So why are dungeons so... scripted?

Merlin13KAGL

Gidorick wrote: »

I wish each dungeon would have an "Explorer's Mode" that has the mobs just randomly wandering about without their little assigned-spots. That would be pretty cool.

@Gidorick , that would be awesome, so long as they fix the insta-semi-reset that sends them running back and forth to 'home base' when they get out of a certain area.

I liked the feature Oblivion put in place - if something was out to get you, it would pursue to the ends of the earth. It wasn't enough to be just a certain distance away or on the other side of a door.

It would allow pulls to be useful for getting past some things: Player A distracts the enemies while the rest move in position behind.

It would also force you to pay more attention to your surroundings, aggro 25 things on the way from point A to point B? "Oh look! It's a parade!"

Elloa

Gidorick wrote: »

I wish each dungeon would have an "Explorer's Mode" that has the mobs just randomly wandering about without their little assigned-spots. That would be pretty cool.

This is indeed a great idea. This would also propose a nice solution for players that wish to experiment the Dungeon content but with one or two friends, and do not wish to face a challenge. This would also allow the devellopers to not nerf the current content as there would be content for super casual players.

I love the Dungeon in ESO, as they are right now.
But I'd not mind some randomness included aswell. I know it's possible because some games have done it previously. WOW in some instances such as "Karazhan", the "Prison in Dalaran" or the "Trial of the Crusader" raids, players would face some different set up of bosses which add a bit of variety. Wildstar was also doing this. I suppose it's not too complexe to put in place.

• Patrolling mini-bosses walking arround and stopping at various place in the Dungeon.
• Bosses that could have different adds, with different abilities forcing players to adapt their strategies
• Some room that could contain or not a certain boss. (Dungeon contain 10 different bosses, but you only face a random choice of 5 bosses by run)

.

Thechemicals

One day im going to actually find out what these dungeon stories are about.

Elloa

Thechemicals wrote: »

One day im going to actually find out what these dungeon stories are about.

Check this thread >>> Dungeons Story Videos - For those that had to skip<<<

Rune_Relic

But then you would even have the elites crying the content is too hard because they cant learn the (random) mechanical sequence. It would cost them 1000s of gems instead of 100s and they still wouldnt make any progress. With a 50-50 chance and no better.

This is a major issue. I myself like random content and the ...
I want to go into a dungeon with my group and have NO freaking idea what's going to happen. I want to be afraid to open that door actually, so much so that we pre-buff our tank and send her in first... you know.. like in the game's trailer video. ...too.

I want to hear footsteps/whispers around the corner...whispering voices that cant be seen. How many, why are they whispering, am I entering and ambush or just a guard on patrol ? I want the suspense and trepidation to kill me before I enter the room.

But they arent compatible as there are two types of users.
The min/maxers want it all planned prepped predictable and done. = I crossed my t's and dotted my i's = I win.
They then wipe dungeon in 25% of the time and tell everyone else the content is too easy and L2P.
The questers want it random and unknown and 50% luck = 50% win/lose.

Thechemicals

Elloa wrote: »

Thechemicals wrote: »

One day im going to actually find out what these dungeon stories are about.

Check this thread >>> Dungeons Story Videos - For those that had to skip<<<

You sir, are my new best friend.

Shunravi

Rune_Relic wrote: »

But then you would even have the elites crying the content is too hard because they cant learn the (random) mechanical sequence. It would cost them 1000s of gems instead of 100s and they still wouldnt make any progress. With a 50-50 chance and no better.

This is a major issue. I myself like random content and the ...
I want to go into a dungeon with my group and have NO freaking idea what's going to happen. I want to be afraid to open that door actually, so much so that we pre-buff our tank and send her in first... you know.. like in the game's trailer video. ...too.

I want to hear footsteps on arounfd the corner...whispering voices that cant be seen. I want the suspense and trepidation to kill me before I enter the room.

But they arent compatible as there are two types of users.
The min/maxers want it all planned prepped predictable and done. = I crossed my t's and dotted my i's = I win.
They then wipe in 25% of the time and tell everyone else the content is too easy and L2P.
The questers want it random and unknown and 50% luck = 50% win/lose.

What's gem cost? I wouldn't think I would have to charge my weapons that much....

But all kidding asside, it would be great to have stuff that isn't so predictable. One of the funnest things about first learning an instance is the learning curve itself. Adapting and rising to meet an objective. Randomization would make that last (a bit) longer.

The reason you want it is the same as the reason I do. It would be awesome if I could not predict what was around the next corner. If I had to actually pay attention instead of watching a movie. Because, once you know the instance, it's too dang easy.

Sindala

Randomize mob placement so they don't just spawn in the same locations every time you run the dungeon. People quickly 'learn' all the safe areas of dungeons and how and with what to kill mobs. Make it random.

Random = exciting.

Imagine grouping up and entering to find the Boss sat right there waiting for you, "omg quick form up......OOoooOoooo.....bugger". lol
Keep the loot chest at the end though so you still gotta work thru it

Ok you may get wiped out on occasion but that's the point, make it so that you don't know the outcome before entering.

nb, we must be mentally linked Gidorick as you posted my thoughts as I was writing the post. lol

Shunravi

Sindala wrote: »

Randomize mob placement so they don't just spawn in the same locations every time you run the dungeon. People quickly 'learn' all the safe areas of dungeons and how and with what to kill mobs. Make it random.

Random = exciting.

Imagine grouping up and entering to find the Boss sat right there waiting for you, "omg quick form up......OOoooOoooo.....bugger". lol
Keep the loot chest at the end though so you still gotta work thru it

Ok you may get wiped out on occasion but that's the point, make it so that you don't know the outcome before entering.

That would be awesome.

Merlin13KAGL

Rune_Relic wrote: »

But then you would even have the elites crying the content is too hard because they cant learn the (random) mechanical sequence. It would cost them 1000s of gems instead of 100s and they still wouldnt make any progress. With a 50-50 chance and no better.

This is a major issue. I myself like random content and the ...
I want to go into a dungeon with my group and have NO freaking idea what's going to happen. I want to be afraid to open that door actually, so much so that we pre-buff our tank and send her in first... you know.. like in the game's trailer video. ...too.

I want to hear footsteps/whispers around the corner...whispering voices that cant be seen. How many, why are they whispering, am I entering and ambush or just a guard on patrol ? I want the suspense and trepidation to kill me before I enter the room.

But they arent compatible as there are two types of users.
The min/maxers want it all planned prepped predictable and done. = I crossed my t's and dotted my i's = I win.
They then wipe dungeon in 25% of the time and tell everyone else the content is too easy and L2P.
The questers want it random and unknown and 50% luck = 50% win/lose.

@Rune_Relic‌ , that's certainly something the standalone's had down. You entered dungeons and ruins with caution... It felt menacing. You expected to potentially get in over your head, and quickly.

Dungeons felt like dungeons.

I don't know if I want a 50% chance of dying, perhaps relative to level, etc. Oblivion's cave-ins that would occur, complete with screen shake forewarning was a nice touch. Traps other than floor spikes. (What happened to room-sized Ayleid traps that either smashed you against the ceiling or lowered you onto spikes?

I'd like to see blood splatter and be nervous, not just think it commonplace.

Right now, it's just not as intimidating when you hear the NPC's "Shoot...him...with...an...arr...ow."

On the flip side, an aggro'd monster should be an aggro'd monster...I should be able to grab a few 'friends' and go rolling past that gang of bandits having dinner in the middle of a cave. "Here's something for you to do, guys!"

Environmental should go both ways - NPC's should be able to trip on the rock behind them. They should reach a point of self-induced fear (or bravery).

How about the occasional bonus boss - you know, the one that interrupts their dinner and your fight and forces all of you to temporarily align? (Think balrog, in LOTR movie...)

Much left to be expanded on. The subtle things can make a world of difference.

Thechemicals wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

Check this thread >>> Dungeons Story Videos - For those that had to skip<<<

You sir, are my new best friend.

@Thechemicals , that sir is actually a ma'am...

Shunravi

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

But then you would even have the elites crying the content is too hard because they cant learn the (random) mechanical sequence. It would cost them 1000s of gems instead of 100s and they still wouldnt make any progress. With a 50-50 chance and no better.

This is a major issue. I myself like random content and the ...
I want to go into a dungeon with my group and have NO freaking idea what's going to happen. I want to be afraid to open that door actually, so much so that we pre-buff our tank and send her in first... you know.. like in the game's trailer video. ...too.

I want to hear footsteps/whispers around the corner...whispering voices that cant be seen. How many, why are they whispering, am I entering and ambush or just a guard on patrol ? I want the suspense and trepidation to kill me before I enter the room.

But they arent compatible as there are two types of users.
The min/maxers want it all planned prepped predictable and done. = I crossed my t's and dotted my i's = I win.
They then wipe dungeon in 25% of the time and tell everyone else the content is too easy and L2P.
The questers want it random and unknown and 50% luck = 50% win/lose.

@Rune_Relic‌ , that's certainly something the standalone's had down. You entered dungeons and ruins with caution... It felt menacing. You expected to potentially get in over your head, and quickly.

Dungeons felt like dungeons.

I don't know if I want a 50% chance of dying, perhaps relative to level, etc. Oblivion's cave-ins that would occur, complete with screen shake forewarning was a nice touch. Traps other than floor spikes. (What happened to room-sized Ayleid traps that either smashed you against the ceiling or lowered you onto spikes?

I'd like to see blood splatter and be nervous, not just think it commonplace.

Right now, it's just not as intimidating when you hear the NPC's "Shoot...him...with...an...arr...ow."

On the flip side, an aggro'd monster should be an aggro'd monster...I should be able to grab a few 'friends' and go rolling past that gang of bandits having dinner in the middle of a cave. "Here's something for you to do, guys!"

Environmental should go both ways - NPC's should be able to trip on the rock behind them. They should reach a point of self-induced fear (or bravery).

How about the occasional bonus boss - you know, the one that interrupts their dinner and your fight and forces all of you to temporarily align? (Think balrog, in LOTR movie...)

Much left to be expanded on. The subtle things can make a world of difference.

Thechemicals wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

Check this thread >>> Dungeons Story Videos - For those that had to skip<<<

You sir, are my new best friend.

@Thechemicals , that sir is actually a ma'am...

I miss smashy Ayleid smash pillars.

But the bravery/fear system could be really fun to work with. It could scale with distance from spawn as well as the number of mobs nearby. If an npc reaches a high fear level, it could use some sort of escape mechanic or CC and attempt to go for help. It could even pull a boss to you. I have seen something like this occasionally already, but it could be expanded on. I wonder how the dynamics of the fights would be with it....

They attempted something like the miniboss with their 'bannermen' and things like the ogrim in CoH. it still could be better though.

I love dynamic systems. Even if the overall difficulty doesn't change much, having slightly different things per encounter would make them more interesting. (Like the CoH ogrim which spawn their two adds randomly of the three variants.)

Thechemicals

Thechemicals wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

Check this thread >>> Dungeons Story Videos - For those that had to skip<<<

You sir, are my new best friend.

@Thechemicals , that sir is actually a ma'am...



[/quote]

Oh that girl. Yeah i asked her if she wanted to be my girl.

Rune_Relic

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

But then you would even have the elites crying the content is too hard because they cant learn the (random) mechanical sequence. It would cost them 1000s of gems instead of 100s and they still wouldnt make any progress. With a 50-50 chance and no better.

This is a major issue. I myself like random content and the ...
I want to go into a dungeon with my group and have NO freaking idea what's going to happen. I want to be afraid to open that door actually, so much so that we pre-buff our tank and send her in first... you know.. like in the game's trailer video. ...too.

I want to hear footsteps/whispers around the corner...whispering voices that cant be seen. How many, why are they whispering, am I entering and ambush or just a guard on patrol ? I want the suspense and trepidation to kill me before I enter the room.

But they arent compatible as there are two types of users.
The min/maxers want it all planned prepped predictable and done. = I crossed my t's and dotted my i's = I win.
They then wipe dungeon in 25% of the time and tell everyone else the content is too easy and L2P.
The questers want it random and unknown and 50% luck = 50% win/lose.

@Rune_Relic‌ , that's certainly something the standalone's had down. You entered dungeons and ruins with caution... It felt menacing. You expected to potentially get in over your head, and quickly.

Dungeons felt like dungeons.

I don't know if I want a 50% chance of dying, perhaps relative to level, etc. Oblivion's cave-ins that would occur, complete with screen shake forewarning was a nice touch. Traps other than floor spikes. (What happened to room-sized Ayleid traps that either smashed you against the ceiling or lowered you onto spikes?

I'd like to see blood splatter and be nervous, not just think it commonplace.

Right now, it's just not as intimidating when you hear the NPC's "Shoot...him...with...an...arr...ow."

On the flip side, an aggro'd monster should be an aggro'd monster...I should be able to grab a few 'friends' and go rolling past that gang of bandits having dinner in the middle of a cave. "Here's something for you to do, guys!"

Environmental should go both ways - NPC's should be able to trip on the rock behind them. They should reach a point of self-induced fear (or bravery).

How about the occasional bonus boss - you know, the one that interrupts their dinner and your fight and forces all of you to temporarily align? (Think balrog, in LOTR movie...)

Much left to be expanded on. The subtle things can make a world of difference.

Thechemicals wrote: »

Elloa wrote: »

Check this thread >>> Dungeons Story Videos - For those that had to skip<<<

You sir, are my new best friend.

@Thechemicals , that sir is actually a ma'am...

Interesting thoughts. Especially like the random 3rd faction boss dropping in for tea...lol. Kind of reminds me of cyrodiil delves when a blue or yellow strolls around the corner. You both stare at each other for a few seconds ..do we fight.. do we do the dungeon ?

Terrain and traps being as detrimental to enemies as users. Oh yes...why shoudl we not lead the enemy into environmental traps or ambush them with bait.

The devil is in the detail as you said. The atmosphere is just as important as the content...if not more so IMHO. There is no atmoshphere with scripted NPC in ESO. Its a one shot deal.

Shunravi

@Rune_Relic‌, exactly.

One of my favorite things about cyrodill delves (aside from being unique and better designed, 'course they are improving that...) is the chance to meet a player and get involved in a fight thats random and unscripted.

yodased

Unconfirmed for every instance, but every dungeon/dsa/craglorn delve i can think of with spikes on the floor does actually hurt the enemy.

The only thing that doesn't hurt the enemy is friendly fire, same as us. Bringing 2 or 3 gargoyles and friends across the bridge of spikes in lower crag delve has always been a favorite of mine.

That aoe environmental damage just melts them lol

So NPCs + environmental damage already exists in the game, that is something they just need to put more traps in dungeons.

kewl

It took Blizzard almost 10 years to implement dynamic instances. Be patient, ZOS is working to give us the game we want.

Rune_Relic

Shunravi wrote: »

@Rune_Relic‌, exactly.

One of my favorite things about cyrodill delves (aside from being unique and better designed, 'course they are improving that...) is the chance to meet a player and get involved in a fight thats random and unscripted.

Actually you raised a good point about the fear aspect.
I really used to love the Draugr in skyrim. If you hit them too hard with one hit, they didnt stand and fight, they stood..thought fight or flea ? ...then legged it. The problem was you was stealthily working through the dungeon and that bugger just wanted to warn all his mates. So you ran the hell after it to kill it before your butt got owned by all his mates seeking you out. Alas running after it would also alert a few more sleepy draugr.

1. Fear altered NPC rections.
2. NPC activity was randomised.
3. You were forced to choose between stealth of full on attack.
4. What you chose had consequences that determined NPC reactions.

Basically they played NPC fear off of NPC awareness and player activity.

Merlin13KAGL

Rune_Relic wrote: »

The devil is in the detail as you said. The atmosphere is just as important as the content...if not more so IMHO. There is no atmoshphere with scripted NPC in ESO. Its a one shot deal.

It's that sort of thing that made TES great, no, exceptional.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Interesting thoughts. Especially like the random 3rd faction boss dropping in for tea...lol. Kind of reminds me of cyrodiil delves when a blue or yellow strolls around the corner. You both stare at each other for a few seconds ..do we fight.. do we do the dungeon ?

Shunravi wrote: »

@Rune_Relic‌, exactly.

One of my favorite things about cyrodill delves (aside from being unique and better designed, 'course they are improving that...) is the chance to meet a player and get involved in a fight thats random and unscripted.

@Shunravi , @Rune_Relic‌ , ah yes...the brief moment where you check your *astard-o-meter to determine what happens next...(awkward)

yodased wrote: »

Unconfirmed for every instance, but every dungeon/dsa/craglorn delve i can think of with spikes on the floor does actually hurt the enemy.

The only thing that doesn't hurt the enemy is friendly fire, same as us. Bringing 2 or 3 gargoyles and friends across the bridge of spikes in lower crag delve has always been a favorite of mine.

That aoe environmental damage just melts them lol

So NPCs + environmental damage already exists in the game, that is something they just need to put more traps in dungeons.

@yodased, the traps indeed do damage to NPC's, but there are not nearly enough, nor enough variety in them. In Oblivion, in particular, that was an awesome interactable.

I mean, when's the last time you let a mob take a swinging spiked battering ram to the face?

Where is the spiked bridge you speak of? I've seen plenty of bridges and plenty of gargoyles, but that's not ringing a bell at the moment.

Rune_Relic

I mean, when's the last time you let a mob take a swinging spiked battering ram to the face?

Ah yes.....the old swinging spiked door trick or the suspended tree log
ROFL! How much fun did I have with those....sniggering for the next half hour.

I would actually like to add... the ability to stack bodies is extremely underrated. Nothing better then wiping a dungeon full of enemies and leaving a record of it piled at the entrance for others to see. lol.
Especially when the NPCs trip over them....repeatedly!

Shunravi

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

The devil is in the detail as you said. The atmosphere is just as important as the content...if not more so IMHO. There is no atmoshphere with scripted NPC in ESO. Its a one shot deal.

It's that sort of thing that made TES great, no, exceptional.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Interesting thoughts. Especially like the random 3rd faction boss dropping in for tea...lol. Kind of reminds me of cyrodiil delves when a blue or yellow strolls around the corner. You both stare at each other for a few seconds ..do we fight.. do we do the dungeon ?

Shunravi wrote: »

@Rune_Relic‌, exactly.

One of my favorite things about cyrodill delves (aside from being unique and better designed, 'course they are improving that...) is the chance to meet a player and get involved in a fight thats random and unscripted.

@Shunravi , @Rune_Relic‌ , ah yes...the brief moment where you check your *astard-o-meter to determine what happens next...(awkward)

yodased wrote: »

Unconfirmed for every instance, but every dungeon/dsa/craglorn delve i can think of with spikes on the floor does actually hurt the enemy.

The only thing that doesn't hurt the enemy is friendly fire, same as us. Bringing 2 or 3 gargoyles and friends across the bridge of spikes in lower crag delve has always been a favorite of mine.

That aoe environmental damage just melts them lol

So NPCs + environmental damage already exists in the game, that is something they just need to put more traps in dungeons.

@yodased, the traps indeed do damage to NPC's, but there are not nearly enough, nor enough variety in them. In Oblivion, in particular, that was an awesome interactable.

I mean, when's the last time you let a mob take a swinging spiked battering ram to the face?

Where is the spiked bridge you speak of? I've seen plenty of bridges and plenty of gargoyles, but that's not ringing a bell at the moment.

I believe it's the Tombs of the Na-Totambu in Craglorn. The one where you fight your way up fortifications to fight a large gargoyle boss at the end. The skyshard is on a cliff behind him. The bridges you cross have spikes on them that do environmental damage to all who touch them.

Gidorick

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I wish each dungeon would have an "Explorer's Mode" that has the mobs just randomly wandering about without their little assigned-spots. That would be pretty cool.

@Gidorick , that would be awesome, so long as they fix the insta-semi-reset that sends them running back and forth to 'home base' when they get out of a certain area.

I liked the feature Oblivion put in place - if something was out to get you, it would pursue to the ends of the earth. It wasn't enough to be just a certain distance away or on the other side of a door.

It would allow pulls to be useful for getting past some things: Player A distracts the enemies while the rest move in position behind.

It would also force you to pay more attention to your surroundings, aggro 25 things on the way from point A to point B? "Oh look! It's a parade!"

EXACTLY...