Templars vs. Dragonknights

Mricci1988

Good evening everyone,

As a new player I prefer melee. I do not care about high end trials so please do not use the staff / robe meta as a basis for discussion...vet dungeons are probably the furthest I will ever get due to RL responsibilities.

As a Templar - I got to level 30 pretty fast and easily spamming biting jabs ^^ and then I felt I hit a wall with my shards and spear....it was boring as SIN and also just...low DPS in general...along with solar barrage and reflective strike it was good dps...but eh..
-
I am rerolling Dragonknight now and I got to level 10...yay...and I can barely take on 2 freaking mobs without getting my asskicked.

Why does everyone say Dragonknight DPS is so amazing? it feels brutal....

Right now using Volatile Armor, Molten Weapons, Dark Talons Searing Strike, Flurry as my main rotation for buffs and aoe / single target dump.

eventually will go S/B to be an off tank but I live for Dual Wielding...

Are DK's that are non-staff just simply better as tanks?

Are Templars that do not like healing and want to DPS just in general weak?

again - I am not a staff user nor ever will be...I refuse.

As a melee DWing am I just toast?

Please no flames - I just want a mature discussion to help answer my concerns.

Thank you team

Mricci

AshySamurai

About DK - you can be a dd without staff. Templars are pretty nica at tanking. If you are not min/max-er, then you can do anything on every class/race.

MissBizz

I'm a straight up caster/staff type, and always have been. I recently started up a 1hand and shield DK and am not having the troubles you are saying (just hit 11). I felt the need to explain I'm usually a caster as I'm sure you can imagine I need to entirely relearn combat tactics as melee. Tomorrow I'll pop by and let you know what skills I have on my bar, for all we know one makes a big difference.

As well, having VR toons I have the luxury of using crafted, green, traited gear. Maybe that will make up the difference we are having?

What seems to be the issue exactly though? Are you running out of stamina or magicka? Or just not putting out DPS fast enough compared to the mob? Do you know how to (and are) rolling, dodging, and interrupting attacks?

I feel the last question to be the most important. As I learned very quickly as a melee fighter, those moves are more important at level 10 melee than they are on my VR4 ranged. (Opinion)

Aeratus

In general, DW isn't that good at soloing because DW doesn't have any decent crowd control mechanism, which makes it hard to solo with. Also, DW isn't anything spectacular in dps unless you stack a ton of sets that boost weapon damage.

On the other hand, biting jabs is good at soloing because the final hit knockback will pretty much interrupt anything the mob is doing. It also hits multiple targets at once, which together with the knockback makes it an insane skill for soloing.

OrphanHelgen

One thing myself didn't know before I was actually vet 3. Bow, 2 hand, 1 hand & shield and dual wield damage, scales with max stamina.. (so does fighters guild skills I believe).
ALL class skills (and staff skills / mages guild), cost magica and damage as well SCALES with magicka. Even if it says it does physical damage, the damage is higher with spell damage and max magicka. So if you are doing dual wielding, and don't got the damage.. maybe it is because you are running medium armor, and put your skill points on magicka, and uses class skills for damage.. If you want most damage out of your DW, use the DW weapon skills, put points in stamina and go medium armor.
This is why dragon knights are good with light armor, because they get the armor/spell resistance they need by skills and passives, and they got the damage and can use all the benefits of their skills.

Last example:

Dragon Knight skill, Spiked Armor: Increases Armor by X for X seconds and returns X Physical Damage to melee attackers.

The physical damage returner to melee attackers, is higher if you have more spell damage or/and magicka. If you ask me, this is insane. What is the point of investing in stamina, if every single skills in every single class, scales with magicka.. ? even if you are stamina capped, you still drain your whole stamina bar , just for releasing yourself out from one crowd control. Then you stand there like an idiot, without damage or utility.


Best regards, Vet 12 dragon knight with stamina and weapons, who really try to make this works.

Dracane

I wanted to stop reading when I saw "I got to level 30".
Are you serious ? Already complaining in low level area ?

Reach higher ranks and complain again, that's where it gets important. Not on level 30, where you don't even have your skill lines maxed or all passives. Everyone is kind of weak at this point.

Blud

I am facerolling stuff with my level 23 DK. It doesn't matter whether I use sword and shield or destro staff. DK = EZ MODE.

But for sword and shield, I buff with molten armaments, then switch bars to: pierce armor (1h+shield skill), burning embers, fiery breath, volatile armor, dragon blood. The ultimate is Standard of Might (this is the DK "I WIN" button).

I don't even care what skills are on there. I'm just leveling those up. If I fight an undead boss (Thugrub, Level 23 double pip boss) I throw on silver shards (fighters guild) instead of fiery breath. I owned that boss without ever going below 80% health. It's easy to solo dolmens and world bosses.

I am running 2 heavy and 5 light armor. It's green crafted with set bonuses, so that helps. But the traits are all training, so that doesn't add any punch.

The biggest advantage though, is level 20 blue food that buffs my hp and magicka. Food makes a huge difference, I think.

Edit: My main is a VR14 Templar, so I know about the puncturing jab spam. I thought going in that a Temp would be a healer or a tank, so I didn't expect to level fast or easy. But DKs, wow. They are tanks that do sick DPS and have a self heal in Dragon Blood. How can that not be OP?

Khivas_Carrick

Templars = Amazing 2H DPS/Support DPS, good with a Bow too, and have the easiest time leveling.

Dragonknights = Amazing Fire Staff and 2H DPS, capable of DPSing in full heavy armor (although not as amazing as medium or light), moderate time leveling, best time end game as non healer role.

Both do very well with Dual Wielding, both do well with Destro staffs of other types (albeit Templar abilities are sub par for Destro staff when compared to other classes).

Both excel at being tanks, although many say DKs are better by a larger margin.

OrphanHelgen

so everything you are telling this guy, is magic and spell damage. He wanted dual wield melee. This game is bragging about the play as you want style.. How can you combine stamina weapons with class skills and do damage? pls tell me like, I am wondering the same thing as this guy posting questions you can't answer..

AngryNord

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Both excel at being tanks, although many say DKs are better by a larger margin.

I'd think that would depend a bit on race too, as some races (Redguard and Imperial) have racial passives that grant a boost to stamina.

OrphanHelgen

AngryNord wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Both excel at being tanks, although many say DKs are better by a larger margin.

I'd think that would depend a bit on race too, as some races (Redguard and Imperial) have racial passives that grant a boost to stamina.

Late game you reach the soft cap anyway, if the race got 6% more stamina or not. But doesn't nords have an awesome passive? damage reduction or something?

Anyway, to sum up and end this tread: You want hand weapon damage? Increase weapon damage and stamina. You want class skill damage? Increase spell damage and magicka. 100% facts. Heavy armor useless for solo quest.

Elsterchen

Hi there,
playing a rather non-magic-based templar I feel for you, I do remember a hard time leveling from lvl 30 to 35 as well ( for me it was a bit artifical as I was eating up half of bankorai because i didn't get the questline to send me to alik'r due to a bug and just didn't know what else to do).

I remember that around that time I discovered my shield as being an exellent weapon. Power bash just unlocked and I did enjoy the combination of shield-charge, light, light, (move in between) heavy ... look when the opponent is opening its mouth to cast a spell...) power bash (knock them on the head and catch some breath ^^)... rinse repeat... spice with puncture or backlash now and then.

Really the most useful skills from 1H&shield are in my opinion: shield charge, power bash, and defensive posture (absorbing magic and possibly healing through it will help you alot in the upper levels, try to train that ability as early as possible!)

DPS outcome in 1h and shield has always been meh ... fights take long and bypassers ALWAYS feel the urge to help u out (which can be frustrating as u try to grind the mob down in 5 mins and get it to 60% health and you really feel "yay" ... and then a sorc jumps in, wields his staff twice and the mob is dead -.-). As far as I tried, it there is no way around it - when I used 5 piece of medium armor/ 2 heavy to gain slightly better DPS - I noticed that viability is dropping significantly (I tried armor enchantments and jewellery to compensate but that wasn't enough for me). If I turned it around (5 heavy/2 medium) one successful knockback or stun of the opponent could mean loosing the fight due to break-free costs (I didn't have a self-healing ability at that time, nor any means of buffing my stamina-recovery (apart from jewellery) - the changes to devensive stance, biting jabs and other abilities were implemented at a later stange - so it might be easier to play this way now).
To make up for this I tried bow ... but finally ended up with DW - which works fine for me. I never tried 2h - it might be worth trying as well.

Hope you find something worthwhile trying... and good fighting!

edit: oh ... I forgot. Make use of the 9 trait-slots when using 1H&S. I am comfortable with 5 piece whitestreak and 4 piece alessia bulkwear, and able to switch between 5heavy/2 medium and 5 medium/2 heavy at any time. I use this armor sets for PVP, too ...
5 piece Ashen grip might be worth a try as well.

Rodario

I think you already found out which class you like more.

My advice to you is to continue leveling your templar and to disregard the class skills you don't like and use the ones you think are fun.

Templars have great survivability and are amazing for solo play and for tanking (also healing, but you'd need light armor and a staff).

For reference, here's my loadout for soloing:

7/7 heavy armor, main set: Hunding's Rage, secondary attributes about evenly split between M and S, spell damage enchant on jewelry.

2H bar:

1. Critical Rush - I've thought this over many times and I know it's useless in long fights, but I just can't give up the ability to charge.
2. Reflective Light - DOT on three enemies.
3. Puncturing Sweep - This baby will keep me alive as long as I have magicka, while dealing decent damage (The more enemies there are, the easier the fight gets).
4. Wrecking Blow - Alternating this and Puncturing Sweep lets me solo CCable World bosses (Replace with brawler for large groups).
5. Executioner - Gotta have an execute. Useful against gargoyles/trolls/high hp enemies
U. Flawless Dawnbreaker - For the weapon damage passive

I find that with this setup I don't need shields to survive, just magicka pots sometimes. I can also solo most public dungeons and world bosses.

2nd bar: S&B for winning a war of attrition with extremely hard hitting AND high HP enemies (DK bosses), and for tanking, ofc.

1. Absorb Magic
2. Honor the Dead - (Replace with Pierce Armor as a tank)
3. Puncturing Sweep
4. Blazing Shield
5. Purifying Ritual
U. Empowering Sweep

This mostly leaves my stamina pool alone, so I can use as many blocks and interrupts as I need.


I am not claiming this is the best possible build, but I do know there's no open world VR group content I can't solo this way. Plus, it's fun to me.

You might want to try a nightblade for a pure melee character, but be advised, the survivability isn't great.

Hope this helps.

firstdecan

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

so everything you are telling this guy, is magic and spell damage. He wanted dual wield melee. This game is bragging about the play as you want style.. How can you combine stamina weapons with class skills and do damage? pls tell me like, I am wondering the same thing as this guy posting questions you can't answer..

I played my main up to max level at the time (both VR10 and VR12) as a DW DK. I was probably not doing the best DPS in the world, but I made it all the way through Cadwell's Gold before the "difficulty nerf."

What I found is that you have to do exactly what you mentioned, combine class skills with the melee skills. I would usually use talons to root multiple enemies, then position myself so only one (maybe 2 if ranged) could attack me while I would pound them down. At lower levels stonefist was a good immobilizer, it's hard for a mob to damage you while he's on his ass. At higher levels Ash Cloud \ Cinderstorm work well for causing mobs to miss attacks.

I found the only two decent skills out of the DW line were Flurry and Whirlwind, for single target and multiple targets respectively. In and of themselves though they are not great, but combined with other skills they can have some good effects. When soloing public dungeons Whirlwind \ Talons \ Inhale was a good combo, and I could usually down a group of 6 trash mobs just by spamming those (Root with talons, hit inhale then spam Whirlwind).

The real synergies with DW are hard to take advantage of, the passives are geared to doing extra damage to enemies that are almost dead, knocked down, rooted, or stunned (one of the reasons I liked talons and stonefist). Because you have to spend an "action" doing a CC move to get that instead of a powerful attack, the bonuses kind of negate themselves.

I have since respeced my DK and gone Sword and Shield. I've found very little difference in the weapon damage, and have been able to hit softcap on weapon damage in either weapon skill. The weapon attacks generally do trivial damage by themselves, you're going to get more out of class abilities than the weapon skill lines. You also need the right armor to make a good DPS melee build, as that is the primary way to boost your damage and crit chances (Hunding's rage \ night mother sets as an example). Even then, you'll be dependent on your class skills \ ultimates for real damage.

The other aspect of using DW is that you really need to be good about blocking, interrupting, and using heavy attacks at the right time. This can get confusing with multiple mobs, but if you're standing there like a lump and just left clicking you are not doing yourself any favors.

The weapon power (or lack thereof) has been a complaint for a long time. Zeni has made *some* improvements, but it's still underwhelming. The "Champion System" is supposed to overhaul the combat mechanics when it rolls out, so any advice given will eventually be superseded.

I hope this is somewhat helpful, but I realize it's not the magic bullet you are looking for. The fact of the matter is that weapon damage is still not as good as magic damage. You can do fine with weapons, I "beat the storyline" as a DW DK, but it's not going to get you a min \ max "faceroll" build.

Khivas_Carrick

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

so everything you are telling this guy, is magic and spell damage. He wanted dual wield melee. This game is bragging about the play as you want style.. How can you combine stamina weapons with class skills and do damage? pls tell me like, I am wondering the same thing as this guy posting questions you can't answer..

My dude, I use multiple class skills as a Stamina Based, very very Stamina Based Templar DPS. It's viable, and if anything, sort of a must. Everybody uses their class skills lol Also, I told the guy what he asked; Which excels at what.

Leeric

Your level 30. Thats why.

Govalon

Name of the DK is a bit misleasing and that is why people are playing it the wrong way. It is obvious DK was intended to be fire mage and not a knight so "fire mage" would fit this class much better. Sure, you can play anyway you like but would you play class named "fire mage" as you would play a knight? The problem with DK lies in they way people think DK should play. The class is fire mage and you get most power for your buck if you play it that way.

AlexDougherty

Leeric wrote: »

Your level 30. Thats why.

My VR2 Templar is tougher than my VR2 DK, although I haven't tried them in PVP yet. As far as I can tell Templars are always much sturdier, while DKs have higher damage output, but I personally feel Templars get the better deal.

AngryNord

Govalon wrote: »

It is obvious DK was intended to be fire mage and not a knight

So that's whay most of the class abilities are geared towards the typical Heavy armour sword+Shield tank role. OK.

Govalon

AngryNord wrote: »

Govalon wrote: »

It is obvious DK was intended to be fire mage and not a knight

So that's whay most of the class abilities are geared towards the typical Heavy armour sword+Shield tank role. OK.

Nope, that is why most class abilities deal fire damage and enchant fire, because class is fire mage.

drschplatt

The DK does start out a little slow, but I've found that when I'm questing, the DK really shines when you start combining the good Damage Over Time skills with the Armor/Resist debuffing. You can really start to rip through stuff pretty quick that way.

Wing

if you plan on going stamina as a DK ill give you some tips for just that, DK, Temp, and NB can all go stamina, Sorc has a more difficult time (but it can be done) because of their built in magika regen and stamina eating heal promotes magika use.

anyway.
reserve your blue bar for buffs, and put most of those on your second bar when you get it.
-molten weapons: into igneous weapons (can last over a minute, great damage buff, and works while in WW form if your considering, and has the duration to actually be of use while in form, something surge cannot claim. )
-spiked armor: into volatile armor (lasts 20 sec. neither morph is particularly great, but if you have to recast it then the damage will generate ult, it also improves incoming healing because of passives while its up.)

as well as saving it for heals.
-dragon blood: into green dragon blood (if you have the blue bar to also keep it up every 20 sec as it will provide a nice bonus to your stamina and health regen)

also don't be afraid to sock some spells to augment your stamina damage
-dark talons: into burning talons (CC is awesome as it will let you peel enemies away and make managing mobs a bit less of a chore, it also boosts duel weild damage thanks to duel wields ruffian passive.)
-fiery breath: into engulfing flames (a nice dot that you don't have to spam and augments damage from both igneous weapons and fire damage on weapon enchants.
-Ash cloud: into Cinderstorm (20 sec duration damage, miss chance, and snare, all good stuff.)


as for armor I would go something like 5 medium and 2 light. this should give you good bang for your buck on all your skills, and spiked armor will still softcap your amor.

put all your level ups into health (has not changed since beta really) and enchant armor with stamina. if you have access to crafters hundings rage 5 with some ashen grip filler 4 (both weapons) or nights silence 4 (both weapons) or seducer if you want a slight bit more blue bar management. (both weapons again)

for weapons duel daggers or swords depending, add spell and damage pen as this is usually more damage then attack speed. crit chance is good to if your going heavy crit and not worried about pvp. and fire enchants to benefit from engulfing flames. (or whatever else you like)

As for jewelry fit it what you feel your missing: stamina, health, or magika, combined with weapon damage, stamina cost reduction, stamina recover, magika recovery, magika cost reduction, etc.

hope it works out

and my personal feeling is that Templars are better tanks then DK's, as well as better healers, but DK's can do slightly better damage, but all of DK damage requires you to get in their face and has no built in gap closer (and lets just ignore the chain, it does not deserve a spot on the bar.) where Templars have some good mass ranged options through spells like reflective light, blazing spear and the like. as well as a good built in gap closer.

overall these two classes are very close in play style, with the differences being in the fine print, if you enjoy one, you will probably enjoy the other. NB and Sorc share a similar style as well, though not as close.

both are awesome, and that's why I play both ^_^ I prefer them over sorc and nb because I prefer the fight or die play style, no escapes, very honorable.

-Wing

AngryNord

Rodario wrote: »

7/7 heavy armor, main set: Hunding's Rage, secondary attributes about evenly split between M and S, spell damage enchant on jewelry.

You use Hunding's on all seven pieces? (With a max of five item bonuses, you could mix from two diff sets and get the 5-item bonus from one and 3-item bonus from the other (if you include Your weapon).

Tonnopesce

Hi
I'm beginning today the final levelling stage of my dw + bow templar from vr 13 to 14.

Douring all the previous levels expecially from level15 to50 i have found extremly useful the templar aedric spear line, if you choose to go full stamina based you have 2 main problems : stun +cc and survive ability.
I reccomend you to go 5 med 2 light so you can have both roll doge bonus + weapon dmg (is important to stac weapon dmg in a dw build) and magica bonus due to the light armor passives ( you will use a lot of magica for healing and for stuns).

You as a templar have an opener that charge the opponent and stun him ( you have to be quick, the templar stuns are 3 seconds max) when the opponent is down attak him with all you have and if is still up the javelin will stun him again and on ( you need to do a knokdown pary to solo most zones)
At vr 14 i will use 5 hounding rage medium (+ 28 wp dmg) the ravenger elite set from pvp ( + 16 weapon dmg and 8% chance to gain + 58 weapon dmg when you are using a melee attak ( i know is heavy armor but at max lvl you simply dont care about stuns and cc you will use magica only for the close up and healing ) the rings will have also +15 and+13 weapon dmg.
And for the daggers you can choose any set that gives you someting interestimg at 2 items.
The bow is the same since 1 item does not give you bonus or you can use the same set as the shoulders since the new undauted sets has been released ( 1 item bonus)

I am currently a vamp and bosmer for the sneak bonus and the dmg bonus so the 3rd ring is for the fire resistance but you can use it to stak even more wp dmg.

Remember that on dw only one enchantment is applied with the skill attak (the main hand) and 1 works with the light, heavy attaks (the off hand) so you can combine different enchants ( now i'm using +14 weapon dmg on the main and disease dmg on the off )pretty useful fot try differents combos.

Have fun


EDIT: yeah i have forgot, as a templar you have the best skill of the game for a stamina user (opinion) : Repetance, + 15 % stam regen when slotted and activate has no cost and suck out stamina and health from corpse near you, even the non morfed is really useful + 15 % stam regen when slotted and + 15 % stamina and health regen when active you can softcap stamina regen only with this

Rodario

AngryNord wrote: »

Rodario wrote: »

7/7 heavy armor, main set: Hunding's Rage, secondary attributes about evenly split between M and S, spell damage enchant on jewelry.

You use Hunding's on all seven pieces? (With a max of five item bonuses, you could mix from two diff sets and get the 5-item bonus from one and 3-item bonus from the other (if you include Your weapon).

I know... that's why I said "main set". Since the secondary set only gives attributes, choose one that balances out what you're missing.