Lessons from LoTRO...

Amsel_McKay

As a retired LoTRO player this seems just like the changes LoTRO made.

When the shop came to LoTRO the game worked fine with subscription giving you a small amount of god to use in the shop and it opened all the areas.

If you played without a subscription you had to buy areas to quest, experience potions etc.

After time is when the problems happen: The box sales will get a huge early burst and then it will dry up, that is when the problems start. People who played the game will have enough crowns to buy xpacks, gear and items. The only way Zenimax will be able to make money is by creating more cash shop items.

Opening more levels in Champion Points (100 crowns) etc etc...

over time all the subs will be gone unless you make it WAY more useful then the free to play people. If you can do quests to get crowns I will drop my sub because I can get all the content for free (I already bought the box)

Please developers learn from the LoTRO model, I loved that game and have stuck up for it on the great MMO voting, but all the people on here said (and rightfully so) that it was a "Pay to win" model and that is why ESO (sorry TU) was better...

daneyulebub17_ESO

Well said. The hybrid F2P model seems to work for a while, but when the easy money dries up, in comes the constant stream of cash shop items, and previously free things costing "turbine points" (I mean "crowns") and soon almost all the new content is store related with occasional lackluster expansions. The "good" player base starts to quit, so it becomes more and more about making the game easy and accessible for the temporary ones who might stay for a few months and buy a few shiny things or getting the completest "whales" that remain to spend hundreds on every cheesy, re-skinned mount they release each month.

Morshire

Agreed - the cash shop is not the "end of the world", but experience has shown that it does mark the beginning of the end. When LOTRO went F2P, I still found reasons to justify my "VIP" sub. But with each passing "upgrade" it was harder and harder to justify this. Pretty soon 1/2 the game was in that "cash shop" and 1/2 the forums were about "Why can't I buy X". It was a downhill spiral. Don't get me wrong, I am not running just yet. Extremely disappointed that ZOS chose to follow this path and it does not bolster my confidence in the team behind this game (Or the people behind the team I should say) I have a ton of friends that will come flooding back to the game now that it is F2P. ESO is going to have a rough time keeping people buying subs though, and that will be the sound of the "fat lady singing."

Amsel_McKay

LoTRO was called B2P for its store launch... then more and more got added to the store, you cant even subscribe anymore its all store purchases

KaneK899ub17_ESO

The reality is cash shop models generate a lot of income. Nexon and Webzen make more money than Blizzard and they only run F2P games with cash shops. Once the financial folks behind the change see how much money it generates, they'll only want to keep adding *** to it. It becomes less about providing quality, deep content and more about superficial shinies people love so much.

It also incentives implementing frustrating, random and pay-walled content. Ever hit up a F2P game and notice you have 20 bag slots, but for 10 bucks you can rent 40 more for a month? Or buy 50 more permanently? That's the type of stuff. It caters to the folks who don't dedicate themselves much to the game and just look to play for a few months, spend a few bucks and get out - long-time players and dedicated fans are left out in these models.

Gold boosters will also only hurt the economy if they aren't handled delicately - and even then they will likely cause massive inflation.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

LoTRO was called B2P for its store launch... then more and more got added to the store, you cant even subscribe anymore its all store purchases

LOTRO was never B2P. When they went F2P you didnt need to buy the box anymore. Buy to play means you have to buy the box.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

KaneK899ub17_ESO wrote: »

The reality is cash shop models generate a lot of income. Nexon and Webzen make more money than Blizzard and they only run F2P games with cash shops. Once the financial folks behind the change see how much money it generates, they'll only want to keep adding *** to it. It becomes less about providing quality, deep content and more about superficial shinies people love so much.

It also incentives implementing frustrating, random and pay-walled content. Ever hit up a F2P game and notice you have 20 bag slots, but for 10 bucks you can rent 40 more for a month? Or buy 50 more permanently? That's the type of stuff. It caters to the folks who don't dedicate themselves much to the game and just look to play for a few months, spend a few bucks and get out - long-time players and dedicated fans are left out in these models.

Gold boosters will also only hurt the economy if they aren't handled delicately - and even then they will likely cause massive inflation.

This is exactly what they will do to people who pay subscriptions. Want that extra bag space? Well that doesnt come with the sub that'll be $10. Want extra character slots. Oh ya those dont come with the sub either. $20 each. Etc etc

Amsel_McKay

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

LoTRO was called B2P for its store launch... then more and more got added to the store, you cant even subscribe anymore its all store purchases

LOTRO was never B2P. When they went F2P you didnt need to buy the box anymore. Buy to play means you have to buy the box.

Its B2P because everyone already bought the box... same as ESO is going to be for me. The new store is "F2P" for me because I own the box... So its WORSE then F2P because now the first paygate is buying the box...

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

LoTRO was called B2P for its store launch... then more and more got added to the store, you cant even subscribe anymore its all store purchases

LOTRO was never B2P. When they went F2P you didnt need to buy the box anymore. Buy to play means you have to buy the box.

Its B2P because everyone already bought the box... same as ESO is going to be for me. The new store is "F2P" for me because I own the box... So its WORSE then F2P because now the first paygate is buying the box...

You dont understand what B2P and F2P are I guess.

nateedubs

The OP makes a good point. I played LOTRO for a long time, before and after the hybrid f2p model. I hope ZOS knows what they are doing.

Amsel_McKay

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

LoTRO was called B2P for its store launch... then more and more got added to the store, you cant even subscribe anymore its all store purchases

LOTRO was never B2P. When they went F2P you didnt need to buy the box anymore. Buy to play means you have to buy the box.

Its B2P because everyone already bought the box... same as ESO is going to be for me. The new store is "F2P" for me because I own the box... So its WORSE then F2P because now the first paygate is buying the box...

You dont understand what B2P and F2P are I guess.

In LoTRO you B2P expansion packs... its 100% the same... its just bought in the store... people already owned the original game.

ESO is B2P as much as LoTRO

daneyulebub17_ESO

Wait--Lotro doesn't have subs at all anymore? Really?

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

LoTRO was called B2P for its store launch... then more and more got added to the store, you cant even subscribe anymore its all store purchases

LOTRO was never B2P. When they went F2P you didnt need to buy the box anymore. Buy to play means you have to buy the box.

Its B2P because everyone already bought the box... same as ESO is going to be for me. The new store is "F2P" for me because I own the box... So its WORSE then F2P because now the first paygate is buying the box...

You dont understand what B2P and F2P are I guess.

In LoTRO you B2P expansion packs... its 100% the same... its just bought in the store... people already owned the original game.

ESO is B2P as much as LoTRO

BUY to play means you buy the box. You dont have to buy the box for LOTRO as a new customer. LOTRO is FREE to play meaning you dont have to buy anything but expansions. ESO is buy to play meaning you have to buy the box to even log into the game.

Amsel_McKay

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Wait--Lotro doesn't have subs at all anymore? Really?

You have "lifetime" subs still which gives you points each month...

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Wait--Lotro doesn't have subs at all anymore? Really?

LOTRO does have a VIP sub option.

mamericus

Funny thing is... LotRO had to recur to this model because it was already dying... the servers were half empty and you could barely get a group together to run a raid anymore. Of course they could have tried to merge their servers first, but alas they went F2P.

I actually THOUGHT this game was doing well. This came as a complete shock to me. I still miss LotRO and the community there, after almost seven years I spent. I expect I will get over this one faster since it's only been a year, but right now my heart aches so much, I am literally on the verge of tears out of anger and disappointment.

If you MUST learn something from the LotRO model I would suggest: Don't let greed overtake you, NEVER introduce any non-vanity items that cannot be obtained in-game through other means, and simply, do it better.

Maybe I should give WoW a third try. I think they've betrayed their own IP so bad, but they've been the only company with the BALLS to stick to a P2P model and not betray their founders and original subscribers.

Amsel_McKay

mamericus wrote: »

Funny thing is... LotRO had to recur to this model because it was already dying... the servers were half empty and you could barely get a group together to run a raid anymore. Of course they could have tried to merge their servers first, but alas they went F2P.

I actually THOUGHT this game was doing well. This came as a complete shock to me. I still miss LotRO and the community there, after almost seven years I spent. I expect I will get over this one faster since it's only been a year, but right now my heart aches so much, I am literally on the verge of tears out of anger and disappointment.

If you MUST learn something from the LotRO model I would suggest: Don't let greed overtake you, NEVER introduce any non-vanity items that cannot be obtained in-game through other means, and simply, do it better.

Maybe I should give WoW a third try. I think they've betrayed their own IP so bad, but they've been the only company with the BALLS to stick to a P2P model and not betray their founders and original subscribers.

I feel the same way... LoTRO was the first I really felt this road... it sounded like it was going to work and I think for a while it did.

Pendrillion

The only thing that comes to my mind, was why I always looked at MMOs as something a bit suspicious. Mainly because so many MMO's out there screw you over one way or another. I wish creative studios would give the short term business strategies a refusal. Mainly in MMO's you have very high demands on putting out content and keeping the technical side of things going, also personal costs for community contacts and management.

Thats NOT in any way and mean a flexible business you can just adapt at the whims of our todays market and customer base. I really cannot see why they don't plan accordingly and just go out and expect to milk the quick and big buck, and even expand on that.

Aside from stock exchange THAT NEVER works! And even there you try to consolidate your base assets for Stendarrs sake!

I feel strong about ESO because I feel strong about Elder Scrolls. Because it is a part of my live which I love to invest time and money, and also creativity. I used to mod. I still have a Morrowind Audio Book going.

Thats what makes me a fan. And thats why I try to stick to ESO. Also the good experience I had with the game. But as I said... Start to consolidate your player base. Start to find out how you will position yourself in the next 5 Years. EVEN if its difficult to do in the Internet, and the big box office gaming hit or tech development is around the corner to ruin your customer numbers.

But you just cannot go without a solid peer group that stays and plays. And sounding like the people I usually dislike on Gameboards, stop screwing people over with indifference.

Morthur

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SantieClaws

I played LOTRO for six years. I watched it turn from a great game into a corporate pickpocketing event. Cooldown timers on festival quests that could only be taken off with money, stat tomes and consumable items far more powerful than those in game.

I would have stayed in that game for a very long time had I not felt that my enjoyment was vastly limited by the size of my wallet and the constant demands upon it on every single game menu.

The shadow of what I saw happen there hangs very heavy over my heart today.

I am just looking back over the twitch stream and Matt says pretty much that the reason for going to B2P was because they listen to the community and it was what the community wanted. I almost choked at this point ( at about 16.40)

Has he ever read a single post on this forums? Has he not seen the worry and despair over the past few weeks. Can he not see the first four pages of these very forums now mostly filled with concern over the changes that have been announced?

Listen. Really listen to your community in the days and months ahead. We will ring the warning bells loudly if you overstep the mark and start damaging our enjoyment of the game. Many of us disagree greatly with what you have done but some of us - not all by any means - are willing to give you a chance.

Don't waste that chance.

Don't take us, our trust, our time or our wallets for granted.

Like Turbine did.

Signed

Rosiebelle Rabbitbane, formerly of Thorin's Hall & Santie Claws, currently residing in Sentinel

daneyulebub17_ESO

Told my wife--LOTRO has gotten so bad since F2P, both of us find it a gaudy, greedy shell of what it once was.

Let's find a new game--here's one! Beautiful graphics, great lore, just amazing potential--we can play for years!!!! They'll never go F2P, I'm sure! No worries about a freaking F2P cash store in such a historied, quality franchise as TES.

Now what do I tell her?

Morthur

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BlueIllyrian

LOTRO lifer here, and inflation ate my monthly stipend which remained same from the start of f2p but prices went up as well as amount of Turbine points you get for cash. Guess what's going to happen to subs here?

BlueIllyrian

wenxue2222b16_ESO wrote: »

(snip)
I am just looking back over the twitch stream and Matt says pretty much that the reason for going to B2P was because they listen to the community and it was what the community wanted. I almost choked at this point ( at about 16.40)
(/snip)

For me that's the rub, they could have stated game needs more revenue or expanding it's base or somethign face-saving but instead they pulled PR bullcrud with "player demand".

Morshire

Morthur wrote: »

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Told my wife--LOTRO has gotten so bad since F2P, both of us find it a gaudy, greedy shell of what it once was.

Let's find a new game--here's one! Beautiful graphics, great lore, just amazing potential--we can play for years!!!! They'll never go F2P, I'm sure! No worries about a freaking F2P cash store in such a historied, quality franchise as TES.

Now what do I tell her?

Tell her: honey, I had an affair with your best friend... oh and ESO is going F2P... then wait 60 seconds... then laugh and tell her that you were only joking about the affair bit... She won't care about ESO, trust me. ;-)

LOL - that has got to be the best thing I have heard all day. I wish I could give you more LOL's. I have been sitting here dreading the same thing, since the news broke. Finally, I have something to smile about. I dragged many a players from LOTRO with me, with the promise of "greener pastures". This announcement does not make ESO anywhere the same as LOTRO, but give it a couple years...

SgtPepperUK

mamericus wrote: »

Funny thing is... LotRO had to recur to this model because it was already dying... the servers were half empty and you could barely get a group together to run a raid anymore. Of course they could have tried to merge their servers first, but alas they went F2P.

Not quite, at the time LOTRO implemented F2P the game was pretty healthy, the model had first been used on their DDO game, which was dying to the extent that it had had the last rites read to it.

Then they saw how much more profit it brought in and decided to change LOTRO to the same model.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

You dont understand what B2P and F2P are I guess.

In many cases they're not all that different, just the various components are shuffled around. The end result isn't usually all that different.