Are AOE, CC and Regen Rates killing PvP ?

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Sharkan
Sharkan
Have you done some keep capture and group PvP recently ?

It's all about zerg balls running around with insane damage shields, devouring swarm + standard of might and stupid mages spamming PBAOEs.

Add the DK Talons ability in the mix, and you have the perfect recipe for a fun and tactical PvP...or not :-/

Seriously, not only does it kill framerate (the more together the better :-/) but it's NOT fun.

By the way, this is what happens when you balance a game for PVE and hope it will magically work in PVP :) Some games patched this with different spell values in PVP and PVE...I'm not a big fan, but at least, it helps.

My 2 cents :
- All AOE should have their dmg values reduced or costs raised in PVP
- Ultimate trigger should be time based (i.e. 5 mins) so they would be "this extra boost you pull out in case of emergency situation" and not something you can spam around every 30s thanks to AOE abilites replenishing your ultimate pool.
- You do some PvP for the fun of interacting with human opponent. Crowd Control does the opposite of that and I suggest a general pass should be done to limit CC in this game.
- Magicka / Stamina regen should be reduced (or spell cost raised) so you can't have Sorcerers spamming Bolt Escape until they've crossed half of cyrodiil or stacking shield like crazy, Archers spamming snipes until death (although, at least, everyone in game can have access to snipe), etc. (PvP balancing only)

I know you can counter some of those (i.e. "turn undead" fighters guild ability against vampire or Negate Magic) but truth is too much is too much ^^

  • Huntler
    Huntler
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    Sharkan wrote: »
    Have you done some keep capture and group PvP recently ?

    It's all about zerg balls running around with insane damage shields, devouring swarm + standard of might and stupid mages spamming PBAOEs.

    Add the DK Talons ability in the mix, and you have the perfect recipe for a fun and tactical PvP...or not :-/

    Seriously, not only does it kill framerate (the more together the better :-/) but it's NOT fun.

    By the way, this is what happens when you balance a game for PVE and hope it will magically work in PVP :) Some games patched this with different spell values in PVP and PVE...I'm not a big fan, but at least, it helps.

    My 2 cents :
    - All AOE should have their dmg values reduced or costs raised in PVP
    - Ultimate trigger should be time based (i.e. 5 mins) so they would be "this extra boost you pull out in case of emergency situation" and not something you can spam around every 30s thanks to AOE abilites replenishing your ultimate pool.
    - You do some PvP for the fun of interacting with human opponent. Crowd Control does the opposite of that and I suggest a general pass should be done to limit CC in this game.
    - Magicka / Stamina regen should be reduced (or spell cost raised) so you can't have Sorcerers spamming Bolt Escape until they've crossed half of cyrodiil or stacking shield like crazy, Archers spamming snipes until death (although, at least, everyone in game can have access to snipe), etc. (PvP balancing only)

    I know you can counter some of those (i.e. "turn undead" fighters guild ability against vampire or Negate Magic) but truth is too much is too much ^^

    You make the bolded change, you actually buff zergs.... thorough thinking
  • Lhorion
    Lhorion
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    Magica and Stamina reg should be reduced? Or the costs increased?

    If this would happen..... Hyprid builds would die (if ther aren't yet). All would have to use Seducer + Warlock + 7/7 light armour to deal with their magica (in case of a magica build). At the moment Seducer and Warlock is in many cases the best choice. If the costs would be increased it would be the only choice.

    This is what i am suspecting.
  • Armitas
    Armitas
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    This is called bombing and it's only fun for the victor. In a hard fought fight even the loser is satisfied, but only the winner is satisfied in a bomb. But bombing is valid point of strategy, and it's tough to nerf it in pvp without effecting pve.

    Waiting in stealth to counter bomb a flag, or bursting through a tower to wipe up the opposition all has a valid place in PvP. I think it would be better to add variety in tactics to PvP rather than nerf this stuff again. This is done by making anti bombs, which the developers have talked about doing. An example of an anti bomb skill would be pre nerfed fragmented shield. Fragmented shield was a great anti bomb but it was completely removed rather than balanced.

    If it's done right a pvp group should have multiple tactical options rather than who can negate bomb the fastest. The counter option to bombing would be surround, debuff, and focus fire, and I think that tactic should be made more viable through the skills.

    TL/DR rather than nerf a valid tactical option, lets make other tactical options. Change it so Group A has to make a tactical decision to bomb or surround. Bomb if there are no anti bombs in Group B, or surround if there are.
    Edited by Armitas on December 17, 2014 3:39PM
    Retired.
    Nord mDK
  • Da Sandman
    Da Sandman
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    You lost me at the 5 minute ultimate timer
    Da Sandman

    Havöc
  • Sanct16
    Sanct16
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    All your changes would make bombgroups even stronger.

    The easiest solution to fix the stacking issue is just remove aoe caps.
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  • Huntler
    Huntler
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    Armitas wrote: »
    Fragmented shield was a great anti bomb but it was completely removed rather than balanced.
    Fragmented shield was a terrible anti-bomb skill, did you really already forget how it was used? Whichever clump had more DKs would win. It didn't prevent clumps its just made clumps with more people and more DKs win.
  • Armitas
    Armitas
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    Huntler wrote: »
    Fragmented shield was a terrible anti-bomb skill, did you really already forget how it was used? Whichever clump had more DKs would win. It didn't prevent clumps its just made clumps with more people and more DKs win.
    Armitas wrote: »
    An example of an anti bomb skill would be pre nerfed fragmented shield.

    It was never suggested that this be the only antibomb skill, it was an example clarifying what an antibomb skill would look like.

    My post refers to bombing, not clumping or zergballing. Bombing entails clumping, but clumping does not entail bombing.
    Edited by Armitas on December 17, 2014 5:51PM
    Retired.
    Nord mDK
  • Lhorion
    Lhorion
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    Fragment Shield was one of the best bomb skill (even it was planned as an anti bomb skill). DKs did their main damage with this skill while spamming a shield for the group.
    In groups I had to remorph this skill because it was the best. Now i am lucky being able to use Igneous Shield that I prefered in solo-situations from the beginning. Prenerf I often could not use this morph because I needed Fragment Shield when I was in a small group so we could bomb against a zerg :/
    Great job to nerf this! A planned anti bomb skill was abused as the best bomb skill DKs had!
  • Valnas
    Valnas
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    wat ?

    so long i wish i didn't read. Can you condense your gripe to

    Why can't other people generate ult as slow as me (forced cap_
    Why can't I stand in red circles (reduce the dmgssss)
    Why can't I facetank zergballs ? (give me a win button)
    Fluph Head EP sorc dank magus
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  • Nijjion
    Nijjion
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    Sharkan wrote: »
    It's all about zerg balls running around with insane damage shields, devouring swarm + standard of might and stupid mages spamming PBAOEs.

    Only 1 thing can fix this and it's taking away caps.

    I bet if you took away all aoe skills people would still zerg ball.

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  • Kaghei
    Kaghei
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    Huntler wrote: »

    You make the bolded change, you actually buff zergs.... thorough thinking

    You make all those changes and zergs are buffed.

    Limit the aoe damage and everyone will be forced into 24 man groups to actually kill guards, no players will die because healing will be way out of control.
    Reduce cc limit and now the 50 man blob can run straight through the oil, straight through the ultimates and force capture the flag.
    Increase spell cost and again players will have the zerg up to maintain their damage and healing.
    ''Ultimate trigger should be time based (i.e. 5 mins)'' - Dks now become a useless class, nbs a lot weaker.
    Edited by Kaghei on December 17, 2014 6:22PM
    Alacrity
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  • Kaghei
    Kaghei
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    Armitas wrote: »
    Fragmented shield was a great anti bomb but it was completely removed rather than balanced.

    Frag shield was broken as ***. I dread the day when a group of 16 templars all blazing shield spam.
    it also wasn't removed it was balance imo.
    Alacrity
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  • Armitas
    Armitas
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    Kaghei wrote: »

    Frag shield was broken. I dread the day when a group of 16 templars all blazing shield spam.
    it also wasn't removed it was balance imo.

    What I mean here is that it was completely removed as an anti bomb skill not that it no longer does damage. It still does damage and it defends against bombing but its damage is no longer a bomb deterrent.

    Yeah I am surprised blazing shield hasn't yet been fully tapped like frags was. Frag shield is no longer imbalanced but its also no longer an anti bomb. I would have rathered they tweak it than remove it's potential as an anti bomb entirely.
    Retired.
    Nord mDK
  • Draxys
    Draxys
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    Armitas wrote: »
    I think it would be better to add variety in tactics to PvP rather than nerf this stuff again.

    TL/DR rather than nerf a valid tactical option, lets make other tactical options. Change it so Group A has to make a tactical decision to bomb or surround. Bomb if there are no anti bombs in Group B, or surround if there are.

    ^
    2013

    rip decibel
  • Asgari
    Asgari
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    Those groups are not hard to kill. The problem is people hit them head on and stand in their negates. I solo kill many of them by just following from behind. Even with 2-3 members in a group it's not hard to wipe a full group because they are stacked so tight.

    It's a L2P issue , not a nerf this nerf that issue.
    Formerly @Persian_Princess .. Now @Asgari
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  • cote-bmsb16_ESO
    cote-bmsb16_ESO
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    Nah its just how zergy ZoS designed this gamemode in Cyrodiil. I'd be happier if there was smaller scaled pvp such as, 1v1, 2v2, 4v4, 8v8 or 16v16, as well as zergy Cyrodiil. I'd like smaller maps. Objectives on that small map, like king of the hill or capture the flag, death match, or whatever.
  • Lhorion
    Lhorion
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    Princess, are you sure about that?
    In your videos you are just a mortal player like the rest of us. No god we would await after we have red your posts.
  • NordJitsu
    NordJitsu
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    I despise all of these ideas.

    Everything you're suggesting would just encourage more zerg balls.

    L2P and understand the mechanics. Lifting AoE caps and buffing AoEs would be the best thing to discourage zerging.
    @NordJitsu - Guild Master (Main Character = Hlaalu Idas)
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  • Sharkan
    Sharkan
    Seems like every body agrees to think that AOE and CC are anti zerg weapons.
    I'm still not convinced.
    From what I usually see, it's more : the more people you stack, the more heal and dmg shield benefits, and the more mindless AOE dmg output.

    Actually, a good ability against zergs would be something that propagates from player to player like disease or a lightning attack jumping from people to people when they are less than X m away with increased dmg on every jump :)

    Well...maybe it's just me who does prefer something a little more subtle, but hey, if everyone likes it AOE...I'll just give up on PVP in this game.

    Now about ultimates, I was in cyrodiil just 5 minutes ago, and while defending a keep, a DK rushed me. He managed to pull out 2 standards of might in...I don't know...maybe 15s ? I would be dead if it wasn't for the 5 or 6 other players who jumped down the wall to help me.
    At this rate, it's no longer an ultimate, it's a regular attack :)
    On a side note : were were 5 or 6 and it took us probably a minute to put him down while he almost killed half of us...tell me about balancing ;) ) (and no...I wasn't standing into the red area despite the nasty talon AOE root :-P )
  • Sharkan
    Sharkan
    NordJitsu wrote: »
    I despise all of these ideas.

    Everything you're suggesting would just encourage more zerg balls.

    L2P and understand the mechanics. Lifting AoE caps and buffing AoEs would be the best thing to discourage zerging.

    Despising ? Just that.
    Relax man, and learn to accept ideas and suggestions other than yours ;)
  • Asgari
    Asgari
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    Sharkan wrote: »
    Seems like every body agrees to think that AOE and CC are anti zerg weapons.
    I'm still not convinced.
    From what I usually see, it's more : the more people you stack, the more heal and dmg shield benefits, and the more mindless AOE dmg output.

    Actually, a good ability against zergs would be something that propagates from player to player like disease or a lightning attack jumping from people to people when they are less than X m away with increased dmg on every jump :)

    Well...maybe it's just me who does prefer something a little more subtle, but hey, if everyone likes it AOE...I'll just give up on PVP in this game.

    Now about ultimates, I was in cyrodiil just 5 minutes ago, and while defending a keep, a DK rushed me. He managed to pull out 2 standards of might in...I don't know...maybe 15s ? I would be dead if it wasn't for the 5 or 6 other players who jumped down the wall to help me.
    At this rate, it's no longer an ultimate, it's a regular attack :)

    On a side note : were were 5 or 6 and it took us probably a minute to put him down while he almost killed half of us...tell me about balancing ;) ) (and no...I wasn't standing into the red area despite the nasty talon AOE root :-P )

    I bolded what is wrong with you and the others who play this game....

    FOR THE LOVE OF GOD READ WHAT THE SKILL/ULTI DOES BEFORE MAKING FALSE ACCUSATIONS AND COMMENTS.

    Ok, now that I got that out of me; they were using shifting standard. It is able to be "shifted" to a new location near where it went down. :wink:
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  • davedesigns
    davedesigns
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    I agree 100% with OP - WAY too much CC and AOE / Swarm spamming in PvP makes kill times so quick it's not even fun.

    EVERY time someone pops Swarm it's the HIGHEST damage on my death replay. Like 1200 - 2000 damage from some stupid bats? Really? :\

    Half the time I can't even see enemy players until it's too late because the lag is so horrible. I can never get anything below 150 ping in Cyrodiil even with a fast internet connection.

    The amount of BS in the game and broken promises from Zeni is truly wearing thin...
  • ferzalrwb17_ESO
    ferzalrwb17_ESO
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    Nerf/Disable Impulse in PvP (even just make it blockable) and fix the purge bug for the cheesey meatbag/blockade cheat combo and you've gone half way to making the twobutton bombzergs rethink. The other half is fixing the lag they create (that they don't seem to suffer from themselves).

    Currently most of us, when facing these lagbombers, cannot react in any meaningful way because the bomb groups lag everything around them too much. You can be pulse-spammed to death instantly from what appears to be 30 metres away due to lag. You often don't see any animations including their negate and streakbatspam. Similarly, they're hard to counterCC because a DK may cast talons where he thinks he should but it's actually missing and the bombzerg rolls on. Immunity to hardCC is also hard to keep up since you need to cast immovable a long time before the lagbombers get to you or it simply doesn't work (and when it runs out you'll be hard pressed to reapply in the lag).

    So I don't think the CC is necessarily the problem. It's the lag. That said, no CC immunity with repeated streaks and talons is so dumb.
  • Teargrants
    Teargrants
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    Nerf/Disable Impulse in PvP
    So that they can start spamming steel tornado for higher dmg?
    Currently most of us, when facing these lagbombers, cannot react in any meaningful way because the bomb groups lag everything around them too much. You can be pulse-spammed to death instantly from what appears to be 30 metres away due to lag.
    You can always roll dodge no matter how bad the lag gets, just set dodge to a button. It's not hard to have situational awareness of where the lag train is, nor have I ever seen pulse spam from 30m away in lag, and I've been in all of the worst lag there's been in lagblade.
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  • Cody
    Cody
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    the number one thing killing PvP is the lag.

    The lag needs to be dealt with ASAP, then we can talk about perma block builds and CC spam and all that lovely stuff.
  • badmojo
    badmojo
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    PVP is all about players working together, using the tools they're provided with to overcome the enemy.

    It seems like you don't want to use the tools to their fullest extent and want to make changes that prevent those who do, from doing so.

    I despise the motives behind this thread.
    [DC/NA]
  • Soris
    Soris
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    (for only pvp) I like the ultimate timer idea. Some builds/classes have ridiculous rate of dropping ultimate and people just too much rely on ultimates rather than strategically using skills and such. It has to be an ULTIMATE ability not a regular 6th skill on your bar.

    And yeah I know, %80 of player base wouldn't like this idea since most of them are yet another batman or bannerman
    Welkynd [Templar/AD/EU]
  • Teargrants
    Teargrants
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    What part of 'strategic' involves arbitrary timers that remove the divide between skilled players with builds streamlined for ult gen vs randumbs?
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  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    Huntler wrote: »
    Fragmented shield was a terrible anti-bomb skill, did you really already forget how it was used? Whichever clump had more DKs would win. It didn't prevent clumps its just made clumps with more people and more DKs win.

    It was pretty good for anti bombing, I got some nice videos of it. Most bombs were spamming impulse because that blows stuff up, if you run into an enemy not doing damage to you frag shield was useless. But yea quite a few times zergs and bomb groups ran in on us and if spam frag shield and wipe them
  • JaJaLuka
    JaJaLuka
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    OP, perhaps you should have a think about the strategy you use. There are some things in PvP other players use that are specifically designed to counter what you are doing and they are obviously being used against you.
    To be honest I hate the zergging too, so I look for smaller fights for the most part.
    If they lowered the regen rate for stam and mana, the game would be increadibly boring, I like the uniqueness of this game in that the game is not centred on cooldowns and you are reliant on your resource management. Without an escape Sorc's would be toast, they have no major class skill that restores health and the only way to counter this is with bolt escape. So yes, they run when they have to.
    By the sound of this thread I would hazard a guess that you are fairly new to this game and if that's true I recommend you talk to some of the more experienced people and find a play style to works well for you. This style of PvP is a little different from the other MMO's out there, which is a good thing.

    NOTE: ZOS hurry up and give us duelling! :wink:
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