Wall of Elements

eventide03b14a_ESO

I don't think I ever died from wall of flames. I move when I see red sh** on the ground though so...

Thechemicals

riverdragon72 wrote: »

I don't know how many of these shots I have, some are for over 4k for one hit and 90% of the time bolt escaping through a keep breach

Razor caltrops 391 dmg.....the thing ticks for like 50 a second. How long were you just standing in it?

Lord Stark

I mean if its normal to hit for 1000-2000+ with wall of elements im just going to have to assume 391 is pretty normal for caltrops right

Agrippa_Invisus

The major issues with Wall of Elements (and the morph Unstable Wall especially) is that the explosion is uncapped and during large fights (especially sieges in the inner keep) it becomes exceptionally hard to see the ground effects.

The inability to see it is nowhere close to being all a player skill level. The larger issues are a) clutter (npcs, other players, enemy players, et al) b) that many spell effects get culled, often not causing the spell effect to show on the ground at all, and c) no ability to tell a 'good' wall from a bad one. There's no 'red circle of doom' around them that not even culling removes.

Cap the explosion from Unstable so it matches current AOE cap rules (not that I'm for AE caps, but please be consistent) and add a 'red line of doom' to encompass it.

The only other balance change I would make is so that wall 'refreshes' itself on recast instead of allowing a single caster to stack multiple. This is like how Cinder Storm (from the DK line) and Caltrops (from the PVP lines) work. Cast it once, it sticks on the ground. Recast it and it 'moves' to your new position. This would allow for a more interesting spell/skill rotation for Destro staff users as they weave Walls between impulses and other effects.

Fixed.

Joy_Division

Huntler wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Or maybe the skill is actually broken, as has been reported over a dozen times.

People have figured out a way to boost the immediate damage to a level bordering on ridiculous. There is a REASON everyone is using it, think about that for a second. People dont just mass switch to abilities willy nilly, nor does something become FOTM "because reasons"

There is obviously something wrong.

No, no this is not why people are using it. It is only broken if they use the unstable morph because the final explosion is uncapped. That is the only thing that needs to be fixed since uncapped is obviously unintended. People use it for that for the ulti generation and of course it being uncapped will hit a ton of people.

There is nothing else broken about it, everyone is using it now because the current meta and player skill is lacking horribly. Players are taking advantage of how stupid other players are (in standing in them continuously) coupled with in a big fight it can be difficult to see sometimes.

This is correct.

Rylana

Thechemicals wrote: »

Lord Stark wrote: »

It doesn't group up the damage tard, stop reaching. that was a single tick from caltrops.

one tick of caltrops hit him for 400 dmg? lol.

Because my weapon damage is in the 250s on a stam build, my razor caltrops initial hit is for about 250. Not unreasonable to hit 300 or so damage by crossing them.

Regarding elemental wall...

The problem is, I too have had this happen to me, and the funniest part about it, I didnt stand in it. I literally was not even IN the area of casting, one second later, KABLAM almost 6k worth of damage on five counted casts from one player.

I get it mate, youre crutching on a broken skill. Youre pointing fingers playing the "noob" card on everyone when i guarantee you I know what I am talking about.

In fact ive replicated the issue and already forwarded it to zeni about a week ago. Wont share, because I refuse to propagate this garbage further. Hopefully they resolve the problem asap.

Joy_Division

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

The only other balance change I would make is so that wall 'refreshes' itself on recast instead of allowing a single caster to stack multiple. This is like how Cinder Storm (from the DK line) and Caltrops (from the PVP lines) work. Cast it once, it sticks on the ground. Recast it and it 'moves' to your new position. This would allow for a more interesting spell/skill rotation for Destro staff users as they weave Walls between impulses and other effects.

Fixed.

That is not how the spell works.

As for WoE and the blockade morph goes, the damage ticks overlap, they do not stack. So casting multiple walls in the same area is a very large waste of magicka. This spell and morph are fine.

From what I understand, the Unstable explosion acts differently in that each explosion part is separate and does stack (and thus would be worthwhile to repeatedly cast).

Agrippa_Invisus

Joy_Division wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

The only other balance change I would make is so that wall 'refreshes' itself on recast instead of allowing a single caster to stack multiple. This is like how Cinder Storm (from the DK line) and Caltrops (from the PVP lines) work. Cast it once, it sticks on the ground. Recast it and it 'moves' to your new position. This would allow for a more interesting spell/skill rotation for Destro staff users as they weave Walls between impulses and other effects.

Fixed.

That is not how the spell works.

As for WoE and the blockade morph goes, the damage ticks overlap, they do not stack. So casting multiple walls in the same area is a very large waste of magicka. This spell and morph are fine.

From what I understand, the Unstable explosion acts differently in that each explosion part is separate and does stack (and thus would be worthwhile to repeatedly cast).

... which is why almost every player running wall currently uses the Unstable Wall morph of the ability.

I've wrecked multiple people in chokepoints with it. Just me. If I have other people also casting it, they completely evaporate.

riverdragon72

Thechemicals wrote: »

riverdragon72 wrote: »

I don't know how many of these shots I have, some are for over 4k for one hit and 90% of the time bolt escaping through a keep breach

Razor caltrops 391 dmg.....the thing ticks for like 50 a second. How long were you just standing in it?

1/2 a second maybe.. like I said it was a bolt escape through the door to the back flag.

Joy_Division

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

The only other balance change I would make is so that wall 'refreshes' itself on recast instead of allowing a single caster to stack multiple. This is like how Cinder Storm (from the DK line) and Caltrops (from the PVP lines) work. Cast it once, it sticks on the ground. Recast it and it 'moves' to your new position. This would allow for a more interesting spell/skill rotation for Destro staff users as they weave Walls between impulses and other effects.

Fixed.

That is not how the spell works.

As for WoE and the blockade morph goes, the damage ticks overlap, they do not stack. So casting multiple walls in the same area is a very large waste of magicka. This spell and morph are fine.

From what I understand, the Unstable explosion acts differently in that each explosion part is separate and does stack (and thus would be worthwhile to repeatedly cast).

... which is why almost every player running wall currently uses the Unstable Wall morph of the ability.

I've wrecked multiple people in chokepoints with it. Just me. If I have other people also casting it, they completely evaporate.

Yes, but please be precise when giving your feedback to Zenimax do they don't ruin another spell.

Your initial post stated the the unmorphed spell and the blockade morphs stack, which they do not. The only thing that needs to "refresh" is the timer for the unstable explosion.

Tripwyr

Blockade, Caltrops, Unstable Wall, Lightning Pool, etc. all tick twice as quickly while under the effects of the Purge spell. If you or anybody within several meters of you casts the Purge spell, all those affected by the spell will take twice as much damage and die very rapidly.

This is the cause of all issues relating to Unstable Wall, and this is why several "wall abusers" have started putting other similar AoE ground spells on their bars.

EDIT: This affects ultimates like Banner and Veil too.

Agrippa_Invisus

Joy_Division wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

The only other balance change I would make is so that wall 'refreshes' itself on recast instead of allowing a single caster to stack multiple. This is like how Cinder Storm (from the DK line) and Caltrops (from the PVP lines) work. Cast it once, it sticks on the ground. Recast it and it 'moves' to your new position. This would allow for a more interesting spell/skill rotation for Destro staff users as they weave Walls between impulses and other effects.

Fixed.

That is not how the spell works.

As for WoE and the blockade morph goes, the damage ticks overlap, they do not stack. So casting multiple walls in the same area is a very large waste of magicka. This spell and morph are fine.

From what I understand, the Unstable explosion acts differently in that each explosion part is separate and does stack (and thus would be worthwhile to repeatedly cast).

... which is why almost every player running wall currently uses the Unstable Wall morph of the ability.

I've wrecked multiple people in chokepoints with it. Just me. If I have other people also casting it, they completely evaporate.

Yes, but please be precise when giving your feedback to Zenimax do they don't ruin another spell.

Your initial post stated the the unmorphed spell and the blockade morphs stack, which they do not. The only thing that needs to "refresh" is the timer for the unstable explosion.

My error, then. Yes, I was referring to the ability to stack multiple explosions at once. This allows for some extremely powerful burst damage on a target.

asneakybanana

Joy_Division wrote: »

That is not how the spell works.

As for WoE and the blockade morph goes, the damage ticks overlap, they do not stack. So casting multiple walls in the same area is a very large waste of magicka. This spell and morph are fine.

From what I understand, the Unstable explosion acts differently in that each explosion part is separate and does stack (and thus would be worthwhile to repeatedly cast).

Ok so as you can see I was the one in the post on the bottom of the first page and yes i am abusing a broken skill blah blah blah. However i do not think that is true. when I use elemental blockade and cast it in a t around me i will b able to see the 4 effects on the ground at the same time. Also when i am defending a keep against a zerg and they blob on a flag I do spam it and have seen x24 hits fairly regularly but on a single cast i usually get only get x6 hits so this would imply that the ele blockade does in fact stack and that casting over and over does in fact stack the walls. When i do the wall stacking on a flag i have fairly regularly seen 6k+ DPS and it seems a bit extreme and definitely needs some fixing since with an ulti and impulse spam i usually only pull around 2k-3k DPS. Even back when oiling on the ground against blobs was a thing i would only be pulling around 2-3k DPS again. Thats just my 2c.

Agrippa_Invisus

asneakybanana wrote: »

Ok so I currently use ele blockade instead of the unstable wall because of the afformentioned la

Joy_Division wrote: »

That is not how the spell works.

As for WoE and the blockade morph goes, the damage ticks overlap, they do not stack. So casting multiple walls in the same area is a very large waste of magicka. This spell and morph are fine.

From what I understand, the Unstable explosion acts differently in that each explosion part is separate and does stack (and thus would be worthwhile to repeatedly cast).

Ok so as you can see I was the one in the post on the bottom of the first page and yes i am abusing a broken skill blah blah blah. However i do not think that is true. when I use elemental blockade and cast it in a t around me i will b able to see the 4 effects on the ground at the same time. Also when i am defending a keep against a zerg and they blob on a flag I do spam it and have seen x24 hits fairly regularly but on a single cast i usually get only get x6 hits so this would imply that the ele blockade does in fact stack and that casting over and over does in fact stack the walls. When i do the wall stacking on a flag i have fairly regularly seen 6k+ DPS and it seems a bit extreme and definitely needs some fixing since with an ulti and impulse spam i usually only pull around 2k-3k DPS. Even back when oiling on the ground against blobs was a thing i would only be pulling around 2-3k DPS again. Thats just my 2c.

God damn it, Sneaky, use paragraphs.

asneakybanana

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

God damn it, Sneaky, use paragraphs.

Those things are overrated.

Gaettusk

asneakybanana wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

God damn it, Sneaky, use paragraphs.

Those things are overrated.

Sneaky is on the forums? Get back in your cage!

WebBull

I must really suck. My WoE never does this kind of damage.

Gooey

So, the ONLY zerg wiping spell now has a new thread.

Lord Stark

Gooey wrote: »

So, the ONLY zerg wiping spell now has a new thread.

The problem is the damage it did to just ME, a single target.. wanting to effortlessly wipe a zerg isn't reason enough to leave an ability that isn't working correctly, broken. You can do so within reason. 2k damage is not within reason for a non ultimate aoe tick.

With my same set up ive been hit by DK standard, Soulstrike, Nova, Meteor, Dawnbreaker ect ect none hit for 1000-2000 dps..

The only thing even close it Bat swarm and its still never hit me for 2k.. 1000-1400 on a RARE occasion maybe..

Tripwyr

asneakybanana wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

That is not how the spell works.

As for WoE and the blockade morph goes, the damage ticks overlap, they do not stack. So casting multiple walls in the same area is a very large waste of magicka. This spell and morph are fine.

From what I understand, the Unstable explosion acts differently in that each explosion part is separate and does stack (and thus would be worthwhile to repeatedly cast).

Ok so as you can see I was the one in the post on the bottom of the first page and yes i am abusing a broken skill blah blah blah. However i do not think that is true. when I use elemental blockade and cast it in a t around me i will b able to see the 4 effects on the ground at the same time. Also when i am defending a keep against a zerg and they blob on a flag I do spam it and have seen x24 hits fairly regularly but on a single cast i usually get only get x6 hits so this would imply that the ele blockade does in fact stack and that casting over and over does in fact stack the walls. When i do the wall stacking on a flag i have fairly regularly seen 6k+ DPS and it seems a bit extreme and definitely needs some fixing since with an ulti and impulse spam i usually only pull around 2k-3k DPS. Even back when oiling on the ground against blobs was a thing i would only be pulling around 2-3k DPS again. Thats just my 2c.

Each individual player can only be damaged by a single wall per tick. You are seeing 24x because there are 24 players being damaged, not because the walls are stacking and dealing increased damage to a single player.

asneakybanana

Tripwyr wrote: »

asneakybanana wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

That is not how the spell works.

As for WoE and the blockade morph goes, the damage ticks overlap, they do not stack. So casting multiple walls in the same area is a very large waste of magicka. This spell and morph are fine.

From what I understand, the Unstable explosion acts differently in that each explosion part is separate and does stack (and thus would be worthwhile to repeatedly cast).

Ok so as you can see I was the one in the post on the bottom of the first page and yes i am abusing a broken skill blah blah blah. However i do not think that is true. when I use elemental blockade and cast it in a t around me i will b able to see the 4 effects on the ground at the same time. Also when i am defending a keep against a zerg and they blob on a flag I do spam it and have seen x24 hits fairly regularly but on a single cast i usually get only get x6 hits so this would imply that the ele blockade does in fact stack and that casting over and over does in fact stack the walls. When i do the wall stacking on a flag i have fairly regularly seen 6k+ DPS and it seems a bit extreme and definitely needs some fixing since with an ulti and impulse spam i usually only pull around 2k-3k DPS. Even back when oiling on the ground against blobs was a thing i would only be pulling around 2-3k DPS again. Thats just my 2c.

Each individual player can only be damaged by a single wall per tick. You are seeing 24x because there are 24 players being damaged, not because the walls are stacking and dealing increased damage to a single player.

Ah ok. thanks for the clarification trip. Also love the Nightblade name.

Sypher

You guys need to understand that your death recap works differently with DOTs.

All the complainers never provide us with any footage of them getting "one shotted" how about you show us footage of said "exploit" so we can actually asses the situation.

Rylana

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

You guys need to understand that your death recap works differently with DOTs.

All the complainers never provide us with any footage of them getting "one shotted" how about you show us footage of said "exploit" so we can actually asses the situation.

You mean more like figure out what the exploit is so people can replicate it and add it to their arsenal?

Thats what happens when people post videos.

Aoe_Barbecue

The "exploit" is not even the caster's fault in this case. Without giving people details, basically any large-ish premade is highly vulnerable. But it's still a bit of an L2P issue. Even when triggered, groups that move often and with purpose won't suffer from it.

Tripwyr

Rylana wrote: »

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

You guys need to understand that your death recap works differently with DOTs.

All the complainers never provide us with any footage of them getting "one shotted" how about you show us footage of said "exploit" so we can actually asses the situation.

You mean more like figure out what the exploit is so people can replicate it and add it to their arsenal?

Thats what happens when people post videos.

There is not an exploit. These users spam wall of elements toward enemy players (you in this case) which causes it to tick 1-2 times before you move out of it, then they cast another one toward you, etc etc. These ticks all stack, and mine ticks for ~119. To get a 1000 damage death recap, I would only need to cast it toward a single player 8-9 times if they roll out in less than a second.

Jaerlach

Tripwyr wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

You guys need to understand that your death recap works differently with DOTs.

All the complainers never provide us with any footage of them getting "one shotted" how about you show us footage of said "exploit" so we can actually asses the situation.

You mean more like figure out what the exploit is so people can replicate it and add it to their arsenal?

Thats what happens when people post videos.

There is not an exploit. These users spam wall of elements toward enemy players (you in this case) which causes it to tick 1-2 times before you move out of it, then they cast another one toward you, etc etc. These ticks all stack, and mine ticks for ~119. To get a 1000 damage death recap, I would only need to cast it toward a single player 8-9 times if they roll out in less than a second.

I think the issue is a lot more what @Agrippa_Invisus‌ keeps mentioning: that the aoe from the wall could be on the ground, damaging you during laggy combat, and you can't see them because those graphics were not displayed.

It isn't a L2P issue in situations like the one Lord Stark is in - he's in EG, so when he's on a flag there are probably multiple raids worth of people involved. Its quite possible for him to spend all this time in a wall he has no hope of knowing is there due to the vfx not being displayed.

As AOE says, people who are moving more frequently are a lot less likely to encounter this, even if there is some other wierd stacking issue or explosion uncapped hitting a lot of people, etc, the biggest issue is that people can be in the wall and not know it, or be in 8 walls and not know it.

This conversation isn't about spamming/cheating or even about balance, its about the difficulty of keeping track of what can be affecting you when there are so many different ground aoe effects, players, mobs, flags, etc interfering, and that the client simply does not display some of them after a certain point. A number of players complaining about this are experienced enough to not stand around and die in walls they can see. No one should expect them to be able to move out of an invisible wall in less than a second.

Sypher

I'm going to go out and do some controlled testing to put this case to rest....

Video will be up either tonight or tomorrow morning.

P.S I know for a fact that there isn't an exploit.

Tripwyr

Jaerlach wrote: »

Tripwyr wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

You guys need to understand that your death recap works differently with DOTs.

All the complainers never provide us with any footage of them getting "one shotted" how about you show us footage of said "exploit" so we can actually asses the situation.

You mean more like figure out what the exploit is so people can replicate it and add it to their arsenal?

Thats what happens when people post videos.

There is not an exploit. These users spam wall of elements toward enemy players (you in this case) which causes it to tick 1-2 times before you move out of it, then they cast another one toward you, etc etc. These ticks all stack, and mine ticks for ~119. To get a 1000 damage death recap, I would only need to cast it toward a single player 8-9 times if they roll out in less than a second.

I think the issue is a lot more what @Agrippa_Invisus‌ keeps mentioning: that the aoe from the wall could be on the ground, damaging you during laggy combat, and you can't see them because those graphics were not displayed.

It isn't a L2P issue in situations like the one Lord Stark is in - he's in EG, so when he's on a flag there are probably multiple raids worth of people involved. Its quite possible for him to spend all this time in a wall he has no hope of knowing is there due to the vfx not being displayed.

As AOE says, people who are moving more frequently are a lot less likely to encounter this, even if there is some other wierd stacking issue or explosion uncapped hitting a lot of people, etc, the biggest issue is that people can be in the wall and not know it, or be in 8 walls and not know it.

This conversation isn't about spamming/cheating or even about balance, its about the difficulty of keeping track of what can be affecting you when there are so many different ground aoe effects, players, mobs, flags, etc interfering, and that the client simply does not display some of them after a certain point. A number of players complaining about this are experienced enough to not stand around and die in walls they can see. No one should expect them to be able to move out of an invisible wall in less than a second.

Absolutely no question that the graphic does not display in many scenarios.

Lord Stark

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

I'm going to go out and do some controlled testing to put this case to rest....

Video will be up either tonight or tomorrow morning.

P.S I know for a fact that there isn't an exploit.

I know the thread has gone all over the place at this point, but I just want to remind everyone that my original post was to point out that this move in its current state is broken, exploitation discussion was never meant to be a part of it.

Lord Stark

I think the term "exploiting" is just being used differently by some people, they might say someone is exploiting just because they know the move is broken and use that to their advantage.
I think some people maybe taking it as them accusing others of exploiting to get the move to work in a broken way.