the cash store is P2W.

karmamule

If it's a convenience item that a non-paying player could gain the equivalent of over a reasonable amount of time (of course the definition of 'reasonable' will vary person-to-person) then I don't see it as pay to win. It's letting you substitute money for effort.

XP potions give players a choice: buy the potions so you can play a little less and instead spend money to keep up with those who have a little more time, or don't buy the potions and play a little more to keep up with those who are buying the potions. In the end it comes down to semantics: do you think someone being able to expend less time by spending more money is in-and-of-itself "winning"? If so then some of the cash shop items are pay-to-win. But, that's not my definition of it:

For me pay-to-win is when they make items/armor available in the cash shop that have nothing of equivalent power attainable through simply playing for free in the game world.

In other words, if you HAVE to pay to get the best items/armor/weapons, then it is P2W. But, because crafted items will still be better than anything available in the crown store (other than cosmetic items for appearances sake) I don't see anything P2W here.