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A different Nightblade discussion (NB tank)

xaraan
xaraan
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I know tanking isn't the go-to style for a Nightblade, but I enjoy it and do well with it. I have another tank (DK) and building up a templar tank, both of those are probably the best classes to tank with. But in playing all the classes in various roles, it has lead me to a couple of observations and ideas. Sorry to those tired of us NBs whining about our class.

Also, the game is kind of about 'play how you want'. I know that doesn't mean every way someone plays should be powerful, my point here is more about providing similar tools to perform various roles to each class and I think the NB class was overlooked in the area of explanding beyond the initial concept of the class. With that being said, here are my thoughts...

1. Self-heals. Nightblades have some good self-heals for an assassin style class I think, they all rely on doing damage (or even having already killed your opponent, which doesn't help much in tanking). This does provide some handicaps occasionally, but also can be a bonus b/c it does a little damage (you aren't usually doing as much as a tank b/c you aren't magicka focused in light armor and spell power). I don't expect a dragon's blood, breath of life, etc. power where you can just heal up, BUT what we do have doesn't equal what the other classes have in way of big heals (during a fight). My thought is having the HoT effect from funnel health give double the return on the first tick - You're talking going from 100 health tick to a 200 health tick - not exactly the same as gaining back 1/3 of your health from one skill use, but it would allow a player to at least spam a few of them (since the ticks don't stack, they just over-ride) to try and heal up a bit by getting that first initial heal that is a little bigger. This stays in the NB school of doing damage for heal, still requires someone to hit that heal 3-4 times to get the same health as a dragon blood or breath of life and isn't so powerful that a magicka based character would be anymore powerful than those other classes with big heals.

2. Protection/Shields. We really don't have any. Every other class has a way, some multiple ways to conjure up shields and additional armor and spell resist. We have neither, nadda, nothing (sticking with class skills here, not talking undaunted/armor skills - though that is what I make use of now). I've used blur occasionally, but a 15% miss chance isn't quite comparable (especially considering a dk can do cinder storm and get double that miss chance, plus a DoT, plus snare, all from that one power). Normally, blur isn't worth using. Perhaps creating new morphs of blur, one could up the miss chance for the entire time instead of a few seconds it's active (for mobile characters) - I mean, giving them the same chance as cinder storm isn't going to be op IMO. And the other morph could keep the smaller chance and add 500 armor/sr or some sort of shield (still much lower than bonuses other class skills give). As it is now blur isn't that great, and the morphs barely worth morphing - at least this would make the skill useful and give NBs a sort of shield ability (since templars have rune focus, sorcs have bound armor, ward, dks have ign shield, spiked armor, reflect, etc etc).

Edit: The champion system actually makes me worry about this issue even more. Once soft caps are removed, then for example all 4 classes could build the same setup I currently have on my NB for same stats - except all 3 other classes can buff their armor, spell resist or shields on top of all those same stats. A NB cannot (yes, they have access to two VERY SHORT duraction buffs in heavy armor and undaunted line, it's not equal to what other classes have).

3. CC. The nightblade options for cc are kind of lackluster (templars are in this house with us I guess). Our options are Agony, Cripple and Fear. Fear is great when you are solo or pvp, but doesn't work very well tanking wise (at least to run it consistently - it can be useful here or there). Agony is pretty worthless (I mean, I've found a use literally once or twice since launch, so not totally worthless lol). Agony could be replaced with more of a soft/aoe style cc like talons or the sorc one or at least not end when taking damage and making it have to be broken out of. Personally, I think the aoe thing sounds better, but something seems meh with that power. Cripple is nearly in that boat. It is a decent dot, but the animation is so long that tbh its not worth the waste of time casting it when im dpsing to use it. I think again, having two morphs that separate the skill more would help - one that keeps it as is almost like Crippling Grasp morph and then another that turns it into an AoE that does less damage but gives a little large CC ability to the class by slowing a group of mobs down.

I realize that spell crafting may offer solutions to some of this, but I also think that spell crafting should not be a replacement for balancing/fixing/improving classes. The three ideas I posted here are small changes to three skills that would take a step toward solving the three problems I posted. They wouldn't make the class OP imo (in fact most are still weaker than other classes versions I compared them to), or out of balance for a player that was playing a dps or healer build either and they stay with the spirit of the class.
Edited by xaraan on December 4, 2014 8:05AM
NA • PC • AD • Characters (Breton MagDD, Khajiit StamDD, Argonian Tanks):
Templars --- Sanctifier: Xåraan • Spirit Seeker: Xaraan-do • Shadow Breaker: Xaraanosaur
Wardens --- Guardian of the Green: Xa'rana (Spriggan) • Clanfriend: Xaraan-jo • Kyne's Will: Xaraanodon
Dragon Knights --- Tin Soldier: Xãraan • Huntmaster: Xaraan-da • Undaunted: Xaraanosaurus
Necromancers --- Witch: Xaraana • Silencer: Xaraan-qa • Hist-Shadow: Xaraan-Vahat
Sorcs --- Master Historian: Xa'Raan • Stormproof: Xaraan-ra • Storm Foe: Xaraanosorcus
Nightblades --- Sun's Dusk Reaper: Xa-Raan • Scoundrel: Xaraan-dar • Hist Shadow: Xaraan
-- Dozen+ Open Houses listed on EHT, Feel free to stop by and visit anytime! --
[vAAhm, vHRChm, vSOhm, vDSA, vMoLhm, vMA(FC), vHoFhm, vAS+2, vCR+3, vSShmx3, vKAhmx3, VA]
  • Cody
    Cody
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    the class really needs a damage shield of some kind.

    i myself am willing to overlook the fact that we dont have any kind of good, quick, reliable self heals, but we really need some kind of damage shield.

    blur is an excellent abiltiy to replace with a damage shield. There is absolutly NO reason to use blur. the other classes dodge abilties have almost twice the chance, not to mention i can just go DW and use sparks, which gives a 100% dodge rating(at least to melee attacks)
  • TheBull
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    Cody wrote: »
    the class really needs a damage shield of some kind.

    i myself am willing to overlook the fact that we dont have any kind of good, quick, reliable self heals, but we really need some kind of damage shield.

    blur is an excellent abiltiy to replace with a damage shield. There is absolutly NO reason to use blur. the other classes dodge abilties have almost twice the chance, not to mention i can just go DW and use sparks, which gives a 100% dodge rating(at least to melee attacks)
    On top of that blur cost as much as cloak which gives 100% chance to miss...
  • Suntzu1414
    Take a look at Bone Shield (undaughted).
    As a possible.

    Also, don't forget pots.
    If you max out your Alchemy (passive) + NB Pots (passive) + Ring x2(Pots)

    You could have 1.5k Shield almost forever (with no mag/stam cost)


    Kill Well
    ST
    DC - NB VR15 - Khajit - DW / S+B / Bow
    DC - NB VR 15 - Wood Elf - S+B / Resto
    DC - TP VR 15 - Brenton - Resto / Dual Wield
    DC - SC VR 12 - High Elf - Desto / Dual Wield
    EP - TP VR 5 - Nord - 2hd / 2hd
    EP - DK 20 - Imperial - S+B / Desto / Bow
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    Already use bone shield - not that great - doesn't offer SR for one and doesn't last that long - makes a better shield for others than for the caster IMO since it only adds armor to caster and not a shield (and it's such a high amount of armor that it gets so far over cap that it doesn't do much in that area either - it adds less than 1k to my armor for 6 seconds and I believe over hardcap mitigation so doing even less).

    Also, already make use of pots (with enchants and all passives) - after playing other tank classes, they don't make up for self heals (especially when you consider all other classes get those same pots + heals). But, that being said, pots are pretty much the only great option right now.

    And remember, I am talking standing on equal footing to build off of, not just getting through content. We manage most all high end content with no problems, but the few things I posted are what bring the class short on the highest/hardest content.

    It's very interesting to start looking at the classes individually, (not counting FG, MG or whatever) and seeing how the NB class comes off as an afterthought. It's the only class with no shields/armor/SR buff and the only class without a great self heal. Many point to siphoning's funnel health, and it's fine for a small HoT. Sap is ok when you are surrounded by a bunch of people that can be taken out easily (it doesn't do much damage) and don't hit crazy hard (it doesn't heal super huge). Even compared to my sorc, I get health back everytime I crystal shard, I get health back everytime I crit (crit surge) and can dark exchange if I really just need a burst heal without doing damage (and also has a healing familiar if I remember correctly). NBs lack the self heal outside of doing damage and their only big damaging heals are ones you get for killing something - making it not useful often when you need it in boss fights).

    I don't think my ideas were crazy. I don't give NBs a self heal. I simply gave them the ability to spam funnel and build up a heal with the initial hit (b/c if you spam it now it's just for damage and simply gives you the same HoT as if you cast it once). It keeps them in the same 'feel' of their healing abilities, but helps even things out just a bit. As for the shield: blur isn't that great as is, my idea simply splits it into two forms: one was more tanky and would be good for caster or tank classes, the other more mobile and would be good for agility based classes (and makes the skill worth slotting and even morphing).
    NA • PC • AD • Characters (Breton MagDD, Khajiit StamDD, Argonian Tanks):
    Templars --- Sanctifier: Xåraan • Spirit Seeker: Xaraan-do • Shadow Breaker: Xaraanosaur
    Wardens --- Guardian of the Green: Xa'rana (Spriggan) • Clanfriend: Xaraan-jo • Kyne's Will: Xaraanodon
    Dragon Knights --- Tin Soldier: Xãraan • Huntmaster: Xaraan-da • Undaunted: Xaraanosaurus
    Necromancers --- Witch: Xaraana • Silencer: Xaraan-qa • Hist-Shadow: Xaraan-Vahat
    Sorcs --- Master Historian: Xa'Raan • Stormproof: Xaraan-ra • Storm Foe: Xaraanosorcus
    Nightblades --- Sun's Dusk Reaper: Xa-Raan • Scoundrel: Xaraan-dar • Hist Shadow: Xaraan
    -- Dozen+ Open Houses listed on EHT, Feel free to stop by and visit anytime! --
    [vAAhm, vHRChm, vSOhm, vDSA, vMoLhm, vMA(FC), vHoFhm, vAS+2, vCR+3, vSShmx3, vKAhmx3, VA]
  • Lynx7386
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    Blur should definitely be a damage shield instead of the pitiful evade it is now.
    I also think mark should have the penalties for the nightblade removed.

    Summon shade should be reworked entirely, as well.
    Edited by Lynx7386 on December 15, 2014 11:00PM
    PS4 / NA
    M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
    Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
    Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
    Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
    Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank
  • Ysne58
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    The other thing is, at least with my NBs, they seem to always draw the mobs to them -- I almost have to be at least slightly tanky because of that.
  • xaraan
    xaraan
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    Ysne58 wrote: »
    The other thing is, at least with my NBs, they seem to always draw the mobs to them -- I almost have to be at least slightly tanky because of that.

    This is like a going joke in my group -- from launch to now, if aggro is lost the boss heads straight towards me. We wondered if maybe the combination of doing dps, DoTs, heals (with funnel) and archery (I used a bow) all combined to some sort of perfect storm of aggro.
    NA • PC • AD • Characters (Breton MagDD, Khajiit StamDD, Argonian Tanks):
    Templars --- Sanctifier: Xåraan • Spirit Seeker: Xaraan-do • Shadow Breaker: Xaraanosaur
    Wardens --- Guardian of the Green: Xa'rana (Spriggan) • Clanfriend: Xaraan-jo • Kyne's Will: Xaraanodon
    Dragon Knights --- Tin Soldier: Xãraan • Huntmaster: Xaraan-da • Undaunted: Xaraanosaurus
    Necromancers --- Witch: Xaraana • Silencer: Xaraan-qa • Hist-Shadow: Xaraan-Vahat
    Sorcs --- Master Historian: Xa'Raan • Stormproof: Xaraan-ra • Storm Foe: Xaraanosorcus
    Nightblades --- Sun's Dusk Reaper: Xa-Raan • Scoundrel: Xaraan-dar • Hist Shadow: Xaraan
    -- Dozen+ Open Houses listed on EHT, Feel free to stop by and visit anytime! --
    [vAAhm, vHRChm, vSOhm, vDSA, vMoLhm, vMA(FC), vHoFhm, vAS+2, vCR+3, vSShmx3, vKAhmx3, VA]
  • Ysne58
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    I think it's being a squishy nightblade. I don't use a bow, but resto/destro staff.
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