Discussion of Sorcerer Changes and its Impact on PvP Mechanics & Group Play.

LazyLewis

Okay so my current opinion on Sorcerers in PvP (1.5 Point of View) is that certain aspects of the Sorc are ridiculously over powered and the 1.6 changes are completely necessary.

This topic is mainly focused on the Negate Magic ultimate in the Sorcerer Skill Line and its Morph Absorption Field.

1. 100 DKs could drop 100 banners at one spot and 1 Negate can make them go away in a blink of an eye?

2. 1 Negate can heal an entire group for 100's of thousands

3. You basically get full magic when negating at least 6-7 ground affects

4. You silence enemies

5. Any ground affect used during a single negate is then 'sucked' up and added to the magic/health gain to all people inside the friendly negate.

6.It is not AEO capped (Unlike Nova, Banner, Soul Tether, Rite of Passage and many more Ultimate's)

7. Its a rather cheap ultimate in comparison to other ultimate's
Meteor Costing the same
Nova which is AEO capped

8. It should have originally cost more (even before the class line passives)

With certain groups within the game having so many sorcerers they can permanently keep up negates allowing them to be able to use skills other groups cannot because of their high amount of negates.

When fighting a group who has 15+ Sorcerer's you cannot use 10+ different skills in the game and 3 main ultimate's (Nova, Standard and Veil) because you are either going to feed their negate's or just simply waste your ultimate. Yes their are other ultimate's you can use in the game which are not ground affects but the point of this discussion is what negate can do and this is yet another thing it can do which is 'Ulti Block' you...so to speak.

Two people using healing springs constantly on their allies can keep health up more effectively than Breathe of Life spamming (cost's less, hit's more and it stacks). When fighting dense Sorc groups you cannot use this heal as it just gets Negated and unusable in their presence as it feeds them. (Healing Springs Close Quarter, Breathe for Slightly Spread formation)

The use of negates to the extreme that it is today has forced most healers to skill into burst healing which is costly, rather than 'tick healing' (Healing Springs, Regeneration). Regeneration is obviously not 'negatable' but is best used in combination with healing springs to keep heals constantly ticking allow Healers to Manage resources more easily. Burst healing was always in the equation but not to the extreme that it has now been forced into now.

Currently the group with the most negates generally wins. Not in every case. Their are certain techniques and maneuvers that you can use and implement to help win fights against 20 Man groups with 15 Sorcerer's. Moving on...

THE BIG CHANGES

Negate Magic 1.6.1

Supression Field (morph): This ability has been redesigned, and now applies the Minor Protection buff to your allies inside the field.

Absorption Field (morph): This ability has been redesigned. Allies who pass through the field now gain the buffs Major Expedition, Major Intellect, Major Fortitude, and Major Endurance for 12 seconds.

1.6.2

Negate Magic: This Ultimate ability now removes enemy-placed effects when it is initially cast instead of constantly for the entire duration of the ability. Also, this ability’s cost has been reduced by 10%.

So lets talk Buffs:

Minor Protection: Reduces damage taken by 8%
Major Expedition: Increases movement speed by 40%
Major Intellect: Increases magicka recovery by 30%
Major Fortitude: increases health recovery by 30%
Major Endurance: Increases stamina recovery by 30%

These are the new buffs for Negate. From what I can see with the other main class ultimate's none of them have no where near as many buffs as this gives you. Veil has been nerfed, standard has gone up and Nova's damage has been slightly increased.

If anyone does not understand the 1.6.2 change it basically means that when a Sorc negates an area what ever is there initially will be negated (Can still negate 100 Banners) but anything cast in the negate after the initial cast will not be negated. The duration of the negate will keep the 5 Stated Buffs above on the friendly's within the negate for the duration of the ultimate.

Overall I believe these changes are 100% necessary. If anyone can logically state why negate should not be changed and prove it's not Over Powered I will commend you. I do accept any other idea's that could lower negate from its current form beside's the new changes for 1.6.

The only thing I will say is the Sorcerer's do not have an effect heal for them self's besides negate. Crit Surge of course is effective depending on your build. Crit Surge is no Breathe of Life or Dragons Blood. There are passive's within Dark Magic that give healing but I woild not class them as effective. Each class should have access to some sort of Instant (costly) self heal like Templars and DK's do. I would also argue this point with Nightblades. They have 'situational heals'. Unliek the DK or Temp.

Ezareth

I think we all knew the changes to negate were long in coming and it brings the ultimate in line with other ultimates.

As someone who has tested the various defensive buffs I find suppression field to be practically worthless compared to absorption field (it doesn't affect damage shields). I think this should be Major Protection instead of Minor protection. The speed bonus in particular I find to be very useful. The ability to stun 6 NPCs under the negate are also very useful for flag assaults.

Negate is still a very powerful ultimate, just not the OP ultimate it has been in the past.

On the balance side, I think the sorc's inherent lack of an instant cast self heal is class-defining. Every class IMO should not have an instant cast heal but *all* classes have the ability to gain various instant cast heals through mage's guild or resto abilities. As the most mana-efficient class in the game I feel providing us with a magick based instant cast heal could be too strong.

Huntler

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

On the balance side, I think the sorc's inherent lack of an instant cast self heal is class-defining. Every class IMO should not have an instant cast heal but *all* classes have the ability to gain various instant cast heals through mage's guild or resto abilities. As the most mana-efficient class in the game I feel providing us with a magick based instant cast heal could be too strong.

I agree strongly, with a decent amount of crit and build planning, healing ward is already a fantastic option for sorcs. Coupled with the meta moving towards everyone running structured entropy, that is a hot to always have on top as well. I'm not worried about sorc's healing as so many others are, they are just fine.

Necessary changes to negate though no doubt. And anyone claiming it sucks now is absolutely batshit insane. You are literally the counter to the other strongest ultimates in the game. If you negate 1 ultimate, its paid for itself. If you negate anything else, thats all just gravy.

LazyLewis

Huntler wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

On the balance side, I think the sorc's inherent lack of an instant cast self heal is class-defining. Every class IMO should not have an instant cast heal but *all* classes have the ability to gain various instant cast heals through mage's guild or resto abilities. As the most mana-efficient class in the game I feel providing us with a magick based instant cast heal could be too strong.

I agree strongly, with a decent amount of crit and build planning, healing ward is already a fantastic option for sorcs. Coupled with the meta moving towards everyone running structured entropy, that is a hot to always have on top as well. I'm not worried about sorc's healing as so many others are, they are just fine.

Necessary changes to negate though no doubt. And anyone claiming it sucks now is absolutely batshit insane. You are literally the counter to the other strongest ultimates in the game. If you negate 1 ultimate, its paid for itself. If you negate anything else, thats all just gravy.

Perfectly put!

Yusuf

Funny thing is the only 2 "OP-things" people ever complain about the sorcerer were bolt escape and negate, 2 skills you have to be skilled and a good tactician for to use effectively. Otherwise those skills couldn't hurt a fly.

I'd be fine with the changes if negate magic would deal DAMAGE to the enemies but it doesn't. As it stands now it provides the same buffs as a TRI-STAT-POTION, something pvpers drink on cooldown while in combat, meaning it won't give anybody a buff he doesn't already have.

So before you ask for more or endorse these horrible nerfs, how about you play a sorcerer, huh?

Negate magic was supposed to be an area-denial-skill that should protect your group. If an enemy can just cc-break and throw his own ultimate in it there's no point to it.

Erock25

Huntler wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

On the balance side, I think the sorc's inherent lack of an instant cast self heal is class-defining. Every class IMO should not have an instant cast heal but *all* classes have the ability to gain various instant cast heals through mage's guild or resto abilities. As the most mana-efficient class in the game I feel providing us with a magick based instant cast heal could be too strong.

I agree strongly, with a decent amount of crit and build planning, healing ward is already a fantastic option for sorcs. Coupled with the meta moving towards everyone running structured entropy, that is a hot to always have on top as well. I'm not worried about sorc's healing as so many others are, they are just fine.

But what if you want to be a stamina sorc or if you don't want to use resto staff?

Fruitdog

Speaking of tripots, I have 1.6 negate question. If I drop a negate does that mean none of my allies inside it can chug a tripot? I guess I'm wondering because of the whole no spell pots when you have the prophecy buff up.

Jahosefat

I'll just leave this here... this type of negate tanking was killed in 1.6 (negate, ult generation, and wall of elements changes) and I agree it was probably a good thing. Though it was fun while it lasted

http://youtu.be/h4RxepnXYO0

Tripwyr

Fruitdog wrote: »

Speaking of tripots, I have 1.6 negate question. If I drop a negate does that mean none of my allies inside it can chug a tripot? I guess I'm wondering because of the whole no spell pots when you have the prophecy buff up.

No, the longest buff will always overwrite the shorter. This means that if the absorption field buff is longer than the Tripot buff, it will overwrite it and vice versa. You can always use the potions even if you already have the buff active.

ToRelax

If someone fed the Absorbtion Field with ground effects he was an idiot, sorry for his alliance mates.
If ZOS felt that was to strong, just like they think it's to hard to simply don't all stack up in PvP, alright, they made that nerf to it and gave it another effect (pretty useless with the buff system).
Now effectively taking away it's area denial is just making it useless. Oh great, I can counter an enemy ultimate for the most part, at least if it's not a DK, who already got his resources. And the second after we should gtfo, because someone put his own ult, wich actually does something, right inside my negate.

Tripwyr

ToRelax wrote: »

If someone fed the Absorbtion Field with ground effects he was an idiot, sorry for his alliance mates.
If ZOS felt that was to strong, just like they think it's to hard to simply don't all stack up in PvP, alright, they made that nerf to it and gave it another effect (pretty useless with the buff system).
Now effectively taking away it's area denial is just making it useless. Oh great, I can counter an enemy ultimate for the most part, at least if it's not a DK, who already got his resources. And the second after we should gtfo, because someone put his own ult, wich actually does something, right inside my negate.

This was a necessary change. Sorcerers were so powerful that the winning side of a fight was universally that which had the most Sorcerers.

Jahosefat

Tripwyr wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

If someone fed the Absorbtion Field with ground effects he was an idiot, sorry for his alliance mates.
If ZOS felt that was to strong, just like they think it's to hard to simply don't all stack up in PvP, alright, they made that nerf to it and gave it another effect (pretty useless with the buff system).
Now effectively taking away it's area denial is just making it useless. Oh great, I can counter an enemy ultimate for the most part, at least if it's not a DK, who already got his resources. And the second after we should gtfo, because someone put his own ult, wich actually does something, right inside my negate.

This was a necessary change. Sorcerers were so powerful that the winning side of a fight was universally that which had the most Sorcerers.

And pigeonholed sorcs on their ult choices (even though it was awesome variety is the spice of life ).

ToRelax

Tripwyr wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

If someone fed the Absorbtion Field with ground effects he was an idiot, sorry for his alliance mates.
If ZOS felt that was to strong, just like they think it's to hard to simply don't all stack up in PvP, alright, they made that nerf to it and gave it another effect (pretty useless with the buff system).
Now effectively taking away it's area denial is just making it useless. Oh great, I can counter an enemy ultimate for the most part, at least if it's not a DK, who already got his resources. And the second after we should gtfo, because someone put his own ult, wich actually does something, right inside my negate.

This was a necessary change. Sorcerers were so powerful that the winning side of a fight was universally that which had the most Sorcerers.

That is directly connected to the way ultimate was generated and the superiority of magicka builds over stamina builds in 1.5, as well as the AoE caps, causing zerg balling in the first place.

Ezareth

Fruitdog wrote: »

Speaking of tripots, I have 1.6 negate question. If I drop a negate does that mean none of my allies inside it can chug a tripot? I guess I'm wondering because of the whole no spell pots when you have the prophecy buff up.

This was fixed in 1.6.1.

Also note the 40% speed buff provided by absorption field isn't given to you with a Tri-pot.

ToRelax

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Fruitdog wrote: »

Speaking of tripots, I have 1.6 negate question. If I drop a negate does that mean none of my allies inside it can chug a tripot? I guess I'm wondering because of the whole no spell pots when you have the prophecy buff up.

This was fixed in 1.6.1.

Also note the 40% speed buff provided by absorption field isn't given to you with a Tri-pot.

Yes, it's given to you by maneuver instead .

Ezareth

ToRelax wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Fruitdog wrote: »

Speaking of tripots, I have 1.6 negate question. If I drop a negate does that mean none of my allies inside it can chug a tripot? I guess I'm wondering because of the whole no spell pots when you have the prophecy buff up.

This was fixed in 1.6.1.

Also note the 40% speed buff provided by absorption field isn't given to you with a Tri-pot.

Yes, it's given to you by maneuver instead .

True.

However, having an ultimate that negated ultimates and ground effects it was cast on, stunned all the NPCs under it, prevents unprotected enemies from casting under it, *and* provides exclusive buffs available nowhere else would be rather OP which would kind of be against the idea of nerfing it.

Tripwyr

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

ezareth_ESO wrote: »

Fruitdog wrote: »

Speaking of tripots, I have 1.6 negate question. If I drop a negate does that mean none of my allies inside it can chug a tripot? I guess I'm wondering because of the whole no spell pots when you have the prophecy buff up.

This was fixed in 1.6.1.

Also note the 40% speed buff provided by absorption field isn't given to you with a Tri-pot.

Yes, it's given to you by maneuver instead .

True.

However, having an ultimate that negated ultimates and ground effects it was cast on, stunned all the NPCs under it, prevents unprotected enemies from casting under it, *and* provides exclusive buffs available nowhere else would be rather OP which would kind of be against the idea of nerfing it.

Exactly. Maneuvers costs a ridiculous amount of stamina, while Negate removes existing ground effects (including potentially several ultimates), grants a speed buff for 8 seconds, and grants 20% regeneration to all attributes. It also costs less than on live.

Negate Magic is still extremely powerful.

LazyLewis

Negate will continue to be an amazingly powerful and 'battle changing' tool on this game as proven by some of my testing on the new PTS. Its buffs are amazing and the combination of all these buffs into 1 ultimate (which no other ultimate has) are still OP. Enjoy Sorcerer's!

WRX

I agree its still strong and now in line with other ultis. I would have like to see one nerf or the other however.

Either A) whatever ground effects the negate absorbed on cast get the magicka/health return as before (for people inside of course). Or B.) it still would control the ground for the allotted amount of time.

IMO A) is better however should be more like 7-10% per effect.

Digiman

LazyLewis wrote: »

Okay so my current opinion on Sorcerers in PvP (1.5 Point of View) is that certain aspects of the Sorc are ridiculously over powered and the 1.6 changes are completely necessary.

This topic is mainly focused on the Negate Magic ultimate in the Sorcerer Skill Line and its Morph Absorption Field.

1. 100 DKs could drop 100 banners at one spot and 1 Negate can make them go away in a blink of an eye?

2. 1 Negate can heal an entire group for 100's of thousands

3. You basically get full magic when negating at least 6-7 ground affects

4. You silence enemies

5. Any ground affect used during a single negate is then 'sucked' up and added to the magic/health gain to all people inside the friendly negate.

6.It is not AEO capped (Unlike Nova, Banner, Soul Tether, Rite of Passage and many more Ultimate's)

7. Its a rather cheap ultimate in comparison to other ultimate's
Meteor Costing the same
Nova which is AEO capped

8. It should have originally cost more (even before the class line passives)

With certain groups within the game having so many sorcerers they can permanently keep up negates allowing them to be able to use skills other groups cannot because of their high amount of negates.

When fighting a group who has 15+ Sorcerer's you cannot use 10+ different skills in the game and 3 main ultimate's (Nova, Standard and Veil) because you are either going to feed their negate's or just simply waste your ultimate. Yes their are other ultimate's you can use in the game which are not ground affects but the point of this discussion is what negate can do and this is yet another thing it can do which is 'Ulti Block' you...so to speak.

Two people using healing springs constantly on their allies can keep health up more effectively than Breathe of Life spamming (cost's less, hit's more and it stacks). When fighting dense Sorc groups you cannot use this heal as it just gets Negated and unusable in their presence as it feeds them. (Healing Springs Close Quarter, Breathe for Slightly Spread formation)

The use of negates to the extreme that it is today has forced most healers to skill into burst healing which is costly, rather than 'tick healing' (Healing Springs, Regeneration). Regeneration is obviously not 'negatable' but is best used in combination with healing springs to keep heals constantly ticking allow Healers to Manage resources more easily. Burst healing was always in the equation but not to the extreme that it has now been forced into now.

Currently the group with the most negates generally wins. Not in every case. Their are certain techniques and maneuvers that you can use and implement to help win fights against 20 Man groups with 15 Sorcerer's. Moving on...

THE BIG CHANGES

Negate Magic 1.6.1

Supression Field (morph): This ability has been redesigned, and now applies the Minor Protection buff to your allies inside the field.

Absorption Field (morph): This ability has been redesigned. Allies who pass through the field now gain the buffs Major Expedition, Major Intellect, Major Fortitude, and Major Endurance for 12 seconds.

1.6.2

Negate Magic: This Ultimate ability now removes enemy-placed effects when it is initially cast instead of constantly for the entire duration of the ability. Also, this ability’s cost has been reduced by 10%.

So lets talk Buffs:

Minor Protection: Reduces damage taken by 8%
Major Expedition: Increases movement speed by 40%
Major Intellect: Increases magicka recovery by 30%
Major Fortitude: increases health recovery by 30%
Major Endurance: Increases stamina recovery by 30%

These are the new buffs for Negate. From what I can see with the other main class ultimate's none of them have no where near as many buffs as this gives you. Veil has been nerfed, standard has gone up and Nova's damage has been slightly increased.

If anyone does not understand the 1.6.2 change it basically means that when a Sorc negates an area what ever is there initially will be negated (Can still negate 100 Banners) but anything cast in the negate after the initial cast will not be negated. The duration of the negate will keep the 5 Stated Buffs above on the friendly's within the negate for the duration of the ultimate.

Overall I believe these changes are 100% necessary. If anyone can logically state why negate should not be changed and prove it's not Over Powered I will commend you. I do accept any other idea's that could lower negate from its current form beside's the new changes for 1.6.

The only thing I will say is the Sorcerer's do not have an effect heal for them self's besides negate. Crit Surge of course is effective depending on your build. Crit Surge is no Breathe of Life or Dragons Blood. There are passive's within Dark Magic that give healing but I woild not class them as effective. Each class should have access to some sort of Instant (costly) self heal like Templars and DK's do. I would also argue this point with Nightblades. They have 'situational heals'. Unliek the DK or Temp.

I agree with you that as a Sorcerer Negate was actually imbalanced, but unfortunately where one problem is addressed 7 more takes its place.

We are now shield staking pet handlers, and we are still going to be forced to use negate, the only difference is now we may drop attronach so some one can get the huge berserk buff.

Asgari

Sorcs started out in 1.6 to be viable again and have it "easy mode" like the 3 others have had it for so long. With the changes to Crushing Shock it will be square 1 for a lot of players who play as sorcs seeing as they lost their main attack. They will look for many of the experienced sorc players to provide them with build options.

All i will say about the Crushing Shock change is that instead of the %10 dmg reduction it should have just been made 1 projectile instead of 3. Crushing shock lost its damage bonus from Flawless Dawn Breaker and Crit Surge is not as good as Entropy which all classes can use.

.........


Moving on to negate - The cost is fairly cheap now as far as ulties go for the buffs it provides. Negate builds will be a new meta for sorcs and with the cost of Negate and Killing Blow thefts you can almost drop negates just as fast. However, there will be zero negate farming inside of towers.

I already have a setup for my sorc that gets Negate under 160 ulti and can be dropped faster than the other 3 classes can get their class ulties up. Think outside the box and you will be just as effective.

ToRelax

WRX wrote: »

I agree its still strong and now in line with other ultis. I would have like to see one nerf or the other however.

Either A) whatever ground effects the negate absorbed on cast get the magicka/health return as before (for people inside of course). Or B.) it still would control the ground for the allotted amount of time.

IMO A) is better however should be more like 7-10% per effect.

Those could have been morph options, with B.) as the otherwise useless Suppression Field.

edit: Now i know why the dot after the B...

Mojomonkeyman

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Sorcs started out in 1.6 to be viable again and have it "easy mode" like the 3 others have had it for so long. With the changes to Crushing Shock it will be square 1 for a lot of players who play as sorcs seeing as they lost their main attack. They will look for many of the experienced sorc players to provide them with build options.

All i will say about the Crushing Shock change is that instead of the %10 dmg reduction it should have just been made 1 projectile instead of 3. Crushing shock lost its damage bonus from Flawless Dawn Breaker and Crit Surge is not as good as Entropy which all classes can use.

.........


Moving on to negate - The cost is fairly cheap now as far as ulties go for the buffs it provides. Negate builds will be a new meta for sorcs and with the cost of Negate and Killing Blow thefts you can almost drop negates just as fast. However, there will be zero negate farming inside of towers.

I already have a setup for my sorc that gets Negate under 160 ulti and can be dropped faster than the other 3 classes can get their class ulties up. Think outside the box and you will be just as effective.

Try it with double s&b and absorb magic + harness & hardened. Perfectly viable w. 4p Warlock since regen is boosted to 160+ through constitution (on live that is).

Snit

As a sorc, part of me is relieved that I will now have a choice of what ultimates to load. It's no longer Flawless Dawnbreaker and Negate every time

The new Ice Comet is too much fun not to use.

Asgari

Snit wrote: »

As a sorc, part of me is relieved that I will now have a choice of what ultimates to load. It's no longer Flawless Dawnbreaker and Negate every time

The new Ice Comet is too much fun not to use.

Shooting Star is a much better option imo.