The fallacy in the belief that Utility (and healing) should cost DPS Potential

Pmarsico9

Currently, Sorcs and Templars are hurting in the damage department. The dominant logic amongst the playerbase is that "Templars are the preferred healer for everything, therefore, Templars shouldn't be viable or flexible in how they deal damage."

While it's less talked about, Sorcs are also well-behind in the DPS department, with the only logical reason being due to the utility they have available.

Well this is my counterpoint:

1) Nightblades: Veil of Blades is incredibly cheap and if the Nightblade is well-played will actually spend more time out than not. It is a powerful damage reduction, snare, and damage source. Much more powerful in many ways than Negate, which doesn't provide you with damage, CC that doesn't work against everything (read bosses,) and of course Nova which is ridiculously expensive for essentially the same effect. The other side of this is Funnel Health, which is essentially more passive healing than provided by any other class while dealing damage. From a caster NB perspective, this is a rotational ability. It can be used over Crushing Shock. This is passive, nearly continuous, healing that is happening simultaneously while dealing damage and scales off the damage you do. One could argue that this is completely broken if Breath of Life is overpowered, at the very least it costs a butt-ton of magicka and doesn't deal damage while it's happening.

2) Dragon Knights: First off Talons and the ability to reposition via Chain is probably the most useful overall utility in this game. It's almost laughable how much stronger this is than even the Sorc toolkits, especially considering their costs and the ease in which DK's regenerate magicka via their low-cost-but-obscenely-powerful Standard of Might Ultimate (that yet again provides more CC.)

Next we have Igneous Weapons, which is for both stamina and DPS casters, an incredibly powerful buff. This is essentially another glyph on another piece of jewelry that doesn't exist ACROSS YOUR ENTIRE PARTY.

And lastly we have Fragmented Shield. What's better than just healing or shielding? Exploding that shield. This is a mini-blazing Shield, for everybody.

Consequently, this isn't looking for nerfs. It's looking for buffs. ZOS was right: Everybody needs brought up to the level of the game's premier damage dealing classes. But the perspective that exists is stupid. Simply because they completely ignore how powerful the utility that these classes bring are.

DeLindsay

VoB is NOT up non-stop on a ST enemy, only in AOE situations can NB's keep it rolling. For healing, it's up with more or less frequency than DPS dependent on how much Healing Springs is spammed. For tanking I can hardly ever use VoB while tanking ST, AOE it's fine as I can almost roll it continuously (Magicka dependent due to Sap Essence). I'm curious to see if NB's will all go back to FunnelBlades once the change to Destro scaling happens or if CS will still be prefered, but it's certainly great off-healing utility to have a FunnelBlade in the group.

Now once the change does happen, I can see NB Healers increasing in popularity since Funnel Health will heal for more than it does currently with Healers either stacking Magicka regen/cost reduction and/or Weapon Damage. Also, you'd be surprised how many times I've run with a DK or 2 in group and never had the Igneous Weapon buff. You'd almost think that would be a requirement for DK's to have on at least their alt bar to keep up 100%.

Pmarsico9

DeLindsay wrote: »

VoB is NOT up non-stop on a ST enemy, only in AOE situations can NB's keep it rolling. For healing, it's up with more or less frequency than DPS dependent on how much Healing Springs is spammed. For tanking I can hardly ever use VoB while tanking ST, AOE it's fine as I can almost roll it continuously (Magicka dependent due to Sap Essence). I'm curious to see if NB's will all go back to FunnelBlades once the change to Destro scaling happens or if CS will still be prefered, but it's certainly great off-healing utility to have a FunnelBlade in the group.

Now once the change does happen, I can see NB Healers increasing in popularity since Funnel Health will heal for more than it does currently with Healers either stacking Magicka regen/cost reduction and/or Weapon Damage. Also, you'd be surprised how many times I've run with a DK or 2 in group and never had the Igneous Weapon buff. You'd almost think that would be a requirement for DK's to have on at least their alt bar to keep up 100%.

I see alot of DPS NB's able to keep up VoB over 50-60% of the time in ST situations. The two handed-based ones due to Carve seem to have the ability to break 70% uptime on it.

As for DK's who don't use Igneous, that doesn't change the fact that both Igneous and Molten Armaments are both very, very powerful buffs.

Just because people are bad doesn't mean that it's not a great buff.

Just like how I see a lot of people who don't use Flawless Dawnbreaker on their attack bar and then don't swap to use their actual ultimate. It hurts so much when people don't read tooltips.

DeLindsay

50-60% is fairly accurate for ST DPS. I guess I just read your comment wrong, it seemed to me in my head you were stating that VoB could be rolled continuously but in a ST fight it cannot. For AOE DPS yes, I can overlap it if I choose to.

Pmarsico9

DeLindsay wrote: »

50-60% is fairly accurate for ST DPS. I guess I just read your comment wrong, it seemed to me in my head you were stating that VoB could be rolled continuously but in a ST fight it cannot. For AOE DPS yes, I can overlap it if I choose to.

And 50% of the time the raid taking 20% less damage is powerful.

Fissh

Sorcs are NOT behind in dps department. And neither are Templars. I have seen both pull over 1k dps, no problem. Really not sure what the point is here.

Pmarsico9

Fissh wrote: »

Sorcs are NOT behind in dps department. And neither are Templars. I have seen both pull over 1k dps, no problem. Really not sure what the point is here.

If a Sorc or Templar is doing 1K, a DK or NB is doing 1400-1600 played at the same level.............although I have seen NB's doing 2K and DKs doing 1800.

Those are wide, very wide in fact, discrepancies.

Dymence

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Fissh wrote: »

Sorcs are NOT behind in dps department. And neither are Templars. I have seen both pull over 1k dps, no problem. Really not sure what the point is here.

If a Sorc or Templar is doing 1K, a DK or NB is doing 1400-1600 played at the same level.............although I have seen NB's doing 2K and DKs doing 1800.

Those are wide, very wide in fact, discrepancies.

NBs and DKs will never be doing 1.8k to 2k dps. Maybe in aoe situations, but under no circumstances single target. The only thing you can pull this kind of dps on is the storm atronarch in AA. On everything else, this dps is a load of bull.

Pmarsico9

Dymence wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Fissh wrote: »

Sorcs are NOT behind in dps department. And neither are Templars. I have seen both pull over 1k dps, no problem. Really not sure what the point is here.

If a Sorc or Templar is doing 1K, a DK or NB is doing 1400-1600 played at the same level.............although I have seen NB's doing 2K and DKs doing 1800.

Those are wide, very wide in fact, discrepancies.

NBs and DKs will never be doing 1.8k to 2k dps. Maybe in aoe situations, but under no circumstances single target. The only thing you can pull this kind of dps on is the storm atronarch in AA. On everything else, this dps is a load of bull.

Well then I must be hallucinating when it's linked. Repeatedly.

Dymence

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Fissh wrote: »

Sorcs are NOT behind in dps department. And neither are Templars. I have seen both pull over 1k dps, no problem. Really not sure what the point is here.

If a Sorc or Templar is doing 1K, a DK or NB is doing 1400-1600 played at the same level.............although I have seen NB's doing 2K and DKs doing 1800.

Those are wide, very wide in fact, discrepancies.

NBs and DKs will never be doing 1.8k to 2k dps. Maybe in aoe situations, but under no circumstances single target. The only thing you can pull this kind of dps on is the storm atronarch in AA. On everything else, this dps is a load of bull.

Well then I must be hallucinating when it's linked. Repeatedly.

On what, though? Show me a screenshot of someone pulling that on the mantikora or serpent, and I'll take my hat off for them.

Pmarsico9

Dymence wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Fissh wrote: »

Sorcs are NOT behind in dps department. And neither are Templars. I have seen both pull over 1k dps, no problem. Really not sure what the point is here.

If a Sorc or Templar is doing 1K, a DK or NB is doing 1400-1600 played at the same level.............although I have seen NB's doing 2K and DKs doing 1800.

Those are wide, very wide in fact, discrepancies.

NBs and DKs will never be doing 1.8k to 2k dps. Maybe in aoe situations, but under no circumstances single target. The only thing you can pull this kind of dps on is the storm atronarch in AA. On everything else, this dps is a load of bull.

Well then I must be hallucinating when it's linked. Repeatedly.

On what, though? Show me a screenshot of someone pulling that on the mantikora or serpent, and I'll take my hat off for them.

On those particular encounters, Templars aren't doing 1K, either.

s7732425ub17_ESO

Dymence wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Fissh wrote: »

Sorcs are NOT behind in dps department. And neither are Templars. I have seen both pull over 1k dps, no problem. Really not sure what the point is here.

If a Sorc or Templar is doing 1K, a DK or NB is doing 1400-1600 played at the same level.............although I have seen NB's doing 2K and DKs doing 1800.

Those are wide, very wide in fact, discrepancies.

NBs and DKs will never be doing 1.8k to 2k dps. Maybe in aoe situations, but under no circumstances single target. The only thing you can pull this kind of dps on is the storm atronarch in AA. On everything else, this dps is a load of bull.

There was a fantastic post with good numbers somewhere.
With a good rotation with no interruptions, an ultimate, and executes:
Sorc, Temp = 1k DPS
NB, DK = 1.4k DPS

Evil Hunter should add at least 200 DPS to all classes when used. However, you cannot include Evil Hunter DPS numbers as it inflates everything.

Also, if you look at DPS numbers of very long battles where you are doing at least 50K damage, you will see the numbers drop off. In order for a Sorc to maintain 1k DPS in a very long battle, they are forced to use Spell Crit pots continuously. If you do not do this, such as when running a Vet Dungeon, a Sorc that can maintain 800 DPS is pretty much on top of their game.

However, if you look at other classes, such as a DK, you will see something different. A DK does not have to spam Spell Crit pots in order to hit 1k DPS. If you take the same amount of effort needed to sustain 1k DPS on a Templar or Sorc and transfer that to a NB or DK, you will see 1.2k, 1.4k, and higher DPS numbers. This is a FACT and has been proven time and time again.

Dymence

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Fissh wrote: »

Sorcs are NOT behind in dps department. And neither are Templars. I have seen both pull over 1k dps, no problem. Really not sure what the point is here.

If a Sorc or Templar is doing 1K, a DK or NB is doing 1400-1600 played at the same level.............although I have seen NB's doing 2K and DKs doing 1800.

Those are wide, very wide in fact, discrepancies.

NBs and DKs will never be doing 1.8k to 2k dps. Maybe in aoe situations, but under no circumstances single target. The only thing you can pull this kind of dps on is the storm atronarch in AA. On everything else, this dps is a load of bull.

There was a fantastic post with good numbers somewhere.
With a good rotation with no interruptions, an ultimate, and executes:
Sorc, Temp = 1k DPS
NB, DK = 1.4k DPS

Evil Hunter should add at least 200 DPS to all classes when used. However, you cannot include Evil Hunter DPS numbers as it inflates everything.

Also, if you look at DPS numbers of very long battles where you are doing at least 50K damage, you will see the numbers drop off. In order for a Sorc to maintain 1k DPS in a very long battle, they are forced to use Spell Crit pots continuously. If you do not do this, such as when running a Vet Dungeon, a Sorc that can maintain 800 DPS is pretty much on top of their game.

However, if you look at other classes, such as a DK, you will see something different. A DK does not have to spam Spell Crit pots in order to hit 1k DPS. If you take the same amount of effort needed to sustain 1k DPS on a Templar or Sorc and transfer that to a NB or DK, you will see 1.2k, 1.4k, and higher DPS numbers. This is a FACT and has been proven time and time again.

Sure, but there's a pretty big ***ing difference between 1.2k - 1.4k and 1.8k - 2k.

Pmarsico9

Dymence wrote: »

Sure, but there's a pretty big ***ing difference between 1.2k - 1.4k and 1.8k - 2k.

Then you understand the reason why it's a "pretty big *** difference" between Temps/Sorcs and DKs/NBs.

Aeratus

I play both sorc and NB, and I know that NB is not ahead of sorc by 400 dps for true single target sustain. The dps difference is at most 100-175 in a situation with full group support.

One reason why people have perceived NBs and DK to be much higher in dps than sorc is that NBs and DKs have AOE ultimate. Since many boss fights have adds, this causes the dps of NBs and DKs to be heavily inflated, because the adds are inflating the dps counter when the ultimate is on.

The other thing is that people are comparing sorc and NB between different weapon builds. A stamina sorc will do more damage than a destro sorc (at least for non-daedric targets), so it is accurate only if we compare stamina sorc with stamina NB, rather than to compare destro sorc with stamina NB.

Pmarsico9

Aeratus wrote: »

I play both sorc and NB, and I know that NB is not ahead of sorc by 400 dps for true single target sustain. The dps difference is more like 100-175 in a situation with full group support.

One reason why people have perceived NBs and DK to be much higher in dps than sorc is solely due to the fact that NBs and DKs have AOE ultimate. Since many boss fights have adds, this causes the dps of NBs and DKs to be heavily inflated, because the adds are inflating the dps counter when the ultimate is on.

Please re-read the OP. Additionally, the discrepancy will vary between guilds and between players.

The DK's and NB's in one of my guilds sustain gaps, single target, much higher than what you are saying. But that's anecdotal, much like your statement is.

The base toolkit, however, is often ignored:

DK's and NB's have incredibly valuable buffs and utility that they pay no penalty for, which seems to be the persistent reasoning as to why Sorcs and Templars have a gap greater than 10% of the other classes. Adjusting some class passives would close that gap. Yet it's not done. Why? We don't know. All we know is that in 1.6, apparently every class skill is getting examined and potentially tweaked.

Dymence

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Sure, but there's a pretty big ***ing difference between 1.2k - 1.4k and 1.8k - 2k.

Then you understand the reason why it's a "pretty big *** difference" between Temps/Sorcs and DKs/NBs.

It doesn't seem like you get what I'm saying. I'm at this point even wondering if you yourself know what you're talking about.

A lot of these 'factual' dps figures are largely inflated, made up and taken for granted by a large part of the player base. In fact, I will even go as far as to say that a magicka funnel health nightblade will never beat a magicka crushing shock sorc in dps.

Every class and build has it's own role to fill. The reason nightblades are so wanted in raids, is not because of their damage, but their utility. Magicka nightblades add a lot of utility with their funnel health healing ticks and their high uptime on their veils, that they're pretty mandatory in raids.

However, magicka nightblades need siphoning attacks to function properly because spell symmetry is simply not an option for a magicka nightblade, you'll need to spam it far too much which in itself will cause a dps loss.

A nightblade that beats a magicka sorc in dps is a stamina nightblade, not a magicka nightblade. And everyone can pull roughly the same dps with a stamina bow build, this is not exclusive to nightblades.

This brings me to the topic of DKs. Everyone say they're the top DPS......

But are they really?

DKs can really shine when they can hug the boss and reapply their dots to keep up a proper rotation, including their banner. In a lot of fights however, this is not possible. Take the hel ra hardmode warrior fight, or the mantikora for instance. DKs are outmatched in the most 'important' raids simply because of the various boss' mechanics.

TL;DR: Most 'factual' dps figures have been made up by a small portion of the community on things such as the storm atronarch in AA and boss encounters in which you can deal AOE dmg and these have been further inflated by the rest of the community and are now held up as a 'standard norm' for dps.

Aeratus

A lot of these 'factual' dps figures are largely inflated, made up and taken for granted by a large part of the player base. In fact, I will even go as far as to say that a magicka funnel health nightblade will never beat a magicka crushing shock sorc in dps.

This is partially correct. In pure ranged combat (or when fighting fast moving targets like the HR warrior), a funnel health NB is worse than crushing shock sorc in terms of dps. This is why high end NBs don't want to play funnel health anymore, because the dps is weak.

But in close combat, funnel health NB is about the same or slightly higher in dps than sorc, because of veil of blades. On the other hand, in pure ranged combat, veil can't be used effectively.

A nightblade that beats a magicka sorc in dps is a stamina nightblade, not a magicka nightblade. And everyone can pull roughly the same dps with a stamina bow build, this is not exclusive to nightblades.

This is incorrect. A crushing shock NB will also beat a crushing shock sorc. I play crushing shock NB and I never or almost never get out-dps'ed by a crushing shock sorc (including my own crushing shock sorc).

TehMagnus

Fragmented shield explosion only deals dmg on wearer, not the party. I don't see what igneous weapons has to do with anything, NBs and Sorcs have similar spells.

In parties what works best nos is to have dedicated roles, full tank, full DPS, full heal (or off-heal when not much heal is needed).

DKs and NBs pull the most DPS, so it's normal that the classes pulling less DPS end up supporting. This is why sorcs and templars end up doing just that.

Not all classes can be equal

DKs are awesome DPS and Tanks.
Templars are awesome Healers and Tanks.
NBs are overall good at healing, tanking and DPSing
Sorcs are good tanks and good suports.

You can expect all classes to be at the same point.

If you picked a templar and hoped to DPS, you made a mistake. A mistake when you believed that "play as you want" could ever be achieved in an MMOG governed by math, mistake not to read carefully enough your class skills to realize "There's a [snip] toon of Healing/Damage mitigation /buff/debuff spells in there".

Even if templars can pull as much DPS as DKS, they will still be preferred as healers and a player who will come and say "I exclusively DPS with my templar" will be asked to learn to heal just in case or GTFO, so buffing them is not going to change anything.

Merrak

DeLindsay wrote: »

VoB is NOT up non-stop on a ST enemy, only in AOE situations can NB's keep it rolling. For healing, it's up with more or less frequency than DPS dependent on how much Healing Springs is spammed.

Throw Rapid Regen, Funnel Health, and high Crit Chance in...I'm dropping Veil on cooldown.

Pmarsico9

magnusnet wrote: »

Fragmented shield explosion only deals dmg on wearer, not the party. I don't see what igneous weapons has to do with anything, NBs and Sorcs have similar spells.

In parties what works best nos is to have dedicated roles, full tank, full DPS, full heal (or off-heal when not much heal is needed).

DKs and NBs pull the most DPS, so it's normal that the classes pulling less DPS end up supporting. This is why sorcs and templars end up doing just that.

Not all classes can be equal

DKs are awesome DPS and Tanks.
Templars are awesome Healers and Tanks.
NBs are overall good at healing, tanking and DPSing
Sorcs are good tanks and good suports.

You can expect all classes to be at the same point.

If you picked a templar and hoped to DPS, you made a mistake. A mistake when you believed that "play as you want" could ever be achieved in an MMOG governed by math, mistake not to read carefully enough your class skills to realize "There's a [snip] toon of Healing/Damage mitigation /buff/debuff spells in there".

Even if templars can pull as much DPS as DKS, they will still be preferred as healers and a player who will come and say "I exclusively DPS with my templar" will be asked to learn to heal just in case or GTFO, so buffing them is not going to change anything.

Trials Makeup:

1-2 Tanks, 1-2 Healers, 8-10 DPS.

There's more DPS slots available than tanking and healing slots. It's that simple.

Beyond that, the utility of a DK and Nightblade is just as powerful if not moreso than that of a Sorc or Temp. It's that simple.

There is literally no reason that anybody can substantiate a 10-20% damage potential penalty simply based on the class you rolled months ago. The arguments are always the same people who justify it by saying "Wah, Temps are the best healers."

Those slots are rare, in fact, there's less than 25% potential healing and tanking slots than DPS slots.

By that logic, with the way rep is, DK's should be the second lowest DPS. They are, by far, the most preferred and utilized tank.

Beyond that: Your anecdotal DPS is no more or less truthful than anyone else's. Nobody is sitting there pretending to be in a trial carefully doctoring a recount script to show that they do over 1800 or 2000 dps in a trial. They actually do it. And, not just on the Storm Antronach. I've seen this myself. Repeatedly, reliably. It's not hard to do with a CS DK or NB.

Dymence

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Beyond that: Your anecdotal DPS is no more or less truthful than anyone else's. Nobody is sitting there pretending to be in a trial carefully doctoring a recount script to show that they do over 1800 or 2000 dps in a trial. They actually do it. And, not just on the Storm Antronach. I've seen this myself. Repeatedly, reliably. It's not hard to do with a CS DK or NB.

You still haven't said on what, you only now included that it's not just on the storm atronarch. Tell me on what exactly, and then we can discuss this '1800 - 2000' dps further.

Pmarsico9

Dymence wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Beyond that: Your anecdotal DPS is no more or less truthful than anyone else's. Nobody is sitting there pretending to be in a trial carefully doctoring a recount script to show that they do over 1800 or 2000 dps in a trial. They actually do it. And, not just on the Storm Antronach. I've seen this myself. Repeatedly, reliably. It's not hard to do with a CS DK or NB.

You still haven't said on what, you only now included that it's not just on the storm atronarch. Tell me on what exactly, and then we can discuss this '1800 - 2000' dps further.

First off, the actual parses I've seen linked for Storm Atronach have been around 2400. He is always between 2300-2400. That's on a Nightblade. I don't bring that up because the fight's inflated by Evil Hunter. And that's not even on great AA runs, with 15-16 second kills.

They have linked 1850-2000 on the Warrior and nothing lower than 1600 in all of the Serpent Trial.

I will screenshot the next time they link. I don't always record what they link in my one guild chat. But effectively through all of AA and Hel Ra they are able to sustain obscenely high numbers.

With that said, if the gaps between classes was 100, that's OK. But the gaps are massive. Upwards of 20-40%. That's a no brainer for anybody trying to form a raid. And the ease in which it's attained is almost laughable compared to what Templars go through and the lack of good class abilities that a Sorc has available.

Aeratus

2000 dps on the Warrior? lol he probably just did a 15 second parse during the blue-zone buff phase.

2400 on Storm Atronach can be done in some conditions, but your story sounds fishy given the 15-16 second timeframe. I mean, wtf were his group-mates doing during that time if it takes 15 seconds to kill the thing.

Pmarsico9

Aeratus wrote: »

2000 dps on the Warrior? lol he probably just did a 15 second parse during the blue-zone buff phase.

2400 on Storm Atronach can be done in some conditions, but your story sounds fishy given the 15-16 second timeframe. I mean, wtf were his group-mates doing during that time if it takes 15 seconds to kill the thing.

You could be right about the Warrior. As for the Atronach, DPS does stand for damage per second. If the entire group's damage is that high, then they would all have inflated numbers

The comp, as far as I'm aware completely minimizes the amount of Templars and Sorcs they take, generally 1 of each, at least in the brief time I've talked about this with him. The Temp is naturally healing and the Sorc is there for negate.

Aeratus

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

2000 dps on the Warrior? lol he probably just did a 15 second parse during the blue-zone buff phase.

2400 on Storm Atronach can be done in some conditions, but your story sounds fishy given the 15-16 second timeframe. I mean, wtf were his group-mates doing during that time if it takes 15 seconds to kill the thing.

You could be right about the Warrior. As for the Atronach, DPS does stand for damage per second. If the entire group's damage is that high, then they would all have inflated numbers

The comp, as far as I'm aware completely minimizes the amount of Templars and Sorcs they take, generally 1 of each, at least in the brief time I've talked about this with him. The Temp is naturally healing and the Sorc is there for negate.

I'm saying that 15-16 seconds is too long for a group that has someone with 2.4 dps (if this 2.4k is through the entire fight and not just the first 5 seconds or so).

2400 dps over 15 seconds is 36k total damage. The storm atronach has 157k HP. So if what you're saying is correct, then this guy did almost 1/4 of the entire group's damage. This is implausible.

2k+ dps is what you seen for groups that kill the storm atronach in 8 seconds, not groups that kill him in 15 seconds.

Pmarsico9

Aeratus wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Aeratus wrote: »

2000 dps on the Warrior? lol he probably just did a 15 second parse during the blue-zone buff phase.

2400 on Storm Atronach can be done in some conditions, but your story sounds fishy given the 15-16 second timeframe. I mean, wtf were his group-mates doing during that time if it takes 15 seconds to kill the thing.

You could be right about the Warrior. As for the Atronach, DPS does stand for damage per second. If the entire group's damage is that high, then they would all have inflated numbers

The comp, as far as I'm aware completely minimizes the amount of Templars and Sorcs they take, generally 1 of each, at least in the brief time I've talked about this with him. The Temp is naturally healing and the Sorc is there for negate.

I'm saying that 15-16 seconds is too long for a group that has someone with 2.4 dps (if this 2.4k is through the entire fight and not just the first 5 seconds or so).

2400 dps over 15 seconds is 36k total damage. The storm atronach has 157k HP. So if what you're saying is correct, then this guy did almost 1/4 of the entire group's damage. This is implausible.

2k+ dps is what you seen for groups that kill the storm atronach in 8 seconds, not groups that kill him in 15 seconds.

Must've been 8 then. It was on a 9 minute run.

xaraan

There is a lot of bias and misleading information in your post, but I don't disagree that sorcs need some love. The ulti's you say are incredibly cheap are some of the more expensive in the game - but they are extremely useful and the same can't be said for any of the sorc ultimates. Some of your information on what you know of the other classes sounds like it comes from watching them play and not playing them yourself. Not trying to sound like I'm coming down hard on you, but when you use examples that are a bit exaggerated or inflated, people can often ignore your point.

I also disagree that healing power should take away from dps is a "fallacy." I, in fact, believe very much just that. Does that mean dps should be so terrible as to not be useful? No - we have both a stamina templar DPS and magicka templar DPS that have some of the top dps in our guild - it can be done, though with magicka it's a little trickier (ie has to be built and played right). But, healing is different than utility IMO and if you give the best healing class in the game (by far) an easy equal DPS capability then you have to give the other classes the same healing power as well.

As for sorcs, they too have some of the top dps if played right, the main problem that I think people run into is that you can have a sloppy DK, and to a lesser extent magicka NB, build that do well. Stamina had this problem before the buffs - the ability to squeeze out good dps was there, but things had to be done perfectly and there wasn't as much room for error or variation. Sorcs don't have any class abilities they can rely on to pump out amazing dps, they have to rely on the destro staff. This isn't horrible, but really limits variety in sorc builds. I think if they buffed one or two skills (made the curse dot better and the lightning pool a bit stronger and bigger) it would add a bit. Other than that a good improvement to stormy would go a long way - every class has the "nova/standard/veil" to throw down except sorc. Negate is awesome in the right situations, stormy is ok, but should be on par with the big three IMO.

DeLindsay

@xaraan not do derail the topic but looking at ur sig, do you seriously have (5) VR14's? If so bravo my good sir.

xaraan

DeLindsay wrote: »

@xaraan not do derail the topic but looking at ur sig, do you seriously have (5) VR14's? If so bravo my good sir.

yeah, most of our static group has 3-4 v14s and we rotate roles so everyone has experience playing tanks, healers and dps. But I have less of a life, so have an extra v14 and another v5. Got a couple other non vets I'd like to get up there one day, especially my templar tank - I'd like to compare him to my dk and nb at top content.

Pmarsico9

xaraan wrote: »

There is a lot of bias and misleading information in your post, but I don't disagree that sorcs need some love. The ulti's you say are incredibly cheap are some of the more expensive in the game - but they are extremely useful and the same can't be said for any of the sorc ultimates. Some of your information on what you know of the other classes sounds like it comes from watching them play and not playing them yourself. Not trying to sound like I'm coming down hard on you, but when you use examples that are a bit exaggerated or inflated, people can often ignore your point.

I also disagree that healing power should take away from dps is a "fallacy." I, in fact, believe very much just that. Does that mean dps should be so terrible as to not be useful? No - we have both a stamina templar DPS and magicka templar DPS that have some of the top dps in our guild - it can be done, though with magicka it's a little trickier (ie has to be built and played right). But, healing is different than utility IMO and if you give the best healing class in the game (by far) an easy equal DPS capability then you have to give the other classes the same healing power as well.

As for sorcs, they too have some of the top dps if played right, the main problem that I think people run into is that you can have a sloppy DK, and to a lesser extent magicka NB, build that do well. Stamina had this problem before the buffs - the ability to squeeze out good dps was there, but things had to be done perfectly and there wasn't as much room for error or variation. Sorcs don't have any class abilities they can rely on to pump out amazing dps, they have to rely on the destro staff. This isn't horrible, but really limits variety in sorc builds. I think if they buffed one or two skills (made the curse dot better and the lightning pool a bit stronger and bigger) it would add a bit. Other than that a good improvement to stormy would go a long way - every class has the "nova/standard/veil" to throw down except sorc. Negate is awesome in the right situations, stormy is ok, but should be on par with the big three IMO.

Can I get some insight on this top DPS magicka caster build for a Templar? Because if he's breaking 1K he may have found the grail for Templars.

With that said, I agree. Because the healing utility is literally breath of life and it's ridiculous that everybody can heal but are tied to "zergball" healing mechanics. This is easy to fix and needs to be done.

However, in reality, there's a ton more DPS slots available than tank or healing slots for trials teams and for trials PUGs. If you want some tradeoff, 10% is fine.

But we're talking 20-40% discrepancies. It's insane. Especially considering Dragon Knights. The entire toolkit and raid buffs are brutally powerful.