And then there were two (A story of member loss)

Rylana

When I joined the ESO beta a year ago, I sold nine of my friends on this game. Most were from another game, all of whom I have played with for the better part of two years, some more than that.

We all started at or near launch once the game was available. Made Aldmeri Vice as a small PvP guild, and went on recruit spree to bolster our ranks to about 50 people. Nearly all of the members quit or left the game within the first 30 days, including two of our original 10.

The eight that remained joined up with four new guys we recruited from various other PvP guilds and we ran together in 6-12 man groups for the better part of the first 90 days of the game.

Then Hajee quit when the level cap increased. Then Sigmus quit when the level cap increased again and he was still level v6.

The 10 remaining (six original) trudged forward for the next three months, until the great lagbomb of 1.4 and 1.5. This was the breaking point for four of the originals and two of the newer members.

Now we have four active members left, of which only two were with us from the very beginning.

ZOS, if this is any indication of your retention rate, you need to listen. All of us, every single one of the original 10, with the exception of maybe sigmus, are hardcore PvP players with lots of time to grind and so forth. If this data sample is any indication, you are losing even the most hard nosed people left and right. Two of the final four (myself and healz) are already unsubbed and just playing out what remaining time we have. Then only 1 original member will remain, two total.

The numbers quickly

10 joined, grew to 50, 30 left in the first month, 10 more would leave in the first three months, 10 remained at 1.4, four remain (only two of the original 10) today with two literally on their way out the door.

All of the original 10 have said in no short terms they would come back if, and only if, the game was lag free, less of a grind, and was worth 15 a month to them. As it stands, I now agree. Once you lose me, you dont get me back until everything that has been building up over the last few months is completely rectified and I hear about it.

Think about that Zenimax.

Saet

My guild came here the opening month. We were about 70 strong. Now we have two regular players and two that login every two weeks or so. The rest mostly left before month three. I'd love to know their numbers but they wont show them. I imagine as to not panic the herd that is still here.

Bouvin

The guild I joined on Early Access Day 1 had capped at 500 members. All active during the first couple of months.

It now has 8 active players left.

ZOS, please tell us again how players aren't leaving in droves

Out of those 500 players, 98.4% left the game. If the rest of the game is anything like that whatsoever, then obviously their was a mass exodus.

Also... just look at the PvP zone. In the beginning there would be 4-5 pvp zones locked for all factions. Now there is only 1 zone that ever locks. So in the beginning there were enough players to lock 5 zones, now barely enough to lock 1. Not to mention, in the beginning most people were focused on leveling and not even doing PvP.

I've seen this happen before. Happened with AoC. Huge hype, lots of players in the beginning...

But then people found out how broken that game was, how many bugs there were, and how unbalanced the classes were (in a pvp focused game). And they started leaving. Funsoft made it worse by making more, and worse bugs with each patch and using band-aid solutions to cover up bad game design.

But it's not too late for ESO. ZOS just needs to pull their heads out of their butts before they make this game into another AoC/WAR/SWTOR. It has a lot of potential, but a loyal player base will only stay loyal so long once the game stops being fun for them and all of their friends have quit playing.

IMO, ZOS needs some new leadership for this game. Because the current leadership obviously isn't getting it done, despite the game's potential.

Ragefist

You must realize that the guild loyalty isnt particularly strong in this game. As soon as a guild start to dwindle people simply leave for another one. Been there, done that.

Its funny how many people would love to see numbers, so they can spam doomthreads. Well you aint getting them. We barely got rid of F2P threads, surely dont need any more doomsayers arond

nerevarine1138

Of course, your story is kind of belied by the fact that I'm in three active trading guilds, each of which kicks people after more than a week of inactivity, each of which is currently sitting at 500 players.

So while your friends from the beginning of the game may have left, they were replaced. Overall, the population seems to be fairly healthy, and people have been making the "My guild is losing people, therefore the game is losing people" argument since a week or two after release. It was just as bad an argument then as it is now.

Ciar

I can feel your pain, i myself am only vr5 family and work keep me from playing more but i play just for pvp, not into the pve i will if needs must but i generally avoid it, since these latest patches pvp has become impossible.

sitting here thinking it might be time to re sub to DAoC as my accounts are still intact and i just need to sort billing, no lag regular pvp to have fun which is why i play.

i do hope they solve the lag issue soon as i do actually enjoy ESO and don't want to quit but if you cut of 50% of the game and it's the 50% i enjoy most why bother paying for it.

Jaxsun

We started at 12 in Beta and are down to 3 that still play.

Rylana

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Of course, your story is kind of belied by the fact that I'm in three active trading guilds, each of which kicks people after more than a week of inactivity, each of which is currently sitting at 500 players.

So while your friends from the beginning of the game may have left, they were replaced. Overall, the population seems to be fairly healthy, and people have been making the "My guild is losing people, therefore the game is losing people" argument since a week or two after release. It was just as bad an argument then as it is now.

Right because there arent like five still good trading guilds that everyone has clumped to thats left after about 100 others have failed.

Hell one of the original trade guilds Coldharbour Emporium is completely dead after being one of those guilds that did the cull + replace for four months.

All of the leaders/officers left the game, and the guild completely floundered and died.

DezIsDead

Yeah I'm going to have to go with rylana on this one... If you have to keep replacing players in a guild, because their inactive, that mean players keep quitting. At some point the outgoing players will be more than the incoming players. And then you end up with a crap environment of a bunch of brand new players who only got the game because it was f2p, care nothing about the health of the game or the spirit of the game.

By no means am a saying everyone who plays f2p are like that. Just saying the majority don't care about the health of the game.

Ifthir_ESO

Great post OP, we may disagree on some things, but that was a great post @Rylana‌

driosketch

You've been around long enough to know what kind of responses posting threads like this on the forum gets you. So we're clear.

Posting numbers of your guild which formed in the first month of launch versus now is a terrible way to gauge the metrics of this game population. Especially when you don't do any major recruitment after the initial launch. I'm in two guilds formed back in the beta, we had large numbers at launch, then for the last six months only a dozen or so are ever online at the same time. That has more or less held steady. One or two might leave for whatever reason, occasionally one might return, but we don't really recruit so eventually they will decline until like your guild, no one is left.

I'm waiting to see someone who started a guild in the third month, got to 100+ members and is dying despite active recruiting and kicking policies. I'll listen to your doom and gloom post then.

Also quitting over a level increase is the silliest reason I've ever heard. If it was because of the gear grind, that was never going away, (citing the new 2-piece monster sets as the most recent example.) If it was because they felt they had to be max level to stand a chance in PvP, and you still keep in touch with them, you tell them I said they were scrubs.

Anyways if you stay or not, see you around.

Leeric

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Of course, your story is kind of belied by the fact that I'm in three active trading guilds, each of which kicks people after more than a week of inactivity, each of which is currently sitting at 500 players.

So while your friends from the beginning of the game may have left, they were replaced. Overall, the population seems to be fairly healthy, and people have been making the "My guild is losing people, therefore the game is losing people" argument since a week or two after release. It was just as bad an argument then as it is now.

True I've left probably 4 guilds all because they don't kick people who stop playing. Which would make it seem worse than it actually is. I love how someone LoL'd on your post though. Tells you right there people don't like hearing the truth about their opinions on here.

Tandor

Two things always strike me about these "no-one in my guild plays any more" stories.

First, every new MMO has a very fickle player base at launch. In the early months a lot of people try a new game out but most will return to the game they were already committed to in terms of loyalties and expenditure. What also happens, of course, is that as a game matures through its early months and all manner of teething issues get addressed, more players decide to give it a try. The newer and the more serious guilds go out of their way to recruit them while the less committed and the declining guilds don't bother. Hence you see stories like the OP's, and countering tales like some of the replies.

Second, a lot of the players that have left since launch have been PvPers. The reasons they have left have been nothing to do with the rest of the game (which PvEers on the whole regard very highly) but have largely centred around the performance issues in Cyrodil and the fact that PvPers tend to be far more obsessed with performance, balancing, and other game-related issues and so are much less suited to new games that haven't yet settled down in those respects. As those issues do get resolved, some of the PvPers will in any event return. However, not all will and this in part also reflects the fact that this was never going to be a PvP-centric game and those who believed their own hype that it was were the first to leave when they realised they'd misled themselves.

OrangeTheCat

I am GM of one of those 500 member trade guilds founded at release and I basically agree with you OP. it is harder and harder to recruit new people and I've had to relax my kick policy as a result. The decline in population seems pretty obvious to me.

Ifthir_ESO

driosketch wrote: »

Anyways if you stay or not, see you around.

I am a Psijic order player just like you. How many of us are even left? Ten? Twenty? Tops.

I've played this game literally since the first public copy was available and if you think the game overall health is good, then we just need to head our seperate ways.

The PvE is pretty good but needs more content and reasons to do it that don't require 12 people. The dailies and DSA are great examples of good stuff they did to help this. The problem is with every item being BoP what do you have to do as a PVE player once you have the best gear (Which most of us do by now). There isn't anything to do.

PvP shouldn't even be discussed. I am literally sick over how poorly it was mismanaged here. I had high hopes for this game and right now all I have is a big hole in my wallet and longing for what this game could have been if it had the right leadership and a few more months prior to being forced out to please the corporate overlords.

Ifthir_ESO

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Of course, your story is kind of belied by the fact that I'm in three active trading guilds, each of which kicks people after more than a week of inactivity, each of which is currently sitting at 500 players.

So while your friends from the beginning of the game may have left, they were replaced. Overall, the population seems to be fairly healthy, and people have been making the "My guild is losing people, therefore the game is losing people" argument since a week or two after release. It was just as bad an argument then as it is now.

LOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLLOOL

I bet you work for the government!!!

Hover over the names on your 3 trade guilds with 500+ players and see when they last logged on.

Ill give you 100k gold right now if you post a video and all 3 guilds have no one over a week.

Rylana

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Of course, your story is kind of belied by the fact that I'm in three active trading guilds, each of which kicks people after more than a week of inactivity, each of which is currently sitting at 500 players.

So while your friends from the beginning of the game may have left, they were replaced. Overall, the population seems to be fairly healthy, and people have been making the "My guild is losing people, therefore the game is losing people" argument since a week or two after release. It was just as bad an argument then as it is now.

LOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLLOOL

I bet you work for the government!!!

Hover over the names on your 3 trade guilds with 500+ players and see when they last logged on.

Ill give you 100k gold right now if you post a video and all 3 guilds have no one over a week.

He cant do it, i am in one of the big five and that one has about 100 members over a month last logged in.

though that guild has about 250 that logged in since wednesday (giving them the benefit of the doubt cause of thanksgiving) so even one of the bigger major trade guilds only has half of its number on daily.

nerevarine1138

Rylana wrote: »

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Of course, your story is kind of belied by the fact that I'm in three active trading guilds, each of which kicks people after more than a week of inactivity, each of which is currently sitting at 500 players.

So while your friends from the beginning of the game may have left, they were replaced. Overall, the population seems to be fairly healthy, and people have been making the "My guild is losing people, therefore the game is losing people" argument since a week or two after release. It was just as bad an argument then as it is now.

LOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLLOOL

I bet you work for the government!!!

Hover over the names on your 3 trade guilds with 500+ players and see when they last logged on.

Ill give you 100k gold right now if you post a video and all 3 guilds have no one over a week.

He cant do it, i am in one of the big five and that one has about 100 members over a month last logged in.

though that guild has about 250 that logged in since wednesday (giving them the benefit of the doubt cause of thanksgiving) so even one of the bigger major trade guilds only has half of its number on daily.

And I wasn't aware that daily login was a criteria for guild membership in any guild, never mind a requirement for someone to claim that a guild is "active". Most people have lives. Most people will not play this game every day.

The fact is that you're drawing a faulty conclusion from insufficient evidence: day one guilds are losing people, therefore the game is losing people. There are plenty of guilds that have replaced all the day one guilds, and every report we've seen on game population has indicated a positive trend.

But I know that no force in the world can overcome someone's own desire to believe something they've already decided to be true. So this is more for the people who might see your individual anecdote as representative of the whole game.

xaraan

I think it's pretty hard to judge based on initial sign ups and drop offs in the first month, as most games are like that.

Our guild, a mostly pve guild, grew quickly and lost several major guys after the first couple months. We've continued to add people and maintain our numbers, but the overall gameplay of members seems smaller. Those major guys that left, well, a couple were 'followers' and followed someone else to other games. Another said the game didn't have enough content (even though he hadn't finished all the existing content), he just wanted to play other games as well. Some people like jumping from the latest game to latest and I'd bet ESO had a lot more of those players check it out b/c of the ES connection than a normal MMO. We've even had a couple of them say they are coming back to the game soon, but we don't trust how long they will stick around when the next new game pops up and they've played this one for a bit again.

All that said, our guild has been a beta/day one guild and is still around. We've changed guild leaders, lost and added many members. We stay casual and don't have hardcore rules that eject players or run them off. We've also been members of other guilds and seen many changes where a guild grows, some leave, it dissolves and then changes into a whole new guild with most of the same people b/c someone new wanted to run it and name it themselves. There is one guild we saw break up or split several times into new guilds but essentially have the same people in it throughout.


There is little doubt the population has leveled off from launch. Nobody doubts that. But no real evidence of a huge continual drop.

JamilaRaj

Rylana wrote: »

Then Hajee quit when the level cap increased. Then Sigmus quit when the level cap increased again and he was still level v6
...
All of us, every single one of the original 10, with the exception of maybe sigmus, are hardcore PvP players with lots of time to grind and so forth
...
...less of a grind...

Ah, yes, The Grind. From 10 to 12 and later from 12 to 14. Indeed horrible hardcore grind even for hardcore nolifers, lol.

driosketch

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

I am a Psijic order player just like you. How many of us are even left? Ten? Twenty? Tops.

50+ have logged on in the last week, 40+ in the last two days.

Hybris6

Ibtl

DezIsDead

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

I am GM of one of those 500 member trade guilds founded at release and I basically agree with you OP. it is harder and harder to recruit new people and I've had to relax my kick policy as a result. The decline in population seems pretty obvious to me.

This right here reinforces op's point so let's just chill. And as far as PvP players misleading themselves was one of the biggest selling points of this game the 3 factions fighting for the imperial city? Or was I misleading myself when I read that? Also rylana don't quit yo, at least not for good, take a break. I did for two months. Waited for a couple fixes, came back and while not perfect it is better

Aoife32001

Ultimately, Zenimax knows their numbers. They don't need us providing our anecdotal evidence (no matter how persuasive it may be). If the game fails, it fails. If it keeps going, then no matter how many people you personally know quit the company is nevertheless turning a profit. Enjoy it while it lasts, whether that be 6 more months or 6 years (and if you're not enjoying it, well, let your wallet speak for you).

DezIsDead

Aoife32001 wrote: »

Ultimately, Zenimax knows their numbers. They don't need us providing our anecdotal evidence (no matter how persuasive it may be). If the game fails, it fails. If it keeps going, then no matter how many people you personally know quit the company is nevertheless turning a profit. Enjoy it while it lasts, whether that be 6 more months or 6 years (and if you're not enjoying it, well, let your wallet speak for you).

Agreed I just don't get the w/e attitudes. We should want people to stay especially ppl like raylana who most AD and EP pvp players know. Sorry if I came on strong towards anyone, I just want this game to succeed, if only because I have sunk so much time into it

Maidenname

I like to speak up too and I can relate to Rylana experience. My Guild started strong as well, being in the same Guild with my same friends in another MMO game/games for over 6 years. On launch week, we recruited well over 65 members of which more than half are first time MMO players. We were patient and helped each other to level. The phasing on many quests became a huge obstacle for us to go back and help those who haven't completed those quests or zone to our dismay. Bear in mind, our Guild is a pure PVE Guild and within a month, players after players unsub or quit the game. To keep a record how many players actually joined our Guild and quit the guild or quit the game totally, we decided not to kick non active members. As each numbers dwindled, we continue to actively recruit and in last few months, we are absorbing players from 'dying' Guild. But it is not easy at all watching the numbers of past active members stayed grayed and unlit for months.

Even though our guild is small but every day we run veteran dungeons for our members or run Guild events like skyshard hunt both in PVE world or in Cyrodiil and Dragonstar Arenas as well. Today our numbers of total recruited have grown from 65 to 136 comprised of both active PVP and PVE players, but the number of active members keep dropping too, currently at 25 only (that is if all log in same time).

Most players that quit didn't tell us the reasons but just unsubbed. It's disheartening because we spent much time helping to level them, show them how dungeons or trials mechanism works and help gearing them, but in the end, we have no way to motivate them to keep playing.

We can only hope Zenemax will step up and find ways to make the game better, add contents and fix Cyrodiil lags and bugs. The game is beautiful, but not enough to hold back players or justified their money spent monthly here.

jeevin

Just as an average player I was forced to guild hop several times just to stay guilded. It becomes too much hard work to find a new guild, introduce yourself and the rest that goes with it. As of now theres only one guild on my list and it's one of the bigger trade guilds that still has a very active player base through it's strict player policies.

Rylana

Well to cover all of the bases of those talking about large trading guilds still having strong active populations, I riddle you this.

Which is better, the 100 or so solid trade guilds with 500 members we had four months ago

or the 10 or so still going trade guilds we have today (supported by former members of the defunct 90 that closed up shop long ago)

Its all perspective, people. This game has lost a lot of people, and I mean well over half of its people, probably closer to three quarters. There is no use trying to cover up that fact.

The anecdotal evidence presented in the OP is just an example. Mind that i have tried my ass off to get some of those guys to come back (still talk to most of them every day in teamspeak while they play warframe and other games)

They wont come back until the game is in a good place, and right now it just isnt.

Are they gone forever? Hard to tell you, but what I do know is they were all really into this game, multiple v14s and high AvA ranks, and just up and quit all because of performance based issues (why pay for a game you cant even play because it literally lags for 30 seconds at a time in prime, etc)

Hell it even affects the PvE crowd, and you cant tell me it doesnt, because ive experienced the insane lag in a Spindleclutch run that made it completely unfinishable because no one could get into rhythm with the boss's pattern, youd get going well, a massive spike would hit and throw every timing off, and next thing you know half the group is dead because the lagspike screwed it all up.

When a game becomes a frustration and not fun, people leave.

Mocking them for it is both extremely poor form, and also laughable as hell, because the more people that leave or are encouraged to, the worse the state of the game becomes in the long term.

By all means cling to whatever passion you have left and mock those who werent having fun anymore, when the game fails because you fanboyed it like an idiot when the glaring problems are present for all to see outside of ruby sunglasses and discouraged the devs from ever addressing it because "games fine, works for me" you shoot yourself in the foot in the long term.

Just keeping it real.

Rylana

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Of course, your story is kind of belied by the fact that I'm in three active trading guilds, each of which kicks people after more than a week of inactivity, each of which is currently sitting at 500 players.

So while your friends from the beginning of the game may have left, they were replaced. Overall, the population seems to be fairly healthy, and people have been making the "My guild is losing people, therefore the game is losing people" argument since a week or two after release. It was just as bad an argument then as it is now.

LOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLLOOL

I bet you work for the government!!!

Hover over the names on your 3 trade guilds with 500+ players and see when they last logged on.

Ill give you 100k gold right now if you post a video and all 3 guilds have no one over a week.

He cant do it, i am in one of the big five and that one has about 100 members over a month last logged in.

though that guild has about 250 that logged in since wednesday (giving them the benefit of the doubt cause of thanksgiving) so even one of the bigger major trade guilds only has half of its number on daily.

And I wasn't aware that daily login was a criteria for guild membership in any guild, never mind a requirement for someone to claim that a guild is "active". Most people have lives. Most people will not play this game every day.

The fact is that you're drawing a faulty conclusion from insufficient evidence: day one guilds are losing people, therefore the game is losing people. There are plenty of guilds that have replaced all the day one guilds, and every report we've seen on game population has indicated a positive trend.

But I know that no force in the world can overcome someone's own desire to believe something they've already decided to be true. So this is more for the people who might see your individual anecdote as representative of the whole game.

What report, link these reports, zenimax has been SILENT as we all watch guilds collapse, zones empty, PvP die a slow death.

Are you really so desperate to prove me wrong and attack my premise that you stick your head in the sand and blatantly lie about the state of the game?

Ive been here since November of last year, ive seen the population drop, drop, drop, drop, drop. Every week, every month, fewer people. This isnt some brush under the rug "launch" leveling off. This is a bleeding, and a profuse one.

ers101284b14_ESO

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/search?Search=returning+player

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2nph71/considering_buying_the_game_just_a_few_questions/

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2nlqr6/i_really_want_to_come_back_but/

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2ni0jf/questions_from_someone_considering_returning/

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2nhtgl/eso_on_sale_another_should_i_get_it_now_thread/

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2ekak3/worth_coming_back_to_eso/

Yep Bleeding subs so hardcore people are coming back and starting new.

MrGhosty

I've had a personal guild up and running since day 1, we've seen people come and we've seen people go. No denying that there are some definite problems (finally managed to get into a vet dungeon and the end boss bugged wasting the hour we spent.) that are driving people away. I don't think the state of things is as extreme as the numbers may imply as I think we're just seeing things balancing out.

That said I think ZOS could benefit from getting a few more people on staff to squash bugs and continue getting more content out. If you look at it from a broad perspective some of what I would consider key aspects to an Elder Scrolls game are missing. We have no housing, no thieves guild or dark brotherhood, no justice system, no spellcrafting. The armor system could use some major tweaks and more variety, and that's just covering new content. On top of that the PvP (while better than it was in terms of balance and performance) still suffers and when you're not in just the right kind of fight feels pretty bland.

I love ESO, I'm still enjoying playing and I am fortunate enough to have a fairly active guild. With that said, it doesn't mean I don't see the blemishes and hope ZOS considers the OP's words and others like it and find a way to up their retention. It could very well be a case of seeing a diamond in the rough and being willing to either hold on until we start seeing these things, or taking some time away and coming back once the new stuff arrives.