Tell me why account wide CP is good?

Tapio75

Because i cant see any other positive in that but the fact that i have few extra points to use on new toons.. Eventually i will have tons of points on any new character i make...

I mean at first it sounds great, yay my characters are going to be more powerful but..


The bad thing i see in this, is that over long run old players will be having tons of points and any new player will naturally have none.. Only thing i can see happening due thois is that players are hugely out of balance. New players will be those who are called "cannon fodder" since they will never have as much bonuses as old ones have.. Why? Because yjey might even quit playing in frustrations. Nobody likes to be that one character who always loses due some system that profits old players and new player pay the price.

The way i see it, is that CP should have been only "Per character" basis and only allow the character that earns these points to use them. Every character should need to earn their own CP. CP should also be gained from level 1.

TheShadowScout

Personally I find the account wide ChP idea great. Once you play a character through the story, all further gain goes to all characters - making you get something decent for playing through the same content again with your next character, and giving you a slow but steady post-50 progression no matter what character you play, thus avoiding the problem where the endgame brings no character improvements anymore, just endless repetition to get that one rare gear piece your set still needs...

It is of course especially favorable for people with many characters, since then every character can benefit from the time they spend in the game. And considering just how much ChP the constellations can gobble up, that is a good thing... Since of course leveling all those alts also takes a good deal of time again. This way you don't have one mighty main and a handful of crafting only stepchild alts, but all your effort benefits each your alts. Wish some other games had thought of that...

And of course, people who come later, and thus have less playtime, will heve lower ChP to spend on buying those perks. More time = more bonus. Less time = less bonus. That is as it should be.
Not like the stuff ChP can buy you is -that- overwhelming anyhow... yes, a advanced character will be better, will have an distinct edge in one-on-one PvP. Just like in other games, people who did their grinding for the best endgame gear do. More effort spent in the game, more effect for your character. Lucky us, PvP here is more often group against group, if you face a tough guy, just team up to bring them down. (works on all but some dragonknights... )
Also... they said any ChP bonus will have diminishing returns... so the more one spends, the less they gain. So new players may never be able to actually catch up... (unless the old players start playing less, of course), but they will always get a bit closer in effect...

As for level 1... no. Just no. From level 1-50, you play through the story, build up your character, spend your stat points, get your skills done, etc. Then the system switches and you go earn ChP. Makes perfect sense to me.

Rosveen

Because if they weren't, you'd max all your characters in about 60 years or so.

Rosveen

double post

Tapio75

I can how beneficial this is to me but.. The more powerful players like us old timers there be, the less enjoyable PVP gets to newcomers..

I mean PVP as of now has been great.. People dont seem so far away from eachother when scaled up. Everyone seems to have at least some sort of fighting chance and even lasting for couple of seconds instead of insta killed is much more fun as you feel that you can at least try something..

I see it that i will like my powerful character over the years.. Or characters but i can also see myself being eventually that guy who newcomers are crying about on the forums and maybe for good reason..

In PVE i see it even worse since many of us know from experience, how bad end game players can be about stats and minor advanves, advantages... What if all those poor new players end up on their own and all those old players who necessarily are not better but just statted better stay on their own circles.. People get dismissed since they dont have that much advantage as the next guy.. Not because they are better player but because they have been around longer.. Time aloine is not a measure of anything but the lack of real life activities.

In my wievpoint, making people different from eachother by the time anyone has played is not very good.. Game should strive on keeping number based advantage as small as it can ever be and instead keep the game in the form, where players knownledge plays the biggest part.

Still, all this is good for me, right Since i cant see myself unsubbing even now since there are still some exiting things to come even while some very bad decisions have been made. I play long, i get more and more gap top new players and eventually i can start ganking them like in EVE's jumpgate ^^

AlexDougherty

Tapio75 wrote: »

Because i cant see any other positive in that but the fact that i have few extra points to use on new toons.. Eventually i will have tons of points on any new character i make...

I mean at first it sounds great, yay my characters are going to be more powerful but...

Not really, the CP system is pretty weak, you will probably raise several characters through Cadwell's silver and Gold before you get to even the equivalent of VR6, let alone VR14.

In short making it account wide isn't going to give you loads of overpowered characters, it's probably the only way to get your characters anywhere near the old strength levels.

Tapio75

But it does bother me greatly that this as whole, feels more like account progression than character progression..

I mean we play as characters, not as account.. This system feels a bit similar to EVE's skill system, weaker maybe but.. You do progress all your characters with one character, like learning a skill with one character, means that in EVE terms, i can basically have a miner and fighter.. Other has spent years on gameplay while other just put some points to those slots..

I dont like it at all that those points are usable to all characters from level 1 onwards.. They should only be available to character who earned them, not others.. And it is still way better than other games where you grind for that one piece of gear.. You still have that same progression as before but it makes more sense because you have to earn those points on that character which benefits from them.

I mean are we not supposed to be committed playing that main character? Are we not supposed to learn that other character before we start sticking points to various constellations?

Also no, i dont need to use these points if it bothers me but oh i do have to use them if i want to be on line with other players.

What is it with people these days? All those account wide necessities, all those free to play wishes.. All points to "Not willing to commit" and "Time is more important meter than skill". Still you stop to learn when you reach your capacity.

NewBlacksmurf

It's good and the best overall move. just look at the forum comments about the VR leveling problem that first changed regular exp and VR zone exp into one.

Also the VR levels cause an issue if you want to play level 50+ content with others.

The game is finally going in a better direction...give it a try, you'll like it.
It brought me back

Morshire

So, the account wide CP is almost a must the way it is currently laid out. I said somewhere else, (make believe math here) 3600CP if you could grind 1CP an hour (which is way beyond belief I think) but that is 150 days of non stop game play. Can you image doing that for all your toons? No thanks. And this "gap" people are worried about is not the way people think. VR14 characters are getting dropped so that they are closer to what is now a VR1, making the CP necessary to get them back to the "power" they enjoy now. Getting the first CP will obviously get you the most gains, so as these VR toons progress, they will slow down in "getting" ahead. This gap you are worried about will be much smaller than you think when it goes live. Of course, you could always buy diapers, drink a *** ton of energy drinks, grab some tag in partners so you could sleep every once and awhile, and grind CP for the rest of your gaming career just so you can have 4 maxed toons.

AlexDougherty

Tapio75 wrote: »

But it does bother me greatly that this as whole, feels more like account progression than character progression..

Yes, I know what you mean.

eliisra

Most MMO's with similar systems tends to have a cost curve or diminishing returns, to balance things out a bit.

So basically a new player earns his first batch of CP at a very generous rate, to catch up. Once he reaches what's considered "average amount of CP" the exp cost starts to increase. Players with hundreds of CP already, earns them at a much slower rate than a freshmen, to avoid imbalance. ESO should also have this system to.

And no, you're not supposed to be encouraged to only play one character. There's a reason we get multiple character slots. It's in every gaming developers interest to have people playing and making alts, trying all classes and so on. It keeps customers busy for months, without the need to release new content. If people only played mains, there would be a lot less repeating of old content, old quest-lines and more crying about lack of new zones and boredom.

Punishing players for making alts, by stripping them of all their already hard earned CP, would be sort of senseless.

Spiritreaver_ESO

Tapio75 wrote: »

Because i cant see any other positive in that but the fact that i have few extra points to use on new toons.. Eventually i will have tons of points on any new character i make...

I mean at first it sounds great, yay my characters are going to be more powerful but..


The bad thing i see in this, is that over long run old players will be having tons of points and any new player will naturally have none.. Only thing i can see happening due thois is that players are hugely out of balance. New players will be those who are called "cannon fodder" since they will never have as much bonuses as old ones have.. Why? Because yjey might even quit playing in frustrations. Nobody likes to be that one character who always loses due some system that profits old players and new player pay the price.

The way i see it, is that CP should have been only "Per character" basis and only allow the character that earns these points to use them. Every character should need to earn their own CP. CP should also be gained from level 1.

I briefly said in another 'CS is the worst ' thread that ZoS seems to be putting their own spin on a system we had in FFXI called the merit system. Your OP makes me see the similarities even more and is really making me dig it even more.

Moving on:

How is the situation you describe in the highlighted paragraph any different with what happens in the current VR system? If anything, the CS will help alleviate this because if a player wants to level up an alt(yes, there are some of us that like actually playing multiple classes...) after already having a highly spec'd character, that new character will have a nice little leg-up.

I really don't see how that is such a bad thing.

zward887_ESO

The biggest reason to make it account wide is because you will often compel players to play only on their main, while they may want to play on their alts, simply because its not gaining them champion points.

By making the system account wide, and much slower, you don't penalize players for not playing on their main. This was a common complaint about Rift's Planar Attunement system which was character specific back when I played.

Given a choice I would gladly have it account wide, I want to be able to hop onto my NB and enjoy a different side of the game without feeling like I'm wasting my time not playing my DK main.

Sharee

zward887_ESO wrote: »

The biggest reason to make it account wide is because you will often compel players to play only on their main, while they may want to play on their alts, simply because its not gaining them champion points.

By making the system account wide, and much slower, you don't penalize players for not playing on their main. This was a common complaint about Rift's Planar Attunement system which was character specific back when I played.

Given a choice I would gladly have it account wide, I want to be able to hop onto my NB and enjoy a different side of the game without feeling like I'm wasting my time not playing my DK main.

Yep, making it account-wide means i won't feel like i am wasting time playing an alt when i should be improving my main.

Rune_Relic

The problem is not so much the champion system, but more the fact only vets can earn champion points.

Scenario 1.
I am a 5 year vet. I start a new character and use him in PVP in cyrodiil.
Level 10 + 1000 CP points.

Scenario 2.
I am a total newb. I start a character and use him in PVP in cyrodiil.
Level 10 + 0 CP points.

Both are level 10.
Guess who dies 1st time every time regardless of player skill ?

The original system had battle levelling to make the field even and take newbs upto level 50.
There is no such equivalent system to account for the CP points gap.
Its still level 50 + 1000cp vs level 50 + 0cp

If I was a new player getting owned all the time by low level Vets all the way from 1-50. Well...I don't think I would stick around.
If I was vet I would be making new ALTS with massive CP and playing god wiping newbs and farming all that glorious AP.

Cos its fun being so outrageously OP compared to your enemies right ?
Its awesome to step over that whole sea of corpses all around you.

AlexDougherty

Rune_Relic wrote: »

The problem is not so much the champion system, but more the fact only vets can earn champion points.

Scenario 1.
I am a 5 year vet. I start a new character and use him in PVP in cyrodiil.
Level 10 + 1000 CP points.

Scenario 2.
I am a total newb. I start a character and use him in PVP in cyrodiil.
Level 10 + 0 CP points.

Both are level 10.
Guess who dies 1st time every time regardless of player skill ?

The original system had battle levelling to make the field even and take newbs upto level 50.
There is no such equivalent system to account for the CP points gap.
Its still level 50 + 1000cp vs level 50 + 0cp

If I was a new player getting owned all the time by low level Vets all the way from 1-50. Well...I don't think I would stick around.
If I was vet I would be making new ALTS with massive CP and playing god wiping newbs and farming all that glorious AP.

Cos its fun being so outrageously OP compared to your enemies right ?

A comment by a developer seems to indicate we won't get access to the champion system until we hit level 50, of course at that point the one with 1000 CPs will suddenly rocket, and outclass the new player, but up until then they should be equal.

Hutuldur

Yep, if they weren't shared, people could only play one character. Would suck badly.

Elsonso

Tapio75 wrote: »

But it does bother me greatly that this as whole, feels more like account progression than character progression.

That is because it is account progression.

I have said this before and it remains true to this day. There is only one character playing in this game: You, the @player. You are free to express Yourself in up to 8 in-game characters, but they are all @player.

The Champion System and Horses follow this trend, and we can expect more along these lines in future updates and content.

This game will not be "finished" until all content is available without the need for more than one character in the game.

Rune_Relic

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

The problem is not so much the champion system, but more the fact only vets can earn champion points.

Scenario 1.
I am a 5 year vet. I start a new character and use him in PVP in cyrodiil.
Level 10 + 1000 CP points.

Scenario 2.
I am a total newb. I start a character and use him in PVP in cyrodiil.
Level 10 + 0 CP points.

Both are level 10.
Guess who dies 1st time every time regardless of player skill ?

The original system had battle levelling to make the field even and take newbs upto level 50.
There is no such equivalent system to account for the CP points gap.
Its still level 50 + 1000cp vs level 50 + 0cp

If I was a new player getting owned all the time by low level Vets all the way from 1-50. Well...I don't think I would stick around.
If I was vet I would be making new ALTS with massive CP and playing god wiping newbs and farming all that glorious AP.

Cos its fun being so outrageously OP compared to your enemies right ?

A comment by a developer seems to indicate we won't get access to the champion system until we hit level 50, of course at that point the one with 1000 CPs will suddenly rocket, and outclass the new player, but up until then they should be equal.

Do you have a link ?
Last I heard only Vet could earn CP but any character of any level could use those CPs....hence account wide.

ie Level 1-50 new players can earn 0 CP
Level 50+ can earn CP.
ANY character can use those CP.

AlexDougherty

Rune_Relic wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

The problem is not so much the champion system, but more the fact only vets can earn champion points.

Scenario 1.
I am a 5 year vet. I start a new character and use him in PVP in cyrodiil.
Level 10 + 1000 CP points.

Scenario 2.
I am a total newb. I start a character and use him in PVP in cyrodiil.
Level 10 + 0 CP points.

Both are level 10.
Guess who dies 1st time every time regardless of player skill ?

The original system had battle levelling to make the field even and take newbs upto level 50.
There is no such equivalent system to account for the CP points gap.
Its still level 50 + 1000cp vs level 50 + 0cp

If I was a new player getting owned all the time by low level Vets all the way from 1-50. Well...I don't think I would stick around.
If I was vet I would be making new ALTS with massive CP and playing god wiping newbs and farming all that glorious AP.

Cos its fun being so outrageously OP compared to your enemies right ?

A comment by a developer seems to indicate we won't get access to the champion system until we hit level 50, of course at that point the one with 1000 CPs will suddenly rocket, and outclass the new player, but up until then they should be equal.

Do you have a link ?
Last I heard only Vet could earn CP but any character of any level could use those CPs....hence account wide.

ie Level 1-50 new players can earn 0 CP
Level 50+ can earn CP.
ANY character can use those CP.

No sorry, it was in a thread I read the other day, can't find it, but someone quoted a dev saying that a player can access his champion points once his character reaches level 50.

Now I think the dev was talking about new players, but it does seem to indicate that the champion points won't affect our characters until level 50, even if we can assign the champion points for them prior to that.

xtago

I prefer the 30 points on all toons, but that's been wiped.

As the current system is a one time pool of 70 points so if your main uses all 70 points then all alts get nothing anyway.

If people don't have a Vr14 plus vr5 toons then you don't get 70 points anyway you'll get less.

Vizier

Now I won't have to grind every toon I have to get to a competitive level. I like that. It gives me more choice in what I want to play. I won't be stuck with the dilemma of not playing a character because it 'isn't ready." I will only grind so much. It becomes work and not fun and then I'd leave so in the end, knowing me, the CP system will keep me here subbing longer.

IMHO I'm likely not the only one that feels this way and so this is a good thing for ESO.

Rune_Relic

xtago wrote: »

I prefer the 30 points on all toons, but that's been wiped.

As the current system is a one time pool of 70 points so if your main uses all 70 points then all alts get nothing anyway.

If people don't have a Vr14 plus vr5 toons then you don't get 70 points anyway you'll get less.

That's news to me too considering the last dev post in answer to the 30 point debacle that I am aware of.

v14+1,000,000 would get 70 points.
v5 would get 20 points
v10 would get 45 points
v1 +200,000 would get 1 point.
I was all about how much XP beyond level 50 you had with 200,000xp per point.

The ceiling was however 70 points. So you could have 8x v14+1,000,000 but you still wouldn't get anymore than 70 points.

This 70 points is per toon. If you have 70 points and 5 alts....everyone of those toons can use 70 points each....not in total. How you allocate each of those 70 points will depend on your build for each alt. And it does not matter what level those Alts are. Level 1 or level 50.

Ihave been away for a few weeks though. ZOS might have completely reversed everything again in that time

Wolfsspinne

It's good because maybe after like a year you get bored by your first character.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

The problem is not so much the champion system, but more the fact only vets can earn champion points.

Scenario 1.
I am a 5 year vet. I start a new character and use him in PVP in cyrodiil.
Level 10 + 1000 CP points.

Scenario 2.
I am a total newb. I start a character and use him in PVP in cyrodiil.
Level 10 + 0 CP points.

Both are level 10.
Guess who dies 1st time every time regardless of player skill ?

The original system had battle levelling to make the field even and take newbs upto level 50.
There is no such equivalent system to account for the CP points gap.
Its still level 50 + 1000cp vs level 50 + 0cp

If I was a new player getting owned all the time by low level Vets all the way from 1-50. Well...I don't think I would stick around.
If I was vet I would be making new ALTS with massive CP and playing god wiping newbs and farming all that glorious AP.

Cos its fun being so outrageously OP compared to your enemies right ?
Its awesome to step over that whole sea of corpses all around you.

Even with all CP for all the skills you don't exceed 15%~20% better stats.

A twinked char on the other hand would at least wear purple gear which has 33% better stats than the green gear of the new player (level 10). Plus the twinked character gets set bonuses.


Should gear also be made untradable?

zward887_ESO

Some of you guys are dramatically overestimating the power gap that 1000CPs will create, even for new players catching up, the first 200 points or so will get you about 80% of the relative bonus you will want for you build from the champion system. I'm not worried about power gaps at all.

Alphashado

The Vet Ranks create quite enough grind if I want to be able to use an Alt for endgame content. I like the idea that I won't have to farm separate Champion pts as well. It's really that simple.

Emma_Overload

I understand the OP's point, but it just isn't that big a deal compared to what would it would be like if you had to grind up each and every alt to VR14 separately... ain't nobody got time for that!

deepseamk20b14_ESO

Tapio75 wrote: »

Because i cant see any other positive in that but the fact that i have few extra points to use on new toons.. Eventually i will have tons of points on any new character i make...

I mean at first it sounds great, yay my characters are going to be more powerful but..


The bad thing i see in this, is that over long run old players will be having tons of points and any new player will naturally have none.. Only thing i can see happening due thois is that players are hugely out of balance. New players will be those who are called "cannon fodder" since they will never have as much bonuses as old ones have.. Why? Because yjey might even quit playing in frustrations. Nobody likes to be that one character who always loses due some system that profits old players and new player pay the price.

The way i see it, is that CP should have been only "Per character" basis and only allow the character that earns these points to use them. Every character should need to earn their own CP. CP should also be gained from level 1.

There is always new players that will be cannon fodder regardless of what you give them. Hence the "new player". So it's a pretty moot point. I can tell you right now however, as a veteran player I'd be pretty pissed if a new player could just come in and be equal to me without any of the effort.

TheShadowScout

Rune_Relic wrote: »

If I was a new player getting owned all the time by low level Vets all the way from 1-50. Well...I don't think I would stick around.
If I was vet I would be making new ALTS with massive CP and playing god wiping newbs and farming all that glorious AP.

That's how most of my PvP experience felt... getting pwned all the time by dragonknights, getting burned all the time by sorcerors, getting ganked all the time by nightblades and getting laughed at all the time by templars.
But by now my main is V14, has semi-decent gear, and some occasional successes (switching from twin daggers to bow for PvP is good for a poor stamina nightblade) before I get to respawn. Still don't win many one-on-one fights but I am feeling like I contribute to whatever side of the siege I fight on.

If I stuck around all those many, many levels poking my nose into cyrodil despite getting it punched by all the better PvPeople, I'd also stick around if I was a total newb and getting pwned all the time by champions, until I earned enough expees to raise my power to the level where I might come close enough to them to have my own chances at victory. And the diminishing returns of the champion system makes this a very valid possibility...

Hard to believe that all other players would be such milkdrinkers they ran away crying when a player more powerful through having spent half a year more on the game hands them their respawn...
Instead I would expect them to dig in, level their characters to 50, then dig in further, grab some ChP themselves, and watch how the power gap shrinks...

Tapio75

Thanks for replies, i believe i understand why you like this system so much and i do agree on some points too.

Still, i believe this is one of those cases where we dont really know what is good for the game as whole..

I also strongly dislike the trend of today that we play as accounts, we should not be accounts playing a game but our as our characters.

Champion point seems very nice to me in first glance but i have doubts about how it will end up.

It consumes time to grow alts but then again i grew accustomed to using time when playing EVE, though it was also offline time when character learns skill but it still needs great many hours to learn decent skills and still, no matter how much you use time, you will never be as good as old players since they always have more skills.. Well thats not exactly whole truth but it sounds great in this context... In other games i got accustomed to fact that character progression takes time, making an alt means you need to commit more and do it all over again but.. Why would that alt need some extras from previous characters? Hmm?

i mean that leveling an ALT still takes the same time, it still is not as powerful as capped character so you still need to use time, quite a bit of time actually.. Good thing here is that you can trade gear but trading gear to other character makes sense even in immersion perspective.. They might be considered heirlooms from relatives for all we know..

IF champion system would be bit more different.. Bonuses the same BUT the amount of CP needed less.. You would get CP from level 1.. That could easily replace the whole level system and level would only become a number that dictates when you open skills.. Whole champion system seems a bit like Skyrims progression and in Skyrim, we only progress that one particular character.. Then another different.. Game could be eventually tweaked to represent that, people say that MMO needs a level progression but i dont believe it does.

I hope i make sense at least a bit.. I lost the line of what i was going to write so i just stop here.

Joejudas

Unless they tweak the amount of exp it takes to gain a cp....it takes a long time to get a cp....So sharing the across your account is great