Proposed Balance Changes

decado0024_ESO

I would like to start off saying that I am loving the no camp gameplay. I will be even happier when all the hoarded camps are gone.

Ok I would like to talk and gather some ideas about balance issues. I know that it is hard for ZoS to balance classes and still make classes effective on PVE. Not that I care but please try and keep your suggestions to changes based off of that knowledge, hopefully ZOS will read this and maybe implement some good ideas. So the following are class changes across the board that I feel would greatly balance PVP, should be simple fixes and would have minimal to no effect on PVE content.

DRAGONKNIGHTS.
1. Apply the same cast timer(wind up time) to talons and reflective scales that are currently applied to SNIPE and UPPERCUT. I know ppl are going to rage at this but lets be honest DK's were not meant to be impervious to ranged attacks scales needs to be situational not a permanent immunity. A cast time would force them to pay attention to the skill duration to maintain that immunity and decrease the amount of running around spamming crap with a free pass on ranged. Same goes for talons yes im glad DK has an AOE root but the fact that they can and do root multiple foes and then spam roots endlessly to apply the dot and burn the stam of everyone trapped is kind of a bad mechanic.
2. Rework SEARING STRIKE to apply the same damage increase at low health that impale and mages fury have. Every class should have an execute.

TEMPLARS
1. Templars also need an execute. I haven't really thought of a skill rework but again every class needs one.
2. Make the passives from the healing tree of the Templar skill line synergize with the restoration staff. It makes no sense that DK's synergize with fire/destroy staff while your go too healer in the game cant have the same effect with resto staff.

SORCS
1. Being rooted is being rooted, There is no excuse why sorcs are able to STREAK out of Talons.
2. Streak should also not be able to stun back to back to back to back.

NIGHTBLADES
1. Remove BLUR its useless. Rework blur into some form of damage shield.
2. For the love of god fix stealth again. We have already been done this road before, how you managed to rebreak stealth is beyond me. Currently you cannot weapon swap without breaking stealth and oh yea you broke cloak again.

GENERAL
1.Casting thru block is bad. You should have to release the block button to activate any skill.
2. Implement a Calvin and Hobbes emote so we can pee on dead guys.


Well anyways those are my thoughts. Please feel free to add to them or troll them down.

Agrippa_Invisus

Quick correction on DK synergy with fire staves -- Our Ardent Flame passives were all reworked to only apply to other Ardent Flame abilities. We lost that bonus damage and burning duration.

Most DKs use fire staves because fire is in theme and it wrecks vampires.

I agree about block casting, with one caveat. 1H/Shield abilities should be usable while blocking, perhaps as part of the top tier passive in the skill line. But only the 1H/Shield abilities. This should help tanks still be tanky in PvE content (as current PvE content is designed with block casting in game).

I strongly disagree about talons getting a cast timer. They've been nerfed several times already throughout the course of the game and are relatively balanced already. Roll once and you get your immunity timer.

Speaking of immunity timers, all CC should provide it. 3s after the duration ends or the break free occurs and you can't be CC'ed again. This prevents chain streaking, chain rooting, chain anything.

decado0024_ESO

DAMN that 1h/shield is a good idea. I I didn't even think about that. Nice

Draxys

+agree with Agrippa on the talons timer, I just think the cc immunity should actually work after the ability ends or you roll out. Rolling out just to get rooted again is ridiculous.

*edit- I'd also leave searing strike and if DKs get an execute, make it that useless first skill from earthen heart, whatever it's called. I'm a DK and I don't even know. It moves so slow that the only viable use for it is if you're basically face to face with someone. Increase its speed and make it an execute and it might become usable.

Agrippa_Invisus

Draxys wrote: »

+agree with Agrippa on the talons timer, I just think the cc immunity should actually work after the ability ends or you roll out. Rolling out just to get rooted again is ridiculous.

*edit- I'd also leave searing strike and if DKs get an execute, make it that useless first skill from earthen heart, whatever it's called. I'm a DK and I don't even know. It moves so slow that the only viable use for it is if you're basically face to face with someone. Increase its speed and make it an execute and it might become usable.

Stonefist? The one with the short knock down?

Draxys

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

+agree with Agrippa on the talons timer, I just think the cc immunity should actually work after the ability ends or you roll out. Rolling out just to get rooted again is ridiculous.

*edit- I'd also leave searing strike and if DKs get an execute, make it that useless first skill from earthen heart, whatever it's called. I'm a DK and I don't even know. It moves so slow that the only viable use for it is if you're basically face to face with someone. Increase its speed and make it an execute and it might become usable.

Stonefist? The one with the short knock down?

Yea that one. I used it for a few days in the beginning of the game, but haven't touched it since because it moves so slowly.

Agrippa_Invisus

Draxys wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

+agree with Agrippa on the talons timer, I just think the cc immunity should actually work after the ability ends or you roll out. Rolling out just to get rooted again is ridiculous.

*edit- I'd also leave searing strike and if DKs get an execute, make it that useless first skill from earthen heart, whatever it's called. I'm a DK and I don't even know. It moves so slow that the only viable use for it is if you're basically face to face with someone. Increase its speed and make it an execute and it might become usable.

Stonefist? The one with the short knock down?

Yea that one. I used it for a few days in the beginning of the game, but haven't touched it since because it moves so slowly.

I only dredge it up if doing 1v1 stuff, which happens once in a blue never.

Sypher

Draxys wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Draxys wrote: »

+agree with Agrippa on the talons timer, I just think the cc immunity should actually work after the ability ends or you roll out. Rolling out just to get rooted again is ridiculous.

*edit- I'd also leave searing strike and if DKs get an execute, make it that useless first skill from earthen heart, whatever it's called. I'm a DK and I don't even know. It moves so slow that the only viable use for it is if you're basically face to face with someone. Increase its speed and make it an execute and it might become usable.

Stonefist? The one with the short knock down?

Yea that one. I used it for a few days in the beginning of the game, but haven't touched it since because it moves so slowly.

I love stone fist. Sure it is slow and has a short range. But the knock down is 3.6 seconds! With invasion, you pretty much have to be at full range to get close to a 4 second knock down.

Maulkin

I don't understand why every class needs execute. Does every class not need a good self heal like Breath of Life or GDB then?

Agrippa_Invisus

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't understand why every class needs execute. Does every class not need a good self heal like Breath of Life or GDB then?

And, to be fair, every class has access to Executioner from the 2H line.

Erock25

You can't Streak out of talons. You are still rooted at the end of the streak.

I'm surprised the OP is getting somewhat positive responses as I dislike everything he says. Besides the things that are wrong (DK passives helping destruction staff) there are also things fixed with the patch today (weapon swap breaking stealth. I think wings are very powerful but put a cast time on a 4 sec duration ability? Giving DKs more burst dmg and increasing their PVE DPS by a lot? Shaking my head at this post.

Maulkin

Erock25 wrote: »

You can't Streak out of talons. You are still rooted at the end of the streak.

I'm surprised the OP is getting somewhat positive responses as I dislike everything he says. Besides the things that are wrong (DK passives helping destruction staff) there are also things fixed with the patch today (weapon swap breaking stealth. I think wings are very powerful but put a cast time on a 4 sec duration ability? Giving DKs more burst dmg and increasing their PVE DPS by a lot? Shaking my head at this post.

The OP was one of the guys who suggested that Twin Sisters' 100% proc chance and damage stacking should not be fixed because it brought balance to the game somehow. He also claimed that fixing Twin Sisters was a NB nerf.

Go figure

AhPook_Is_Here

I am not fond of the ideas. I think we have enough of 2 lines of ranged dps shooting at each other. You need a tank class in this game to move the lines or it gets really boring. DKs and Templars both fill that role in different ways, neither of them need an execute because neither of them are DPS base molds. They can get an execute from weapon choices if they want one.

Block casting is essential to PVE, in DSA vet mode you can't stop blocking a boss and taunt, if you do you will be 1 shot with 4k health and capped resist/armor.

Without knowing aspects of the game beyond AVA these kinds of suggestions seem short-sighted. Unless abilities have two sets of rules, one for cyrodiil and one for other places, I can't think they'd be anything other than subscription breaking.

Sanct16

Reflective Scales is fibe imo. Its strong fir sure but after all every class has awesome and unique skills. For a class with no ranged options its fine imo.
They should rather rework dk chains as there is barely any use to it.

michaelb14a_ESO2

Sanct16 wrote: »

Reflective Scales is fibe imo. Its strong fir sure but after all every class has awesome and unique skills. For a class with no ranged options its fine imo.
They should rather rework dk chains as there is barely any use to it.

Reflective Scales is NOT fine. Watched a DK snatch 3 resources solo late Saturday simply by standing there spamming reflective scales, he used it to kill the tower mage, it then killed the healers in the center. He walked up the pin dropped a standard and moved on to the next. While yes, other classes have some ability to solo resources as well, none are nowhere near this easy.

It's NOW EFFECTING PVE so face it guys, it's coming.

autoexec

Reflective scales was perfect when each hit drained magicka from it ( i know it was a bug ) but I tough it was balanced then.. I don't remember how much it was but it could be balanced. Now any good DK just has it up all the time. ( Please don't tell me it costs alot.. you know it doesn't really if you can make a proper build ).

Can anyone explain to me why the tooltip of scales says "Spell Projectiles" yet reflects almost every single projectile?

The best day in ESO ( hopefully i'm still subscribed by then ) will be when all DK's will cry nerf ! I think everyone in Cyrodill will drown because of too much tears.

Sypher

autoexec wrote: »

Reflective scales was perfect when each hit drained magicka from it ( i know it was a bug ) but I tough it was balanced then.. I don't remember how much it was but it could be balanced. Now any good DK just has it up all the time. ( Please don't tell me it costs alot.. you know it doesn't really if you can make a proper build ).

Can anyone explain to me why the tooltip of scales says "Spell Projectiles" yet reflects almost every single projectile?

The best day in ESO ( hopefully i'm still subscribed by then ) will be when all DK's will cry nerf ! I think everyone in Cyrodill will drown because of too much tears.

The tool tip has said "All Projectiles" for close to 3-4 months now.

Sypher

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Reflective Scales is fibe imo. Its strong fir sure but after all every class has awesome and unique skills. For a class with no ranged options its fine imo.
They should rather rework dk chains as there is barely any use to it.

Reflective Scales is NOT fine. Watched a DK snatch 3 resources solo late Saturday simply by standing there spamming reflective scales, he used it to kill the tower mage, it then killed the healers in the center. He walked up the pin dropped a standard and moved on to the next.

It's NOW EFFECTING PVE so face it guys, it's coming.

And on my NB all I have to do is run in the middle of the guards and spam sap essence and drop veils as they come up to capture the resource. It just comes down to a method that works, all classes have a method.

autoexec

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

The tool tip has said "All Projectiles" for close to 3-4 months now.

My mistake then, don't have a DK alt YET so I was going by google.

michaelb14a_ESO2

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Reflective Scales is fibe imo. Its strong fir sure but after all every class has awesome and unique skills. For a class with no ranged options its fine imo.
They should rather rework dk chains as there is barely any use to it.

Reflective Scales is NOT fine. Watched a DK snatch 3 resources solo late Saturday simply by standing there spamming reflective scales, he used it to kill the tower mage, it then killed the healers in the center. He walked up the pin dropped a standard and moved on to the next.

It's NOW EFFECTING PVE so face it guys, it's coming.

And on my NB all I have to do is run in the middle of the guards and spam sap essence and drop veils as they come up to capture the resource. It just comes down to a method that works, all classes have a method.

Sorc? Templar?

Sypher

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Reflective Scales is fibe imo. Its strong fir sure but after all every class has awesome and unique skills. For a class with no ranged options its fine imo.
They should rather rework dk chains as there is barely any use to it.

Reflective Scales is NOT fine. Watched a DK snatch 3 resources solo late Saturday simply by standing there spamming reflective scales, he used it to kill the tower mage, it then killed the healers in the center. He walked up the pin dropped a standard and moved on to the next.

It's NOW EFFECTING PVE so face it guys, it's coming.

And on my NB all I have to do is run in the middle of the guards and spam sap essence and drop veils as they come up to capture the resource. It just comes down to a method that works, all classes have a method.

Sorc? Templar?

I haven't played those classes but I found stuff online:

Templar

Sorcerer: A mix of pet spamming to keep the ground guards stunned and negates will do the trick.

Asgari

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Reflective Scales is fibe imo. Its strong fir sure but after all every class has awesome and unique skills. For a class with no ranged options its fine imo.
They should rather rework dk chains as there is barely any use to it.

Reflective Scales is NOT fine. Watched a DK snatch 3 resources solo late Saturday simply by standing there spamming reflective scales, he used it to kill the tower mage, it then killed the healers in the center. He walked up the pin dropped a standard and moved on to the next.

It's NOW EFFECTING PVE so face it guys, it's coming.

And on my NB all I have to do is run in the middle of the guards and spam sap essence and drop veils as they come up to capture the resource. It just comes down to a method that works, all classes have a method.

Sorc? Templar?

I haven't played those classes but I found stuff online:

Templar

Sorcerer: A mix of pet spamming to keep the ground guards stunned and negates will do the trick.

I was able to solo plenty of resources on my sorc. Range down the tower guards with crystal frags and then meat the flag of your dps is low. Negate the flag and impulse them down. Granted I am vampire too so I could get bats up pretty quick and use it as added dps.


Regardless each class has a way to solo resource. Some easier than others.

Worry less about nerf this and that and focus on fixing current bugs and population imbalances. Then focus on class skills.

Erock25

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

Sypherpkub17_ESO wrote: »

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Reflective Scales is fibe imo. Its strong fir sure but after all every class has awesome and unique skills. For a class with no ranged options its fine imo.
They should rather rework dk chains as there is barely any use to it.

Reflective Scales is NOT fine. Watched a DK snatch 3 resources solo late Saturday simply by standing there spamming reflective scales, he used it to kill the tower mage, it then killed the healers in the center. He walked up the pin dropped a standard and moved on to the next.

It's NOW EFFECTING PVE so face it guys, it's coming.

And on my NB all I have to do is run in the middle of the guards and spam sap essence and drop veils as they come up to capture the resource. It just comes down to a method that works, all classes have a method.

Sorc? Templar?

I haven't played those classes but I found stuff online:

Templar

Sorcerer: A mix of pet spamming to keep the ground guards stunned and negates will do the trick.

Pet spamming alone with a negate won't get you anywhere.

Sorc need to change all their gear to a crit set up and drop a Negate with Impulse spam and Volatile Familiars to keep them CC'd after the Negate wears off. Problem is that Volatile Familiar only crits at about a 8% clip regardless of your own crit %'s AND those crits do not heal with crit surge on top of all of that, volatile familiar does not give you any ultimate at all. Not to mention how easy it is to hit Volatile Familiar a bit too fast and it complete bugs out and willl not spawn.

I can take resources solo but need a full gear swap and have to get extremely lucky with incoming burst dmg and my own crit heals.

decado0024_ESO

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

You can't Streak out of talons. You are still rooted at the end of the streak.

I'm surprised the OP is getting somewhat positive responses as I dislike everything he says. Besides the things that are wrong (DK passives helping destruction staff) there are also things fixed with the patch today (weapon swap breaking stealth. I think wings are very powerful but put a cast time on a 4 sec duration ability? Giving DKs more burst dmg and increasing their PVE DPS by a lot? Shaking my head at this post.

The OP was one of the guys who suggested that Twin Sisters' 100% proc chance and damage stacking should not be fixed because it brought balance to the game somehow. He also claimed that fixing Twin Sisters was a NB nerf.

Go figure

OK smart one. What I said was that the nerf to stealth damage was a nerf focused at nightblades. Sure its across the board but and I say this to you again, " show me any other class with a viable PVP build that is focused and based around stealth damage" . And as you cant do that you can shut up and stay on topic.

As far as Twin sisters set is concerned, It needed to be tweeked not nerfed. Sure procing on caltrops was wrong. But the proc rate was fine and one a moron would think the damage stacked if it was reapplied to the same person it wasn't stacked it was reset. Maybe next time you should fact check before you jump on a legit forum post.

And lets just be clear here so you are saying that because the root only applies after u streak away once its fine? So the 20 feet of distance u put between the sorc and the dk is fine? ***, its a root it isn't a root after u already get away.

MiyaTheUnbroken

The biggest and best change that could really bring NBs on par with everyone else is if they just fixed our ***. Seriously, fix the stuck in combat ***, fix the dark cloak ***, fix the stealth ***. It doesn't even make sense to consider changing our skills when the basic mechanics have not ever worked properly. We have no way of knowing what nightblades are truly capable of.

Also, thanks for the quick response on that weapon swapping ***. It shouldn't have happened in the first place, but since it took less than a month to fix, I won't hold it against you.

Erock25

decado0024_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

You can't Streak out of talons. You are still rooted at the end of the streak.

I'm surprised the OP is getting somewhat positive responses as I dislike everything he says. Besides the things that are wrong (DK passives helping destruction staff) there are also things fixed with the patch today (weapon swap breaking stealth. I think wings are very powerful but put a cast time on a 4 sec duration ability? Giving DKs more burst dmg and increasing their PVE DPS by a lot? Shaking my head at this post.

The OP was one of the guys who suggested that Twin Sisters' 100% proc chance and damage stacking should not be fixed because it brought balance to the game somehow. He also claimed that fixing Twin Sisters was a NB nerf.

Go figure

OK smart one. What I said was that the nerf to stealth damage was a nerf focused at nightblades. Sure its across the board but and I say this to you again, " show me any other class with a viable PVP build that is focused and based around stealth damage" . And as you cant do that you can shut up and stay on topic.

As far as Twin sisters set is concerned, It needed to be tweeked not nerfed. Sure procing on caltrops was wrong. But the proc rate was fine and one a moron would think the damage stacked if it was reapplied to the same person it wasn't stacked it was reset. Maybe next time you should fact check before you jump on a legit forum post.

And lets just be clear here so you are saying that because the root only applies after u streak away once its fine? So the 20 feet of distance u put between the sorc and the dk is fine? ***, its a root it isn't a root after u already get away.

Someone is mad about people not liking his ideas. Get over it, buttercup.

Maulkin

decado0024_ESO wrote: »

As far as Twin sisters set is concerned, It needed to be tweeked not nerfed. Sure procing on caltrops was wrong. But the proc rate was fine and one a moron would think the damage stacked if it was reapplied to the same person it wasn't stacked it was reset. Maybe next time you should fact check before you jump on a legit forum post.

Oh no. the proc rate was definitely not fine. Certain abilities would make it proc it 100% of the time and there are several screen shots of death recaps showing multiple entries from TS (as well as confirmation from the devs via Gina) proving that it did stack. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

decado0024_ESO wrote: »

And lets just be clear here so you are saying that because the root only applies after u streak away once its fine? So the 20 feet of distance u put between the sorc and the dk is fine? ***, its a root it isn't a root after u already get away.

I personally agree that you should have to dodge roll to get out of roots, but on the other hand I disagree with the increasing cost on streak. No other ability, whether it's a gap closer or a root has any cool-downs or increasing costs. If DK can spam talons fine by me, but then I should spam BE. Balance

Remember also Sorc is the only class with no stamina recovery by any means. Templars have repentance, DKs have a ton of them (gdb,any earthen heart ability, battle roar), NB have siphoning attacks. A sorc has none, thus if I get caught in melee range, sure I should have to pay the stamina to get out the roots, but then I should be able to BE to my hearts content.

Lionxoft

michaelb14a_ESO2 wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

Reflective Scales is fibe imo. Its strong fir sure but after all every class has awesome and unique skills. For a class with no ranged options its fine imo.
They should rather rework dk chains as there is barely any use to it.

Reflective Scales is NOT fine. Watched a DK snatch 3 resources solo late Saturday simply by standing there spamming reflective scales, he used it to kill the tower mage, it then killed the healers in the center. He walked up the pin dropped a standard and moved on to the next. While yes, other classes have some ability to solo resources as well, none are nowhere near this easy.

It's NOW EFFECTING PVE so face it guys, it's coming.

Any class can solo a resource both magicka and stam builds. That's not a good metric.

Lionxoft

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

I personally agree that you should have to dodge roll to get out of roots, but on the other hand I disagree with the increasing cost on streak. No other ability, whether it's a gap closer or a root has any cool-downs or increasing costs. If DK can spam talons fine by me, but then I should spam BE. Balance

Remember also Sorc is the only class with no stamina recovery by any means. Templars have repentance, DKs have a ton of them (gdb,any earthen heart ability, battle roar), NB have siphoning attacks. A sorc has none, thus if I get caught in melee range, sure I should have to pay the stamina to get out the roots, but then I should be able to BE to my hearts content.

Pretty certain it received a cooldown because it's an ability that significantly changes your position while applying damage (streak morph) and a type of CC.

Cody

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Quick correction on DK synergy with fire staves -- Our Ardent Flame passives were all reworked to only apply to other Ardent Flame abilities. We lost that bonus damage and burning duration.

Most DKs use fire staves because fire is in theme and it wrecks vampires.

I agree about block casting, with one caveat. 1H/Shield abilities should be usable while blocking, perhaps as part of the top tier passive in the skill line. But only the 1H/Shield abilities. This should help tanks still be tanky in PvE content (as current PvE content is designed with block casting in game).

I strongly disagree about talons getting a cast timer. They've been nerfed several times already throughout the course of the game and are relatively balanced already. Roll once and you get your immunity timer.

Speaking of immunity timers, all CC should provide it. 3s after the duration ends or the break free occurs and you can't be CC'ed again. This prevents chain streaking, chain rooting, chain anything.

talons have an immunity timer?

Cody

they really need to fix stealth and keep it fixed. im tired of having to run 15 miles away from the battle just to restealth from an enemy that is on the other side of the keep.

all classes need an execute. its one of the reasons i dont play a lot of DKs and templars.

BE should not stun people at all. its an escape ability, not offenseive. it should be treated as such