Forward Camps

cravnbeer

Are we going to seem them returned in some shape or form?
I missed the more fast past and instant action they provided.

Artemiisia

right now the official statement is no, not in the next patch nor in crown store

Sylvyr

They said no, but that could change.

UrQuan

As someone who doesn't play PVP and never paid attention to what was going on with forward camps, why were they removed in the first place? Were they being abused somehow?

cravnbeer

That breaks my heart. I loved cyrodiil before they removed them.
Now I try to love it and I spend most of my time riding to the fight.

Last night I felt like I was chasing every battle in Thornblade. Spent time riding only to arrive after it is all over and the battle had moved elsewhere. Or simply was taken out by some ninja with a bow to quickly to even react.
It isn't like the lag went away either. I pretty much lagged out at the few fights I managed to be there for ( waited around at a keep til it was attacked ).

Thanks for the info.

cravnbeer

UrQuan wrote: »

As someone who doesn't play PVP and never paid attention to what was going on with forward camps, why were they removed in the first place? Were they being abused somehow?

I think to try and alleviate some lag

Jaxsun

UrQuan wrote: »

As someone who doesn't play PVP and never paid attention to what was going on with forward camps, why were they removed in the first place? Were they being abused somehow?

They were not being abused, however, they were being used in a manner that was not necessarily intended by the devs. This got a small percentage of extremely vocal clowns to endlessly rage about it in the forums until they were removed. My stance was that subterfuge is a part of warfare and people should grow up, but those people could not comprehend that and cried.

What was happening is that people would log onto low level alts into Cyrodiil on the opposite faction from their main toon and place camps in places that prevented them from being placed in a wanted location by the faction of their low level alt and making it so that the faction their main toon was on would have an advantage. This allowed keeps, scrolls and outposts to be taken by factions that might not necessarily have taken them if they could have had a camp in a different location. This made a lot of people miss out on meaningless video game accomplishments so they raged.

Jaxsun

cravnbeer wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

As someone who doesn't play PVP and never paid attention to what was going on with forward camps, why were they removed in the first place? Were they being abused somehow?

I think to try and alleviate some lag

Nope, mindless blind rage got them removed.

MasterSpatula

Jaxsun wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

As someone who doesn't play PVP and never paid attention to what was going on with forward camps, why were they removed in the first place? Were they being abused somehow?

They were not being abused, however, they were being used in a manner that was not necessarily intended by the devs. This got a small percentage of extremely vocal clowns to endlessly rage about it in the forums until they were removed. My stance was that subterfuge is a part of warfare and people should grow up, but those people could not comprehend that and cried.

What was happening is that people would log onto low level alts into Cyrodiil on the opposite faction from their main toon and place camps in places that prevented them from being placed in a wanted location by the faction of their low level alt and making it so that the faction their main toon was on would have an advantage. This allowed keeps, scrolls and outposts to be taken by factions that might not necessarily have taken them if they could have had a camp in a different location. This made a lot of people miss out on meaningless video game accomplishments so they raged.

You're absolutely right, the people employing a cheap, sleazy tactic are the real victims here and those who called people out on it were just crying.

dharbert

Forward camps turned Cyrodiil into the equivalent of the Nuketown map in Call Of Duty: Black Ops. Zerg....die....respawn.....zerg.....die....respawn.....over and over and over and over and over.

AllPlayAndNoWork

Leave them in the bin.

Jaxsun

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

As someone who doesn't play PVP and never paid attention to what was going on with forward camps, why were they removed in the first place? Were they being abused somehow?

They were not being abused, however, they were being used in a manner that was not necessarily intended by the devs. This got a small percentage of extremely vocal clowns to endlessly rage about it in the forums until they were removed. My stance was that subterfuge is a part of warfare and people should grow up, but those people could not comprehend that and cried.

What was happening is that people would log onto low level alts into Cyrodiil on the opposite faction from their main toon and place camps in places that prevented them from being placed in a wanted location by the faction of their low level alt and making it so that the faction their main toon was on would have an advantage. This allowed keeps, scrolls and outposts to be taken by factions that might not necessarily have taken them if they could have had a camp in a different location. This made a lot of people miss out on meaningless video game accomplishments so they raged.

You're absolutely right, the people employing a cheap, sleazy tactic are the real victims here and those who called people out on it were just crying.

I'm glad you understand, welcome to the right side of the issue.

cravnbeer

Maybe they should allow for a cyrodiil server with forward camp usage. Pick one of the pve buff servers.
This way those can seek out the different play styles slower pace and another faster pace.

Seriously horse riding is mind numbing.

Black_Wolf88

pvp is better without the camps. too many were just rushing in to die then respawn to do the same all over again.

badmojo

To me the camps seemed like a tool from development that was left in too long.

I would rather see an item/ability for group leaders to cast that would allow dead group members to spawn in on them, but only if they're lying dead within a certain range. Maybe even an expensive AOE rez siege item.

Or have the forward camps be more important and expensive. 1 Million AP for a camp that links up with your transit network. Make it tied to a keep so if the distance between two keeps is 1000m, make the range for the camp 600m from the keep. If you lose the keep(s) it's connected to, you lose transit. Give the camp some small defensive structures(walls, sandbags, shooting platforms, etc), add some NPC guards to keep watch, and one of those glowing things with 4 mages around it, the ones you find in the towers of keeps. Mark the camp on the map for every faction to see.

They need to make it like a moveable outpost, but without the permanent structure, you can port in but not out, and it has to be connected to the transit network.

The current camps are just way too OP, they made rez'ing next to pointless. Something has to change with them before they come back.

starkerealm

Jaxsun wrote: »

What was happening is that people would log onto low level alts into Cyrodiil on the opposite faction from their main toon and place camps in places that prevented them from being placed in a wanted location by the faction of their low level alt and making it so that the faction their main toon was on would have an advantage. This allowed keeps, scrolls and outposts to be taken by factions that might not necessarily have taken them if they could have had a camp in a different location. This made a lot of people miss out on meaningless video game accomplishments so they raged. allowed their native faction to spawn camp a faction.

Fixed that for ya.

But, yeah, there was some abuse going on.

daswahnsinn

dharbert wrote: »

Forward camps turned Cyrodiil into the equivalent of the Nuketown map in Call Of Duty: Black Ops. Zerg....die....respawn.....zerg.....die....respawn.....over and over and over and over and over.

I used to snipe on Nuketown while everyone else was running around like an idiot, I could get k/d of 17/3 on that map.

Jaxsun

starkerealm wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

What was happening is that people would log onto low level alts into Cyrodiil on the opposite faction from their main toon and place camps in places that prevented them from being placed in a wanted location by the faction of their low level alt and making it so that the faction their main toon was on would have an advantage. This allowed keeps, scrolls and outposts to be taken by factions that might not necessarily have taken them if they could have had a camp in a different location. This made a lot of people miss out on meaningless video game accomplishments so they raged. allowed their native faction to spawn camp a faction.

Fixed that for ya.

But, yeah, there was some abuse going on.

I never had that issue, just the camp limit being reached and camps in spots that would get keeps taken from you cuz you couldn't place them where you wanted. But, I don't doubt that spawn camping happened.

starkerealm

Jaxsun wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Jaxsun wrote: »

What was happening is that people would log onto low level alts into Cyrodiil on the opposite faction from their main toon and place camps in places that prevented them from being placed in a wanted location by the faction of their low level alt and making it so that the faction their main toon was on would have an advantage. This allowed keeps, scrolls and outposts to be taken by factions that might not necessarily have taken them if they could have had a camp in a different location. This made a lot of people miss out on meaningless video game accomplishments so they raged. allowed their native faction to spawn camp a faction.

Fixed that for ya.

But, yeah, there was some abuse going on.

I never had that issue, just the camp limit being reached and camps in spots that would get keeps taken from you cuz you couldn't place them where you wanted. But, I don't doubt that spawn camping happened.

Yeah, I actually experienced it a couple times. You'd have someone off faction drop a camp right next to the other faction's swarm. Then someone would caltrops it, and anyone coming out would be murdered as soon as they'd respawn.

JoffyToffy69

There are very simple solutions that could have been implemented.
The most basic; make FC group only. This alone would fix so many problems. Prevents the sabotage from spies/trolls and even pugs.

I think another issue people cried about was the die/teleport thing going on. One person could plant a FC and instantly have a zerg spawn.
Simple solution; restrict the resurrections to the radius of the FC. They already had a radius system implemented to prevent spamming FCs in an area.
Currently, if a map is dominated, zergs can almost instantly come to defend and constantly res at keep (given the right conditions) yet attackers don't have that luxury. FCs assist smaller groups that would be wiped due to being out numbered.

I prefer the FCs. They added some tactics. Placing them in hidden places to prevent enemies finding them.
Even looking for FCs too added that little bit extra when securing a location.

Riding does take too long, especially when the map is dominated by one faction. It becomes more difficult to gain any ground.
Smaller groups had more of a chance with FCs too.
I think without the FCs it has become more reliant on numbers.

MasterSpatula

I've barely been in Cyrodiil since they removed FCs. I gave it a try tonight. Something like a seven-minute horse ride only to encounter a gank squad on the outskirts of the keep being attacked. Seven minutes of doing nothing but traveling only to end up having not one second of enjoyment. Why would I want to repeat that experience? I don't mind losing, but I sure mind not even getting to participate in any way (other than in the obvious way--getting farmed for cheap points). I left.

Forward Camps may have been problematic before, but without them the tedium aspect of Cyrodiil is really ramped up. There has to be some kind of way to make them work, some kind of way to increase the amount of time we're actually fighting and decrease the amount of time we're traveling, some kind of way to make me want to get back into the fight again if I'm killed quickly rather than make me throw my hands up and say, "No way I'm throwing my time away like that again."

starkerealm

MasterSpatula wrote: »

I've barely been in Cyrodiil since they removed FCs. I gave it a try tonight. Something like a seven-minute horse ride only to encounter a gank squad on the outskirts of the keep being attacked. Seven minutes of doing nothing but traveling only to end up having not one second of enjoyment. Why would I want to repeat that experience? I don't mind losing, but I sure mind not even getting to participate in any way (other than in the obvious way--getting farmed for cheap points). I left.

Forward Camps may have been problematic before, but without them the tedium aspect of Cyrodiil is really ramped up. There has to be some kind of way to make them work, some kind of way to increase the amount of time we're actually fighting and decrease the amount of time we're traveling, some kind of way to make me want to get back into the fight again if I'm killed quickly rather than make me throw my hands up and say, "No way I'm throwing my time away like that again."

The smart option would be to give each keep forward camp "build pads." So an assaulting force could actually assemble a forward camp, and possibly some minor defenses.

It would mean the defensive players couldn't just hold up in their keep and watch the chaos unfold below them. It would let you use forward camps without the trolling that went into them.

Hell, it would let you adjust them so they actually looked like they had been constructed on the spot, rather than just being the same visual stamped down randomly.

Nova Sky

If abuse by low-level alts was a major reason why Zeni killed forward camps in Cyrodiil, would it have been all that hard to, perhaps, make it so only VR toons would be capable of carrying/deploying FCs?

Samadhi

cravnbeer wrote: »

That breaks my heart. I loved cyrodiil before they removed them.
Now I try to love it and I spend most of my time riding to the fight.
...

Because you die frequently, or because you used to suicide port everywhere?

AriBoh

ZOS_BrianWheeler mod
January 28 Staff Post
We are still looking at forward camps and whether they will be coming back in a modified form but for now and the foreseeable future, they are still not going to be sold by merchants or the crown store.

ZOS_BrianWheeler mod
January 28 edited January 28 Staff Post
The current state of Forward Camps internally have some UI issues we're still working through before we put them on a public test realm so while I'd like to get them to you to try, they really aren't too functional at the moment.

We would want them implemented with many of the suggestions made here with reduced radius and respawning within the circle only, but also with a universal timer for using forward camps. Until we get the UI for all of that in and working, they won't be available to test.

cravnbeer

Samadhi wrote: »

cravnbeer wrote: »

That breaks my heart. I loved cyrodiil before they removed them.
Now I try to love it and I spend most of my time riding to the fight.
...

Because you die frequently, or because you used to suicide port everywhere?

Is this some sort of elitist snipe?
I die frequently because I suck and that is that.

Nothing about horse riding that requires skill. I spend most of my time chasing battles or getting killed by some gank squad just to have to reface them. So that sounds fun.
There are a lot of types of pvp games, some slow pace and some fast pace. The forward camps kept the action almost up constantly giving the more fast pace action and without it the pvp action moves more slowly and take calculations. Sometimes I like a fast pace game other times I prefer a more slow and calculated approach. I usually have to look to multiple games to satisfy that but if they add another pvp server with a forward camp ruleset ( use a pve buffer) it would give the players seeking to pvp different game type options

thelordoffelines

WHY IS EVERYONES HORSES SOO SLOW IT TAKES ME 20 SECONDS AT MOST TO GO FROM KEEP TO KEEP.

Samadhi

cravnbeer wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

cravnbeer wrote: »

That breaks my heart. I loved cyrodiil before they removed them.
Now I try to love it and I spend most of my time riding to the fight.
...

Because you die frequently, or because you used to suicide port everywhere?

Is this some sort of elitist snipe?
I die frequently because I suck and that is that.
...

Not an "elitist snipe" at all, do not consider myself particularly good.
Simply asked for your source of enjoying Forward Camps so much.

Some people want them back because they want to suicide port everywhere for easy travel around the map. This was an exploit, and garners no sympathy.
Some people want them back simply because they die frequently and miss having no repercussions to death; while it is possible to sympathize with such people, Forward Camps in their previous incarnation were a bad mechanic. Forward Camps incentivized player suicide and turned PvP into a mindless game of throwing bodies at each other.

Looking forward to the updated Forward Camps which will hopefully deter suicide porting and provide less incentive to death via respawn cooldowns; however, until those are adequately ready, give thanks for the outright absence of the old version.