Challenge: Can you come up with a gear system that works without BoE?

spoqster

You heard me right, can you come up with a system (crafting model, drop mechanics, economy, etc.) that will work without gear binding?

This system should

• encourage players to do endgame content repeatedly, frequently and for a long time
• encourage players to do all the content in the game
• work without BoP and BoE
• deter item farming
• do it's best not to promote a huge wealth gap between players
• be based on ESO

Please refrain from commenting on how this may be difficult or potentially impossible. If you don't have an idea, move on. I mean this to be a creative and constructive thread.

Gidorick

What's wrong with Bind on Equip?

Emencie

Your point by points run counter to each other and what you seem to wish to do here. Item farming non BoEs is what makes a non BoE system work.

Either way. If you are looking for a non BoE system that works, works well and promotes long term endgame play. Look at systems like D2 or Borderlands

Games with a plethora of gear that have a plethora of stats that also take an incredible amount of time and investment doing repeatable and often randomized end game content to obtain a chance at getting.

So basically an end game dungeon with a seed based layout with randomized bosses, that drop RNG gear from a set of rules from a huge table, with better gear being more rare.

Xjcon

Wouldn't a system without BOP be a pay to win system?

clocksstoppe

but i love boe. minmaxers pay a crapton of money for their gears and then can't resell it when it becomes obsolete due to new gear/patches and have to use crafters again too.

i see no problem

onlinegamer1

Doing content awards tokens.
Different content can award different tokens.
Spend tokens for gear specific to that token.
Diversify gear by token type.

This has been solved decades ago, not sure why any modern MMO still does random drops.

Nazon_Katts

Just add item decay.

clocksstoppe

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

Doing content awards tokens.
Different content can award different tokens.
Spend tokens for gear specific to that token.
Diversify gear by token type.

This has been solved decades ago, not sure why any modern MMO still does random drops.

because random drops are fun.

it's fun to get a 1/1000 purple drop and makes you feel awesome
it's not fun to get 3 whatever tokens all the time

Xjcon

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

Just add item decay.

I don't see how this would help anything. Would you want that item you spent months trying to get to decay?

Aett_Thorn

I don't really mind BoE, but BoP could go if you do a couple of things (at least in my mind):

1) Instead of BoP, create a new type of armor classification, such as "Ancient" or "Artifact".

2) For this new classification of item, degrade the items slightly each time it is traded. Leave the set bonuses alone if it has any, but the item's actual armor value or enchantment amount (for jewelry) lowers each time it is traded.

This would make it so that a heavily-traded item would be worse than a brand new one. This would make some of them cheaper because they're weaker, while leaving newer items better and more expensive. If you wanted the item in it's absolute best form, you'd need to find it yourself.

Nazon_Katts

Xjcon wrote: »

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

Just add item decay.

I don't see how this would help anything. Would you want that item you spent months trying to get to decay?

Because it would decay slower than any other item and doesn't have to be replaced as often.

If you want a bind free gear economy, you have to find a way of items exiting the system again. You do that with item decay.

Aett_Thorn

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

Doing content awards tokens.
Different content can award different tokens.
Spend tokens for gear specific to that token.
Diversify gear by token type.

This has been solved decades ago, not sure why any modern MMO still does random drops.

Because people don't generally like needing to track dozens of types of currency in a game?

Systems like that were one of the reasons I hated Neverwinter. I kept getting completely useless currency types that only let me buy other useless things.

Rescorla_ESO

Xjcon wrote: »

Wouldn't a system without BOE be a pay to win system?

How would a system without Bind on Equip gear be pay to win?

If anything, the current system is pay to win. A guildmate of mine has a VR14 weapon that drops from Dragonstar Arena. He himself has never successfully completed Dragonstar Arena. He bought the weapon for 20K gold.

If that weapon was instead Bind on Pickup, then only the people who complete the trials content would be able to acquire it. That is not a pay to win system. That is a "winning has a reward that only winners get to benefit from" system.

Xjcon

Rescorla_ESO wrote: »

Xjcon wrote: »

Wouldn't a system without BOE be a pay to win system?

How would a system without Bind on Equip gear be pay to win?

If anything, the current system is pay to win. A guildmate of mine has a VR14 weapon that drops from Dragonstar Arena. He himself has never successfully completed Dragonstar Arena. He bought the weapon for 20K gold.

If that weapon was instead Bind on Pickup, then only the people who complete the trials content would be able to acquire it. That is not a pay to win system. That is a "winning has a reward that only winners get to benefit from" system.

You are right I meant BOP. But the current system Imo is about right. The best gear has to be acquired from doing challenging content. SO, VDSA.

Gear should have a progression. Crafting gear should be enough to get you to Vet dungeons where you acquire gear that puts you on par to start trials.

Dagoth_Rac

New Equipment Type: Equip on Achievement

These items can be sold and traded just like Bind on Equip, but you cannot actually use them unless you have a certain achievement tied to the piece. So let Valkyn Skoria at the end of Vet City of Ash drop his unique helmet. But it will be Bind On Achievement with the associated achievement being "City of Ash Conqueror". And so on for PvP achievements and Trials Achievements and Dragonstar Arena achievements, etc., etc.

Now you have created an economy for difficult content rewards without losing the exclusivity of those rewards going to only those who have earned them.

kongkim

Xjcon wrote: »

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

Just add item decay.

I don't see how this would help anything. Would you want that item you spent months trying to get to decay?

In a system that has decay there will ofc. has to be higher drop rate. So you are able to find or craft the item again. That will make a system that keep on going.

phermitgb

breaking down some of the issues at hand...many of which are contradictory...

1 - people want to feel *special* - lots of people believe that part of the joy of getting loot at the end of a dungeon or adventure should make them feel *special* in some way. It should look distinctive so other people will know they did it, or it should be powerful so that they feel they accomplished something, or it should be worth a lot of money so they feel like they profited by it.

2 - people want to be rewarded commensurate to the amount of effort they put into the instance/dungeon/adventure/whatever - if the dungeon was easy, they don't mind much getting relatively mild gear (most of the time), but if it took a lot of time to learn, or if it was very challenging, or if they wiped a bunch of times before finishing, or if they spent forever putting together a group to finally do it...etc...etc...then they want the overall effect of whatever they receive to be equally magnificent.


the above are mostly ego issues, but reasonable requests - however...


3 - some people want ALL OF THE ABOVE but ALSO want to find a way to spend the minimum possible effort to get it - hence, they want the APPEARANCE of all that success and hard work, but many would prefer to find a way to make it quick, relatively easy, and still get all the material/ego benefits from those that worked hard

4 - other people want to feel like they have access to the same gear/rewards, but have far more limited time/effort to devote to the game, and believe that the game shouldn't massively disparately reward people with more free-time than those with less


some of these people feel there should exist a sense of "equality" between players that spend tons of time vs those that don't, at least as far as a material rewards issue - this is often exacerbated by the previous two groups that feel that they are entitled to a sense of fame/distinction that comes from devoting more time/effort to the game than other people...

and so the war rages on...

Those are some of the thoughts that have crossed my mind when tracking forum threads regarding itemization and rewards in ESO (and other MMO's)

I find a LOT of the arguments over itemization to be mostly vanity. Lots of people think that if they put more time/effort into an MMO, they should be rewarded more, which I'd be fine with, but they frequently seem to insist that their greater rewards ALSO have huge impacts on other people that play less, sometimes by having greater stat boosts, other times with appearance, and sometimes both...


regarding your actual question - a new itemization system that doesn't use BOP/BOE...

I'm actually a moderate fan of the instance "token" rewards - I'll be the first person to admit...acquiring the tokens is relatively un-exciting. I too enjoy seeing objects specific to the instance drop as trophies of battle - however, as far as a fairness issue, I half-like the token system. It usually allows people to reliably run a particular instance a certain number of times and be able to count on the kinds of rewards that they're looking for - lots less angst over RNG's and loot-ninjas.

However, I also find repeating the same instance over and over for a particular reward to be very non-immersive. I've killed super-dragon named boss how many times?

if it were me, regarding not JUST your question about a new loot system, but a fundamental change in the mindset of instance design...I'd start...

1 - MAKE ALL INSTANCE BOSSES SEMI-GENERIC...by this, I mean, write into the story of whatever instance you're making, the bosses are essentially infinitely expendable/replaceable. A good example might be, a daedric instance boss - this *particular* time you're running it, some Daedra has taken over the generic name of "Fell Prison Keeper" - however, if you defeat him, some lower rank Daedra will take over his position, and so on and so forth, essentially meaning that the Fell Prison, you can clear it out time and time again, just write into the fiction surrounding it that there's always a new daedra minor-prince ready to take up the banner of the one that you just felled, etc...etc...

2 - MAKE THE INSTANCE REWARD A SORT OF REP (reputation) REWARD INSTEAD - similar to the token system, as you continue to beat back the endless horde of would-be princes of the prison, or whatever, you gain reputation amongst the people that are most affected by that instance (regional or just generic faction general or some such). As you gain reputation and familiarity with the instance, you gain progress towards unlocking features that the instance provides you with.

For example, say, you wanted to provide a helm that allowed 5s of CC immunity once every 30 seconds as one of your rewards (the gaolor's helm or some such) - instead of having the ITEM drop, randomly or fixed, every time you fight the boss that *would* drop the helm, instead, you gain familiarity with some of the special magic items of the instance. You get some generic xp which you can assign to any of the features of the items that would otherwise drop.

So, if you REALLY want that helm feature, you spend all your instance xp on that, until you reach the end, and then you can either craft the item yourself, or instruct a special rewards vendor to craft one for you with the knowledge you've acquired. The same thing goes for every other major item that would drop in the instance.

so, lets say, the fictional "Prison of the Damned", drops, I dunno - 8 special *features* (not particular items) for it's boss drops.

armor temp CC immunity
weapon root
weapon pain dot
cosmetic demon skull
ring of evade chance
amulet of stamina drain
and two others - doesn't really matter

point is, instead of actually dropping any of these items, when you beat the boss that *would* drop the item, instead, you get XP towards one of the features the boss would drop

or maybe just make it generic xp that applies to ANY of the features that the dungeon would otherwise drop...

anyway - my first attempt at making a system that both semi-preserves the immersion/fiction, while mostly providing a non BOE/BOP system that still encourages re-running the instance numerous times

take that for what it's worth...

firstdecan

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

New Equipment Type: Equip on Achievement

These items can be sold and traded just like Bind on Equip, but you cannot actually use them unless you have a certain achievement tied to the piece. So let Valkyn Skoria at the end of Vet City of Ash drop his unique helmet. But it will be Bind On Achievement with the associated achievement being "City of Ash Conqueror". And so on for PvP achievements and Trials Achievements and Dragonstar Arena achievements, etc., etc.

Now you have created an economy for difficult content rewards without losing the exclusivity of those rewards going to only those who have earned them.

This is an interesting idea. I would awesome it but that link doesn't show up on my tablet.

Emencie

Xjcon wrote: »

Wouldn't a system without BOP be a pay to win system?

Not really. In non BoE/BoP system games currency generally become useless. Because currency means little. The real value is in items. Because there are millions of items (borderlands literally has 17.75 million weapons in the game... That is ridiculous) The odds of you getting the one you want are insane. On top of that, let's say you do get the drop you want. Great! Is it the right stats? Chances are that it isn't, But if somehow you are the jammiest person alive and you do get the right item and stats you still will most likely not have the proper stat weighting on the item.

Instead what normally happens is you get the item that I want, and while I may not have the item you want I may have an item that another person wants that has an item that you want.

So trade becomes the basis of both currency and obtaining the gear you want.

Of course there are problems with the system, Hackers making super items, duping, or real world sellers taking over the market.

But it is hardly a pay to win system since you have to have something equivalent to get what you want.

TheShadowScout

Personally I would just want a option to pay gold to unbind gear.

That way obsolete used equipment could be handed down to other players too instead of ending up deconstructed... if people considered it worth paying the price.

But generally I see not too much problems in ESO, after all, here at least we can trade older stuff to alts through our bank, while a great many other games have "bound to character" as standard for all the good stuff...

spoqster

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

New Equipment Type: Equip on Achievement

These items can be sold and traded just like Bind on Equip, but you cannot actually use them unless you have a certain achievement tied to the piece. So let Valkyn Skoria at the end of Vet City of Ash drop his unique helmet. But it will be Bind On Achievement with the associated achievement being "City of Ash Conqueror". And so on for PvP achievements and Trials Achievements and Dragonstar Arena achievements, etc., etc.

Now you have created an economy for difficult content rewards without losing the exclusivity of those rewards going to only those who have earned them.

This idea is my favorite so far. I wouldn't call it Equip on Achievement, since this suggests that it's bound as soon as you get the achievement, but the concept is good. They could have different achievements for every dungeon allowing you to equip different sets and then remove BoP.

But this doesn't solve how to get rid of BoE.

DDuke

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

New Equipment Type: Equip on Achievement

These items can be sold and traded just like Bind on Equip, but you cannot actually use them unless you have a certain achievement tied to the piece. So let Valkyn Skoria at the end of Vet City of Ash drop his unique helmet. But it will be Bind On Achievement with the associated achievement being "City of Ash Conqueror". And so on for PvP achievements and Trials Achievements and Dragonstar Arena achievements, etc., etc.

Now you have created an economy for difficult content rewards without losing the exclusivity of those rewards going to only those who have earned them.

And how would this promote replayability of the content? You'd just do content once & then buy all the gear (since gold is so easy to come by).
Within a week or so, each end game guild would be fully geared up & they'd have nothing left to do (no, grinding content just for items to sell isn't particularly interesting).

DeLindsay

I already did and posted it in many of the threads in regards to BoP-RNG drops. ZoS adds a character tracker (these already exist, aka achievement progressions per character, kill count, etc) that specifically adds 1% drop rate for an item per Boss kill, or chest looted. Once the item is looted the drop rate resets to it's base. That won't help getting nearly useless Medium-Sturdy drops but at least it'll increase the chance of getting ANY drop that you want the more times you kill a certain Boss.

There already exists in MANY MMO's a loot system based roughly on the spec/gear you have equipped at time of loot. So if you say open the Gold chest wearing full Heavy armor and have defensive abilities on your bars (Tank spec type) you would have little to no chance of getting Light or Medium from the chest, same goes for the moment you killed a Boss. That wouldn't mean you wouldn't get Heavy-Sturdy, but at least it'd BE Heavy.

The also need to add a way to turn in lower keys for Gold keys. For example, 10 Bronze for 1 Gold, 5 Silver for 1 Gold. ZoS could implement many things that players have been begging for since launch, sadly they seem adamant that their way is best and somehow we're all wrong. I'm not sure that the devs at ZoS have ever played an MMO, let alone played the game they created.

onlinegamer1

OK, I have invented a wholly new idea for gear drops in MMORPGs which combines the idea of 'earning over time' with RNG.

Imagine that each Dungeon/Trial has a new UI. In this UI, there is a display of each different piece of gear that CAN drop from the dungeon. Next to each piece of gear is the number "0" to start with.

Each time you complete the dungeon, you get 1 point to spend in this UI. By spending a point on a specific piece of gear, you are altering the ODDS of that piece of gear dropping by a small amount. You can spend points in multiple pieces of gear or just 1, as you see fit. In addition, you can freely MOVE those points around as you see fit at any time, even when you're inside the dungeon.

So, for example, if the dungeon drops a certain ring I want, and I have 10 points allocated to that ring to increase my odds of getting it, and on the very first boss I happen to get it, I can open the UI and move all 10 points to the chest piece I want before continuing with the dungeon.

What this means is that RNG still plays a big role in what I get, but the more I run the content, the higher chance there is for me to get the specific items I want.

Now, here comes the fun part.

Any gear which drops for me when I have "0" points allocated is not BoE. Its freely wearable and tradeable. But if I have any points in the gear when it drops, then the system adds "Binds on Equip" to that piece of gear. So, if its really random gear, then its not BoE. But if its gear I "skewed" in my favor, its BoE.

Coren

Make gear from 'instances' dependent on how far you've gotten in the 'instance'? (be it dwelve, trial or whatever)

ie it's not BoP or BoE, so you can give it out to whoever you want and it'll have the minimum for whatever level it's intended for, but if you want the completely powered up item you need to have completed the dungeon or whatever?

spoqster

DDuke wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

New Equipment Type: Equip on Achievement

These items can be sold and traded just like Bind on Equip, but you cannot actually use them unless you have a certain achievement tied to the piece. So let Valkyn Skoria at the end of Vet City of Ash drop his unique helmet. But it will be Bind On Achievement with the associated achievement being "City of Ash Conqueror". And so on for PvP achievements and Trials Achievements and Dragonstar Arena achievements, etc., etc.

Now you have created an economy for difficult content rewards without losing the exclusivity of those rewards going to only those who have earned them.

And how would this promote replayability of the content? You'd just do content once & then buy all the gear (since gold is so easy to come by).
Within a week or so, each end game guild would be fully geared up & they'd have nothing left to do (no, grinding content just for items to sell isn't particularly interesting).

I think this can easily be done with a bit of imagination.

• You can have multiple sets per dungeon associated with achievements of different difficulty.
• You can require 5 successful runs per achievement and make the highest achievement so difficult that it *really* takes a lot of runs to get your 5 successes, even if you are a pro player.
• You can control the drop rate of items on a per user level, like, for example, limiting drop rates to one item per set per user per week.

Just ideas. I'm sure there are more and even better ideas out there.

spoqster

DeLindsay wrote: »

I already did and posted it in many of the threads in regards to BoP-RNG drops. ZoS adds a character tracker (these already exist, aka achievement progressions per character, kill count, etc) that specifically adds 1% drop rate for an item per Boss kill, or chest looted. Once the item is looted the drop rate resets to it's base. That won't help getting nearly useless Medium-Sturdy drops but at least it'll increase the chance of getting ANY drop that you want the more times you kill a certain Boss.

I really like this idea! It doesn't change the current system at all, it simply makes sure that you WILL get the item for sure by the time you have completed the dungeon 100 times (likely before that). Also the visibility of this buff strengthens your motivation. After your tenth run you see the buff in your char that says you have a XX% higher chance for BoP items to drop.

It's a good fix for the current system, but not really a solution for how to do without BoE and BoP.

spoqster

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

OK, I have invented a wholly new idea for gear drops in MMORPGs which combines the idea of 'earning over time' with RNG.

Imagine that each Dungeon/Trial has a new UI. In this UI, there is a display of each different piece of gear that CAN drop from the dungeon. Next to each piece of gear is the number "0" to start with.

Each time you complete the dungeon, you get 1 point to spend in this UI. By spending a point on a specific piece of gear, you are altering the ODDS of that piece of gear dropping by a small amount. You can spend points in multiple pieces of gear or just 1, as you see fit. In addition, you can freely MOVE those points around as you see fit at any time, even when you're inside the dungeon.

So, for example, if the dungeon drops a certain ring I want, and I have 10 points allocated to that ring to increase my odds of getting it, and on the very first boss I happen to get it, I can open the UI and move all 10 points to the chest piece I want before continuing with the dungeon.

What this means is that RNG still plays a big role in what I get, but the more I run the content, the higher chance there is for me to get the specific items I want.

Now, here comes the fun part.

Any gear which drops for me when I have "0" points allocated is not BoE. Its freely wearable and tradeable. But if I have any points in the gear when it drops, then the system adds "Binds on Equip" to that piece of gear. So, if its really random gear, then its not BoE. But if its gear I "skewed" in my favor, its BoE.

I really like this idea!