Limitations of the constant need for tank and healers in the game.

Aetherion86

In the gaming industry it has always been the basic layout. A tank, a healer, and damage members. Why must it be that way? There will always be more players choosing damage roles than tanks and healers to go around.

Why not curve the dungeons to instead be no different than an arena match or like pvp but against the monsters. 4 players enter and challenge mobs to the final boss.

Players should not be penalized because of poor game designs that follow the same principles of other games. Always a tank always a healer.

Public dungeons don't need either so why should group dungeons be any more fickle and limit players from traversing through experiencing all of the game.

Use of the Undaunted guild to act as the replacement set of spells or such to allow any one to be the tank or healer without being the physical class. A rogue using a healing spell or a sorc using a tank defense without the need of the physical class.

And not having to distribute attribute points to use specific sets of armor or such. A sorc casts a defense boost while still dishing out damage or a rogue using a mass heal spell while still using sneak attacks and such.

I'm sure other players have wishes not to be forced to create characters with the necessary roles and lose their choice in what they want to be or how to play just to meet predetermined dungeon roles.

sommazzatoreb14_ESO

Yea.. the reason no one responded is because we like role playing games. Play a tank or healer if it bothers you.

Rosveen

Because we like tactical gameplay and group coordination. I can hack and slash my way through public dungeons, do you really want to turn all content into this?

Aetherion86 wrote: »

Use of the Undaunted guild to act as the replacement set of spells or such to allow any one to be the tank or healer without being the physical class. A rogue using a healing spell or a sorc using a tank defense without the need of the physical class.

And not having to distribute attribute points to use specific sets of armor or such. A sorc casts a defense boost while still dishing out damage or a rogue using a mass heal spell while still using sneak attacks and such.

The first: we can already do it. I'm not entirely sure about hard mode trials etc., but veteran dungeons and such allow for a variety of class-role combinations.

The second: it's tricky to balance. We once were at a point where everyone could softcap defenses in light armor and dish out damage for days, heavy armor passives were worthless in comparison. You can still try something like this, see all the naked runs. But doesn't it feel counter-intuitive and quite frustrating for heavy-armor wearers? If we have armor types, then each of them needs to specialize in something, otherwise why make the distinctions in the first place? But still, we can do it. Nightblade heals all have a damage component, they're a hybrid by their very nature. Funnel away.

DschiPeunt

I don't really understand how you want the game to be.
Make all content so, that every group of 4 people can complete it without having to think about their equipment or skills? The game is just not challenging then.
You can play a huge amount of solo content with whatever build you like, but the endgame content has(!) to be challenging and make people think about what equipment/skills/builds etc. to use.

PhatGrimReaper

Aetherion86 wrote: »

In the gaming industry it has always been the basic layout. A tank, a healer, and damage members. Why must it be that way? There will always be more players choosing damage roles than tanks and healers to go around.

Why not curve the dungeons to instead be no different than an arena match or like pvp but against the monsters. 4 players enter and challenge mobs to the final boss.

Players should not be penalized because of poor game designs that follow the same principles of other games. Always a tank always a healer.

Public dungeons don't need either so why should group dungeons be any more fickle and limit players from traversing through experiencing all of the game.

Use of the Undaunted guild to act as the replacement set of spells or such to allow any one to be the tank or healer without being the physical class. A rogue using a healing spell or a sorc using a tank defense without the need of the physical class.

And not having to distribute attribute points to use specific sets of armor or such. A sorc casts a defense boost while still dishing out damage or a rogue using a mass heal spell while still using sneak attacks and such.

I'm sure other players have wishes not to be forced to create characters with the necessary roles and lose their choice in what they want to be or how to play just to meet predetermined dungeon roles.

Also Santa,

May I have all the Trial Gear without having to complete the trials...
May I have 300 skill points to use as I see fit, without having to actually earn them....
May I have 100 Kuta, Tempering Alloy, Rosin and Wax just for being a good guy...
Could all new Toons I create be v14 from the start, I don't want to have to level them, it's too hard.
Could you also nerf all vet dungeons, trials and DSA, so I may solo them with my squishy DPS..........

Sorry mate, but someone has to take the damage, someone has to deal the damage and someone has to heal the damage.... Maybe we could have enemies that deal no damage.... or characters that take no damage?....

Maybe we could all give up video games and buy a couple of 'My Little Ponies'!!

Panda244

Doing vet dungeons I tank and DPS, bout 700-800 single target DPS, because I'm using my PvP spec, I don't need a healer present, but the DPS do, so you really only need a healer because DPS are DPS, and you really don't need a tank, just a DPS with sword/board that can taunt. At least for vet dungeons, for trials you want a tank that can spank the **** outta his buffs.

Aetherion86

It's a simple idea of an alternative rather than waiting 5-10 hours for a tank and a healer. Having to make a character to fit that role but losing the point behind your choice of character is the idea. Since the game makers haven't put in a successful alternative to the failed dungeon group finder.

PhatGrimReaper

Apparently my original post ruffled the OPs features due to it's sarcastic nature.
The OP has privately messaged me and asked me to post intelligently on his threads or not to post at all.
I will therefore attempt to be more eloquent in my response.

I might suggest joining one or more active PvE guilds. I find that being a member of four guilds and co-founding/administrating another, I very seldom have to wait very long for a group to play with.
I would also recommend encouraging friends to play. I started this game playing with two of my friends and we are now completing endgame content together along with another friend who started playing a couple of months after us.

As to removing the necessity for a tank in group play all together.... and who would take the damage in this perfect world you seek?
The fact remains, there is damage to be done, there is damage to be taken and damage that needs to be healed... you can get creative with how you deal with it, but the reality is, for 99% of the group content, these three things all need to happen and therefore you need someone to do them. There are points in some dungeons where it is actually easier to complete with one person than it is with four, namely 'Mezeluth' in Vet Crypt of Hearts, but for the most part you must accept the fact that the three roles must be fulfilled by someone.

Hope this post is less offensive than the last.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

what if puncturing sweep was 4x as strong, every group is 4 templars and the only thing on their bar is puncturing sweep. perfect. everything dies and we all self heal. sounds fun right?

maybe a single player game on the easiest setting is more your speed; anything goes and you always win.

MyNegation

GW2 is this way >---->

i just arrived from there and it sucks.
you might want to check it out.

Kragorn

MyNegation wrote: »

GW2 is this way >---->

i just arrived from there and it sucks.
you might want to check it out.

@Aetherion86 .. this!

GW2 shows what kind of content you get if you move away from the 'trinity' to a system where everyone is a tank/healer/DPS in one neat package .. and a system where there's no 'taunt' to allow fights to be managed .. everything degenerates into a zerg-fest where the only objective is to kill the boss before it rages and wipes you.

There's a lot to like in GW2, as someone who doesn't really enjoy grouping much it's very enjoyable, however the group side of PVE is pretty dire for those who prefer traditional trinity games.

One problem is group size, the smaller the numbers the easier it is to find enough players, but the downside of course is that in all MMO populations those who want to tank/heal are a minority.

I LOVE tanking in most MMOs but am not a leader, I don't want to have to research fights so I can dictate how it goes, I'm most definitely a 'follower', I'll stand where I'm told, I'll tank what I'm told (and truth be told I'm pretty reasonable at it) .. which all adds up to my avoiding PUGs like the plague as a tank.

Healing I enjoy, but the healing model in this game sucks, there are no spot heals, everything is AoE, some 'smart' heals are actually hugely dumb, etc. There's also no controllable debuff removal and with only 5 skills available there's precious little variability anyway.

Kanar

There was a game called City of Heroes that was a lot of fun. It had the classic MMO archetypes but it also had one called Scrapper. This was a melee class that had decent armor and decent damage. For the first couple years the game was around all teams hated scrappers because they had no role on a team, and scrappers whined on the forums that they had no team role.

However after some time people realized that scrappers were actually really fricken tough. Soon you could get into entire groups filled with scrappers, storming through trials like a feral hurricane. It was a free for all; everyone to keep themselves alive and everyone had to kill. Scrappers could do the hardest team content in the game (hami raids were something else though). Kill or be killed. It was a ton of fun. RIP CoH.

I think something like that would be possible for most group content in this game. There are many skill lines with team support and healing abilities.