Was the Veteran System a Mistake?

Firellight

In all honesty, do you think ESO would have been better off with the single Veteran rank (level 50)? Consider any and all factors you can think of.

Cuyler

Yes, and this has been debated and resolved. The Champion system is getting rid of VR. Constellations (aka. champion points) will be out in 1.6 and VR will be removed in 1.7 or 1.8.

Firellight

I don't remember this being discussed. I bet the champion system is still another stat buff though. I guess my question should have been, "Do you think that level 50 should be the highest rank?)

EDIT: Just read about the Champion system. I hope that it works out. Being able to snare when bashing seems a little overkill imo, considering it's been an exploit since launch.

Bloodfang

Veteran System = Veteran points -> Veteran Ranks, Access to other factions
(more vertical progression)

Champion System = XP points -> Probably Champion Ranks, Still access to other factions, + points to spend in passive skill tree
(more horizontal progression)

I wouldn't say it was a complete failure. Access to other factions is something I love.

AlnilamE

I think your question is actually "Do you think level 50 should be the end of Character Progression?"

I don't see why?

I really don't mind the Veteran system and I don't mind them changing it to the Champion System.

But it would be very boring if your character progression ended before you even finished your own faction's story line and there was no more oportunity to unlock skills and such unless you respecced all the time.

Alphashado

Firellight wrote: »

I don't remember this being discussed.

o.O

Firellight

AlnilamE wrote: »

I think your question is actually "Do you think level 50 should be the end of Character Progression?"

But it would be very boring if your character progression ended before you even finished your own faction's story line and there was no more oportunity to unlock skills and such unless you respecced all the time.

I'm pretty sure that you can get skill points elsewhere than leveling up. What I mean is the HP/MP/SP upgrades from ranking up in veteran, and the gear.

Cuyler

What is the Champion System?

This new system will be released in phases (four in total). (EDIT) We will be in Phase 2 with the release of update 5, and Phase 4 will be the complete removal of the Veteran Rank system. There will be an overlap between the Veteran Rank system and the Champion System.

When the removal of the Veteran Ranks happen, the max level with be lvl50 and any xp gains past that will be towards champion points. They have implemented a tracking system that is already tracking our progress, so those of us who are Veteran Rank are already earning Champion System Points.

Earning Champion Points

Once you obtain level 50 you’ll be granted access to the Champion System where you’ll be able to obtain Champion Points (2100? total/700 per tree) which you can place into the constellations of your choice.

You’ll earn these points by doing virtually anything in the game that would typically yield XP, killing monsters, questing, PvP, etc. Once you’ve earned enough XP, you'll be granted a Champion Point that you can place. You must follow one simple rule. You have to go around the sky in a clockwise order. What this means is your first point MUST be spent within the Warrior constellation, than your second point into the Thief, and your third point into the Mage.

Each section of the sky (The Warrior, The Thief, and The Mage) has three separate trees within them that you can put points into. For example, if you’re a tank there is a spot in The Mage for added spell resistances. Every section of the sky offers added benefits to every role within the game. So your points won’t ever go into a tree that isn’t providing you some sort of direct benefit.

Each tree has four abilities you can select from, offering you a total of 12 options per constellation (The Warrior, The Mage, and The Thief). As you place points into these trees you’ll unlock added bonuses that are passives and don’t require you to spend points on them, and each tree has four added passives.

Paul Sage mentioned that it would take (approximately) an average time of one hour per champion point.

Account Wide

The Champion System is an account wide system. Once you’ve progressed one character to level 50 the champion system is unlocked for the account. Only level 50 characters will be able to earn points towards additional champion points but characters that are not level 50 can still reap the rewards of it.

For example, if I have a character that is level 50 and has earned 500 champion points, all my characters will have 500 champion points available to them. Each character can spend those points individually, to create a build that is unique to their character. The points are account wide, but the allocation of them is unique to each character.

One thing to keep in mind is no matter how many level 50s you have, you’ll earn champion point experience at the same rate as someone who has only one.

The Champion Experience Points is account wide (but as mentioned only level 50s can earn it) and all the earned experience will go into a large pool that encompasses the whole account. In order to earn an additional champion point the account needs to earn the required experience amount.

Enlightenment

From the moment you log off your level 50 characters and either play a character that is below level 50 or just log off for the night your account will get bestowed with enlightenment. This is a “buff” of sorts that increases the amount of Champion Experience you’ll earn for a short while. To compare this to something that players might be familiar with, it is “Rested Experience”.

This buff is placed on the Champion Experience Pool so it is account wide. It doesn’t matter which level 50 you wish to play, it’ll be earning points for the account just as it would normally, just at a slightly faster rate. This system is to help those that can’t play as often as other players. To keep them on the bell curve of progression instead of leaving them at the wayside.

EDIT: For more depth

Dominoid wrote: »

If you are interested in some of the details of the Champion System, be sure to listen to the audio recording of the Champion System Portion of the ESO Guild Summit 2014.

The first thing EVERYONE will notice when the Champion System releases is that all of their stat numbers will be multiplied by ten. That means 2,500 health becomes 25,000, or 400 frost resistance will become 4,000. This is to add "granularity" to the system. They want the player to be able to SEE the effects of their choices. So say if someone chooses a passive that increase frost resistance by 1%, it will be easier to see that change. Without the multiplier, some changes wouldn't be shown because of rounding and the player could become discouraged or feel like they wasted a point. This is gonna happen, so we should accept it.

There are three constellation groups in the Champion System one for each resource pool - The Warrior for Health, The Thief for Stamina and The Mage for Magicka.

Each constellation group has 3 sub-constellations accounting for a total of 9 constellations. That breakdown is as follows:

• Warrior (health)
  • Steed
  • Lady
  • Lord
• Thief (stamina)
  • Tower
  • Lover
  • Shadow
• Mage (magicka)
  • Ritual
  • Atronach
  • Apprentice

As mentioned, each sub-constellation has 4 passives that can be spec'ed into. In addition to these four passives each, each constellation also has four additional passives that are unlocked and strengthened as more and more points are placed into a constellation.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=aYbl5B8R9-E&t=46m0s

For example, after you place 10 Champion Points total in the Apprentice constellation you automatically unlock and get the benefits of a new passive called Extraction Boost which increases the likelihood to extract better material. Continuing to place Champion Points into the Apprentice will continue to strengthen this new passive automatically. You do not place Champion Points into this "second-tier" of passives. The second-tier is unlocked automatically as you place more Champion Points in a constellation. These second-tier passives are initially unlocked at 10, 30, 50 and 100 points in a constellation.

This brings the total amount of passives per constellation to 8 for each constellation - 4 that you spec into and four that unlock automatically. This means that a total of 72 new passives are being added by the Champion System.

A Champion Point is earned after a still-to-be-determined amount of XP has been received by the player. That Champion Point can then be placed into the Champion System constellations, but there are some rules as to how they get placed.

CHAMPION POINTS ARE PLACED INTO THE CHAMPION SYSTEM ON A HEALTH-STAMINA-MAGICKA ROTATION

Let's dig into that statement a little more. The first Champion Point you earn MUST BE placed into the Warrior (health) constellation group. You can place it into either the Steed, Lady or Lord constellation. You choose. That gives you twelve options - four each. After you make your choice, the Warrior constellations will "rotate" and your next point must then be placed into the Thief (stamina) group. Your next point then obviously gets placed in the Mage (magicka) group. The rotation then continues in this manner in perpetuity.

There are two main reasons for this. First is to frankly slow the player's progression so they can't max any one stat too quickly. The second is to help with player diversification. Take it as you will, but that is how the system will work. This means that if you want to max out 700 points in Light Armor you will need to earn 2100 Champion Points because of the rotation system.

ZOS went out of their way to mention that each constellation group, Warrior-Thief-Mage, has passives that make sense for each play style (holy trinity). So there will be something for Tanks in the Warrior, Thief and Mage constellations. Same for each of the play styles so it's not as restrictive as it seems.

Placing points into the same passive over and over has diminishing returns. What does that mean? The example used was the first point you place into Light Armor may grant you a 1% increase in armor rating, but placing the 40th point into Light Armor might only grant you a 0.1% increase in armor (another reason for increasing all stats ten fold). This mechanic helps to keep players somewhat close in raw numbers but also means that diversifying your Champion Point allocation may yield the best overall results.

There will be a respec mechanism in place when the Champion System releases. It is quite robust and will not require you to click your mouse button 1,000 or more times to perform a respec. There is information on the respec process in the full audio above.

Wanna learn the future? - 12+ Hours of Audio from Guild Summit 2014

BBSooner

Absolutely a mistake, ZOS agrees and is removing it.

ers101284b14_ESO

It actually was not a mistake. Players during beta wanted to do everything on one level and still have character progression. Given time constraints between that and release vet system is the best they could do under the circumstances. It just goes to show how much ZOS listens and how maybe they shouldn't listen as much.

Audigy

Cuyler wrote: »

Yes, and this has been debated and resolved. The Champion system is getting rid of VR. Constellations (aka. champion points) will be out in 1.6 and VR will be removed in 1.7 or 1.8.

So instead of grinding VR´s you now grind CL´s and this is a difference?

No offence but nothing will change. People will not let you in their groups without high CL´s, just like now without VR 14.

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

It actually was not a mistake. Players during beta wanted to do everything on one level and still have character progression. Given time constraints between that and release vet system is the best they could do under the circumstances. It just goes to show how much ZOS listens and how maybe they shouldn't listen as much.

The execution was the problem and that many non ES fans joined after release. We in Beta loved the system, we could play a single char and still see the story of all factions.

It also gave us progress after reaching max level (50), without feeling forced to raid the same dungeon all day for new loot.

Fun is, that with the CS people will have to grind those 500 levels there instead of 10 VR´s like on release. Sadly those 500 levels will be very repetitive dungeon or mob grinding and no story involved.

If they already hated VR then they must hate CS even more. I see a big bubble explode with 1.6 when people realize that.

Those passives that we gain by unlocked Champion Levels will soon become mandatory especially in pvp and raid content. I see the threads coming already where people complain that a higher player killed them and how bad this is ...

AlnilamE

Firellight wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

I think your question is actually "Do you think level 50 should be the end of Character Progression?"

But it would be very boring if your character progression ended before you even finished your own faction's story line and there was no more oportunity to unlock skills and such unless you respecced all the time.

I'm pretty sure that you can get skill points elsewhere than leveling up. What I mean is the HP/MP/SP upgrades from ranking up in veteran, and the gear.

I don't really see those as different. Anyway, they will still be in the Champion System, it will be up to players how to distribute their points.

ers101284b14_ESO

Yeah unfortunately the complains are gonna happen either way. But from the way it sounds with the CS it's not gonna be like it is now where a VR1 is gonna get trampled by a VR14 because of level.

The way they are talking its gonna close the gap and not make it feel like there's such an advantage even having more points. Also with the rested XP bonus it should help people who dont play as much be a le to catch up quickly.

Also with the champ system it seems like your not forced to do the other factions. I'm kind hoping the take out the main quest line once you finish yours or at least rewrite it so your not actually doing the same thing.

Either way I'm excited for it and can't wait for the patch that patches the patches that fixed the fix they do after th champ system.

Cuyler

Audigy wrote: »

SNIP

Those passives that we gain by unlocked Champion Levels will soon become mandatory especially in pvp and raid content. I see the threads coming already where people complain that a higher player killed them and how bad this is ...

Can you imagine the QQing when someone has 700 CPs and places the 701th point into a passive that isn't compatible with the cookie cutter endgame build requiring a respecc each time?

With what? ~2100 CPs total the respecc cost would need to be like 3-4g a CP to be comparable to what we have now.

Edit: They mentioned 1CPs/hr so at 2100 CPs total that's 87.5 days or ~3 months and that's if you played 24 hours a day to reach max level. Those at v14 will get points out of the gate but it's still going to essentially be another lvl cap increase.

BBSooner

Audigy wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Yes, and this has been debated and resolved. The Champion system is getting rid of VR. Constellations (aka. champion points) will be out in 1.6 and VR will be removed in 1.7 or 1.8.

So instead of grinding VR´s you now grind CL´s and this is a difference?

No offence but nothing will change. People will not let you in their groups without high CL´s, just like now without VR 14.

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

It actually was not a mistake. Players during beta wanted to do everything on one level and still have character progression. Given time constraints between that and release vet system is the best they could do under the circumstances. It just goes to show how much ZOS listens and how maybe they shouldn't listen as much.

The execution was the problem and that many non ES fans joined after release. We in Beta loved the system, we could play a single char and still see the story of all factions.

It also gave us progress after reaching max level (50), without feeling forced to raid the same dungeon all day for new loot.

Fun is, that with the CS people will have to grind those 500 levels there instead of 10 VR´s like on release. Sadly those 500 levels will be very repetitive dungeon or mob grinding and no story involved.

If they already hated VR then they must hate CS even more. I see a big bubble explode with 1.6 when people realize that.

Those passives that we gain by unlocked Champion Levels will soon become mandatory especially in pvp and raid content. I see the threads coming already where people complain that a higher player killed them and how bad this is ...

Shrug, I would say I'm more of an ES than mmo fan and I hated the prospect of the VR system, Even more so when ZOS announced how it was proposed in beta. The feeling of "progress at max level" you say it provides really doesn't make sense to me - level 50 is not max level under the VR system. Otherwise content would require level 50, not a VR cap.

Conversely, we likely won't see content with a "champion level 1300 required" as a gate before we can even attempt it. Level 50 will be Mac level, with horizontal character progression that will benefit all of your characters.

I also don't really understand how you assume that champion levels will provide no story - only dungeon or mob grinding. They aren't taking away our ability to cross in to other factions, you still have the same amount of story as before, and it will continue to grow as more zones are released.

Neizir

Audigy wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Yes, and this has been debated and resolved. The Champion system is getting rid of VR. Constellations (aka. champion points) will be out in 1.6 and VR will be removed in 1.7 or 1.8.

So instead of grinding VR´s you now grind CL´s and this is a difference?

No offence but nothing will change. People will not let you in their groups without high CL´s, just like now without VR 14.

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

It actually was not a mistake. Players during beta wanted to do everything on one level and still have character progression. Given time constraints between that and release vet system is the best they could do under the circumstances. It just goes to show how much ZOS listens and how maybe they shouldn't listen as much.

The execution was the problem and that many non ES fans joined after release. We in Beta loved the system, we could play a single char and still see the story of all factions.

It also gave us progress after reaching max level (50), without feeling forced to raid the same dungeon all day for new loot.

Fun is, that with the CS people will have to grind those 500 levels there instead of 10 VR´s like on release. Sadly those 500 levels will be very repetitive dungeon or mob grinding and no story involved.

If they already hated VR then they must hate CS even more. I see a big bubble explode with 1.6 when people realize that.

Those passives that we gain by unlocked Champion Levels will soon become mandatory especially in pvp and raid content. I see the threads coming already where people complain that a higher player killed them and how bad this is ...

@Audigy There aren't going to be any champion levels...the level cap is being set to 50 with no veteran ranks.

AlexDougherty

I've only just started Veteran system, but I don't think it was a mistake, but it did seem unpopular. For my money the only change that was needed was the attribute and skill points for each VR level.

That for me fixed any and all problems with the system.

Oh well, lets try the champion system and see how that works (or doesn't).

OrphanHelgen

Other games like wow, diablo and even borderlands, get updated with f example 10 new levels. Maybe this is hard to do with veteran ranks active. Maybe one day, an update will be released where max level is 60 instead of 50, and new and more skills :-). Maybe even 6 skills on skillbare + ultimate. I dont think eso will screw things up now. They cant afford screwing up these upcoming patches. I think eso will become better and better.

BBSooner

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

It actually was not a mistake. Players during beta wanted to do everything on one level and still have character progression. Given time constraints between that and release vet system is the best they could do under the circumstances. It just goes to show how much ZOS listens and how maybe they shouldn't listen as much.

Fair enough, I would say that something that can be described as "best they could do under the time constraints" when it is in the process of being removed for being wildly unpopular could be considered a mistake, though. Certainly a larger mistake than confining a character to a single faction for the time being and opening up the regions in update 1 or 2 after a more fleshed out system is developed.

Audigy

Neizir wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Yes, and this has been debated and resolved. The Champion system is getting rid of VR. Constellations (aka. champion points) will be out in 1.6 and VR will be removed in 1.7 or 1.8.

So instead of grinding VR´s you now grind CL´s and this is a difference?

No offence but nothing will change. People will not let you in their groups without high CL´s, just like now without VR 14.

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

It actually was not a mistake. Players during beta wanted to do everything on one level and still have character progression. Given time constraints between that and release vet system is the best they could do under the circumstances. It just goes to show how much ZOS listens and how maybe they shouldn't listen as much.

The execution was the problem and that many non ES fans joined after release. We in Beta loved the system, we could play a single char and still see the story of all factions.

It also gave us progress after reaching max level (50), without feeling forced to raid the same dungeon all day for new loot.

Fun is, that with the CS people will have to grind those 500 levels there instead of 10 VR´s like on release. Sadly those 500 levels will be very repetitive dungeon or mob grinding and no story involved.

If they already hated VR then they must hate CS even more. I see a big bubble explode with 1.6 when people realize that.

Those passives that we gain by unlocked Champion Levels will soon become mandatory especially in pvp and raid content. I see the threads coming already where people complain that a higher player killed them and how bad this is ...

@Audigy There aren't going to be any champion levels...the level cap is being set to 50 with no veteran ranks.

But they said they have 500? Is this no longer the case then?

I always though that we can gain these levels by xp, so that we grind mobs or dungeons just like now. Once we gained a level we can invest a point into the zodiac map with warrior etc.

Sure we don't have a VR visible in our name anymore, yet we do have those points and I am sure they will become mandatory. Maybe not to enter a dungeon like now but a group.

At WS the same thing happened. People who didn't have many elder passives unlocked were simply put rejected from groups or guilds and faced big disadvantages in pvp.

How will ZO balance the problem that people with many unlocked passives don't wipe the floor with those who have not?

Mettaricana

Firellight wrote: »

I don't remember this being discussed. I bet the champion system is still another stat buff though. I guess my question should have been, "Do you think that level 50 should be the highest rank?)

EDIT: Just read about the Champion system. I hope that it works out. Being able to snare when bashing seems a little overkill imo, considering it's been an exploit since launch.

lvl 50 is fine for now with champion and base level working together expansions and level caps can be added easily with new level 60-70 zones and they can keeep the gradual level progression rather than the hike from 250k exp to 1 mil needed to level for vets that way it wont stagger or murder our progression into a grinding crawl

SRIBES

Simple answer:
YES

timidobserver

I think the major selling point is that the difference between a V1 character and a V14 character is massive. Under no circumstances can a V1 player compete in V14 content.

On the other hand, the Champion System is being sold as a system that will allow a low champion point character to compete to some degree in all content. High champion point players will just have an edge, but not an all encompassing insurmountable advantage like the current system.

Sure, the elitist people that are looking to be in the top 3 on the trials leaderboards will be picky about Champion Points, but those guilds that just want complete trials and be in the top 100 on the weekly will probably take anyone that is competent and able to perform adequately.

Audigy

timidobserver wrote: »

I think the major selling point is that the difference between a V1 character and a V14 character is massive. Under no circumstances can a V1 player compete in V14 content.

On the other hand, the Champion System is being sold as a system that will allow a low champion point character to compete to some degree in all content. High champion point players will just have an edge, but not an all encompassing insurmountable advantage like the current system.

Sure, the elitist people that are looking to be in the top 3 on the trials leaderboards will be picky about Champion Points, but those guilds that just want complete trials and be in the top 100 on the weekly will probably take anyone that is competent and able to perform adequately.

I hope you are right with that.

It would be horrible if someone who spent 50 points would already dominate someone who spend 10.

ers101284b14_ESO

Audigy wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

I think the major selling point is that the difference between a V1 character and a V14 character is massive. Under no circumstances can a V1 player compete in V14 content.

On the other hand, the Champion System is being sold as a system that will allow a low champion point character to compete to some degree in all content. High champion point players will just have an edge, but not an all encompassing insurmountable advantage like the current system.

Sure, the elitist people that are looking to be in the top 3 on the trials leaderboards will be picky about Champion Points, but those guilds that just want complete trials and be in the top 100 on the weekly will probably take anyone that is competent and able to perform adequately.

I hope you are right with that.

It would be horrible if someone who spent 50 points would already dominate someone who spend 10.

They way they are explaining it is your gonna have 3 constellations per stat. So 3 in stamina 3 in health 3 in magic. From there you get to pick 1 passive in 1 constellation then it changes to the next. So you get to choose one of the 3 in health. After you put that point in then next you have to do stamina then next you have to do magic then back to health again.

Also the way it seems to wok is the more points you put in the less you get for each point. So say you put it in a health buff, well the first time you get a 5% buff but the 10th point you only get .01% buff. So you are will have more of a buff than someone who only put in 1 point but its not gonna be so huge that you have this super huge advantage.

That's how I'm understanding it.

liquid_wolf

Audigy wrote: »

I AM AFRAID

Make sure you get on the test realm when they make it available to give your feedback and let everyone here know what you are encountering.

Most of your post was pretty much fear and concern over a system that EVERYONE would rather have than the VR system.

It probably won't be perfect, but based on the design I am looking at I like what is being planned. I definitely prefer it to over what we have now.

Bloodfang

Neizir wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Yes, and this has been debated and resolved. The Champion system is getting rid of VR. Constellations (aka. champion points) will be out in 1.6 and VR will be removed in 1.7 or 1.8.

So instead of grinding VR´s you now grind CL´s and this is a difference?

No offence but nothing will change. People will not let you in their groups without high CL´s, just like now without VR 14.

ers101284b14_ESO wrote: »

It actually was not a mistake. Players during beta wanted to do everything on one level and still have character progression. Given time constraints between that and release vet system is the best they could do under the circumstances. It just goes to show how much ZOS listens and how maybe they shouldn't listen as much.

The execution was the problem and that many non ES fans joined after release. We in Beta loved the system, we could play a single char and still see the story of all factions.

It also gave us progress after reaching max level (50), without feeling forced to raid the same dungeon all day for new loot.

Fun is, that with the CS people will have to grind those 500 levels there instead of 10 VR´s like on release. Sadly those 500 levels will be very repetitive dungeon or mob grinding and no story involved.

If they already hated VR then they must hate CS even more. I see a big bubble explode with 1.6 when people realize that.

Those passives that we gain by unlocked Champion Levels will soon become mandatory especially in pvp and raid content. I see the threads coming already where people complain that a higher player killed them and how bad this is ...

@Audigy There aren't going to be any champion levels...the level cap is being set to 50 with no veteran ranks.

I'm pretty sure they've said at some point, that there will be champion ranks, based on how many passive points you've put in.

Also gear need to be gated behind something.

Zorrashi

Initially, after you reached lvl50+ content all you had available was essentially just PvP and trials (or was it just PvP?), no Cadwell's Almanac existed. Hence the VR system was born with the ability to visit other alliance zones and do their corresponding quests.

It was a "quick fix" if you will. But it was desperately needed if they wished to maintain a great portion of the player base at the then-endgame whom were largely not interested in the end-game available at the time. But still, VR content still held a significantly noticeable increase in difficulty in comparison to the pre-lvl50 experience. This was in order to help facilitate/'train' players to encourage more group play for the planned group-oriented content. However, by large player demand, they scaled down the VR levels to be more on par with the pre-lvl 50 experience. By some time around this point, I think they began to realize that the players wanted something different for anything after lvl 50.

Then at some point, the idea of the champion system was created and is now in the process of getting created/implemented. It is meant to be a replacement for the somewhat rushed VR system that at the same time offers the player an advancement/progression system that they believe benefits the game at large.

I would call VR a "miscalculated plan" and the upcoming champion system as "a calculated correction of the plan".

Audigy

liquid_wolf wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

I AM AFRAID

Make sure you get on the test realm when they make it available to give your feedback and let everyone here know what you are encountering.

Most of your post was pretty much fear and concern over a system that EVERYONE would rather have than the VR system.

It probably won't be perfect, but based on the design I am looking at I like what is being planned. I definitely prefer it to over what we have now.

To be honest, I am just more suspicious than you are. Nobody of us has even played the CS yet, still its glorified by many. This reminds me so much about Craglorn once, it was hyped too so were other things like Cyrodil and today people realize it wasn't all that perfect.

I have serious doubts about the CS, especially after I saw a similar system messing up other MMOs increasing a huge gap between new and old players.

Time will tell,

but to be a blind believer is never good.

Leeric

Obviously....

PBpsy

It was a mistake that they bowed down to the whiners and decided to change it. The mess that the chump system will be is going to be almost certainly unbearable.