Sandbox features should be high priority

DeLindsay

RazielSR wrote: »

I completely agree that this game should have been a sandbox mmo. But you forget that it is not,and it will never be. You are many years late to have some kind of hope. This game was designed as a theme park mmo plus grindfestival all around.

That's interesting because Paul Sage just recently said they are doing what they can to make ESO more of a Sandbox. 1.6 is the sole focus atm, but that doesn't mean it'll NEVER happen. BTW, since you obviously work for ZoS and speak for them personally with insider knowledge of all future plan can I request that you add Appearance Change to the game, kthnxbai

Messy1

Another high priority is . . . THIS GUY!!!

Why have we not seen more of Schick? Just hand over all the games problems to him I guarantee the solutions will be creative and amazing!!!

Wolfsspinne

DeLindsay wrote: »

Wolfsspinne wrote: »

As for sandbox in general...
Sandbox-features are cool. But they usually don't work for MMOs.

Eve Online would disagree with your statement.

As I said "usually".

EVE is one single game.

There is no other of it's kind, at least non that works.

DeLindsay

Wolfsspinne wrote: »

As I said "usually".

EVE is one single game.

There is no other of it's kind, at least non that works.

Which is why I refer back to my original comment:

DeLindsay wrote: »

If ZoS can make ESO a sandbox like Eve Online (without Spaceships obviously) then I'm 100% for it and will support them in their effort to do so.

Wolfsspinne

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Had blizzard chosen to clone UO rather than EQ and the genre would be entirely different and objectively in a much better place right now.

But they didn't.

And I guess Blizzard had their reasons, which maybe connect to the fact that one was more successful than the other...

RazielSR

DeLindsay wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

I completely agree that this game should have been a sandbox mmo. But you forget that it is not,and it will never be. You are many years late to have some kind of hope. This game was designed as a theme park mmo plus grindfestival all around.

That's interesting because Paul Sage just recently said they are doing what they can to make ESO more of a Sandbox. 1.6 is the sole focus atm, but that doesn't mean it'll NEVER happen. BTW, since you obviously work for ZoS and speak for them personally with insider knowledge of all future plan can I request that you add Appearance Change to the game, kthnxbai

Yes its really funny because the same man said the sub based thing was the only way for this mmo and this mmo will never go freemium. Ok,continue dreaming. And no, I dont work for zos but I know a little bit of what Im talking about.

RazielSR

Smepic wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

I completely agree that this game should have been a sandbox mmo. But you forget that it is not,and it will never be. You are many years late to have some kind of hope. This game was designed as a theme park mmo plus grindfestival all around.

From 1.6 freemium on forward, it will be a lot more grindpark.

If you wanna fool yourself with this amazing features you talk about and you will never see,its ok.

First of all, why are you so determined on being negative? If you do not enjoy the game, or see yourself enjoying the game in the future, you are free to leave whenever. The game developers do wish to add various sandbox features to the game, such as player housing.

Im being realist. Im as determined as I was when I said (with others) that the game was going freemium. At the same time we were trolls and the words from that moderator saying the 180 days removal was just because people didnt like that option was the universal truth and I was just being negative...

Oh dude...you will be as negative as Im being in some months. And of course Im free to leave the game,the same freedom I have when giving my opinions based in previous facts. They just say what you wanna hear,and I understand,its normal.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

Wolfsspinne wrote: »

Maybe they should fix the existing features before screwing things up on new ones, too.


As for sandbox in general...
Sandbox-features are cool. But they usually don't work for MMOs.

wut? I just can't even... I literaly can't even...
Have you no idea what the roots of the genre are?

Reality is completely opposite to what you just said. Themepark design usually doesn't work for MMOs but Blizzard could pull it off thanks to a huge amount of resources. Every attempt at cloning that has failed because no other publisher out there could produce enough content. Even WoW is strugling with their choices nowadays.

Had blizzard chosen to clone UO rather than EQ and the genre would be entirely different and objectively in a much better place right now.

Not a chance.

No way would 'modern' gamers tolerate the group-or-die, lose large amounts of XP/gear on death, etc. those games were based on.

Blizzard knew that, that's why WOW was developed as it was and why it became and still is the biggest MMO by orders of magnitude. 10 years later and even after losing 1/2 of their peak numbers, at 6m their subscriber numbers are still over double their nearest rival and for most other MMO publishers like ZOS are numbers that can only be dreamed of.,

You may be one of those that looks down at the kind of people that play WOW, many round here and other MMO forums do, but the fact is that there is no mass demand for the type of games you seem to have loved 15 years ago; EVE is of course a huge exception, it's unique in that respect and likely to remain so.

The last such game that I can recall was FFXI, designed by Square Enix as the FF franchise 'take' on UO/EQ, and while that's still going that only because it's development costs were recovered a decade ago and enough people are happy to pay $8.99 .. I'm one of them .. but to survive SE had to alleviate some of the hardcore features they initially deployed and which aren't acceptable to enough peoplke in 21st Century MMOs to sustain viability.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

A sandbox game doesn't have to be PvP, neither does it have to be group or dies or with xp/gear losses. it's a common misconception to look at UO or EvE and believe that all their feature are needed to create a sandbox.

Sandbox is about creating a virtual world with player interaction driving part of the world. Having goals for guilds to accomplish, choices of activity whether it be crafter, fighter, healer, real estate agent and so on.
Players have to feel they are part of something grand and meaningful.

For that matter, in a sandbox game without artificial limitation like "raids", one could go in a dungeon with 3 or 8 people and just share the loot. People can tailor their own effort vs reward.

Also, content being player driven is a lot more dynamic and sustainable than developer created content. Even Blizzard can't keep up anymore. The gear treadmill is just a trick to artificially inflate game time because otherwise, the devs would be even more losing the race against their players.
PvP is the easiest to implement, but a working economy is the most interesting. In between you have player run cities, housing, player created quests and so on.

I do not condemn people for liking WoW, Blizzard are expert craftsmen and they create perfect products. However, WoW is for all intent and purposes just a gigantic skinner box. I consider it a very sadistic game.
Most players aren't MMO players, it's just that WoW became such a cultural phenomenom that everyone tried it and some got hooked.

The genre is actually quite a niche, and those that are the core audience are getting driven away by the new trends of business model and features like instancing and compartimentalization.

Take the time to read this, I found it by accident by searching for something else:
http://mud.co.uk/richard/The Decline of MMOs.pdf

dodgehopper_ESO

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

http://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/3739342

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2tfb48/welcome_to_the_eso_tamriel_unlimited_aua/?limit=500

Have a nice watch and a nice read.

See I was hoping for a link to the specific answers that were relevant to our discussion, as I can't go through all of that to find it here at work (I always have time for 5 minutes of forums here, and 5 minutes there, but never more than that - and I can't watch videos), and I won't be home for a couple of days...

I understand. You'll just have to trust me until you can watch the video. In the QA part a question was asked about the state of spellcrafting and Gina said "it's not worked on currently".

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2tfb48/welcome_to_the_eso_tamriel_unlimited_aua/cnyi90a
For the PvP aspect of the justice system.

If you do ctrl + f and search for keyword on the initial link I gave, you can find stuff quickly.

But the general idea is that game systems, the category sandbox elements would fall into, are all on hold. Either not worked on, in full reconsideration or simply delayed without ETA.

At best ,we'll get 1.7 at the end of 2015, early 2016. And that's if we're lucky.
Sandbox elements can't be sold on a cash shop, so they are extremly low priority at this point.

If that's true it is really disappointing. Both of those features would add a lot of playtime and entertainment, which is what attracts people to actually be in game. They really need to focus on PvP-Justice as well as Spellcrafting as far as I'm concerned. The former adds all kinds of new levels of entertainment, and the latter will give people a lot of options to customize and grow their characters, as well as help balance classes and the game. Additionally spellcrafting has the potentiality to add quite a lot of playtime to the game, and that helps them. I really can't see how these two items would not be a priority for them.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

<interesting points>

Okay, my preconceptions certainly are based on UO/EVE as those are the only two examples I'm aware of, I'm willing to learn.

I'll to read that article .. I'm old enough to have played MUD when it was new and novel, though I didn't play for long and remember very little of its detail.

Gidorick

RazielSR wrote: »

If you wanna fool yourself with this amazing features you talk about and you will never see,its ok.

This describes me PERFECTLY. I can't help but dream about the possibilities!

UrQuan

A little off topic, but @fromtesonlineb16_ESO and @frosth.darkomenb16_ESO your names are too similar - it makes trying to sort out a back-and-forth between you confusing

Dave2836

Here's an idea based off an existing feature that would open up the sandbox.

How about every time someone completes a crafting writ, that corresponding faction in cyrodil gets a boost to health for provisioning, magicka for enchanting, stamina for enchanting, or excess npc guards for their respective towers for any of the equipment writs like mages for clothier, guardians for blacksmithing, or archers for woodworking.

We don't see a lot of the results if any if our actions that affect the world or other players, but this might be the gateway the game needs to introduce sandbox elements and how players can indirectly effect one another.

Ideas thoughts amendments?

Humanistic

rawne1980b16_ESO wrote: »

Humanistic wrote: »

There is a big trend right now with sandbox games on Steam. H1Z1 has actually been gaining A LOT of buzz because you can go out, scavenge, and make things yourself, and actually build your world. The zombie threat is always looming, however - great struggle there.

When people aren't getting handed gear all the time and they have to find resources to make their own stuff, then those items have a lot more meaning to them than something they just got handed on a silver platter.

Entirely different kind of game.

Aye, just like every single first person shooter is an "entirely different game". But they are still first person shooters. If you're hypothetically talking about ESO being a sandbox game, then yes it would fall under the "SAND-BOX" game category, which is what that game is.

Nyghthowler wrote: »

Humanistic wrote: »

There is a big trend right now with sandbox games on Steam. H1Z1 has actually been gaining A LOT of buzz because you can go out, scavenge, and make things yourself, and actually build your world. The zombie threat is always looming, however - great struggle there.

When people aren't getting handed gear all the time and they have to find resources to make their own stuff, then those items have a lot more meaning to them than something they just got handed on a silver platter.

Or you can spend RL money and buy a air drop supply crate with various items and weapons. Yeah, that's sandbox alright...

If you want to get SUPER technical about it - buying potions/soul gems, and other "convenience" items are small form of buy-to-win. Not doing that (such as going back to town) takes more time, which pushes your next level further away, which ultimately amounts to time you could have spent leveling. Either way you spin it, potions/soul gems and other "convenience" items are a small form of buy-to-win, because you're using them to PROGRESS. You're not using them to "look at", like armor set costumes. It's minimal at best, but apples are apples, doesn't matter what your perception is.

Avatar1109

Yeah I have to agree, you need to be able to explore everywhere. I really hope that they give us to options the wander the entire map, yes that would include other factions territory. Maybe you would be treated like a high level vampire by other factions NPCs, ie kill on sight.

Kalman

I don't know. I don't like sand very much. It gets in my pants and makes my balls itch.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Firellight wrote: »

I don't read game journalism much, but I gave Ryan Getchell's article a read.
mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/821/feature/9345

I agree with his concerns. Spending months waiting for 5 hours worth of content is not worth the time and money, and people are going to quickly get bored of the game once accomplishing goals and beating content. Imo, ZOS should make it one of their highest priorities to implement features that allow us to generate our own experiences. The Elder Scrolls community has so many modders and fanfiction writers that an MMO cannot waste the opportunity for an online Elder Scrolls sandbox - and you bet the console players will be looking for these quality experiences.

Such features may include:
- Player influence on faction war, including unaffiliated character options and forming factions through guilds (it's 2E 582, new factions wouldn't hurt the lore much, especially RP factions).
- Player influence on in-game politics (Justice system).
- Housing (fields are empty, anyway).
- Visual enhancement add-on capabilities, such as texture packs and lighting.
- Ability to create quests (instances?), with successful creators being able to create open-world quests.
- Ability to create resource packs, such as new object models, etc. This could be an in-game feature for auto updates.
- Costume modelling capabilities.
Please add to this list if you have any suggestions of your own, or perhaps suggest edits and details to existing listings.

The point is to generate a dynamic MMO experience, because if ZOS is looking for long term stays, ESO must be a liveable environment. Clearly, if ZOS is having issues with development progress, then the players have to be able to ease the development time, possibly making ESO the best MMORPG in the AAA industry.

The problem with this is that ZOS has shown that they completely lack any imagination are not willing to take risks. Look at what they gave us already. ZOS seems to think that the only thing that makes a TES game is the lore, monsters and location. None of that matters though if it takes away the core mechanics of how TES games work. Sure they have evolved and made slight changes over time usually stream lining in the process, but they have all been relatively consistent. All ZOS did was make another MMO (DAOC) with some superficial TES elements.

What ESO is lacking more than anything is choice. Most of the game is themepark, which means you are stuck doing the content that's appropriate for your level, unless you enjoy wasting time for absolutely no reward. There is no reason for me to go do quests in Skyrim because I'm V14 and the rewards would be pointless and the quests just aren't that fun anyway. I hate that I have to redo 3 factions worth of main story again just so that I can collect the skyshards. I hate that I am limited in what spells I can use just because I like playing a character that can actually cast invisibility or that I can only use spells if I have the right staff equipped(?).

I don't think that the spellcrafting system is going to fix this stuff. So far the justice system has been really disappointing, it's just a watered down version of single player system with invincible guards. People are eating is up though because they included clothing that you can wear(?). Some people really are easy to please. It would be nice if we could at least create our own class like you could in Oblivion, or better yet get rid of classes entirely like Skryim.

Why can't we use all the schools of magic? Why do we need a staff to cast those spells? Why are the guards invincible? Why can't I summon daedra and also cast invisibility? Why does it cost stamina to sneak?? How can you block an arrow with a staff? I would really love for them to explain some these decisions.

eventide03b14a_ESO

RazielSR wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

I completely agree that this game should have been a sandbox mmo. But you forget that it is not,and it will never be. You are many years late to have some kind of hope. This game was designed as a theme park mmo plus grindfestival all around.

From 1.6 freemium on forward, it will be a lot more grindpark.

If you wanna fool yourself with this amazing features you talk about and you will never see,its ok.

First of all, why are you so determined on being negative? If you do not enjoy the game, or see yourself enjoying the game in the future, you are free to leave whenever. The game developers do wish to add various sandbox features to the game, such as player housing.

Im being realist. Im as determined as I was when I said (with others) that the game was going freemium. At the same time we were trolls and the words from that moderator saying the 180 days removal was just because people didnt like that option was the universal truth and I was just being negative...

Oh dude...you will be as negative as Im being in some months. And of course Im free to leave the game,the same freedom I have when giving my opinions based in previous facts. They just say what you wanna hear,and I understand,its normal.

Why shouldn't we be angry that a franchise we grew up with has been ruined along with any chance of a decent MMO based on it? Yes we are passionate about this game because it's our game not Matt Firor's.

Tapio75

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO wrote: »

A sandbox game doesn't have to be PvP, neither does it have to be group or dies or with xp/gear losses. it's a common misconception to look at UO or EvE and believe that all their feature are needed to create a sandbox.

Sadly even more common misconception is that when making MMO, it has to follow exact same rules and mechanics as every other MMO. Simply because of these three letters MMO and people always forget to add RPG behind them.

Essentially MMORPG is a game where massive number of players can do various activities together and have a role in the game which not being DPS, TANK or HEALER ^^

Kharnis

RazielSR wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

I completely agree that this game should have been a sandbox mmo. But you forget that it is not,and it will never be. You are many years late to have some kind of hope. This game was designed as a theme park mmo plus grindfestival all around.

That's interesting because Paul Sage just recently said they are doing what they can to make ESO more of a Sandbox. 1.6 is the sole focus atm, but that doesn't mean it'll NEVER happen. BTW, since you obviously work for ZoS and speak for them personally with insider knowledge of all future plan can I request that you add Appearance Change to the game, kthnxbai

Yes its really funny because the same man said the sub based thing was the only way for this mmo and this mmo will never go freemium. Ok,continue dreaming. And no, I dont work for zos but I know a little bit of what Im talking about.

Yeah...um... Paul Sage never said anything about how the game will "never go freemium." Why do people keep mis-attributing a quote by Naoki Yoshida to Paul Sage, a quote which itself is something that Yoshida never actually said?

RazielSR

A quick reminder http://gamingbolt.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview-business-model-is-what-the-business-model-is

eventide03b14a_ESO

Kharnis wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

I completely agree that this game should have been a sandbox mmo. But you forget that it is not,and it will never be. You are many years late to have some kind of hope. This game was designed as a theme park mmo plus grindfestival all around.

That's interesting because Paul Sage just recently said they are doing what they can to make ESO more of a Sandbox. 1.6 is the sole focus atm, but that doesn't mean it'll NEVER happen. BTW, since you obviously work for ZoS and speak for them personally with insider knowledge of all future plan can I request that you add Appearance Change to the game, kthnxbai

Yes its really funny because the same man said the sub based thing was the only way for this mmo and this mmo will never go freemium. Ok,continue dreaming. And no, I dont work for zos but I know a little bit of what Im talking about.

Yeah...um... Paul Sage never said anything about how the game will "never go freemium." Why do people keep mis-attributing a quote by Naoki Yoshida to Paul Sage, a quote which itself is something that Yoshida never actually said?

We were told before launch by multiple sources including Mr. Sage that it was going to be subscription based. Period.

Gamereactor: TESO was originally rumored to be a free-to-play title. Now that it has been announced that the game will be subscription-based, do you feel confident that it can compete with the many free-to-play games on the market, especially on next gen consoles?

Paul Sage: Not to sound flippant, but I think people play, and are drawn, to quality games. I'm not saying that free-to-play games aren't quality games, what I mean more to say is that our commitment to our game has a lot of value, for the money that people are going to spend. I also think that, when people see the updates we have coming post-launch, and when they see our commitment to providing that quality service and content, people will see that they are getting a lot of value for the dollar they are spending.

http://www.gamereactor.eu/articles/101784/The+Elder+Scrolls+Online:+Creative+Director+Interview/

There's another article regarding Matt Firor:

Despite the slew of subscription MMOs shifting to the free-to-play business model, The Elder Scrolls Online will demand a monthly fee, it was revealed earlier today. Where once such a practice wouldn't have raised a single eyebrow, it's a bit trickier to justify in the face of countless free titles.

That's exactly what we got Matt Firor, The Elder Scrolls Online director, to do when we caught up with him at Gamescom. His response? "The reason why we don’t need F2P is we have a huge IP behind this. We’re not that worried about getting people in the door." Bold words, but will they come back to haunt him?

http://www.pcgamesn.com/elderscrolls/matt-firor-justifies-elder-scrolls-subscriptions-we-re-not-worried-about-getting-people-door

They did tell us it was not going F2P, freemium, B2P, P2W, or whatever term you wish to call it. They said it was going to be sub based and that was it. That's the great thing about the internet, these articles will be there forever and $120.00 per account in sub fees later we find out they went back on their word.

RazielSR

Thanks for this, eventide, I didn't have the time XD

As usual, more than clear. Of course, some people dont want to see it, but well...completely f2p fall this year and p2w items too (free level 50 chars while buying dlcs too).

Kharnis

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Kharnis wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

I completely agree that this game should have been a sandbox mmo. But you forget that it is not,and it will never be. You are many years late to have some kind of hope. This game was designed as a theme park mmo plus grindfestival all around.

That's interesting because Paul Sage just recently said they are doing what they can to make ESO more of a Sandbox. 1.6 is the sole focus atm, but that doesn't mean it'll NEVER happen. BTW, since you obviously work for ZoS and speak for them personally with insider knowledge of all future plan can I request that you add Appearance Change to the game, kthnxbai

Yes its really funny because the same man said the sub based thing was the only way for this mmo and this mmo will never go freemium. Ok,continue dreaming. And no, I dont work for zos but I know a little bit of what Im talking about.

Yeah...um... Paul Sage never said anything about how the game will "never go freemium." Why do people keep mis-attributing a quote by Naoki Yoshida to Paul Sage, a quote which itself is something that Yoshida never actually said?

We were told before launch by multiple sources including Mr. Sage that it was going to be subscription based. Period.

Gamereactor: TESO was originally rumored to be a free-to-play title. Now that it has been announced that the game will be subscription-based, do you feel confident that it can compete with the many free-to-play games on the market, especially on next gen consoles?

Paul Sage: Not to sound flippant, but I think people play, and are drawn, to quality games. I'm not saying that free-to-play games aren't quality games, what I mean more to say is that our commitment to our game has a lot of value, for the money that people are going to spend. I also think that, when people see the updates we have coming post-launch, and when they see our commitment to providing that quality service and content, people will see that they are getting a lot of value for the dollar they are spending.

http://www.gamereactor.eu/articles/101784/The+Elder+Scrolls+Online:+Creative+Director+Interview/

There's another article regarding Matt Firor:

Despite the slew of subscription MMOs shifting to the free-to-play business model, The Elder Scrolls Online will demand a monthly fee, it was revealed earlier today. Where once such a practice wouldn't have raised a single eyebrow, it's a bit trickier to justify in the face of countless free titles.

That's exactly what we got Matt Firor, The Elder Scrolls Online director, to do when we caught up with him at Gamescom. His response? "The reason why we don’t need F2P is we have a huge IP behind this. We’re not that worried about getting people in the door." Bold words, but will they come back to haunt him?

http://www.pcgamesn.com/elderscrolls/matt-firor-justifies-elder-scrolls-subscriptions-we-re-not-worried-about-getting-people-door

They did tell us it was not going F2P, freemium, B2P, P2W, or whatever term you wish to call it. They said it was going to be sub based and that was it. That's the great thing about the internet, these articles will be there forever and $120.00 per account in sub fees later we find out they went back on their word.

Interesting. You actually quote him, and you still fail to see he never said anything about never going "freemium." Or f2p. Or b2p. Or whatever. Instead, he explained why the game was a subscription model, something that they had planned on being even recently (as evidenced by the fact that, as of December, their FAQ still mentioned that a subscription was needed to play the game, for both the PC/Mac and for the PS4 when released). But, even if he had said the game would "never go freemium," I have good news for you: the game isn't going freemium. You can relax now.

But even more, though, is the fact that Paul Sage has never, ever, even once, said anything about "shutting the game down rather than going f2p." That is something Naoki Yoshida is reported to have said. And he never said that either.

RazielSR

Kharnis wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Kharnis wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

I completely agree that this game should have been a sandbox mmo. But you forget that it is not,and it will never be. You are many years late to have some kind of hope. This game was designed as a theme park mmo plus grindfestival all around.

That's interesting because Paul Sage just recently said they are doing what they can to make ESO more of a Sandbox. 1.6 is the sole focus atm, but that doesn't mean it'll NEVER happen. BTW, since you obviously work for ZoS and speak for them personally with insider knowledge of all future plan can I request that you add Appearance Change to the game, kthnxbai

Yes its really funny because the same man said the sub based thing was the only way for this mmo and this mmo will never go freemium. Ok,continue dreaming. And no, I dont work for zos but I know a little bit of what Im talking about.

Yeah...um... Paul Sage never said anything about how the game will "never go freemium." Why do people keep mis-attributing a quote by Naoki Yoshida to Paul Sage, a quote which itself is something that Yoshida never actually said?

We were told before launch by multiple sources including Mr. Sage that it was going to be subscription based. Period.

Gamereactor: TESO was originally rumored to be a free-to-play title. Now that it has been announced that the game will be subscription-based, do you feel confident that it can compete with the many free-to-play games on the market, especially on next gen consoles?

Paul Sage: Not to sound flippant, but I think people play, and are drawn, to quality games. I'm not saying that free-to-play games aren't quality games, what I mean more to say is that our commitment to our game has a lot of value, for the money that people are going to spend. I also think that, when people see the updates we have coming post-launch, and when they see our commitment to providing that quality service and content, people will see that they are getting a lot of value for the dollar they are spending.

http://www.gamereactor.eu/articles/101784/The+Elder+Scrolls+Online:+Creative+Director+Interview/

There's another article regarding Matt Firor:

Despite the slew of subscription MMOs shifting to the free-to-play business model, The Elder Scrolls Online will demand a monthly fee, it was revealed earlier today. Where once such a practice wouldn't have raised a single eyebrow, it's a bit trickier to justify in the face of countless free titles.

That's exactly what we got Matt Firor, The Elder Scrolls Online director, to do when we caught up with him at Gamescom. His response? "The reason why we don’t need F2P is we have a huge IP behind this. We’re not that worried about getting people in the door." Bold words, but will they come back to haunt him?

http://www.pcgamesn.com/elderscrolls/matt-firor-justifies-elder-scrolls-subscriptions-we-re-not-worried-about-getting-people-door

They did tell us it was not going F2P, freemium, B2P, P2W, or whatever term you wish to call it. They said it was going to be sub based and that was it. That's the great thing about the internet, these articles will be there forever and $120.00 per account in sub fees later we find out they went back on their word.

Interesting. You actually quote him, and you still fail to see he never said anything about never going "freemium." Or f2p. Or b2p. Or whatever. Instead, he explained why the game was a subscription model, something that they had planned on being even recently (as evidenced by the fact that, as of December, their FAQ still mentioned that a subscription was needed to play the game, for both the PC/Mac and for the PS4 when released). But, even if he had said the game would "never go freemium," I have good news for you: the game isn't going freemium. You can relax now.

But even more, though, is the fact that Paul Sage has never, ever, even once, said anything about "shutting the game down rather than going f2p." That is something Naoki Yoshida is reported to have said. And he never said that either.

Seriously...cant be real.

Kharnis

RazielSR wrote: »

Kharnis wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Kharnis wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

I completely agree that this game should have been a sandbox mmo. But you forget that it is not,and it will never be. You are many years late to have some kind of hope. This game was designed as a theme park mmo plus grindfestival all around.

That's interesting because Paul Sage just recently said they are doing what they can to make ESO more of a Sandbox. 1.6 is the sole focus atm, but that doesn't mean it'll NEVER happen. BTW, since you obviously work for ZoS and speak for them personally with insider knowledge of all future plan can I request that you add Appearance Change to the game, kthnxbai

Yes its really funny because the same man said the sub based thing was the only way for this mmo and this mmo will never go freemium. Ok,continue dreaming. And no, I dont work for zos but I know a little bit of what Im talking about.

Yeah...um... Paul Sage never said anything about how the game will "never go freemium." Why do people keep mis-attributing a quote by Naoki Yoshida to Paul Sage, a quote which itself is something that Yoshida never actually said?

We were told before launch by multiple sources including Mr. Sage that it was going to be subscription based. Period.

Gamereactor: TESO was originally rumored to be a free-to-play title. Now that it has been announced that the game will be subscription-based, do you feel confident that it can compete with the many free-to-play games on the market, especially on next gen consoles?

Paul Sage: Not to sound flippant, but I think people play, and are drawn, to quality games. I'm not saying that free-to-play games aren't quality games, what I mean more to say is that our commitment to our game has a lot of value, for the money that people are going to spend. I also think that, when people see the updates we have coming post-launch, and when they see our commitment to providing that quality service and content, people will see that they are getting a lot of value for the dollar they are spending.

http://www.gamereactor.eu/articles/101784/The+Elder+Scrolls+Online:+Creative+Director+Interview/

There's another article regarding Matt Firor:

Despite the slew of subscription MMOs shifting to the free-to-play business model, The Elder Scrolls Online will demand a monthly fee, it was revealed earlier today. Where once such a practice wouldn't have raised a single eyebrow, it's a bit trickier to justify in the face of countless free titles.

That's exactly what we got Matt Firor, The Elder Scrolls Online director, to do when we caught up with him at Gamescom. His response? "The reason why we don’t need F2P is we have a huge IP behind this. We’re not that worried about getting people in the door." Bold words, but will they come back to haunt him?

http://www.pcgamesn.com/elderscrolls/matt-firor-justifies-elder-scrolls-subscriptions-we-re-not-worried-about-getting-people-door

They did tell us it was not going F2P, freemium, B2P, P2W, or whatever term you wish to call it. They said it was going to be sub based and that was it. That's the great thing about the internet, these articles will be there forever and $120.00 per account in sub fees later we find out they went back on their word.

Interesting. You actually quote him, and you still fail to see he never said anything about never going "freemium." Or f2p. Or b2p. Or whatever. Instead, he explained why the game was a subscription model, something that they had planned on being even recently (as evidenced by the fact that, as of December, their FAQ still mentioned that a subscription was needed to play the game, for both the PC/Mac and for the PS4 when released). But, even if he had said the game would "never go freemium," I have good news for you: the game isn't going freemium. You can relax now.

But even more, though, is the fact that Paul Sage has never, ever, even once, said anything about "shutting the game down rather than going f2p." That is something Naoki Yoshida is reported to have said. And he never said that either.

Seriously...cant be real.

Very well, then. Show me, with the exact quote, where he said the game would "never go freemium." Show me how the game has, in fact, gone freemium. I am eagerly looking forward to seeing how much you need to twist the planned model in order to meet the definition of "freemium." I suspect it'll just be the watering down of freemium so that it matches a b2p model, though.

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

Kharnis wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

Kharnis wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Kharnis wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

I completely agree that this game should have been a sandbox mmo. But you forget that it is not,and it will never be. You are many years late to have some kind of hope. This game was designed as a theme park mmo plus grindfestival all around.

That's interesting because Paul Sage just recently said they are doing what they can to make ESO more of a Sandbox. 1.6 is the sole focus atm, but that doesn't mean it'll NEVER happen. BTW, since you obviously work for ZoS and speak for them personally with insider knowledge of all future plan can I request that you add Appearance Change to the game, kthnxbai

Yes its really funny because the same man said the sub based thing was the only way for this mmo and this mmo will never go freemium. Ok,continue dreaming. And no, I dont work for zos but I know a little bit of what Im talking about.

Yeah...um... Paul Sage never said anything about how the game will "never go freemium." Why do people keep mis-attributing a quote by Naoki Yoshida to Paul Sage, a quote which itself is something that Yoshida never actually said?

We were told before launch by multiple sources including Mr. Sage that it was going to be subscription based. Period.

Gamereactor: TESO was originally rumored to be a free-to-play title. Now that it has been announced that the game will be subscription-based, do you feel confident that it can compete with the many free-to-play games on the market, especially on next gen consoles?

Paul Sage: Not to sound flippant, but I think people play, and are drawn, to quality games. I'm not saying that free-to-play games aren't quality games, what I mean more to say is that our commitment to our game has a lot of value, for the money that people are going to spend. I also think that, when people see the updates we have coming post-launch, and when they see our commitment to providing that quality service and content, people will see that they are getting a lot of value for the dollar they are spending.

http://www.gamereactor.eu/articles/101784/The+Elder+Scrolls+Online:+Creative+Director+Interview/

There's another article regarding Matt Firor:

Despite the slew of subscription MMOs shifting to the free-to-play business model, The Elder Scrolls Online will demand a monthly fee, it was revealed earlier today. Where once such a practice wouldn't have raised a single eyebrow, it's a bit trickier to justify in the face of countless free titles.

That's exactly what we got Matt Firor, The Elder Scrolls Online director, to do when we caught up with him at Gamescom. His response? "The reason why we don’t need F2P is we have a huge IP behind this. We’re not that worried about getting people in the door." Bold words, but will they come back to haunt him?

http://www.pcgamesn.com/elderscrolls/matt-firor-justifies-elder-scrolls-subscriptions-we-re-not-worried-about-getting-people-door

They did tell us it was not going F2P, freemium, B2P, P2W, or whatever term you wish to call it. They said it was going to be sub based and that was it. That's the great thing about the internet, these articles will be there forever and $120.00 per account in sub fees later we find out they went back on their word.

Interesting. You actually quote him, and you still fail to see he never said anything about never going "freemium." Or f2p. Or b2p. Or whatever. Instead, he explained why the game was a subscription model, something that they had planned on being even recently (as evidenced by the fact that, as of December, their FAQ still mentioned that a subscription was needed to play the game, for both the PC/Mac and for the PS4 when released). But, even if he had said the game would "never go freemium," I have good news for you: the game isn't going freemium. You can relax now.

But even more, though, is the fact that Paul Sage has never, ever, even once, said anything about "shutting the game down rather than going f2p." That is something Naoki Yoshida is reported to have said. And he never said that either.

Seriously...cant be real.

Very well, then. Show me, with the exact quote, where he said the game would "never go freemium." Show me how the game has, in fact, gone freemium. I am eagerly looking forward to seeing how much you need to twist the planned model in order to meet the definition of "freemium." I suspect it'll just be the watering down of freemium so that it matches a b2p model, though.

When developpers pre launch aggressively bash a cash shop model when defending their choice of subscription model, then it counts as advertisement and selling the concept that their game would be without a cash shop.
Changing models to one that incorporates the feature they themselves said required "sacrifices" is not only bait and switch but false advertizing.

You don't need to state things directly, there is a concept called "implying".
If I ever were to come and pick up your daughter for a date, would you understand "I will treat her with respect." as the promise that it is? Or will I have to state specificaly "i promise I won't *** her." ?

And for the hundredth time: f2p and b2p are just variants of the same thing.
They both rely on a cash shop to generate the bulk of their revenue, they both have to be managed the same way and they both have the same flaws and constraints. The b2p model just has a bonus box sale income but is a temporary state until full f2p switch once everyone willing to pay for a game has paid. Then the next "wave" of users gets targeted.

If you believe there is any big difference between b2p and f2p, then you are more naive than those that believed ESO's advertisement.

RazielSR

Kharnis wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

Kharnis wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Kharnis wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

I completely agree that this game should have been a sandbox mmo. But you forget that it is not,and it will never be. You are many years late to have some kind of hope. This game was designed as a theme park mmo plus grindfestival all around.

That's interesting because Paul Sage just recently said they are doing what they can to make ESO more of a Sandbox. 1.6 is the sole focus atm, but that doesn't mean it'll NEVER happen. BTW, since you obviously work for ZoS and speak for them personally with insider knowledge of all future plan can I request that you add Appearance Change to the game, kthnxbai

Yes its really funny because the same man said the sub based thing was the only way for this mmo and this mmo will never go freemium. Ok,continue dreaming. And no, I dont work for zos but I know a little bit of what Im talking about.

Yeah...um... Paul Sage never said anything about how the game will "never go freemium." Why do people keep mis-attributing a quote by Naoki Yoshida to Paul Sage, a quote which itself is something that Yoshida never actually said?

We were told before launch by multiple sources including Mr. Sage that it was going to be subscription based. Period.

Gamereactor: TESO was originally rumored to be a free-to-play title. Now that it has been announced that the game will be subscription-based, do you feel confident that it can compete with the many free-to-play games on the market, especially on next gen consoles?

Paul Sage: Not to sound flippant, but I think people play, and are drawn, to quality games. I'm not saying that free-to-play games aren't quality games, what I mean more to say is that our commitment to our game has a lot of value, for the money that people are going to spend. I also think that, when people see the updates we have coming post-launch, and when they see our commitment to providing that quality service and content, people will see that they are getting a lot of value for the dollar they are spending.

http://www.gamereactor.eu/articles/101784/The+Elder+Scrolls+Online:+Creative+Director+Interview/

There's another article regarding Matt Firor:

Despite the slew of subscription MMOs shifting to the free-to-play business model, The Elder Scrolls Online will demand a monthly fee, it was revealed earlier today. Where once such a practice wouldn't have raised a single eyebrow, it's a bit trickier to justify in the face of countless free titles.

That's exactly what we got Matt Firor, The Elder Scrolls Online director, to do when we caught up with him at Gamescom. His response? "The reason why we don’t need F2P is we have a huge IP behind this. We’re not that worried about getting people in the door." Bold words, but will they come back to haunt him?

http://www.pcgamesn.com/elderscrolls/matt-firor-justifies-elder-scrolls-subscriptions-we-re-not-worried-about-getting-people-door

They did tell us it was not going F2P, freemium, B2P, P2W, or whatever term you wish to call it. They said it was going to be sub based and that was it. That's the great thing about the internet, these articles will be there forever and $120.00 per account in sub fees later we find out they went back on their word.

Interesting. You actually quote him, and you still fail to see he never said anything about never going "freemium." Or f2p. Or b2p. Or whatever. Instead, he explained why the game was a subscription model, something that they had planned on being even recently (as evidenced by the fact that, as of December, their FAQ still mentioned that a subscription was needed to play the game, for both the PC/Mac and for the PS4 when released). But, even if he had said the game would "never go freemium," I have good news for you: the game isn't going freemium. You can relax now.

But even more, though, is the fact that Paul Sage has never, ever, even once, said anything about "shutting the game down rather than going f2p." That is something Naoki Yoshida is reported to have said. And he never said that either.

Seriously...cant be real.

Very well, then. Show me, with the exact quote, where he said the game would "never go freemium." Show me how the game has, in fact, gone freemium. I am eagerly looking forward to seeing how much you need to twist the planned model in order to meet the definition of "freemium." I suspect it'll just be the watering down of freemium so that it matches a b2p model, though.

Sorry, whatever problem you may have, I really cant help with it.
This nonsense conversation leads nowhere. I guess you would see 400 people pointing a finger at you and you would want everybody to say "we are pointing a finger at you",if not,you would be happy thinking they were pointing at the small fly 100 meters behind you.

Kharnis

As suspected, the only way the game can be considered "freemium" by those who need to feel personally betrayed is by twisting the definition of freemium so that it applies to a b2p model. As also suspected, no actual quote can be attributed to anyone at Zenimax about "never going" freemium or b2p. The best they can do is make some comment about how they "hyped up" the subscription model prior to launch (which somehow constitutes a promise to never change the way they do business), and then make comments about how I clearly refuse to accept "reality."

Thanks for playing, guys. You may now continue to feel as though you have won a victory.

The switch to b2p is disappointing. TESO and Wildstar were the last hopes we had of the sub model remaining viable, and with the utter collapse of Wildstar, all we had left was TESO. Now, the odds of another MMO launching anytime in the future with a sub model are pretty much zero, and the odds of TESO maintaining any kind of content update on a relatively frequent basis have been drastically reduced. But no where, at any time, did anyone ever say this would "never" happen, and no amount of shifting goalposts or twisting words or attributing false quotes by someone else will change that reality.