Champion System Reality [Lack of Content]

Humanistic

The only way to get CP right now, on the PTS any way - is to basically grind mobs, and a few quests here and there.

The best way that I have found is running daily quests in Cyrodil, which I'm sure a multitude of people will have issues with - considering it yields the most CPXP. In a way it promotes PvP, but not everyone wants to do that. You can also do your daily dungeons and complete a couple quests. Besides that, just running them anyway, including Trials, doesn't give you much.

The issue is we've already been doing this. I suppose one could always just level another alt with the CP bonuses, that might be fun or whatever. But more or less, prepare to do the same content, for a while. I think most of us can count on not getting any more content beyond what 1.6 has to offer until probably 4th quarter 2015.

They say CP isn't supposed to be a grind, but it's more or less set up to be. Naturally, if any player sees it's "possible" to get a point every couple hours, then they're going to try and get one - most of the time.

How do you guys feel about this?

Shadesofkin

I have one character who still has all of Silver and Gold to do, as well as all of Craglorn. My other characters are either too low a level or have completed it all. I'd kill for a zone that provided fresh quests and plenty of mobs so that I didn't have to use the cyrodil option or the grind option. Thankfully that one character will earn it for everyone, but still...it'd be nice if I could log-on to my main character for something other than doing pledge runs.

Aett_Thorn

I'm honestly wondering if they should have removed the Justice System from 1.6, and focused more on getting us new content instead. I feel like this would have gone a decent ways to alleviating some of the issues brought up in the OP. It would have allowed for people who have done everything currently to have something new to do, while leaving the Justice System to come out once it was complete (including the PvP aspect of it).

AshySamurai

Actually, you have a lot of repeatable content: daily undaunted pledges, trials/dsa and all side quests in Craglorn.

Shadesofkin

I didn't try pledges as a method of gaining CP and I always forget Crag quests are repeatable.

olsborg

I wish they let spellscar be, and maybe even introduce more zones like it, some people like to challenge themself through combat alone, "how big a pull can I actually pull off" (yes I read it)

Questing to me, is fun, but only to a certain extent. Grinding however, is more fun and challenging and intense for me. I like that more. The fact that zos is actively trying to eliminate my favourite gameplaymethod is disheartening.

RazielSR

The game is not for us anymore. It is for console players. The game is done,but its ok if you have hopes. And I understand that you like the game and dont want it to be what is gonna be. In fact I lost a lot of time fooling myself since beta days. But you have to be blind to not see that the game now is just made for console players,to sell boxes and let them make the same.content you already did faking it all with cp.Thats all.

AssaultLemming

Best thing to do for now would be to make it so stealing items gives xp, then the justice system would generate champ points.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

AshySamurai wrote: »

Actually, you have a lot of repeatable content: daily undaunted pledges, trials/dsa and all side quests in Craglorn.

Welcome to a 1990s group-or-die MMO, the kind which should have died a death years ago.

Providing optional group content is fine, making gorup-or-die the only way to progress past level cap is simply going to lead to failure.

Nazon_Katts

Ah, well. If you can play in wee hours, you're better off solo, still. XP in the vet zones is still high enough for an effective grind. Unless there's too many people around, of course.

And why would you want to group anyways? There's less of a reward in it than now, since set bonuses got moved to CS. Other than seeing the story, I don't see much of an incentive.

Wolfsspinne

To summarize all I've read about the the best ways to get CP:
- you have to play an alt
- you have to grind mobs solo or in a two player group
- you have to do goup contend in Craglorn and in vet-dungeons
- you have to do repeatables in Cyrodiil, which leads to PvP

That is pretty much all fricking contend the game has to offer.

Nazon_Katts

You forgot to mention to grind said Alts to 50 first, before starting any content. Don't want to waste any CP from scaled content.

Wolfsspinne

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

You forgot to mention to grind said Alts to 50 first, before starting any content. Don't want to waste any CP from scaled content.

Overworld and open dungeon stuff doesn't scale.
There's no use in leaving out quests that reward less XP than a single VR10 mob.

But you might want to wait with the guild and main quests, those scale.

DeLindsay

Humanistic wrote: »

The only way to get CP right now, on the PTS any way - is to basically grind mobs, and a few quests here and there.

Not to nitpick but this is completely inaccurate. I gained 2-1/2 CP while NA had access to PTS while doing NOTHING but working on the Legerdemain skill line. Every single Safebox you lockpick gives 915 XP, as well as all open world Chests in VR4+ Zones (if you are VR14). ANY XP gain on ANY VR character levels the next CP, not just "grinding mobs and a few quests here and there". Granted if you want FAST CP, then yes, Grinding is still going to be the best due to how fast you gain even the trivial XP that killing a single enemy gives you.

We all knew this before 1.6 even hit PTS, that Grinding would be king of fast CP. In pretty much any MMO, Grinding is almost always the fastest way to gain XP, which is why Players do it, certainly not because of how much they just love killing the same group of enemies over and over again.

Garwulf

AshySamurai wrote: »

Actually, you have a lot of repeatable content: daily undaunted pledges, trials/dsa and all side quests in Craglorn.

Or you could just bang your head against a brick wall until you are unconscious and 'dream' ESO was a decent game after Molag Bal.
All the things you have quoted are exactly the things I hate about ESO. Would just rather go and grind a mob. Just as exciting. The only good thing about the changes is I now do not have to pay to play PVP,unless I want to wear a wedding dress available from the CLOWN (sic) shop .... Wearing one being a sure sign that you are about to have a screwdriver used on you.

Nazon_Katts

Wolfsspinne wrote: »

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

You forgot to mention to grind said Alts to 50 first, before starting any content. Don't want to waste any CP from scaled content.

Overworld and open dungeon stuff doesn't scale.
There's no use in leaving out quests that reward less XP than a single VR10 mob.

But you might want to wait with the guild and main quests, those scale.

Gotta try tonight how this plays out, but low level quests actually did award not all too bad skill xp even when hopelessly overleveled and this might be the case with CP XP as well and with enlightenment could make this worthwhile.

Even if not, SP quests are ground fast and easy at VR1 and you should be seeing normal xp gains in the last zone and Cold Harbour and that would be wasted CP if done at level.

Well, or you could just continue grinding, but at least so you've got a few more options.

andrantos

I have always recognized ESO has having some really solid, great intentions but otherwise plagued by poor implementation/design.

I had hoped the end-game would essentially be a "play your way" while progressing in relevant ways. The problem with VR was that the most efficient way of progressing was neither fun nor engaging (questing and grinding). Instead, what should have happened, was all that end-game content (dungeons, adventure areas, pvp, etc...) should have provided solid ways of leveling VR - which didn't happen.

Top it all off with the fact that VR was itemized with its own set of tiers and gear for each VR. So it was the worst kind of end-game progression.

I like the concept of the CP system. I don't mind what I've seen of it thus far. Some form of vertical progression will be needed. If balanced well (and that is the trick) - then it can only be a good thing.

Instead of having an extra "15" levels serving as our end-game progression, we now have some form of alternate advancement. I don't believe they can itemize against the CP system - so ALL level 50 players will be on even playing field in regards to gear options. This point will make the biggest difference I think.

The other part, if each form of end-game content (dungeons, adventure areas, pvp, etc..) makes for relevant CP gains - then most players will be happy. If CP gains heavily favor one form of content over another - then we will have problems.

The problem isn't the fact that CP are a form of vertical progression - its whether or not the diminishing returns on the benefits and end-game content can be balanced such that the end-game as a whole is able to go forward in a healthy state. The end-game as it is in production simply isn't cutting it.

I am thankful for players who are taking the time to check out PTS and provide feedback (both positive and negative) as I simply don't have the time to do it myself.

Joejudas

INB4 ZOS defender squad

Joejudas

andrantos wrote: »

I have always recognized ESO has having some really solid, great intentions but otherwise plagued by poor implementation/design.

I had hoped the end-game would essentially be a "play your way" while progressing in relevant ways. The problem with VR was that the most efficient way of progressing was neither fun nor engaging (questing and grinding). Instead, what should have happened, was all that end-game content (dungeons, adventure areas, pvp, etc...) should have provided solid ways of leveling VR - which didn't happen.

Top it all off with the fact that VR was itemized with its own set of tiers and gear for each VR. So it was the worst kind of end-game progression.

I like the concept of the CP system. I don't mind what I've seen of it thus far. Some form of vertical progression will be needed. If balanced well (and that is the trick) - then it can only be a good thing.

Instead of having an extra "15" levels serving as our end-game progression, we now have some form of alternate advancement. I don't believe they can itemize against the CP system - so ALL level 50 players will be on even playing field in regards to gear options. This point will make the biggest difference I think.

The other part, if each form of end-game content (dungeons, adventure areas, pvp, etc..) makes for relevant CP gains - then most players will be happy. If CP gains heavily favor one form of content over another - then we will have problems.

The problem isn't the fact that CP are a form of vertical progression - its whether or not the diminishing returns on the benefits and end-game content can be balanced such that the end-game as a whole is able to go forward in a healthy state. The end-game as it is in production simply isn't cutting it.

I am thankful for players who are taking the time to check out PTS and provide feedback (both positive and negative) as I simply don't have the time to do it myself.

It's actually smoke and mirrors. It's a horizontal progression system.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Joejudas wrote: »

INB4 ZOS defender squad

/shakeshead

You're such a bitter man, it's sad.

Nazon_Katts

It's vertical.

Any progression that raises your powerlevel is considered vertical.
Any progression that broadens your options is considered horizontal.

Even tho the CS cycles thru constellations, all it does provide is an increase in power and no additional options.

The skill system, however, could be considered horizontal, if it weren't for pretty powerful synergies between different skill lines. It does come with a bit of vertical progression of unlocking the abilities and passives, but adding skill lines broadens your options more than it does increase your powerlevel (well, mostly).

To my knowledge, there isn't any pure horizontal progression system in MMOs and it's usually implemented in a hybrid way like ESO's skill system. Best example being EvE, where you got a couple of months of vertical progression in a skill line, but years of horizontal progression by adding more lines and thus options of how to play the game, without really increasing your powerlevel to such an extent, that a new player couldn't catch up.

Joejudas

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

It's vertical.

Any progression that raises your powerlevel is considered vertical.
Any progression that broadens your options is considered horizontal.

Even tho the CS cycles thru constellations, all it does provide is an increase in power and no additional options.

The skill system, however, could be considered horizontal, if it weren't for pretty powerful synergies between different skill lines. It does come with a bit of vertical progression of unlocking the abilities and passives, but adding skill lines broadens your options more than it does increase your powerlevel (well, mostly).

To my knowledge, there isn't any pure horizontal progression system in MMOs and it's usually implemented in a hybrid way like ESO's skill system. Best example being EvE, where you got a couple of months of vertical progression in a skill line, but years of horizontal progression by adding more lines and thus options of how to play the game, without really increasing your powerlevel to such an extent, that a new player couldn't catch up.

i dont agree i think its a very bad horizontal progession system that hiding itself as a vertical system and as a new shiny for the folks coming for b2p.

Nazon_Katts

Whatever floats your boat, mate.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

To my knowledge, there isn't any pure horizontal progression system in MMOs and it's usually implemented in a hybrid way like ESO's skill system..

Not sure why you define a 'horizontal' system as one that opens up more options and then say ESO skill lines are just that.

Joejudas

its horizontal progression in the fact that it offers nice passives every 30 points in each constellation and its vertical in the sense it take 4 OR 5 HOURS TO GET A SINGLE POINT. This system will create a massive power gap that will break this game by making it viable for zos to sell exp boosters for cash

Bloodfang

Do you guys even realize that even if they added whole Tamriel it wouldn't be enough to get all the Champion Points.

It's a Horizontal Progression, you are not supposed to cap it lol. Good luck to anyone trying.

Nazon_Katts

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

To my knowledge, there isn't any pure horizontal progression system in MMOs and it's usually implemented in a hybrid way like ESO's skill system..

Not sure why you define a 'horizontal' system as one that opens up more options and then say ESO skill lines are just that.

Well, because that's what the skill lines do. They offer more options to play the game, without increasing the powerlevel of your character. At least after you have unlocked three or four lines that synergies well with each other, unlocking all others won't increase potency, but versatility.

It is a hybrid however, since every skill line does progress vertically.

Morvul

Bloodfang wrote: »

Do you guys even realize that even if they added whole Tamriel it wouldn't be enough to get all the Champion Points.

It's a Horizontal Progression, you are not supposed to cap it lol. Good luck to anyone trying.

that just makes it a very, very, veeeeery large vertical progession...
seriously, @Nazon_Katts‌ has the right of it: the currently skill lines are more of a horizontal progression system then the champion system is going to be...

AlnilamE

The thing with releasing new content before CS is implemented is that there are people who would rush through it and then complain there is nothing to do when the CS did launch.

My question is, if there was no CS and no CP to be earned, how would you be spending your time in game?

Humanistic

Wolfsspinne wrote: »

To summarize all I've read about the the best ways to get CP:
- you have to play an alt
- you have to grind mobs solo or in a two player group
- you have to do goup contend in Craglorn and in vet-dungeons
- you have to do repeatables in Cyrodiil, which leads to PvP

That is pretty much all fricking contend the game has to offer.

That's it right there, the tipping point for me anyway. PvP is fun, and it can be unpredictable, but it can also get boring running around the zone looking for fights (forgot the PvP-related quests as well).

It doesn't really matter to me if the system is defined as vertical or horizontal progression - what matters is there isn't enough content to even justify putting it in. Sure, we could level the Legerdamain skill line, but there's going to be a ton of people doing that. It's like the chest hunting before they nerfed zone chests, some people would just look for them non-stop and you could never find any because someone else probably got to it first.

When there's not enough content to support a new system like this, I feel like I'm getting ripped off. I feel like the devs are just trying to keep me interested and take my money while they plan their next phase. Quite honestly, I'm just sick of having to deal with that. I've done that with games before and it was a massive waste of time.

The developers of this game seem to put up a front like, "this game is really fun to play, so just play it and enjoy the fun parts of it until the next patch". Like they have to reinforce the fact that it's fun, when it's not. Pre-1.6, nothing I did in any other Elder Scrolls game I could do in this game. Granted, one is multiplayer, one is single-player, but there are still things that could have been implemented with a little innovation. That's where you can tell if a game is good, or bad. If they go the distance. One thing I've never liked about this game is sneaking around and picking off guards/NPC's one by one. More advanced AI would have made this game freaking incredible - but the devs seems to favor a dead horse over a live one.

Now, after the devs SWORE this game would never go free-to-play or buy-to-play, it is. That's just shotty game design in my opinion. Not staying in touch with your own game and the issues it's facing is one of the biggest trends in this industry right now.