Being "forced"

Blud

I've noticed in a lot of threads that people are saying that they feel "forced" to play a certain way. I've said it myself in some of my posts, mainly related to having to group for "endgame" content.

I realize that forums for any game tend to have a lot of negativity and complaining. That is kind of the nature of forums, because the happy people are busy playing instead of visiting the forums. Here, you get people with an axe to grind versus a group of "defenders." The defenders must come for the forum pvp

And each game has it's certain usual type of mmo complaints -- balance issues, bugs, lack of content, grind, etc. But one thing I've noticed a lot in ESO complaints in particular (compared to other games like ArcheAge, WoW, Darkfall, etc.) is that people say they feel "forced" to do x or y.

Where does this perception of being "forced" come from and why does it seem more prevalent in ESO than in other games? What is it about the design philosophy of ESO that causes people to complain about this?

Ysne58

"play as you like"

NotSo

I think the term is coincidental in that, as far as I know, all MMOs have end game group content that can only be accessed or completed in a group.

Nestor

Blud wrote: »

Where does this perception of being "forced" come from and why does it seem more prevalent in ESO than in other games? What is it about the design philosophy of ESO that causes people to complain about this?

For the people chasing the best builds with the best DPS, there is certain way that offers advantages over others (Light Armor and a Staff for the most part) so that might be why people feel forced into a certain build archtype. I can see why if your chasing the best time in a Trial or an edge in PvP. However in the other PvE, the death recap never shows me that if I had just 5% more of something I would have survived, it was more my rotation and not being ready for the battle than any nuances in my builds.

I play a character in LA, one in MA and one in HA and they all do just fine in the game. One uses a Stick, one uses 1H/S, and one uses DW. I do not feel forced to play a certain way at all. I do have to use different tactics and approaches to battles but that is expected. Anyone who thinks they can roll up any character and play that character anyway they want to is disillusioned anyway. You play to your characters strengths and weaknesses, that is the way it should be.

There have been improvements to Stamina builds so we are seeing more people moving to that or dusting off their older alts or respeccing. So, perhaps once they tweak HA, then the Skirt and Stick crowd will not be the dominate archtype in end game content.

Rosveen

They told us we could be whatever we want to be, in the spirit of single player TES. Many people forgot that in previous TES games some builds were stupidly overpowered and some were gimped, and thought here anything would be viable for any sort of content. It didn't quite work out. ZOS didn't help with things like initial stamina design, class-exclusive Breath of Life or NBs bugged to hell and back (they spent months climbing out of that hole. Funny how everyone wants Veil of Blades now).

Sublime

I think it originates from ZOS' initial advertising slogan "play as you want", and now players realized that there is still a "best" build for something. Hence they feel force to use this gear because they would not be competitive otherwise.

hammer_fella

Blud wrote: »

Where does this perception of being "forced" come from and why does it seem more prevalent in ESO than in other games? What is it about the design philosophy of ESO that causes people to complain about this?

I'd say about 95% of the complaints in this regard can be attributed to one of the following:

1) Players who have come to ESO from other TES games only to find that the MMO doesn't allow the same degree of freedom that those other games offered, or is missing certain elements of those games that players consider crucial.

2) Players coming to ESO from other MMOs who quickly tire of the single-player aspects of the game and wish to pursue end-game content without so many hurdles to leveling a character.

ESO is a game I very much enjoy, but it remains an unhappy marriage between two very different styles of play. Some players will always favour one of those styles over the other. The developers will therefore continue to have their hands full trying to satisfy both these player types, and players will continue to complain about any new content which doesn't cater to their specific styles of play, saying they were 'forced' to do something contrary to what they had expected the game to be.

The fault lies in player expectations. Most are too narrow to understand that what they feel forced to do, others may actually love and find very rewarding. Unfortunately, just like the real world, Tamriel (and Coldharbour!) is a shared space, so some compromise is an unavoidable reality.

OrangeTheCat

I think the only way I have used the term "forced" here (and only relatively recently) is in reference to leveling VR ranks via questing. I like questing and the quests in this game are, for the most part, quite well done. But I have a problem with the equivalent of 150 levels worth of questing. That's just way too much in my opinion. Unfortunately, there is now no other option really (not that we had much before). For people like me who also like to PvP and not be eternally road kill, I want to be able to get to max VR in a reasonable amount of time so as to be competitive.

There is a reason why WoW "power levels" your new characters from level 1 to 90 now (or something along those lines).

OrphanHelgen

Blud wrote: »

I realize that forums for any game tend to have a lot of negativity and complaining. That is kind of the nature of forums, because the happy people are busy playing instead of visiting the forums. Here, you get people with an axe to grind versus a group of "defenders." The defenders must come for the forum pvp

I have been stuck in craglorn for 3 days without getting a quest done because its impossible to get a group.

I was a happy player who played AND visit forums, to learn and be updated. And most important: Getting a reason for be one of the peoples that are busy playing instead of visiting the forums.

Tonturri

I will now explain the concept of being 'forced' in MMOs as I see it.

I always go under the assumption that the people who say it merely don't have the proper words to explain the concept to their satisfaction, and thus use 'forced' instead. Admittedly, it is difficult. Suffice to say they do -not- mean that someone is holding a gun to their head and demanding they do this or that. I don't think anyone means the word as literally as some take it.

'Forced' is going under the assumption that they want to play and enjoy the game and its content. For example.

The following is under the assumption that LA/staff/whatever is superior to medium armor/other melee weapon. That may not be the case, but let's ignore that for a moment.

I like dungeons, challenging content, trials, etc. I also (this is an example, mind) absolutely loathe playing as a magic/staff user. Thus, I would level with and enjoy leveling with a melee build, medium armor, 2h sword and so on. Once I get to end game, I'd discover a couple things
1) My favored build has bad survivability (in comparison to LA/magicka/whatever)
2) My favored build has bad damage. (in comparison to LA/magicka/whatever)

Okay, so the build I want to play is just at a flat out disadvantage in trials. It's not my fault. It's not the group of peoples' fault who I'd wish to run trials with. It's not a lack of skill on my part. It just is. Now, I can either

1) Switch to LA/staff and frolic onward, or...
2) Don't do trials. Or find someone willing to accept me, but that aside...

I'd have two choice - one would be do something I wouldn't really enjoy doing, and the other would be to not do content I want to play and enjoy.

Am I forced to run x build to do trials? No, not really. Is it reasonable to expect me to put in a ridiculous amount of effort in order to run trials with the build I want, all because of things that are out of my control? Noooot really. Another example would be (accepting that some of these might've changed. I know at one point they were somewhat valid/actually valid, though)

1) back when VR leveling took a crapload of time, unless you were willing to grind it out.
2) Wantign to be the best Healer you posibly could for trials, but also playing..Iunno, a sorcerer? Something that isn't a templar.
3) Wanting some sort of variation in leveling. It was either quest grinding, or...grinding, ooor....more grinding, oor...and so on. Admittedly I enjoy quests and story, but that's just me.
4) Wanting to level in a reasonable amount of time, but wanting to quest instead of grind.

Mind, disregard the thing that goes "Vampires are OP, shouldn't be forced to vamp for pvp *and then doesn't take fighter's guild passives, doesn't use fighter's guild abilities, nope, none of that*".

Just my thoughts on it. Hopefully this helps.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

It's been nerfed into the ground. Anyone can play any way they want and do fine in the normal content.

If you want to do Undaunted, Vet Dungeons and Trials and that kind of exacting content, you will need to step up your game. This is where the limitations of the various hybrid builds become obvious. If you do not optimize what you have this content will be very difficult.

Zhoyzu

The main thing i feel forced to do is quest.
After rerolling to a templar from a nightblade (just wasnt my style) and having to go through all of those quests is just killing me. One of the reasons is just the sheer number of quests you need to complete. The second reason is i realize that the DC story line just sucks major ass, its dull, slow, and relatively boring. AD's Story line is like the best in the game so there is something to look forward too when i get through DC now.
The lack of a gripping story line in DC and somewhat EP just makes questing all the worse.

The forcing to quest part comes from it being the only reliable way to level up now and at this point of having run all the quests in the game several times (unhappy with faction and character selections) i would really just like to have fun. except i cant because questing is no longer fun and grinding was boring and now you cant even grind to by pass the repetition of their questing system.

I've gotten most of my levels and xp from cyrodiil, but im only vr3 on my reroll. i made it to vr8 on my nightblade before i couldnt take it anymore. Id like to do craglorn but the thought of the months of questing ahead of me is just a huge turn off and i end up just going back to cyrodiil to get my 5 daily kill quests out of the way.

Im forced to quest because there are no alternatives.

hutchinsonhatch

Blud wrote: »

Where does this perception of being "forced" come from and why does it seem more prevalent in ESO than in other games? What is it about the design philosophy of ESO that causes people to complain about this?

It's not more frequent in ESO than in other games, it just escalates from game to game.
The problem lies within the community, full stop. Groups running content "the most efficient way", farming things "the most efficient way", selling/buying at the "best price" etc. How often do you come across a thread-title like "What is the (absolute) best...", or "Am I the only one...?".
The unwilligness to include the small aspect of fun is creating discomfort, not immediately, more like a creeping illness that is able to destroy the whole experience.

The same goes for "Why am I punished...", or "ZOS absolutely need to change...".

I read a lot and test some of the claims, and very few are valid conderns. Impatience has become a virtue these days.

I often hear and read that people ingame don't have any gold. I just reached VR1 tonight and have 110 slots of bag-space, 110 slots of bank-space and a whopping 69.000 gold. I have no idea what people spend their money on, though.

Concluding, I'd like to state that "the player is the 'force'".

xaraan

There is plenty of latitude to 'play as you like' but everyone has exaggerated it to mean play any (non-smart) way you want and it should be as powerful as everything else.

Bloodfang

As other have said they feel "forced" because of the statement "Play as you like".

However I'm pretty sure many casuals are just playing as it was advertised, they just don't post on these forums.

The only ones who complain are the ones who noticed how some spec is stronger than the other one etc, so they take it to the heart too much.

So on one side we have a group of casuals that make the majority (they don't care if they can't do X more amount of DPS etc.)
And on the other side a group of elitists, perfectionists etc. (they refuse to play with you if you don't use the exact type of gear, exact type of build, and in some cases even exact class)

So first group is friendly and not very vocal.
While the second one is mostly aggresive and vocal. (Though you still have to thank them for providing feedback that is needed to balance the game - this applies only to the minority that is actually capable of providing constructive feedback)

Razzak

It's about perception. And about that "play as you like" statement.The truth is, such a sentence really has no place in a game like ESO. And that's probably why so many people feel they are forced. Because it fails to deliver on so many points, it is remarkable no one has accused them of lying yet. But that's PR. I am guessing that every time one of ZOS' employees has spoken that line, she/he had their fingers crossed behind their back.

It could also have something to do with the fact that they redesigned certain, "standard" features in such a way that those features became barely useful or demand to much attention or work. Minimalistic and very poorly designed UI that "forces" you to use add-ons, content that either "forces" you to play solo or in a group, trading that "forces" you to travel all over and spend a lot of time, skill balancing issues that "force" you to play FOTM build, and many other things that give you a perception of being forced.

In the end, ESO is a game that offers very little options, different ways of doing something beside not doing it. And it shows.

ers101284b14_ESO

Because of craglorn bein group content. Because after 300 hours worth of solo content god forbid we have something for groups.

GrimMauKin

I do think that the game favours tank type builds over others; I don't feel forced to play that way (I'm still playing my Nightblade) but I do think that it puts me at a disadvantage.

Firstly MOBs hit over great distance and operate in a fairly small area (move too far out of this and they reset). I've been trying to play a more agile, positioning aware character but have found that virtually any MOB can hit me from anywhere within its active area (often I get hit by them all simultaneously) due to the exaggerated range of the game; positioning can become fairly irrelevant.

I also tend to work with a range of invisibility, stealth, stun, snare and knockback skills to live long enough to do some damage. Bosses and powerful creatures tend to be immune to all of the above pretty much forcing a toe-to-toe slugfest; again a high DPS/high armour tank would be at an advantage. In a magical realm it out to be possible to construct some bosses that disadvantage tanks over other character types, but this doesn't seem to happen.

I think that I can 'play as I like' to a certain degree but certainly not to the extent that I'd like and do feel pressured (rather than forced) to play/build in a certain way.

TehMagnus

They feel forced because they feel that just because they pay for the game, they should be able to experience the whole content without being forced into a certain type of playstile.

This is the case for people asking for:

- PVE Cyrodill since "They don't want to play with the terrorizing fear that someone may come and kill them while they are hunting skyshards"
- Solo end game content since, they play an MMORPG but "MMORPG doesn't mean forced grouping (lol) so I should be able to experience the whole content by myself".
- Content should be nerfed since "I play for fun and it's not fun to die because I'm bad and I def don't need to improve since It's a game and I shouldn't work for it but just sit back & relax after a hard day of work".

And then there are just usual rants:
- "I want to play my way but others don't want to play with me when I play my way so instead of trying to make friends and play with them with my funky (and most of times useless and unoptimized builds), I rather spend time complaining about it on forums.
- "This item drop is too low and it's totally unfair because I want it thus, game makers should change the drop rate".

Mainly people that shouldn't be playing MMORPG games.

Oh and also prolly because it seems the age average of people playing this game is higher than other games and old people tend to complain a lot .

Mightylink

I think people are just looking at numbers and because a certain build turns out to be 0.002% more dps in a youtube video they feel like they have to follow it.

zaria

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Blud wrote: »

I realize that forums for any game tend to have a lot of negativity and complaining. That is kind of the nature of forums, because the happy people are busy playing instead of visiting the forums. Here, you get people with an axe to grind versus a group of "defenders." The defenders must come for the forum pvp

I have been stuck in craglorn for 3 days without getting a quest done because its impossible to get a group.

I was a happy player who played AND visit forums, to learn and be updated. And most important: Getting a reason for be one of the peoples that are busy playing instead of visiting the forums.

Looks like its somewhat more questing in craglorn again. News value of the daily dungeons has passed and people understand that veteran dungeons with pugs is not very time effective.

Was able to do the missing guardian, they have fixed it so anybody who have done the quest can help. None in the group know, the fourth member thought it was a daily but hanged on then it could not be shared.

Cherryblossom

Blud wrote: »

I realize that forums for any game tend to have a lot of negativity and complaining. That is kind of the nature of forums, because the happy people are busy playing instead of visiting the forums. Here, you get people with an axe to grind versus a group of "defenders." The defenders must come for the forum pvp

Initially I came to the Forum for information, but it has become abundantly clear ZOS will never communicate with us, and this comment will incite the defenders to say they do...

Blud wrote: »

Where does this perception of being "forced" come from and why does it seem more prevalent in ESO than in other games? What is it about the design philosophy of ESO that causes people to complain about this?

For me the forced is, the lazy VR levels, where you gain just 14 levels by repeating the whole story line again in two factions, it was fun for the first 50 levels, but not for the Veteran levels, feels like a punishment.
Craglorn, I have to be in a group to do a quest. So when the majority can't find a group they can't even play! Not just forced to play in a certain way, but actually forced not to play!

There are builds and Classes which are much better than others, but I've never really had an issue with playing my class the way I want to and I've not yet run into an issue with a group complaining about my build (but may be I'm good!)

Aenlir

You can play as you like in almost all the content in the game. Did vet crypt of hearts yesterday with no one using weapons and we completed it fine lol. We had one person medium armor, 2 light and 1 heavy. No weapon swap or charging ultimates. So if it's possible to do vet dungeons unarmed then you can pretty much play how you want and still complete content.

TehMagnus

craigvigneaultub17_ESO wrote: »

You can play as you like in almost all the content in the game. Did vet crypt of hearts yesterday with no one using weapons and we completed it fine lol. We had one person medium armor, 2 light and 1 heavy. No weapon swap or charging ultimates. So if it's possible to do vet dungeons unarmed then you can pretty much be able to play how you want and still complete content.

Easy to complete dungeons without weapons when you've done Vet Arena since the dungeons don't even present a challenge for us. But for most people, this is not the case. Play as you want = die.

Zorrashi

magnusnet wrote: »

They feel forced because they feel that just because they pay for the game, they should be able to experience the whole content without being forced into a certain type of playstile.

This is the case for people asking for:

- PVE Cyrodill since "They don't want to play with the terrorizing fear that someone may come and kill them while they are hunting skyshards"
- Solo end game content since, they play an MMORPG but "MMORPG doesn't mean forced grouping (lol) so I should be able to experience the whole content by myself".
- Content should be nerfed since "I play for fun and it's not fun to die because I'm bad and I def don't need to improve since It's a game and I shouldn't work for it but just sit back & relax after a hard day of work".

And then there are just usual rants:
- "I want to play my way but others don't want to play with me when I play my way so instead of trying to make friends and play with them with my funky (and most of times useless and unoptimized builds), I rather spend time complaining about it on forums.
- "This item drop is too low and it's totally unfair because I want it thus, game makers should change the drop rate".

Mainly people that shouldn't be playing MMORPG games.

Oh and also prolly because it seems the age average of people playing this game is higher than other games and old people tend to complain a lot .

Pretty much this (to an extent), though I would have put in into different wording.

Yes, I have occasionally heard people want a PvE cyrodil. Yes, I have heard people want to make Craglorn soloable. Yes, I have heard X should be nerfed/buffed because the ability is completely ***. But while most of these wants are completely....how should I say.....mostly unwarranted and a bit over-exaggerated....I can at least sympathize for those who say they feel forced because "its the only content left after X lvl".

I remember how the original VR content was nerfed because it was a really big spike/wall for players who have experienced lvl 1-50 and were shocked at the sudden spike in difficulty which was meant to coerce people into grouping.
Back then, people effectively felt like they hit a giant wall in character progression and overall gameplay enjoy ability. I understand why they ensued with the subsequent nerf due to how many players were fed up with the then-current state. There was simply little alternative to play style back then.
I also understand that many people felt like the group-friendly content was basically taken from them. Hence why I am totally ok with Craglorn being group-oriented. If we take VR content from them, I suppose it is only fair they get their own zone. Hence why I am not part of the populace that wants to see it overhauled to accommodate solo players. Solo players have most of the VR content, and the groupers have Craglorn. In addition, for solo players who are not interested in either Craglron/Cadwell's Almanac/trials/delves, I do believe that future zones will accommodate solo players (Wrothgar was it?). It is just a matter of patience. It's not like they can ignore a great portion of the player base (hence why VR content was nerfed in the first place).

PvE Cyrodil? I may not like PvP that much, but these advocators have almost nothing to their idea other than "I want to play it without being able to be attacked by other players". Don't get me wrong, your opinion has value, and you are more than free to express it, but PvEers practically have 95+% of the game open to them whereas open PvP is only possible in Cyrodil. Let the PvPers have their zone, and if you want the skyshards, then just like group-centric Craglorn, you have to play by the zone's rules.

In simpler terms, I only sympathize with players who feel "forced" into doing something purely because game effectively pushes it onto them to a very large capacity. However, this does not extend to certain ability allotments or builds, this is simply because the game is bound to have its subset of more effective abilities/builds anyway.

This game has a lot of content for a great variety of players, perhaps not enough of it toward endgame, but a lot. But MMOs have the leisure to keep on adding onto it. Just don't get the impression that the content is ALL for you and your preferences.

Aenlir

magnusnet wrote: »

Easy to complete dungeons without weapons when you've done Vet Arena since the dungeons don't even present a challenge for us. But for most people, this is not the case. Play as you want = die.

True, but I think it shows it's not really as much as a balance issue as it is people who can't do the mechanics. Especially now stamina builds are good, there are lots of ways to "play as you like" and still be effective.

Sord

get ready for some major changes. take a listen to the guild summit champion system. plus all the other things that are coming.

Dazin93

hammer_fella wrote: »

Blud wrote: »

Where does this perception of being "forced" come from and why does it seem more prevalent in ESO than in other games? What is it about the design philosophy of ESO that causes people to complain about this?

I'd say about 95% of the complaints in this regard can be attributed to one of the following:

1) Players who have come to ESO from other TES games only to find that the MMO doesn't allow the same degree of freedom that those other games offered, or is missing certain elements of those games that players consider crucial.

2) Players coming to ESO from other MMOs who quickly tire of the single-player aspects of the game and wish to pursue end-game content without so many hurdles to leveling a character.

ESO is a game I very much enjoy, but it remains an unhappy marriage between two very different styles of play. Some players will always favour one of those styles over the other. The developers will therefore continue to have their hands full trying to satisfy both these player types, and players will continue to complain about any new content which doesn't cater to their specific styles of play, saying they were 'forced' to do something contrary to what they had expected the game to be.

The fault lies in player expectations. Most are too narrow to understand that what they feel forced to do, others may actually love and find very rewarding. Unfortunately, just like the real world, Tamriel (and Coldharbour!) is a shared space, so some compromise is an unavoidable reality.

Great points, but I think you are overlooking the pvp aspect as well. People enjoy pvp for its competitiveness and many builds quite frankly are not competitive or "viable" for pvp.

Case in point, I rolled a DK as my main when ESO came out in hopes of playing a HA/support role. Unfortunately, anything besides a magicka dk is less than optimal, if not completely gimped, so my dk has mostly been unused. I also rolled a sorc in hopes of being a melee dps which isn't a practical build in pvp anymore with recent bow buffs. So I had a choice of getting mostly face rolled or changing to a ranged/stealth role.

Was I forced, no; my options sure are limited though and I don't have the time or desire to level a third character to VR 14 in hopes of being able to play the way I prefer.

Jack-0

hammer_fella wrote: »

Blud wrote: »

Where does this perception of being "forced" come from and why does it seem more prevalent in ESO than in other games? What is it about the design philosophy of ESO that causes people to complain about this?

The fault lies in player expectations. Most are too narrow to understand that what they feel forced to do, others may actually love and find very rewarding.

Whilst I agree completely with identifying the different expectations and requirements of single player gamers and experienced MMO vets, I don't think it's entirely the players' expectations at fault. I think we also have a very inexperienced and/or poorly managed development team. Look at Craglorn's mandatory 4man group quests for example, they could instead have scaled the number of objects requiring interaction at once to the number of people in the group and so many people would be so much happier as a result.

What about this mess with patches a few weeks ago where they broke the game for thousands of Europeans?

Or look at the issue from the start with guild banking that allowed players to dupe items. The devs slapped a bandaid fix on in the form of no longer allowing you to manage stacks of items whilst in the guild bank. How many months has it been since then and they still haven't revisited this to apply a more permanent and less inconvenient solution? They're out of their depth, and I could write up another dozen examples if my lunch break wasn't about to end!

The players just need to take it easy and understand the devs are still finding their feet. The devs, in turn, need to be honest, keep up comms with their player base, admit when they screw up and be prepared to delay something to buy more development time instead of ploughing ahead with something that clearly is not ready to be released. And learn from their mistakes.

Razzak

craigvigneaultub17_ESO wrote: »

You can play as you like in almost all the content in the game. Did vet crypt of hearts yesterday with no one using weapons and we completed it fine lol. We had one person medium armor, 2 light and 1 heavy. No weapon swap or charging ultimates. So if it's possible to do vet dungeons unarmed then you can pretty much play how you want and still complete content.

Congrats to you and your mates for achieveing that. Would you try something like that with a PUG? Would you try sometung like that with a PUG and not knowing the mechanics by heart?

Aenlir

Razzak wrote: »

Congrats to you and your mates for achieveing that. Would you try something like that with a PUG? Would you try sometung like that with a PUG and not knowing the mechanics by heart?

No of course not, but I was more talking about the play as you like thing. Knowing the mechanics has nothing to do with your build really. Just saying your not forced to play a certain way. Zenimax can't make people better players.