Racials - With the Removal of Softcaps

Spangla

This thread i'm sure has already been done.

I am yet to see an answer though, ZOS my question is what are you going to do to balance racials. Even with the current system there are 3 races that are clearly far superior.

This disparity is only going to increase with the coming changes.

Dracane

Each race has 1 benefit, that any other race can only reach by investing more. But this race also has something, that the other race doesn't have.

I think, people don't see that. The only class that is unblanced is Imperial. 20% more stats is almost impossible to come by, without sacrifising too much. When they announced the Imperial race, I saw the insane stats and thought "This is only cash grab, to justify buying the Imperial edition and they're going to nerf it after launch anyway"

But sadly I was wrong But anyway, the racials are fine and should stay like this. There will be no imbalance. Only Imperials might be a bit too superior.

Govalon

Well I would change my Imperial for useful passives in a heartbeat. If you are not melee stamina build or a tank, Imperial race is useless. I had no idea how skills and passives would work when I chose imperial and I clearly made a wrong choise.

Derra

There are some races that do not offer atleast 10% bonus on any stat. This should be changed in my opinion.
I suspect this is going to be the case with 1.6 because even the zenimax devs should forsee the problems 15% or even 22% in total stat bonuses should cause compared to 3% woodelf gets.

Dracane

Derra wrote: »

There are some races that do not offer atleast 10% bonus on any stat. This should be changed in my opinion.
I suspect this is going to be the case with 1.6 because even the zenimax devs should forsee the problems 15% or even 22% in total stat bonuses should cause compared to 3% woodelf gets.

Not really. Woodelfs even have a unique race passive.
You can invest into whatever you like, but already have more stamina regen, where most other races would have to use drinks or gear sets to reach this. You also have resistance to disease.

This is a very usefull passive in pvp. Most good players use disease damage on their weapons, because it decreases the targets healing taken by 50% for 10 seconds. You have a high resistance to that and will almost not feel the debuff.

And same goes to the Imperial guy up there. You have 10% more health and stamina O.o this is insanse. So you can invest 20% more into magicka than Altmer or Breton and most other races. Which gives you10% more Magicka than the mage races and you don't suffer from any downsides. Just think twice, honey

Derra

Thanks for the headsup. Anyway 10% of flat achieve something that 10% regeneration does not: It enables you to push higher beyond softcap therefore reaching a dmg potential that a race without said bonus can never achieve.

This is going to be more of a problem when the softcaps are actually gone.

To elaborate a little further. Given 2000 magica you would get 200 magica for free with a 10% racial passive. That equals more than two vr14 set bonuses (those are 94 magica atm).
For 10% regeneration bonus to equal two set bonuses at vr14 you would need 240 regeneration (10% of 240 being 24 a vr 14 setbonus provides 12 regeneration of a stat and you are currently beyond softcap and not able to reach that at all).
Broken down into a measurable unit (that being set bonuses or enchantments that equal the power of a racial) you can see that flat status bonuses far outweight the the benefits of for example regeneration as it takes more effort for a regeneration race to get the stats they are missing than for a stat race to get the regeneration.

Edit: On a personal note. Please don´t call me honey. Kind of gives me the impression you´re talking down to me. Why would you do that...

Dracane

Derra wrote: »

Thanks for the headsup. Anyway 10% of flat achieve something that 10% regeneration does not: It enables you to push higher beyond softcap therefore reaching a dmg potential that a race without said bonus can never achieve.

Okay. So I am a High Elf and have 10% Magicka more for free. This only means, I can spend 10% less into Magicka and will still be equal. A Redguard may have 10% more Stamina. So he simply can spend 10% more into Magicka and will still be equal with me, as everyone needs Stamina. Even a mage cant have enough, especially in PvP.

And there are races, like Bosmer and Argonians, that have bonus that are so unique, that you can't reach them or it would be a big loss to reach this.

You can say what you want, race passives are balanced and each class has something very special. And max Magicka, Health and Stamina is not everything. What am I supposed to say ? Bretons have 3% reduced magicka cost, that I can never reach. I stuck with 7 additional magicka recovery every 3 seconds on vr14, which is nothing compared to 3% less cost.

Derra

I have just given you the proof that if you break down racials into measurable units that are achievable for every character some are more powerful than others.

Compare say dark elf and khajiit:
Darkelf:
-9% magica 6% stamina equal about 3 set bonuses worth of stats (at 2000 of said stat)
-1400 fireresi equal about one golden jewelry enchant
-the fire dmg bonus at softcap spelldmg equals about 1 golden jewelry enchant
Khajiit:
-30% health reg just below softcap equal about 1 golden jewelry enchant
-stealth bonus is not measurable lets count this generous as 1 golden jewelry enchant
-6% melee crit can be translated into 1.5 set bonuses

Darkelf gets 3 setbonuses and 2 jewelry enchants via racials.
Khajiit gets 1.5 setbonuses and 2 jewelry enchats via racials.


What you do now is:


Edit: I believe the unique racials are fine for the most part. If you leave them out of the comparison it does not change the picture as a whole though.

Most racials are fine. I believe Argonian, Khajiit, Woodelf and Nord could use a slight adjustment.

Edit2: How could i miss orc. F***.

Dracane

Derra wrote: »

I have just given you the proof that if you break down racials into measurable units that are achievable for every character some are more powerful than others.

Compare say dark elf and khajiit:
Darkelf:
-9% magica 6% stamina equal about 3 set bonuses worth of stats (at 2000 of said stat)
-1400 fireresi equal about one golden jewelry enchant
-the fire dmg bonus at softcap spelldmg equals about 1 golden jewelry enchant
Khajiit:
-30% health reg just below softcap equal about 1 golden jewelry enchant
-stealth bonus is not measurable lets count this generous as 1 golden jewelry enchant
-6% melee crit can be translated into 1.5 set bonuses

Darkelf gets 3 setbonuses and 2 jewelry enchants via racials.
Khajiit gets 1.5 setbonuses and 2 jewelry enchats via racials.


What you do now is:


Edit: I believe the unique racials are fine for the most part. If you leave them out of the comparison it does not change the picture as a whole though.

Outragous guy No, I'm not an ostrich.
Interesting explaination though. The thing with showing the racials as set bonuses and enchantments.

But I think my opinion remains as it is. I still think, each player can reach the same end results if he wants or tries. I'm not saying, that all passives are 100% balanced. But it is at least no big imbalance. What do you think, how I've been flaming the forums, when I've learned, that Altmer have 10% more Magicka and Bretons 10% more as well.

Altmer always had more Magicka than Bretons in the lore and filthy halfbloods having the same as a pure blooded Altmer is simply criminal and outragous. We at least deserve 12% more Magicka, or at least more than only 7 more Magicka regen at Vr14.

Derra

I agree that for the most part racials don´t really matter. You can pretty much achieve the same performance with all races in most circumstances.

I´d like to see them more equal on paper none the less

I hate those filthy bretons too. I´ve joined the covenant to lead those peasants back into the labour of their rightful masters just to learn that for some godly intervention they are now the superior magic wielders.

Edit: Sidenote: Death to the false Queen. She´s so small i believe she can not be of pure highborn blood.

Derra

god damn it. delete this somebody.

Dracane

Derra wrote: »

Edit: Sidenote: Death to the false Queen. She´s so small i believe she can not be of pure highborn blood.

Speak quickly, Citizen !: Who do you mean with 'False Queen' ?

(the rest is awesome though)

Dracane

I have done some math as well.
I have compared the Altmer Magicka regeneration compared to Bretons cost reduction.

Crushing shock cost 174 Magicka, with 3% reduction, it costs 167 ( 7 Magicka less)
The Altmer passives scales from the base value, not the total value. it is 7 Magicka every 3 seconds on Vr14.

In 60 seconds I can use crushing shock 43 times.
In 60 seconds, I receive 20 Magicka regen ticks.

After 1 minute (43 casts) the Breton has 301 more Magicka than the Altmer
But the Altmer only restores 140 Magicka more in 60 seconds.
So the Breton is 160 Magicka ahead. Such an imbalance..... filthy half bloods.

Tankqull

Dracane wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

There are some races that do not offer atleast 10% bonus on any stat. This should be changed in my opinion.
I suspect this is going to be the case with 1.6 because even the zenimax devs should forsee the problems 15% or even 22% in total stat bonuses should cause compared to 3% woodelf gets.

Not really. Woodelfs even have a unique race passive.
You can invest into whatever you like, but already have more stamina regen, where most other races would have to use drinks or gear sets to reach this. You also have resistance to disease.

This is a very usefull passive in pvp. Most good players use disease damage on their weapons, because it decreases the targets healing taken by 50% for 10 seconds. You have a high resistance to that and will almost not feel the debuff.

And same goes to the Imperial guy up there. You have 10% more health and stamina O.o this is insanse. So you can invest 20% more into magicka than Altmer or Breton and most other races. Which gives you10% more Magicka than the mage races and you don't suffer from any downsides. Just think twice, honey

the debuff is not affected by that racial neither its duration nor the debuff value. the only affected part is the dmg wich with light armor is reduced from 37dmg to 36... weeheeee awsome racial compared to the 15/22% stat bonis ...

Wolfsspinne

Derra wrote: »

-stealth bonus is not measurable lets count this generous as 1 golden jewelry enchant

*is measurable!

The 3-items set bonus of the Nightshade set is 2.3 meters less detection as well as 22% reduced stealth cost.

So it would cost you the whole minor set instead of a single jewelry.
Therefore I'd say this is 2 set bonuses!


Now 3 set bonuses and 2 gold jewelry with the Dunmer stats vs.
4.5 set bonuses and 1 gold jewelry with the Khajiit stats
Looks more or less equal to me.

Dracane

Tankqull wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

There are some races that do not offer atleast 10% bonus on any stat. This should be changed in my opinion.
I suspect this is going to be the case with 1.6 because even the zenimax devs should forsee the problems 15% or even 22% in total stat bonuses should cause compared to 3% woodelf gets.

Not really. Woodelfs even have a unique race passive.
You can invest into whatever you like, but already have more stamina regen, where most other races would have to use drinks or gear sets to reach this. You also have resistance to disease.

This is a very usefull passive in pvp. Most good players use disease damage on their weapons, because it decreases the targets healing taken by 50% for 10 seconds. You have a high resistance to that and will almost not feel the debuff.

And same goes to the Imperial guy up there. You have 10% more health and stamina O.o this is insanse. So you can invest 20% more into magicka than Altmer or Breton and most other races. Which gives you10% more Magicka than the mage races and you don't suffer from any downsides. Just think twice, honey

the debuff is not affected by that racial neither its duration nor the debuff value. the only affected part is the dmg wich with light armor is reduced from 37dmg to 36... weeheeee awsome racial compared to the 15/22% stat bonis ...

A "friend" of mine, name is Prisma the Silent (is from the Ebonheart Pact, so don't trust him) is a Bosmer and he said, the heal is affected. He says, he doesn't recognize a big impact on healing taken while he has the debuff.

So I would say, this is true unless proved otherwise
But I agree, Dunmer and Imperials have too many benefit.

Derra

Wolfsspinne wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

-stealth bonus is not measurable lets count this generous as 1 golden jewelry enchant

*is measurable!

The 3-items set bonus of the Nightshade set is 2.3 meters less detection as well as 22% reduced stealth cost.

So it would cost you the whole minor set instead of a single jewelry.
Therefore I'd say this is 2 set bonuses!


Now 3 set bonuses and 2 gold jewelry with the Dunmer stats vs.
4.5 set bonuses and 1 gold jewelry with the Khajiit stats
Looks more or less equal to me.

the only problem is that a golden jewelry enchant is 1.5 times the power of a set bonus for everything except weapon dmg. I said i was being generous with a golden jewel glyph.
If there is a comparable set bonus to that passive you can exactly count it for that. 1 Set bonus. That is even worse than 1 jewelry enchant

Edit: I don´t get how you get to 4.5 set bonuses. 1.5 + 2 makes 3.5 for me

To further complicate this: The Stealth bonus is highly situational in its use whereas a flat % bonus of whatever is always useful (given you use the stat).

Magica regeneration on vr14 is every 2 seconds btw.

Edit2: You can break down Altmer Breton too. Breton 3% is a little bit better than a golden jewelry cost reduce enchantment. Altmer reg bonus is about the power of one set bonus when you´re approaching the softcap of magica reg. The Breton bonus therefor is about 50% "stronger" in the current state of the game. However with the fall of softcaps this is going to change in favor of highelves if you build for really high magica regeneration.

Xsorus

The racials will need a rebalance, for example nord with frost resist racial is useless, health regen be more useful with soft caps gone, I'm playing on making a regen build to utilize it after the patch. But yea they'll need a rebalance for sure.

Derra

A khajiit/nord sorcerer wearing heavy willows path is going to be a health regen monster

Spangla

They are not fine unfortunately you are trolling as you have rolled with one of the 3 you know im talking about.

Unfortunately I rolled Khajit and planned to damage from stealth.... Yea they nerfed that so now im stuck with a useless health recovery and 6% weapon crit that's no use whatsoever.

Dracane wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I have just given you the proof that if you break down racials into measurable units that are achievable for every character some are more powerful than others.

Compare say dark elf and khajiit:
Darkelf:
-9% magica 6% stamina equal about 3 set bonuses worth of stats (at 2000 of said stat)
-1400 fireresi equal about one golden jewelry enchant
-the fire dmg bonus at softcap spelldmg equals about 1 golden jewelry enchant
Khajiit:
-30% health reg just below softcap equal about 1 golden jewelry enchant
-stealth bonus is not measurable lets count this generous as 1 golden jewelry enchant
-6% melee crit can be translated into 1.5 set bonuses

Darkelf gets 3 setbonuses and 2 jewelry enchants via racials.
Khajiit gets 1.5 setbonuses and 2 jewelry enchats via racials.


What you do now is:


Edit: I believe the unique racials are fine for the most part. If you leave them out of the comparison it does not change the picture as a whole though.

Outragous guy No, I'm not an ostrich.
Interesting explaination though. The thing with showing the racials as set bonuses and enchantments.

But I think my opinion remains as it is. I still think, each player can reach the same end results if he wants or tries. I'm not saying, that all passives are 100% balanced. But it is at least no big imbalance. What do you think, how I've been flaming the forums, when I've learned, that Altmer have 10% more Magicka and Bretons 10% more as well.

Altmer always had more Magicka than Bretons in the lore and filthy halfbloods having the same as a pure blooded Altmer is simply criminal and outragous. We at least deserve 12% more Magicka, or at least more than only 7 more Magicka regen at Vr14.

Im sorry you constantly try to qq my posts.

and fail.....

Racials are not balanced in the slightest.

Tankqull

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

The racials will need a rebalance, for example nord with frost resist racial is useless, health regen be more useful with soft caps gone, I'm playing on making a regen build to utilize it after the patch. But yea they'll need a rebalance for sure.

or simply giv all of us a racial respec and be surprised of wich races would be left...

Erock25

As someone who left the game and plans on playing again once 1.6 is launched, I WILL NOT be playing if Khajit racials aren't given some love.

Tankqull

Dracane wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

There are some races that do not offer atleast 10% bonus on any stat. This should be changed in my opinion.
I suspect this is going to be the case with 1.6 because even the zenimax devs should forsee the problems 15% or even 22% in total stat bonuses should cause compared to 3% woodelf gets.

Not really. Woodelfs even have a unique race passive.
You can invest into whatever you like, but already have more stamina regen, where most other races would have to use drinks or gear sets to reach this. You also have resistance to disease.

This is a very usefull passive in pvp. Most good players use disease damage on their weapons, because it decreases the targets healing taken by 50% for 10 seconds. You have a high resistance to that and will almost not feel the debuff.

And same goes to the Imperial guy up there. You have 10% more health and stamina O.o this is insanse. So you can invest 20% more into magicka than Altmer or Breton and most other races. Which gives you10% more Magicka than the mage races and you don't suffer from any downsides. Just think twice, honey

the debuff is not affected by that racial neither its duration nor the debuff value. the only affected part is the dmg wich with light armor is reduced from 37dmg to 36... weeheeee awsome racial compared to the 15/22% stat bonis ...

A "friend" of mine, name is Prisma the Silent (is from the Ebonheart Pact, so don't trust him) is a Bosmer and he said, the heal is affected. He says, he doesn't recognize a big impact on healing taken while he has the debuff.

So I would say, this is true unless proved otherwise
But I agree, Dunmer and Imperials have too many benefit.

did some tests with two mates - BoL of my templar heals for 662 without any additional increasements.
with and without bosmer racial after a proc the healed value droped to 398.
with and without bosmer racial i could get out 4 heals before the healed value jumps back to normal so 5-6sec duration of the debuff (if the racial results in a 15% duration reduction with the given API restrictions its not possible to verify).

AlnilamE

Spangla wrote: »

This thread i'm sure has already been done.

I am yet to see an answer though, ZOS my question is what are you going to do to balance racials. Even with the current system there are 3 races that are clearly far superior.

This disparity is only going to increase with the coming changes.

And one of them is Argonian.

Dracane

Spangla wrote: »

Im sorry you constantly try to qq my posts.

and fail.....

Racials are not balanced in the slightest.

Not my fault if you fail to see it yourself.
Racials are meant to give bonuses to some of your stats, so that you can spend more into other stats, to be more balanced. You can also choose to further build theses benefits out, which will make you slightly better in 1 thing, but will probably make you less efficient overall.

Each race has benefits and they are perfectly balanced. As I've said earlier, onyl Imperials are a bit too strong with their 20 %+ max stats and maybe Dunmer a bit with 15% stats. But even this is not impossible to come by.

Wifeaggro13

Spangla wrote: »

This thread i'm sure has already been done.

I am yet to see an answer though, ZOS my question is what are you going to do to balance racials. Even with the current system there are 3 races that are clearly far superior.

This disparity is only going to increase with the coming changes.

Will HP and armor mean anything post 1.6 so i can feel anything but utter disdain for my Orc DK ?

Aeratus

Dracane wrote: »

Racials are meant to give bonuses to some of your stats, so that you can spend more into other stats, to be more balanced.

If you're balanced, that means you have crappy dps. Being balanced is a pure fallacy.

Aeternus

I play as a bosmer vampire nightblade, and I love the 9% damage bonus from stealth. I guess theoretically an Imperial nightblade has slightly more survivability, but honestly I have no problems sustaining my health with sap essence + devouring swarm in group fights

Dracane

Aeratus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Racials are meant to give bonuses to some of your stats, so that you can spend more into other stats, to be more balanced.

If you're balanced, that means you have crappy dps. Being balanced is a pure fallacy.

Why ? I'm mainly talking about stats. Having as much as possible of all 3 is very beneficial.

And regarding DPS: Being able to cast more, but with less damage per hit, will win at the end (only really beneficial for pvp)

AshTal

I agree some Racials are just crap - they need a boost

Jar_Ek

Sorry but the racial passives are in no way balanced.

A % increase to stamina or magicka not only increases the resource pool but also the effectiveness of many of the skills based off that stat. As hybrids have now been actively discouraged (points spent in your off-spec stat essentially reduce your effective dps), stacking a single stat only makes the imbalance greater (it was masked with caps where stat spreading was encouraged by diminishing returns).

Also those races with unique passives generally find that they are weaker than a direct stat boost passive, and in some cases just generally quite weak in actual use. However if you believe that they are balanced then remake your current character as an Argonian and see if the racials work for you...