The Sorcerer Dilemma

MADshadowman

I wanted to talk about this for a long time, so here we go.

As you all know, Sorcs don't have a self heal.

- Crit Surge and Critical Rush don't count as a self heal -

This forces any Sorc that wants some self healing to use a resto staff.

This means that you are very restricted in the way you can build your Sorc.

It's basically just S/B + Resto, 2H + Resto, Destro + Resto or whatever, but as soon as you swap out the Resto Staff for something else you will notice the lack of heals very quickly.

I don't like to be restricted by something like this. And i think it's quite ironic that a Sorcerer - a master of the arcane powers - can't even heal himself.

I want a small but decent self heal for Sorcerers!

This can't be too much to ask for.

P.s.: Yes, Nightblades also need a self heal. Every class should have one.

AshySamurai

Dilemma is - to reroll or not to reroll.

And now seriously. Why you don't like critical surge?

Derra

I´m a sorc so i feel you.

Nightblades pretty much suffer the same issue though. Primarily due to how stupid calculation for funnel health healing and refreshing said heal works.

gendarkb16_ESO

What i don't like its how crit surge do not heal you if you do a crit but its blocked... really lame mechanic.

So in pvp that everyone and his mom is blocking there is no way to heal you.

Even if you use a 2h sword and use critical charge(100% crit) you do a crit but because it counts as blocked you don't get the heal from critical surge.

TheShadowScout

Dark Exchange - restores health and magica for stamina channeling. It's what I use on my sorc when I want to self heal... (morph for moving while using it or less stamina cost)

Together with the "Blood Magic" passive (3/5% heals on dark magic damage done) I usually do all right... though I have a resto staff on secondary for emergencies, it easily complements any magica build anyhow.

Dracane

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Dark Exchange - restores health and magica for stamina channeling. It's what I use on my sorc when I want to self heal... (morph for moving while using it or less stamina cost)

Together with the "Blood Magic" passive (3/5% heals on dark magic damage done) I usually do all right... though I have a resto staff on secondary for emergencies, it easily complements any magica build anyhow.

Draining stamina for such things is a very stupid idea in pvp, since you are dead if you are out of Stamina. I agree, that it's decent for defenses or for quick regeneration between battles. But come one.... people use it for the Magicka regen, not the heal.

Giving Sorcerer a decent self heal, would require switching out an entire ability. And I fear, this is not going to happen if they would at least make it so, that the Twilight heals you every 5-10 seconds, no matter if you are below a health limit (the 35% healing proc is so underwhelming and unrelyable)

I could probably live with that change, if the twilight constantly heals us. This would be a very good solution in my opinion.

Derra

I think the OP refers to a emergency in combat heal.

People who use dark exchange in pvp combat can only do so if the opponent is already fighting on their terms or die while because of using dark exchange. You depend on the stupididy of your opponent to use it effectively.

Dracane

Derra wrote: »

I think the OP refers to a emergency in combat heal.

People who use dark exchange in pvp combat can only do so if the opponent is already fighting on their terms or die while because of using dark exchange. You depend on the stupididy of your opponent to use it effectively.

Indeed. It's very very dangerous in a real fight. A full exchange costs an average mage almost 50% of his stamina, which is pretty much 1 CC break, or several blocks and dodge rolls.

Dark Exchange has its place. But it is not a valid self heal replacer. The Mage's guild Equilibrium is better in group battles anyway. Because there are always enough heals from other people on the ground. So you can regenerate endless Magicka and don't even loose health. Dark Exchange looks laughable compared to this. Even in duels I found Equilibrium to be less dangerous than using dark exchange (for Magicka restore) but since self heal is the topic....

Lynx7386

As you all know, Sorcs don't have a self heal.

- Crit Surge and Critical Rush don't count as a self heal -

This forces any Sorc that wants some self healing to use a resto staff.

This means that you are very restricted in the way you can build your Sorc.

Critical surge does count as a self heal, and so does dark exchange and twilight matriarch. That's a good bit more healing than any nightblade has.

Dracane

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As you all know, Sorcs don't have a self heal.

- Crit Surge and Critical Rush don't count as a self heal -

This forces any Sorc that wants some self healing to use a resto staff.

This means that you are very restricted in the way you can build your Sorc.

Critical surge does count as a self heal, and so does dark exchange and twilight matriarch. That's a good bit more healing than any nightblade has.

You didn't really mention the Matriarch, did you ? O.o
And we all know, critical surge will not be an option with 1.6. Because Sorcs want to be magic users, and not weapon damage users. But uhm... only the weapon damage morph heals us. So even this option is not valid.

And Dark Exchange: read the few posts above.

gendarkb16_ESO

Dracane wrote: »

And we all know, critical surge will not be an option with 1.6. Because Sorcs want to be magic users, and not weapon damage users. But uhm... only the weapon damage morph heals us. So even this option is not valid.

Well as i said before, i am sorc stamina weapon user... Critical surge doesn't heal you if you do a crit an the attack is blocked ... so 0 heal in pvp (because everyone is permablocking)

Dracane

gendarkb16_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

And we all know, critical surge will not be an option with 1.6. Because Sorcs want to be magic users, and not weapon damage users. But uhm... only the weapon damage morph heals us. So even this option is not valid.

Well as i said before, i am sorc stamina weapon user... Critical surge doesn't heal you if you do a crit an the attack is blocked ... so 0 heal in pvp (because everyone is permablocking)

Indeed. This is a big problem. No matter if you are a magic Sorc (like me) or a stamina Sorc like you (which is rare) you will get no relyable self heal.

Even if, it would be unfair, that you only have a class self heal, if you are forced to use a Stamina build. So no matter how we look at it, it is pointless.

facemace

As mentioned, winged twilight is a 2 slot taking up 10% magicka destroying twice a minute uncontrollable heal. Crit surge does not even in PVP. Dark exchange is only viable with max stam builds, otherwise it disables your block ability, which is Bad. That said,NBs also have issues in the self help dept.

Dracane

facemace wrote: »

As mentioned, winged twilight is a 2 slot taking up 10% magicka destroying twice a minute uncontrollable heal. Crit surge does not even in PVP. Dark exchange is only viable with max stam builds, otherwise it disables your block ability, which is Bad. That said,NBs also have issues in the self help dept.

I would even call the twilight heal broken.
Because it heals you in a channel. The channel is very buggy and very often, it just stops healing you and you only receive 1 healing tick instead of 4.

As I have said earlier, the twilight should heal us every few seconds in a fight with an instant heal. This is not unbalanced, as the Twilight must sacrifise her own health to heal us. So considering that + enemies will also deal some damage, the Twilight would be dead after a very short time.

SFBryan18

From my experience, I need both Dark Exchange and Illustrious Healing against harder enemies in PvE. I don't know about PvP, but in PvE, I must first use Dark Exchange to get my magic and health up, and since I am taking a beating while I heal, I must use the magic I gained to heal myself again with the restoration staff. It would be much better if I could just instant cast Dark Exchange and then carry on with my business. The fact that you are a sitting duck makes it worthless and only usable because I have nothing better. Meanwhile, DK gets to instant cast health along with their higher DPS.

Pengeszikra

2H rally is also work as self heal ... stamina based ... but i only use rally near one month long ( i'm templar )

MADshadowman

Let me quickly explain why crit surge (often in combination with critical rush) doesn't count as a self heal:

I consider a self heal an ability i can use at any given time, that heals me for a certain amount of health. So the point here is reliability.

If you get chased by 5-10 people, hitting you with arrows and other projectiles, you want to heal yourself and keep getting away from them. Using crit surge and then charging into the zerg is no option to heal yourself. This will kill you.

Crit surge is an utility heal, while you are attacking others it gives a little healing here and there and can keep you going. But that's about it.

MADshadowman

Pengeszikra wrote: »

2H rally is also work as self heal ... stamina based ... but i only use rally near one month long ( i'm templar )

Again, Rally can have some decent heals, but only if you cast it early enough, so it has some time to build up and then you can cash in the heal. But it's not reliable and for most sorcs stamina is only used to break free and dodge roll, since they don't have as much as a stamina build. And then you have to use a 2H weapon, which is not the tankiest option for a sorc.

Cyantific87

To be fair though, crit surge will work better in 1.6. If you are built for max crit, you will crit most of the time as impen will only reduce the crit damage and not the actual crit. Therefore if you have a high chance to crit then more than likely a fair few hits will heal you. I know it isn't changing the fact that we don't actually have a self heal that's instant but do nightblades? I have a vr12 NB and the heals come from damaging attacks as well? I feel gimped into a DW and Resto for that. I'm running a stamina sorc at the moment and I'm getting my heals mostly from Rally and I have quite a nice sustainability I think.

Xsorus

Its called Cleanse..

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

gendarkb16_ESO wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

And we all know, critical surge will not be an option with 1.6. Because Sorcs want to be magic users, and not weapon damage users. But uhm... only the weapon damage morph heals us. So even this option is not valid.

Well as i said before, i am sorc stamina weapon user... Critical surge doesn't heal you if you do a crit an the attack is blocked ... so 0 heal in pvp (because everyone is permablocking)

Permablocking is over for anyone not building for tanking 1.6. Stamina drains much faster now.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Its called Cleanse..

Shhhh

GreyRanger

MADshadowman wrote: »

I wanted to talk about this for a long time, so here we go.

As you all know, Sorcs don't have a self heal.

- Crit Surge and Critical Rush don't count as a self heal -

This forces any Sorc that wants some self healing to use a resto staff.

This means that you are very restricted in the way you can build your Sorc.

It's basically just S/B + Resto, 2H + Resto, Destro + Resto or whatever, but as soon as you swap out the Resto Staff for something else you will notice the lack of heals very quickly.

I don't like to be restricted by something like this. And i think it's quite ironic that a Sorcerer - a master of the arcane powers - can't even heal himself.

I want a small but decent self heal for Sorcerers!

This can't be too much to ask for.

P.s.: Yes, Nightblades also need a self heal. Every class should have one.

Agreed.

Aett_Thorn

ads1 wrote: »

To be fair though, crit surge will work better in 1.6. If you are built for max crit, you will crit most of the time as impen will only reduce the crit damage and not the actual crit. Therefore if you have a high chance to crit then more than likely a fair few hits will heal you. I know it isn't changing the fact that we don't actually have a self heal that's instant but do nightblades? I have a vr12 NB and the heals come from damaging attacks as well? I feel gimped into a DW and Resto for that. I'm running a stamina sorc at the moment and I'm getting my heals mostly from Rally and I have quite a nice sustainability I think.

If there is still going to be a 1-second cooldown on Critical Surge, then no it will NOT be better in 1.6.

If you use any DoTs or AoEs, you run the chance of getting a significantly smaller amount of health back because it could proc off of one of these instead of your single-target attacks. Since on longer boss fights you should be using at least some sort of DoT for efficiency, this will become a problem.

Merlin13KAGL

AshySamurai wrote: »

Dilemma is - to reroll or not to reroll.

And now seriously. Why you don't like critical surge?

@AshySamurai‌ , shouldn't have to abandon the class. Surge (in current form) is situationally good. The premise is that you're going into the fight with not-low health though.

Enter a fight at 10% health (because you just exited a different one) and it becomes a latency gamble - will your damage register before their damage registers.

Dracane wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

People who use dark exchange in pvp combat can only do so if the opponent is already fighting on their terms or die while because of using dark exchange. You depend on the stupididy of your opponent to use it effectively.

Indeed. It's very very dangerous in a real fight. A full exchange costs an average mage almost 50% of his stamina, which is pretty much 1 CC break, or several blocks and dodge rolls.

Dark Exchange has its place. But it is not a valid self heal replacer.

@Dracane‌ , agreed - further counting on the fact that you have stamina available in the first place to use DE. If you've been blocking, getting beat on, stunned, ran more than 10 feet, it ceases to be an option at all.

Can't be in the middle of a 1vX and "Call Timeout."

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As you all know, Sorcs don't have a self heal.

- Crit Surge and Critical Rush don't count as a self heal -

This forces any Sorc that wants some self healing to use a resto staff.

This means that you are very restricted in the way you can build your Sorc.

Critical surge does count as a self heal, and so does dark exchange and twilight matriarch.

@Lynx7386 , be at 10% health, cast Crit Surge by itself and watch the resulting not-heal.

Dark Exchange is situational at best. It's not going to heal you in more situations than it will for half a dozen reasons. If it does, you're then free to get rooted/stunned/knocked down and unable to block...

Matriarch only kicks in when you're near death and the cooldown it too long to be effective. This takes up two slots and counts on the fact that the Matriarch, herself, is not dead. A strong wind kills this familiar as it is now.

And this??

That's a good bit more healing than any nightblade has.

Leeching Strikes?
Funnel Health?
Soul Siphon (ULT)?
Bolstering Darkness (ULT) (Allies)?

ads1 wrote: »

To be fair though, crit surge will work better in 1.6. If you are built for max crit, you will crit most of the time as impen will only reduce the crit damage and not the actual crit. Therefore if you have a high chance to crit then more than likely a fair few hits will heal you. I know it isn't changing the fact that we don't actually have a self heal that's instant but do nightblades? I have a vr12 NB and the heals come from damaging attacks as well? I feel gimped into a DW and Resto for that. I'm running a stamina sorc at the moment and I'm getting my heals mostly from Rally and I have quite a nice sustainability I think.

@ads1, have you been to the PTS server? Surge has changed significantly, and increased Crit most definitely does not offset the change.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Its called Cleanse..

@xsorusb14_ESO‌ , which of the not-Class-Skill-Lines is that one under again?

As OP stated, there is, nor has there ever been a Sorc Self heal.

Cyantific87

@Merlin13KAGL‌ only with template character and was kind of theory crafting with the abilities stats etc to come up with that. Hopefully us EU will get our chance to use our own characters today!

Merlin13KAGL

@ads1 , I hope so. I'm interested on your (EU's) take on 1.61 when viewed from your live characters.

I'll check out the patch notes and give it a go with the template myself.

Also, note there is tremendous difference in world mobs / Dolmens vs Group Dungeons (even norm scaled to vet).

Haven't tried Trials or DSA to know if they have gone as extreme as Vet Wayrest, Vet Spindle, and even normal (scaled to Vet) Spindle.

Let us know what you think.

Digiman

MADshadowman wrote: »

I wanted to talk about this for a long time, so here we go.

As you all know, Sorcs don't have a self heal.

- Crit Surge and Critical Rush don't count as a self heal -

This forces any Sorc that wants some self healing to use a resto staff.

This means that you are very restricted in the way you can build your Sorc.

It's basically just S/B + Resto, 2H + Resto, Destro + Resto or whatever, but as soon as you swap out the Resto Staff for something else you will notice the lack of heals very quickly.

I don't like to be restricted by something like this. And i think it's quite ironic that a Sorcerer - a master of the arcane powers - can't even heal himself.

I want a small but decent self heal for Sorcerers!

This can't be too much to ask for.

P.s.: Yes, Nightblades also need a self heal. Every class should have one.

Nightblades now have a sufficient self heal. But I agree the 1 sec CD to critical surge was uncalled for. It wasn't OP nor did it make any sorcer god mode. If a player focused on you were dead. It was mainly used for soloing stuff so you could lay down AoE damage while lasting longer, but if you got careless like didn't block a hit or stood in fire spot you would die.

I don't see why the healing ability shouldn't be base line for surge. Critical Surge should have an ability geared toward stamina using sorcerers like they did with Daedric armor.