Vampires & Werewolves NOT mentioned in Justice System!

Lokryn

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Lokryn wrote: »

ShadowHvo wrote: »

I can confirm from the PTS that vampires do not become KoS immediately in stage four. However feeding on an innocent immediately gives you full heat, aka making you KoS.

Well, at least that's something. I guess you could argue that vampires can hide their nature with a hood or armor. But I think we all agree that a transformed werewolf should definitely be KoS.

Just tested it out, and I'm afraid turning into a werewolf does not do anything in the towns. Transformed in front of two guards just 3 minutes ago, and neither reacted at all.

Though, as soon as I slashed out for an innocent I got max heat immedately, just like vampires with their feeding.

It would be nice if a developer would chime in on this issue. It's a total bummer from a RP and immersion standpoint that vampires and werewolves are left out of the Justice System.

Korah_Eaglecry

Personally I dont see them ever taking action against Werewolves and Vampires. Im sure it would add to the immersion but so many would cry about it that it would never make it to live.

If they did add Werewolves and Vampires to the Justice System then Werewolf and Vampire Dens should be created. Where they are safe amongst their own and outsiders are kill on site. But then youd have plenty crying that they cant visit these Werewolf and Vampire Dens because they arent stricken with the disease.

LionheartRichard

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Personally I dont see them ever taking action against Werewolves and Vampires. Im sure it would add to the immersion but so many would cry about it that it would never make it to live.

If they did add Werewolves and Vampires to the Justice System then Werewolf and Vampire Dens should be created. Where they are safe amongst their own and outsiders are kill on site. But then youd have plenty crying that they cant visit these Werewolf and Vampire Dens because they arent stricken with the disease.

Or they could also make it so that human form ww are fine (but wolves get attacked, and if you are detected changing you get a fine) and level 1-3 vamps are hidden, just like previous ES games. Much less work than new zones and makes it so much more immersive.

Korah_Eaglecry

LionheartRichard wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Personally I dont see them ever taking action against Werewolves and Vampires. Im sure it would add to the immersion but so many would cry about it that it would never make it to live.

If they did add Werewolves and Vampires to the Justice System then Werewolf and Vampire Dens should be created. Where they are safe amongst their own and outsiders are kill on site. But then youd have plenty crying that they cant visit these Werewolf and Vampire Dens because they arent stricken with the disease.

Or they could also make it so that human form ww are fine (but wolves get attacked, and if you are detected changing you get a fine) and level 1-3 vamps are hidden, just like previous ES games. Much less work than new zones and makes it so much more immersive.

Im talking areas where being in WW Form and Level 4 Vamp are safe. And these wouldnt be new zones. But instead just things like delves placed on existing regions where these groups can congregate, sell their junk, fix armor and buy mats.

starkerealm

ShadowHvo wrote: »

IF your theory about his daughter or wife turning him is correct, then that completely annihilates what you said previously with first and second generation vampires being vampire lords, as that would NOT grant the Dragonborn the vampire lord form after being turned by Harkon, yet we know that is not the case.

No, what I said was:

starkerealm wrote: »

The Vampire Lord transform seems to last for at least two generations from the original daughters...

Note the way that's phrased, "from," as in "not counting the Daughters." Serana to Harkon = 1, Harkon to the Dragonborn = 2.

We know it's extremely rare, to the point where it isn't even documented in setting. People who actively study vampires don't know it exists. So it's either something that only lasts a couple generations from the Daughters, or it's something unique to Serana. (Since the only characters that have proven they have the capacity are Serana, Harkon, and the Player.)

When pondering this, it's worth remembering the Volkihar do exist in the setting's literature. They pop up in Immortal Blood. With no mention of the transform at all.

You want to make a compelling argument? Try to find some source that indicates there are other kinds of pure blood vampires.


Also, this puts to bed any suggestion that Harkon is even pure blooded:

ShadowHvo wrote: »

EDIT:

Also, it is not pure-blooded vampires AND daughters of coldharbour, this is what said about the prophecy.

<Valerica> When I fled Castle Volkihar, I fled with two Elder Scrolls. The scroll I presume you found with Serana speaks of Auriel and his arcane weapon, Auriel's Bow. The second scroll declares that "The Blood of Coldharbour's Daughter will blind the eye of the Dragon."
<Dragonborn> How does Serana fit in?
<Valerica> Like myself, Serana was a human once. We were devout followers of Lord Molag Bal. Tradition dictates the females be offered to Molag Bal on his summoning day. Few survive the ordeal. Those that do emerge as a pure-blooded vampire. We call such confluences the "Daughters of Coldharbour."

I know you posted it, but I have the suspicion you didn't understand what you just read. Note there's no discussion of Harkon in those lines. It's not, "they're offered up to Molag Bal and then it's a vampire party for everyone."

There's an interesting thing with the way that's written. Most of the time it's just "Daughters of Coldharbour" or ("Cold Harbour" either way.) But, in this case it's talking about a specific individual. Not an indefinite daughter. It probably means Lamae, and given that Vyrthur wrote it, and he (presumably) knew Lamae existed, and tried to bait her out of hiding, probably without knowing that the sun doesn't actually affect her bloodline.

That said, Dawnguard does start to tangle the timeline's continuity into a knot. Vyrthur has to have been turned in the Metheric era, but the first vampires on Nirn only date back to the First Era.

starkerealm

MornaBaine wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Harkon outright says he is a pure-blooded vampire. And we know being a Daughter of Coldharbour means that you're in fact a pure-blooded vampire, so it most certainly must be "both"

Vyrthur also says it in such a method.. Which to me, at least in my ears is a direct continuation on the same sentence, to clarify what he specificly is meaning, as not all pure vampires are daughters of coldharbour.

From the dialog files, it's actually a separate sentence, which is... grammatically iffy. It should probably be delineated by a semi-colon, but those scare people... so.

If English isn't your native language, this could be tripping you up, because this is a somewhat uncommon, rhetorical construction that's way too prevalent in fantasy writing.

You want to use a specialized, loaded, or obscure term, but you also need to define it for the audience. Granted, the Vyrthur dialog is using one loaded term to describe another, and that's just sloppy writing, but it does start tying terms together.

For example: if I were to say, "it's a poorly made copy of the original; a simulacrum." It's the same construction. I'm defining what the thing is, and then telling you the specialized term. Or, "this is pure schadenfreude; to take joy in another's misfortune." Using the specialized term first, then defining it.

As a continuation of the same sentence, Vyrthur is actually marrying the two terms together. Daughters are pure blooded vampires.

If they're supposed to be separate logical arguments in the same statement, then what Vyrthur says doesn't make sense. It'd be like saying, "I need a frog, that is also an amphibian." Because you're never going to find... say, a mammalian frog (I dearly hope), and because the amphibian part doesn't matter.

If he just needs a Daughter, then the part about a pure blood vampire doesn't matter. Because, again, you can't have a Daughter of Cold Harbour who isn't also a pure blood vampire. It would be like like him belting out, "I WROTE THIS PROPHESY TO SUMMON A FROG THAT IS ALSO AN AMPHIBIAN! CAN YOU FIND ME SUCH A CREATURE?

I tend to agree with your conclusion about Harkon while understanding that there are inevitably going to be those who doubt. As an aside, I also find it a little amusing that many (not all) men seem to be fine with the idea that Molag Bal rapes women to death and a few "lucky" survivors come out vampires but get all squeemish and insist that there MUST be "some other" mechanism for making men vampires when it's done directly by Molag Bal. LOL But, most importantly, I just wanted to tell you that, after reading this post, if you are not mobbed with fan mail and date offers by English Majors, I will be very surprised. Were I not already very cheerfully married to a man with an equally astonishing command of the language, I'd be one of them.

Funny you should mention that; my significant other got her Bachelors in English Lit.

I've always assumed Harkon got Serana to chow down on him after she turned. The whole part where he tossed his wife and daughter to Molag Bal, and then follows it with, "dude, Molag Bal made me awesome," fits with his personality. It certainly fits with the family dynamics we see.

ShadowHvo

starkerealm wrote: »

ShadowHvo wrote: »

IF your theory about his daughter or wife turning him is correct, then that completely annihilates what you said previously with first and second generation vampires being vampire lords, as that would NOT grant the Dragonborn the vampire lord form after being turned by Harkon, yet we know that is not the case.

No, what I said was:

starkerealm wrote: »

The Vampire Lord transform seems to last for at least two generations from the original daughters...

Note the way that's phrased, "from," as in "not counting the Daughters." Serana to Harkon = 1, Harkon to the Dragonborn = 2.

We know it's extremely rare, to the point where it isn't even documented in setting. People who actively study vampires don't know it exists. So it's either something that only lasts a couple generations from the Daughters, or it's something unique to Serana. (Since the only characters that have proven they have the capacity are Serana, Harkon, and the Player.)

When pondering this, it's worth remembering the Volkihar do exist in the setting's literature. They pop up in Immortal Blood. With no mention of the transform at all.

You want to make a compelling argument? Try to find some source that indicates there are other kinds of pure blood vampires.


Also, this puts to bed any suggestion that Harkon is even pure blooded:

ShadowHvo wrote: »

EDIT:

Also, it is not pure-blooded vampires AND daughters of coldharbour, this is what said about the prophecy.

<Valerica> When I fled Castle Volkihar, I fled with two Elder Scrolls. The scroll I presume you found with Serana speaks of Auriel and his arcane weapon, Auriel's Bow. The second scroll declares that "The Blood of Coldharbour's Daughter will blind the eye of the Dragon."
<Dragonborn> How does Serana fit in?
<Valerica> Like myself, Serana was a human once. We were devout followers of Lord Molag Bal. Tradition dictates the females be offered to Molag Bal on his summoning day. Few survive the ordeal. Those that do emerge as a pure-blooded vampire. We call such confluences the "Daughters of Coldharbour."

I know you posted it, but I have the suspicion you didn't understand what you just read. Note there's no discussion of Harkon in those lines. It's not, "they're offered up to Molag Bal and then it's a vampire party for everyone."

There's an interesting thing with the way that's written. Most of the time it's just "Daughters of Coldharbour" or ("Cold Harbour" either way.) But, in this case it's talking about a specific individual. Not an indefinite daughter. It probably means Lamae, and given that Vyrthur wrote it, and he (presumably) knew Lamae existed, and tried to bait her out of hiding, probably without knowing that the sun doesn't actually affect her bloodline.

That said, Dawnguard does start to tangle the timeline's continuity into a knot. Vyrthur has to have been turned in the Metheric era, but the first vampires on Nirn only date back to the First Era.

Honestly I can no longer be bothered to nitpick, so I shall throw you a wall of text instead.

Firstly, that is not how generation works. Daughters of Coldharbour are First Generation vampires, they do not become "0" or whatnow generation term you would like to use, with fancy english us european don't use.

Neither do you have ANY single actual legit prof to your claim, that Serana or Valerica were the ones to turn Harkon. As Valerica also was given to Molag for defilement, we can only assume that she also posses the vampire lord form, just like Serana and Harkon. We know Harkon sacrificed a thousand innocent in Molags name in order to get the gift himself. THAT is what we're being told. He did not sacrifice them for his wife nor child, but for Molag Bal.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Lord_Harkon

All we know from lore is that Pure-blooded vampires comes from direct contact with Molag. Those two being Harkon, Verandis and the Daughters of Coldharbour.

While Verandis is edgy, he never claims it. YET we even see Majorn the Ancient using something which resembles a vampire lord form. Though for all we know, that could as well be some strange "Transform into Gargoyle with red stripes form"

We don't even know whenever the vampire lord form is exclusive to the Volkihar, or if it is for all the first and second generation vampires. Hell, for all we know it might even be granted with age! Yay theory crafting!

But sure, if you wish to be so above and beyond all else with your theory about Harkon being turned by Serana and not Molag Bal, I suggest you go can discuss this topic with the other ES vampire lore fans, and also poke the UESP guys to change this:

"To combat the inevitable, he made a pact with Molag Bal and sacrificed a thousand innocents in his name. In return, the Daedric Prince granted him immortality by turning him and his family into pure-blooded vampires, giving birth to the Volkihar bloodline."

Oh, and change the wiki too I guess, as apparently all else, besides you, believe Harkon to be a pure-blooded vampire, granted by Molag Bal himself from what information we've recieved from the Dawnguard expansion.

No matter, I'm done discussing this matter now, I'm not spending more of my free time discussing a vague lore point, which only the developers truely can answer.

starkerealm

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Hell, for all we know it might even be granted with age! Yay theory crafting!

Yeah, that word you are using, I do not think it means what you believe it does.

Also, this is just a flat out logic fail on your part, because otherwise the Dragonborn in Skyrim would be excluded from transforming. If all you're going to do is randomly insult people, you can stop now. Go off and pretend whatever you want.