Craglorn Archers - why so powerful?

GrimMauKin

I've had the odd LOL in the past when posting about Craglorn as it's clearly given me a rude awakening after the main game content.

I understand that it's a tougher group based environment but I can't help thinking that archers are somewhat overpowered. I've just but hit by a single arrow shot from a VR11 archer for close to 2000 damage and previously I've been hit by a volley for well over 2000 damage (the only thing that's hit me harder so far was a massive dungeon boss that took me out from full health with a single hit of 2958).

Aren't bow shots around and in excess of 2000 a tad overpowered when an uppercut with a two-handed sword from a VR11 MOB that knocked me 10 feet into the air did less that 400?

DezIsDead

Careful man some people might take this post as you QQing about bows bein OP and come in to flame ya. Agreed that npc archers seem a little ridiculous though. In cyrodill it's not uncommon for ppl to get get killed in 2 hits from the archer guard. And that's ppl with 2.5-3.5k health getting killed by 2 hits

GhostShadows

this is true, i can solo almost all bosses in Craglorn but cant solo a group of litle mobs if there are 2 or 3 archers!!!

pppontus

GrimMauKin wrote: »

I've had the odd LOL in the past when posting about Craglorn as it's clearly given me a rude awakening after the main game content.

I understand that it's a tougher group based environment but I can't help thinking that archers are somewhat overpowered. I've just but hit by a single arrow shot from a VR11 archer for close to 2000 damage and previously I've been hit by a volley for well over 2000 damage (the only thing that's hit me harder so far was a massive dungeon boss that took me out from full health with a single hit of 2958).

Aren't bow shots around and in excess of 2000 a tad overpowered when an uppercut with a two-handed sword from a VR11 MOB that knocked me 10 feet into the air did less that 400?

Volley is a slow DOT AOE. Don't stand in the red.

Also watch out when they shout "focused aim" and raise their bow in the air, you have a good long time to interrupt them - but if you fail to do so you will be punished by a very hard hit.

Basically it's game mechanics: block, avoid, interrupt. If you don't do that, it's supposed to be hard.

guybrushtb16_ESO

Are you talking about the attacks with gigantic, overly drawn out red *DODGE THIS* animation? I do think those are ok as they are.

GrimMauKin

Fair enough, I do roll out of the red as soon as I can and obviously try and get out of the way wherever possible but if you're soloing a group of MOBs that's not always easy.

My point really is that archers seem disproportionately powerful compared both to players and other MOBS. Hand-to-hand damage from MOBs seems similar to what I can deal out but I carry a bow and have nothing that comes close to dealing the sort of damage Craglorn archers do. I'm pretty sure that the 1900+ hit I took (described in the original post) was a Draining Shot (it certainly had knock back); my draining shot IV hits for 239 (I'm VR12) making the VR11 Craglorn Archers shot 8 times more damaging (even assuming critical hits, that's pretty excessive in my book). If a MOB stands in the area of effect for my Volley IV for the whole duration they'll take 570 as opposed to 2500 (or there abouts) I got hit for.

I get the fact that Craglorn is tough, but either bows are too powerful or other weapons need scaling too.

DezIsDead

I think I just lost my marbles, a bow user saying bow might be too powerful XD just playing. I agree with everyone saying don't stand in the red, but if any of you PvP you'll notice the npc archers are the biggest npc threat in an entire keep. So I see where he is coming from. Their hits are abnormally powerful. But as far as cyrodill goes, people have learned to adjust.

NadiusMaximus

Because enemies that hit for 7/8 your health is their way of making a game challenging, since actual use of strategy would require more coding.

People say it's too easy, add complex enemy a. i. Or just ramp up their hp and damage. Which is cheaper?

pppontus

NadiusMaximus wrote: »

Because enemies that hit for 7/8 your health is their way of making a game challenging, since actual use of strategy would require more coding.

People say it's too easy, add complex enemy a. i. Or just ramp up their hp and damage. Which is cheaper?

Attacks that are soooo extremely super duper frickin' easy to not get hit by, yes. Because they test if you can actually figure something out. Like .. mechanics, a challenge y'know? Feel free to suggest what is more appropriate than having to avoid and interrupt attacks.

pppontus

GrimMauKin wrote: »

Fair enough, I do roll out of the red as soon as I can and obviously try and get out of the way wherever possible but if you're soloing a group of MOBs that's not always easy.

My point really is that archers seem disproportionately powerful compared both to players and other MOBS. Hand-to-hand damage from MOBs seems similar to what I can deal out but I carry a bow and have nothing that comes close to dealing the sort of damage Craglorn archers do. I'm pretty sure that the 1900+ hit I took (described in the original post) was a Draining Shot (it certainly had knock back); my draining shot IV hits for 239 (I'm VR12) making the VR11 Craglorn Archers shot 8 times more damaging (even assuming critical hits, that's pretty excessive in my book). If a MOB stands in the area of effect for my Volley IV for the whole duration they'll take 570 as opposed to 2500 (or there abouts) I got hit for.

I get the fact that Craglorn is tough, but either bows are too powerful or other weapons need scaling too.

Need a screenshot of that, I don't believe it was a draining shot. 99% sure it was Focused Aim.

Mobs are not supposed to be like you btw.. you can't compare mob abilities to yours. Because you don't have to do 6 second animations when casting your abilities, you also know how to move out of stuff.. mobs don't..

But yeah, mobs are clearly OP. I'm gonna reroll a mob.

chipputer

pppontus wrote: »

NadiusMaximus wrote: »

Because enemies that hit for 7/8 your health is their way of making a game challenging, since actual use of strategy would require more coding.

People say it's too easy, add complex enemy a. i. Or just ramp up their hp and damage. Which is cheaper?

Attacks that are soooo extremely super duper frickin' easy to not get hit by, yes. Because they test if you can actually figure something out. Like .. mechanics, a challenge y'know? Feel free to suggest what is more appropriate than having to avoid and interrupt attacks.

They're too powerful for what they are, regardless of your perceived notions of what difficulty is or isn't. A vet12 scaled dungeon's final boss doesn't hit nearly as hard as they do.

Super buffed damage =/= challenging in any way shape or form (seriously, this is the entire problem with the dungeon scaling, as well). Causing that attack to, instead, lay down some serious CC on you, along with draining your stamina, leaving you a sitting duck for the rest of the enemies, would be bad enough, especially considering those archers nearly always come in a pack of 5 or 6.

Then again this is the same generation of games that usually have their hardest mode be, "enemies take 100 of your hits, you can only take 1... CHALLENGING," so I can't really fault the ESO devs for it.

GrimMauKin

I'm not convinced that it was a Focused Aim as there was knock back (which I don't get with my Focussed Aim), but I can't be sure. Even if it was focussed aim it was still a massive hit and probably 4 times more damage than I'd do with the same skill.

Mobs are not supposed to be like you btw.. you can't compare mob abilities to yours.

Fair enough but I'm talking about a disproportionate amount of damage compared to both players and other MOBs.

I'll re-word one of my original points in light of what people have said but I still feel that it's valid.

Bow shot - red targeting triangle, flashy red lines leaping out of the MOB's head; chance to dodge/block/interrupt - 1900 damage if it hits.

Upper cut with double handled sword - red targeting triangle, flashy red lines leaping out of the MOB's head; chance to dodge/block/interrupt - 400 damage if it hits.

It's not just that missile attacks are disproportionately powerful; thrown knives, spells, staff projectiles all hit for slightly more damage than you might expect in other zones but in line with what melee weapons do in Craglorn. Most humanoid MOB damage in Craglorn seem to hit me in the 400 - 600 range; bows are the only weapon attacks that regularly hit for 4 figure damage - you need to wind up some seriously nasty beasties to get hit harder.

I think that my original question still stands - why are archers in Craglorn so powerful? If it's because it's a tough group environment the question's still valid - as in shouldn't other weapon damage be equally powerful? The key word is disproportionate relative to other weaponry.

pppontus

GrimMauKin wrote: »

I'm not convinced that it was a Focused Aim as there was knock back (which I don't get with my Focussed Aim), but I can't be sure. Even if it was focussed aim it was still a massive hit and probably 4 times more damage than I'd do with the same skill.

Mobs are not supposed to be like you btw.. you can't compare mob abilities to yours.

Fair enough but I'm talking about a disproportionate amount of damage compared to both players and other MOBs.

I'll re-word one of my original points in light of what people have said but I still feel that it's valid.

Bow shot - red targeting triangle, flashy red lines leaping out of the MOB's head; chance to dodge/block/interrupt - 1900 damage if it hits.

Upper cut with double handled sword - red targeting triangle, flashy red lines leaping out of the MOB's head; chance to dodge/block/interrupt - 400 damage if it hits.

It's not just that missile attacks are disproportionately powerful; thrown knives, spells, staff projectiles all hit for slightly more damage than you might expect in other zones but in line with what melee weapons do in Craglorn. Most humanoid MOB damage in Craglorn seem to hit me in the 400 - 600 range; bows are the only weapon attacks that regularly hit for 4 figure damage - you need to wind up some seriously nasty beasties to get hit harder.

I think that my original question still stands - why are archers in Craglorn so powerful? If it's because it's a tough group environment the question's still valid - as in shouldn't other weapon damage be equally powerful? The key word is disproportionate relative to other weaponry.

I can agree that those numbers on the Uppercut seem way too low. Should definitely hit for at least 1K if you don't manage to block it.

GrimMauKin

I'm sure I'll get killed plenty more; I'll keep an eye on the numbers!

pppontus

chipputer wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

NadiusMaximus wrote: »

Because enemies that hit for 7/8 your health is their way of making a game challenging, since actual use of strategy would require more coding.

People say it's too easy, add complex enemy a. i. Or just ramp up their hp and damage. Which is cheaper?

Attacks that are soooo extremely super duper frickin' easy to not get hit by, yes. Because they test if you can actually figure something out. Like .. mechanics, a challenge y'know? Feel free to suggest what is more appropriate than having to avoid and interrupt attacks.

They're too powerful for what they are, regardless of your perceived notions of what difficulty is or isn't. A vet12 scaled dungeon's final boss doesn't hit nearly as hard as they do.

Super buffed damage =/= challenging in any way shape or form (seriously, this is the entire problem with the dungeon scaling, as well). Causing that attack to, instead, lay down some serious CC on you, along with draining your stamina, leaving you a sitting duck for the rest of the enemies, would be bad enough, especially considering those archers nearly always come in a pack of 5 or 6.

Then again this is the same generation of games that usually have their hardest mode be, "enemies take 100 of your hits, you can only take 1... CHALLENGING," so I can't really fault the ESO devs for it.

The challenge is in that you don't take "super buffed damage" if you have any clue whatsoever as to what you are doing.

I'll repeat.

Focused Aim - interrupt
Volley/Other AoEs - get out
Cleave/Cone attacks - avoid
Ground Fire/Ice/Stone - interrupt or avoid

This is why people are raging against scaling, they got so used to taking all the *** that you're supposed to avoid as the mechanics were so forgiving that (before) you didn't actually have to do anything other than aim and fire.

lorien1973

The archers? The wasps are consuming steroids by the boatload. Those things are ridiculous.

Vraneon

I love the uppercut animation, when somebody gets hit by it and flies through the air XD its sooo funny. And the best thing is when several two-handed npc do it in a row and then you friend gets hit by it and gets thrown over a cliff into the sea and dies from slaughterfish ahahahaha, and then I get hit by it cause I don't pay attention and get killed too, omg so hilarious, I love uppercut ^^. There should be more skills like this.

Sleep

Some archers can use a very powerful attack but they need like an hour to charge it so you have enough time to interrupt or kill them before they hit you with that.

Magdalina

lorien1973 wrote: »

The archers? The wasps are consuming steroids by the boatload. Those things are ridiculous.

I assume you haven't been to Upper Crag and gotten 1shot with 4k Taking Aim yet:P

On topic, I can see your point. Guess they just chose one type of mob to be the OP one - compomise between OP in general(where everything would hit that hard) and boringly easy.

Also, I both hate and love Taking Aim. Hate because, well, 3-4k damage, 1shot even through block, love because it makes the fight more interesting, makes you and your team actually pay attention and do something, not just spam impulse/healing springs and obliterate any number of enemies.
...also, I believe at vet DSA I was getting hit by Taking Aim for 8k. That was fun xD

Epona222

In Craglorn and Vet dungeons (even moreso than in 'normal' PvE), archers come next after healers. This is applicable in most cases, be it groups of mobs, or a boss with adds. Once you have got rid of the healers, you should usually focus on any archers - because they can do some almighty damage.

Magdalina

Epona222 wrote: »

In Craglorn and Vet dungeons (even moreso than in 'normal' PvE), archers come next after healers. This is applicable in most cases, be it groups of mobs, or a boss with adds. Once you have got rid of the healers, you should usually focus on any archers - because they can do some almighty damage.

In Upper Craglorn archers even take priority over healers. After you get 1 shot with Taking Aim 3-4 times, you learn to see the b...bad people and burn them before anything else.

clayandaudrey_ESO

pppontus wrote: »

But yeah, mobs are clearly OP. I'm gonna reroll a mob.

This is so worthy of a signature. This one sentence has made my day lol

GrimMauKin

Funnily enough, after watching a VR3 Nightblade pull together around 15 atronachts and spellfiends in the Spellscar area of Craglorn and fry them all with Veil Of Blades and presumably some other mass effect skill before moving on to the next load, I can see the point of big hitting archers. And archer would have stood back outside of the area of effect, put in a few big hits and put pay to this approach - which begs the question why is it just archers, rather than all ranged weapons that hit so hard and why leave them out in areas where they could limit this sort of grind?

I_killed_Vivec

lorien1973 wrote: »

The archers? The wasps are consuming steroids by the boatload. Those things are ridiculous.

Before Upper Craglorn came into existence VR11 wasps came in pairs - and left goodies in their nests.

When Upper Craggle arrived all the mobs went to VR13, and wasps came in threes.

Then they fixed the Lower Craggle mobs, taking them back to VR11.

But... wasps became swarming wasps, so now you have to deal with half a dozen - and they don't leave goodies in their nests.

For me, Craggle wasps are the equivalent of Morrowing cliffracers

Robocles

pppontus wrote: »

NadiusMaximus wrote: »

Because enemies that hit for 7/8 your health is their way of making a game challenging, since actual use of strategy would require more coding.

People say it's too easy, add complex enemy a. i. Or just ramp up their hp and damage. Which is cheaper?

Attacks that are soooo extremely super duper frickin' easy to not get hit by, yes. Because they test if you can actually figure something out. Like .. mechanics, a challenge y'know? Feel free to suggest what is more appropriate than having to avoid and interrupt attacks.

Pretty sure they don't test crap.... you know, based on their updates... just sayin'.

Leeric

There auto attacks are no slouch either.I've died at least 20 times because I didn't notice some bow dude in the giant mob standing outside of my aoe. Of course...that's also because of ESOs terrible weapon swap lag
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