Aedra influence in Deadric realms

LMar

So.. The question I do have is about the Prophet. He calls on Akatosh while in Coldharbour. Do the Aedra have influence in Deadric realms? I wouldn't think so, but perhaps since the Prophet was near a link to Mundus he would be able to do something? Or it could just be a spell by the Prophet but just using Akatosh's name as a ritual or something

Any thoughts would be welcome

ThatHappyCat

You would think not, but Akatosh seems to be a special case. He's so powerful that just his avatar was able to defeat Mehrunes Dagon without much trouble, even though he's supposed to be greatly weakened by creation.

LMar

But that was still within Nirn. Wouldn't they face opposition from Deadric forces? In effect they are inside that deadra prince sort of

Zorrashi

I suppose, in a sense, just a little tiny tiny bit of Akatosh lies inside the prophet. Gave a part of himself to creation and all that....maybe Akatosh used the prophet as a "link" to channel his mass amount of energy into the prophet, who was a devout worshipper?

Or it could be a storyline oversight. I, personally, think its an oversight. But I suppose it was necessary to progress the story.

Darlgon

I point to the city of light in Coldharbor that existed since the first age and ask.. Why did you have to ask?

Also.. its because The Prophet held and used the Amulet of Kings. A side effect of that, he was able to read the Elder Scrolls like a trained Moth Priest and call on Akatosh, even tho Mannimarco corrupted the ceremony.

AlexDougherty

LMar wrote: »

So.. The question I do have is about the Prophet. He calls on Akatosh while in Coldharbour. Do the Aedra have influence in Deadric realms? I wouldn't think so, but perhaps since the Prophet was near a link to Mundus he would be able to do something? Or it could just be a spell by the Prophet but just using Akatosh's name as a ritual or something

Any thoughts would be welcome

Well, I would assume that Molag Bal's attempts to DRAG Nirn into Coldharbour means that at that point in time the boundaries between Creation and Oblivion are not as firm as they should be.

But as ThatHappyCat says Akatosh seems to be able to break the rules on occasion.

Aoife32001

LMar wrote: »

So.. The question I do have is about the Prophet. He calls on Akatosh while in Coldharbour. Do the Aedra have influence in Deadric realms? I wouldn't think so, but perhaps since the Prophet was near a link to Mundus he would be able to do something? Or it could just be a spell by the Prophet but just using Akatosh's name as a ritual or something

Any thoughts would be welcome

I'll preface this post by saying Elder Scrolls gives no clear answers regarding mythology and theology, so there is great room to maneuver when trying to make sense of these things. That being said, this is how I understand ES lore in this matter:

Consistent in ES lore, the Aedra Akatosh seems to be far more powerful than the Daedra, arguably. The culmination of ES: Oblivion was already mentioned, and the mere efficacy of the Amulet of Kings is an example of Akatosh's seemingly-superior power to the Daedra. Yes, it is in Nirn, but the fact that in this "middle-earth" Aedric power seems to always trump Daedric power would imply superior power for the Aedra.

But your question is what of that power in the actual realms of the Daedra? From what can generally be made out of the available sources on the creation, Anu appears to be (arguably) prior to Padomay, and Akatosh, who may very well be equivalent to Auri-El, is an emanation of Anu. Even if Padomay is co-eternal with Anu, however, Padomay's very existence would be dependent upon Anu. Anu, in a way, is the condition for the possibility of Padomay and the realms of the Daedra, because you can not have change without Be-ing, without some thing to change. For the Daedric realms to exist at all, there must be an element of permanence such that these realms can even be recognized at all.

As beings named and recognizable at all as personalities, the Daedra are dependent upon an underlying permanence. There is still a sense of permanence underlying chaos. This implies to me that Anu, the source of the Aedra, pre-exists or is the condition for the possibility of the existence of Padomay, and thus the Daedra that oppose Anu and the Aedra. In a sense, the Daedra, while they struggle against the Aedra, can never truly overcome them because they themselves exist only on the basis of the stasis that is Anu. If Padomay is a will-to-death, or non-being, as it were, he is thus a force fighting against itself to not "be"--to be the Void. Yet, in this sense, he is to some degree merely an opening up in Anu to give room for creation, and thus he himself is an opening in that which IS--which is anterior.

Because Anu and his seeming emanation Akatosh are thus conditions for the very possibility of even the Daedra, Akatosh would, in a sense, underlie even the possibility for the existence of the Daedric realms. Hence, his power would be efficacious even there.

In Abrahamic theologies in our own world, it would be the same notion that a Creator God's power would be efficacious even in Hell, the realm of this God's primary opponent. In other literature, we see this in Tolkien's the Ainulindale, where, in the beginning, Melkor tries to disrupt the Ainurs' music of creation by introducing dissonance. Yet, his efforts to distort the music of creation are merely weaved into that music to create a harmonious whole that still moves toward the intention of Illuvitar. This is how I understand the role between Anu and Padomay, and thus the Aedra and the Daedra.

Aoife32001

Of course, one can argue that chaos is anterior to stasis--that Padomay is the condition for the possibility of Anu, and thus the Aedra. Sithis (Padomay) is revered in some circles as the agent of Creation, after all, so there is some truth to this. The identities of the Aedra and the Daedra after all seem to have coalesced out of the chaos of the primordial era of creation. Yet, I still don't see a way for there to be "pure chaos", because something must be chaotic. Anu / Auri-El / Akatosh(?) is that "Thing" into which chaos can be introduced for Nirn, the Aedra, and the Daedra to be.

Thus, even in Coldharbor, Anu --> Auri-El --> Akatosh (?) IS, for at the heart of all that exists is the condition for the possibility of that existence. Even in Molag Bal himself is Anu, just as in Satan is God and in Melkor is Illuvitar, though each might rage in futility against this Be-ing with all his might.

AlexDougherty

Aoife32001 wrote: »

Consistent in ES lore, the Aedra seem to be far more powerful than the Daedra, arguably.

While most of your post is a decent arguement, and could very well be true, the Aedra are not more powerful than the Daedra. Prior to them creating the universe, they were both equal, both in terms of power and the fact neitehr could be killed.

However when the Aedra created the universe they bound most of their power into it, making them weaker than the Daedra and killable (Aedra can die, Daedra can't).

The second strongest Aedra was Trinimac, and he fell to Boethiah, who is not the strongest Daedra (I would say Mehrunes Dagon is, followed by Hermaeus Mora, Azura, Molag Bal/Meridia (sometimes one is stronger sometimes the other), then either Namira or Boethiah). And his remains became Malacanth (who is neither Daedra nor Aedra, which raises the question what exactly is he).

Sorry if you've read me saying this before, but it's the only solid evidence of the comparative weakness of Aedra to Daedra (which is established in lore books in Oblivion and Skyrim (probably Morrowind too)).

Aoife32001

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Aoife32001 wrote: »

Consistent in ES lore, the Aedra seem to be far more powerful than the Daedra, arguably.

While most of your post is a decent arguement, and could very well be true, the Aedra are not more powerful than the Daedra. Prior to them creating the universe, they were both equal, both in terms of power and the fact neitehr could be killed.

However when the Aedra created the universe they bound most of their power into it, making them weaker than the Daedra and killable (Aedra can die, Daedra can't).

The second strongest Aedra was Trinimac, and he fell to Boethiah, who is not the strongest Daedra (I would say Mehrunes Dagon is, followed by Hermaeus Mora, Azura, Molag Bal/Meridia (sometimes one is stronger sometimes the other), then either Namira or Boethiah). And his remains became Malacanth (who is neither Daedra nor Aedra, which raises the question what exactly is he).

Sorry if you've read me saying this before, but it's the only solid evidence of the comparative weakness of Aedra to Daedra (which is established in lore books in Oblivion and Skyrim (probably Morrowind too)).

You make a good point. I should have said not Aedra but Akatosh, who, philosophically speaking, seems to have a better metaphysical foundation for exerting power over the Daedra.

Akatosh himself is likely an emanation of Anu (though nothing in lore absolutely confirms this). As such, he is somewhat Anu and yet not Anu. He is removed from Anu and thus weaker than Anu. Yet, Anu is still the force that underlies the very possibility for not only Nirn but, well, everything (including, I argue, Padomay).

While most (all?) ES mythology interprets Anu/Padomay as equal in power and co-eternal, metaphysically speaking Anu is anterior to Padomay in much the same way that in Trinitarianism, God the Father is equal to God the Son and yet the condition for the possibility of the Son's Be-ing. Without a Father, there is no Son, even if both are of equal power. Likewise, without Anu/Stasis, there is no Padomay/Chaos, even if both are presented in equal terms in the mythologies.

Thus, Anu, who underlies Padomay, also underlies the Daedric realms. The Aedra, who can die, nevertheless would merely cease to be emanations of an underlying stasis that is the condition for the possibility of Be-ing at all. The Daedra can only never die because of the heart of Anu (permanence) within themselves and their realms. Akatosh, as an emanation of Anu, carries some of that power and presence, even within the Daedric realms.

While the story of Trinimac's defeat is certainly a solid piece of evidence of the comparative weakness of Aedra and Daedra, it is not the only one--the aforementioned battle between Akatosh and Mehrunes Dagon is another. I think the above understanding of the Anu/Padomay relationship would make sense of the fact that Akatosh, who is an Aedroth (maybe?) and thus killable, defeated Mehrunes Dagon, who cannot die, with (relative) ease at the end of Oblivion. He did so because in spite of his arguably weaker condition temporally-speaking, he is an emanation of the eternal metaphysical permanence that is Anu.

Darkrogue671

What if C-A-T really spelled dog? Akatosh isn't one of the Aedra. He's one of the Eight Divines, the God of Time, and the Father of all of the Divines. As I have some prophetic abilities, a future heir to the Empire will become the avatar of Akatosh in a battle against a Daedric Prince. The victor is a bit cloudy but I see a ray of light in the outcome... literally!

The Aedra are still Daedra. If Akatosh was an Aedra, then all who worshipped the Eight Divines would be considered Daedric worshippers which was frowned upon. Well, except for the Thieves Guild (which doesn't exist) and the Dark Brotherhood (an old tale spun by spurned politicians & businessmen)!

ThatHappyCat

Darkrogue671 wrote: »

What if C-A-T really spelled dog? Akatosh isn't one of the Aedra. He's one of the Eight Divines, the God of Time, and the Father of all of the Divines. As I have some prophetic abilities, a future heir to the Empire will become the avatar of Akatosh in a battle against a Daedric Prince. The victor is a bit cloudy but I see a ray of light in the outcome... literally!

The Aedra are still Daedra. If Akatosh was an Aedra, then all who worshipped the Eight Divines would be considered Daedric worshippers which was frowned upon. Well, except for the Thieves Guild (which doesn't exist) and the Dark Brotherhood (an old tale spun by spurned politicians & businessmen)!

... What?

Darkrogue671

Sheogorath is the most powerful of the Daedra in my opinion. His insanity and neutral disposition keep him from completely laying the rest to waste. He is, quintessentially, the most perfect example of a chaotic neutral I've ever seen.

Aoife32001

Darkrogue671 wrote: »

What if C-A-T really spelled dog? Akatosh isn't one of the Aedra. He's one of the Eight Divines, the God of Time, and the Father of all of the Divines. As I have some prophetic abilities, a future heir to the Empire will become the avatar of Akatosh in a battle against a Daedric Prince. The victor is a bit cloudy but I see a ray of light in the outcome... literally!

The Aedra are still Daedra. If Akatosh was an Aedra, then all who worshipped the Eight Divines would be considered Daedric worshippers which was frowned upon. Well, except for the Thieves Guild (which doesn't exist) and the Dark Brotherhood (an old tale spun by spurned politicians & businessmen)!

There is certainly evidence in mythology that Akatosh is different from the Aedra and Daedra, or at least is a special Aedroth. If the Daedra came from Padomay's blood, and the Aedra came from the mixing of Padomay's and Anu's blood (the Anuad Paraphrased), Akatosh is believed to be the soul of Auri-El who is the soul of Anu. Thus, perhaps the question of the OP is answered, and the valid point @AlexDougherty raised addressed, by Akatosh's unique standing among all the Aedra as the emanation of the soul of Anu the Everything, whose power over Padomay (and thus the Daedra) has already been demonstrated by his defeat of Padomay in myth.

Darkrogue671

You can mix the mythologies from the different races all you want. I suppose one could argue in this world that Allah, Buddha, Jehovah, and such are the same thing. However, when you are talking in regards to pantheons (which in this case we ARE) things get a bit difficult.

Compare the pantheons of Greece, Roman, Nordic, Egypt, etc. they have similarities and differences which make the comparisons arguable. The same, to me, applies here.

LMar

I like your thinking guys. I am not sure I believe Anu underlies all the Deadra but I am willing to believe that Akatosh is unique as he is 2 steps away from Anu and helped all the other spirits crystallise in the beginning. I like your philosophising however and it enriches my thoughts about the mythology.
The fact that the Aedra have now been helping mortal races and in turn being shaped by them (and being mantled by them) may have some effect on this whole argument? The divine spark being inside all the mortals may give them some influence in the affairs of mortals wherever they are

Aeratus

The Daedra are more powerful than the Aedra.

The Aedra rarely exert direct will over nirn. Although Akatosh' power is used several times, his power was already stored into the amulet of kings. That is, the amulet of king is a pre-stored power (and must be recharged after use apparently), and is not his active willpower. Akatosh does not do anything himself, and it is not shown that the Aedra has any active willpower.

The Aedra make two arguable cameos in Morrowind, but it isn't clearly stated, just hinted.

BugCollector

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Aoife32001 wrote: »

Consistent in ES lore, the Aedra seem to be far more powerful than the Daedra, arguably.

While most of your post is a decent arguement, and could very well be true, the Aedra are not more powerful than the Daedra. Prior to them creating the universe, they were both equal, both in terms of power and the fact neitehr could be killed.

However when the Aedra created the universe they bound most of their power into it, making them weaker than the Daedra and killable (Aedra can die, Daedra can't).

The second strongest Aedra was Trinimac, and he fell to Boethiah, who is not the strongest Daedra (I would say Mehrunes Dagon is, followed by Hermaeus Mora, Azura, Molag Bal/Meridia (sometimes one is stronger sometimes the other), then either Namira or Boethiah). And his remains became Malacanth (who is neither Daedra nor Aedra, which raises the question what exactly is he).

Sorry if you've read me saying this before, but it's the only solid evidence of the comparative weakness of Aedra to Daedra (which is established in lore books in Oblivion and Skyrim (probably Morrowind too)).

My top 5:

1. Molag Bal (sphere of domination and all that)
2. Nocturnal (The Ur-daedra, just google it)
3. Sheogorath (a remnant of the once all powerful Jyggallag)
4. Hermaeus Mora (knowledge is power, you know...)
5. Azura (sister of Nocturnal)

Woolenthreads

Darkrogue671 wrote: »

Sheogorath is the most powerful of the Daedra in my opinion. His insanity and neutral disposition keep him from completely laying the rest to waste. He is, quintessentially, the most perfect example of a chaotic neutral I've ever seen.

He was so powerful as Jyggallag that all of the other Daedra banded together to take him out and then curse him with a resurrection spell of insanity.

AlexDougherty

BugCollector wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Aoife32001 wrote: »

Consistent in ES lore, the Aedra seem to be far more powerful than the Daedra, arguably.

While most of your post is a decent arguement, and could very well be true, the Aedra are not more powerful than the Daedra. Prior to them creating the universe, they were both equal, both in terms of power and the fact neitehr could be killed.

However when the Aedra created the universe they bound most of their power into it, making them weaker than the Daedra and killable (Aedra can die, Daedra can't).

The second strongest Aedra was Trinimac, and he fell to Boethiah, who is not the strongest Daedra (I would say Mehrunes Dagon is, followed by Hermaeus Mora, Azura, Molag Bal/Meridia (sometimes one is stronger sometimes the other), then either Namira or Boethiah). And his remains became Malacanth (who is neither Daedra nor Aedra, which raises the question what exactly is he).

Sorry if you've read me saying this before, but it's the only solid evidence of the comparative weakness of Aedra to Daedra (which is established in lore books in Oblivion and Skyrim (probably Morrowind too)).

My top 5:

1. Molag Bal (sphere of domination and all that)
2. Nocturnal (The Ur-daedra, just google it)
3. Sheogorath (a remnant of the once all powerful Jyggallag)
4. Hermaeus Mora (knowledge is power, you know...)
5. Azura (sister of Nocturnal)

Fair enough, My order is all guesswork, only Peryite is known in terms of the the strength of others (since he is officially the weakest).

I still prefer my order, I put Sheogorath outside of it because I haven't a clue about him, and I forgot Hircine, but otherwise I stick to it.

But it's all down to opinion at the moment.

AlexDougherty

Darkrogue671 wrote: »

What if C-A-T really spelled dog? Akatosh isn't one of the Aedra. He's one of the Eight Divines, the God of Time, and the Father of all of the Divines. As I have some prophetic abilities, a future heir to the Empire will become the avatar of Akatosh in a battle against a Daedric Prince. The victor is a bit cloudy but I see a ray of light in the outcome... literally!

The Aedra are still Daedra. If Akatosh was an Aedra, then all who worshipped the Eight Divines would be considered Daedric worshippers which was frowned upon. Well, except for the Thieves Guild (which doesn't exist) and the Dark Brotherhood (an old tale spun by spurned politicians & businessmen)!

What???? No seriously, what????

The Divines are a subset of the Aedra. The eight are a blending of the Elven and Human pantheons, but the Human, eleven and Khajiit pantheons are all Aedra (with some exceptions like Hermaeus Mora who is in the old Nede Pantheon (and still worshipped by the Skaals)).

The Aedra created Nirn and the Mundus, and became killable as a result (but are otherwise immortal)
The Daedra didn't.
That is the ONLY difference.

BugCollector

AlexDougherty wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Aoife32001 wrote: »

Consistent in ES lore, the Aedra seem to be far more powerful than the Daedra, arguably.

While most of your post is a decent arguement, and could very well be true, the Aedra are not more powerful than the Daedra. Prior to them creating the universe, they were both equal, both in terms of power and the fact neitehr could be killed.

However when the Aedra created the universe they bound most of their power into it, making them weaker than the Daedra and killable (Aedra can die, Daedra can't).

The second strongest Aedra was Trinimac, and he fell to Boethiah, who is not the strongest Daedra (I would say Mehrunes Dagon is, followed by Hermaeus Mora, Azura, Molag Bal/Meridia (sometimes one is stronger sometimes the other), then either Namira or Boethiah). And his remains became Malacanth (who is neither Daedra nor Aedra, which raises the question what exactly is he).

Sorry if you've read me saying this before, but it's the only solid evidence of the comparative weakness of Aedra to Daedra (which is established in lore books in Oblivion and Skyrim (probably Morrowind too)).

My top 5:

1. Molag Bal (sphere of domination and all that)
2. Nocturnal (The Ur-daedra, just google it)
3. Sheogorath (a remnant of the once all powerful Jyggallag)
4. Hermaeus Mora (knowledge is power, you know...)
5. Azura (sister of Nocturnal)

Fair enough, My order is all guesswork, only Peryite is known in terms of the the strength of others (since he is officially the weakest).

I still prefer my order, I put Sheogorath outside of it because I haven't a clue about him, and I forgot Hircine, but otherwise I stick to it.

But it's all down to opinion at the moment.

That's right. We can only guess who's the strongest. Also, with ESO taking place 1000 years before Skyrim, the balances of power between the Princes could be a lot different than in Skyrim, Oblivion and Morrowind.