Proposal: Thu'um Tree and Whiterun Hold

Pmarsico9

It's great to see the stuff that's incoming next week. Beyond Spellcrafting and moving forward, a tree that only provides an ultimate.

Basically, lore-wise, the two southwestern holds of Skyrim are now open to Ebonheart Pact players as well as Veterans of the Aldmeri Dominion and the Daggerfall Covenant.

During this time frame, the Reach is unconquered. Hjalti Early-Beard, aka Tiber Septim has not even been born as of yet, in fact the Soulburst happened 300 years prior to Talos' birth. And it's occurring an extremely long period of time prior to the Dragonborn's defeat of Alduin, Harkon, and Miraak.

Directly adjacent via the Northeast to the Rift and nearly due East of Eastmarch is the Whiterun Hold. This is a massive zone and also borders at its far East, the Reach.

The Reachmen have a presence in ESO already, especially in Bangkorai, and another zone that I can't remember off the top of my head. Needless to say, to figure that the Reachmen would be encroaching into Whiterun Hold is not a stretch. In fact, it would be largely tied to holding back the Reachmen from encroaching into Eastmarch and the palace of the High King of Skyrim. I understand this matters not at all to either the DC or AD thematically, that's not the carrot for them.

Within Whiterun Hold exists the Throat of the World and High Hrothgar. The encroaching Reachmen are impacting the Greybeards and they need everybody's help because the threat looms large. In return for your assistance, they are going to teach you a single shout. Before you say "Why only one?" the first thing you have to realize is that you aren't Dragonborn. Nor were you born with it ala Ulfric Stormcloak.

You are going to pick which shout you will get and it will be an ultimate with a few passives that will bolster your ultimate generation and provide some buffs to you based on your ultimate levels that is largely based upon which Thu'um Ultimate you pick. The overarching goal is to not only provide you with an interesting decision regarding your ultimate, but to also tie a much stronger choice beyond whether you have enough ultimate to use your ultimate or not.

Additionally, there will be some new crafted sets and the zones delves and world bosses will be tied to being group content, but the overarching questing will be tied to solo play, with scaling up if you choose to do them as groups. The delves and world bosses won't be needed to complete the Thu'um quest line, but will provide very high drop rates for really good gear with strong set bonuses.

Whiterun, the city, will have to be liberated from the Reachmen, and at that point the city will be turned into a major trade hub, with more potential guild vendors than any other. The city of Whiterun will have trade guilds and unions in it that will allow you to begin establishing you a resource train to eventually buy a plot of land in Cyrodiil and start feeding supplies and crafters to said spot to begin building your plot. Your plot will only be active on your home campaign and will not be instanced but will be guarded by NPCs you also hire.

Beyond that, the actual Thu'um trees, remember you can pick one and only one, and will have to undergo a weeklong series of quests to change it with a one month cooldown between being able to change it. This is not something that should be easy to change and it should be a commitment you want.

Active choices. The duration and effectiveness of the Active Shouts increases per every 100 Ultimate you have. However, you cannot generate ultimate while they are active and they all provide both an Active effect and a passive buff with a duration based upon the amount of Ultimate spent on the Thu'um Utilized.

Stendarr's Shield:

Fus-Ha-Qah: Force-Mind-Armor

You force all enemies within 20 meters to attack you for 5/10/15/20/25 seconds and decrease all damage you take by 5/10/15/20/25% for the same duration. Taunt portion does not function on player characters but does work on player pets.

Mara's Mercy:

Laas-Shaan-Gar: Life-Inspire-Unleash

You reduce the damage taken of all friendly targets within 20 meters by 5/10/15/20/25% for 2/4/6/8/10 seconds and all of your healing is increased by 2/4/6/8/10% for 5/10/15/20/25 seconds.

Julianos' Knowledge:

Gaan-Lah-Dun: Stamina-Magicka-Grace

Your magicka and stamina regeneration is increased by 10/20/30/40/50% for 3/5/10/15/20 seconds and you gain a shield equal to 100% of your health that lasts until consumed.

Shout of the Unborn Divine:

Fus-Roh-Dah: Force-Balance-Push

The power of Skyrim pulses through you and makes your next 1/2/3/4/5 abilities deal an additional 250 Frost damage, automatically crit, and increases your critical strike damage by 10/20/30/40/50 on those abilities. This works on both stamina and magicka based abilities.

Yes, I'm nostalgic.......

Dismay of Arkay:

Faas-Viik-Mar: Fear-Defeat-Terror

Targets within 20 meters drop their weapons in terror of your Thu'um and are unable to act for .5/1/1.5/2/3 seconds. Afterward, they have a 25% chance to miss you with their attacks for 5/10/15/20/25 seconds. Debuff does not stack from multiple applications.

The Chosen of Akatosh:

Gar-Diiv-Mul: Unleash-Wyrm-Strength

You summon the spirit of The Dragon Aspect to assist you for 5/10/15/20/25 seconds. He deals damage equal to 50% of yours and cannot critically strike. You also divert 50% of the damage you receive to his visage.

The Toils of Zenithar:

Mid-Vur-Shaan: Loyal-Valor-Inspire

All friendly targets within 20 meters of you deal 2/4/6/8/10% more damage, and you deal an additional 1/2/3/4/5% on top of that for 15 seconds.

Passives:

Bargain of the Betrayer: The Gift of Paarthurnax bestowed upon Men, Furries, and Lizards, and Mer let's you deal .025/.05% extra damage resistance/armor bypass but costs .015/.04% armor and spell resistance per point of ultimate you have while the Thu'um is your equipped ultimate. Maximum bonus is 25% damage and spell/armor penetration and 20% reduction in both armor and spell resistance. The damage bonus is a proc and cannot crit. It will display as "Bargain of the Betrayer" and deal additional damage based on the ability that procs it.

Keep in mind that this is written from the perspective that Heavy Armor damage reduction caps will be much higher than they currently are, meaning Heavy Armor tanks won't get slaughtered by the protection decreases.

Calm of the Windcaller: The Greybeard training helps you maintain a calm center while in combat and you gain a boost of .025/.05% of your magicka and stamina recovery per point of ultimate, but abilities cost .015/.04% more per point. Maximum boost is 50% of current stamina and magicka regeneration and 20% cost increases. Additionally, you gain 2/4 extra ultimate per damage and healing you deal, regardless of critical strike or not. Requires a Thu'um ultimate equipped.

The Duality of Akatosh: The power of Thu'um both strengthens and weakens you. You take 2/4% more damage, but you gain 1/2 Ultimate per point of damage that you take.

TL;DR: Magnets.

nerevarine1138

As well thought-out as the mechanics are, this completely misses the lore issues, namely that your character would have to be Dragonborn in order to learn a shout that fast. Unless you'd advocate a 5-year quest that requires the character to stay at High Hrothgar in deep meditation on each word of the Thu'um.

AriBoh

I don't think they are quite desperate enough to milk Skyrim yet. And if/when they do get to the point of nostalgia vampires I'd rather go back to the Shivering Isles.

diabeticDemon18

As much as I like this idea, I loved the Thu'um in skyrim... @nerevarine1138 is right, it's lore breaking. There aren't any dragonborn characters, unless you want to make the DK class, also be Dragonborn... which would make this a class specific ability line. Although, if when they added this area they also added Winterhold, so there would be the College of Winterhold for Sorcs, moved the Dark Brotherhood into Whiterun for NBs, and then the Temple of Kynareth had a quest line for the Paladins to learn better healing abilities. So, maybe this could work and be specific to the class you chose in the game?? I think that would be pretty cool, but then again Skyrim was my S**t!!

Pmarsico9

Ulfric and Arngier weren't dragonborn.

dodgehopper_ESO

After our use of the Amulet of Kings, I'm not so sure its as lore breaking as you think. In fact, our characters are behaving very much like Alessia did, if I understand lore correctly. That being said they did state in the past they didn't want us to be using Thu'um. Without dragon souls to devour though, I don't think we could learn the Thu'um any faster than the next Greybeard. I think that is perhaps the biggest difference between us and the Dragonborn of Skyrim fame.

nerevarine1138

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Ulfric and Arngier weren't dragonborn.

Right, but they also had to spend years studying the Thu'um (in Arngier's case, a lifetime). It was well established in Skyrim that it's insanely difficult for non-Dragonborn to learn a shout.

And I do have to say that I have no desire to make this game Skyrim online. The Thu'um was a mechanic specific to the Skyrim storyline. It doesn't really have a place here.

Pmarsico9

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Ulfric and Arngier weren't dragonborn.

Right, but they also had to spend years studying the Thu'um (in Arngier's case, a lifetime). It was well established in Skyrim that it's insanely difficult for non-Dragonborn to learn a shout.

And I do have to say that I have no desire to make this game Skyrim online. The Thu'um was a mechanic specific to the Skyrim storyline. It doesn't really have a place here.

If I recall correctly, Ulfric didn't study for it either. He was born with the ability, but was not Dragonborn.

Come to think of it, the inventors of Dragon Rend weren't ever directly called out as Dragon Born either.

Gilvoth

please do not put the "thuum" from skyrim into elderscrolls online.

thank you

nerevarine1138

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Ulfric and Arngier weren't dragonborn.

Right, but they also had to spend years studying the Thu'um (in Arngier's case, a lifetime). It was well established in Skyrim that it's insanely difficult for non-Dragonborn to learn a shout.

And I do have to say that I have no desire to make this game Skyrim online. The Thu'um was a mechanic specific to the Skyrim storyline. It doesn't really have a place here.

If I recall correctly, Ulfric didn't study for it either. He was born with the ability, but was not Dragonborn.

Come to think of it, the inventors of Dragon Rend weren't ever directly called out as Dragon Born either.

I'm not sure where you're getting that Ulfric information. I recall that he had to spend time with the Greybeards, but even if that wasn't explicitly stated, it is explicitly stated that no one but a Dragonborn can learn a word of power without years of meditation.

BBSooner

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

As well thought-out as the mechanics are, this completely misses the lore issues, namely that your character would have to be Dragonborn in order to learn a shout that fast. Unless you'd advocate a 5-year quest that requires the character to stay at High Hrothgar in deep meditation on each word of the Thu'um.

Absolutely agree. As awesome as Thu'ums are I don't think they should be available to our characters in the same way our characters should never achieve CHIM (drastic example, but gameplay wise best left out of the hands of the masses). I'm picturing armies of all races in Cyrodiil shouting at either and getting a "nope" face.

ZigoSid

I love Thu'um but please, NO !

JKorr

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Ulfric and Arngier weren't dragonborn.

Right, but they also had to spend years studying the Thu'um (in Arngier's case, a lifetime). It was well established in Skyrim that it's insanely difficult for non-Dragonborn to learn a shout.

And I do have to say that I have no desire to make this game Skyrim online. The Thu'um was a mechanic specific to the Skyrim storyline. It doesn't really have a place here.

If I recall correctly, Ulfric didn't study for it either. He was born with the ability, but was not Dragonborn.

Come to think of it, the inventors of Dragon Rend weren't ever directly called out as Dragon Born either.

Nope. He studied. He tells you himself.

Ulfric gained the ability to use The Voice by training with the Greybeards. When asked, he says "Any Nord can learn the Way of the Voice by studying with the Greybeards, given enough ambition and dedication."

.

Gormlaith, Felldir, and Hakon weren't dragonborn. When you have Kyne asking a dragon to teach the humans, there is a possibility that learning things could be accelerated, just a little. There isn't, afaik, any information on how long it took the humans to learn to Shout, or how long it took the humans to create the dragonrend Shout.

Pmarsico9

JKorr wrote: »

.

Gormlaith, Felldir, and Hakon weren't dragonborn. When you have Kyne asking a dragon to teach the humans, there is a possibility that learning things could be accelerated, just a little. There isn't, afaik, any information on how long it took the humans to learn to Shout, or how long it took the humans to create the dragonrend Shout.

So from that perspective, it wouldn't be this massive lore violation.

JKorr

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

.

Gormlaith, Felldir, and Hakon weren't dragonborn. When you have Kyne asking a dragon to teach the humans, there is a possibility that learning things could be accelerated, just a little. There isn't, afaik, any information on how long it took the humans to learn to Shout, or how long it took the humans to create the dragonrend Shout.

So from that perspective, it wouldn't be this massive lore violation.

Ulfric only has two Shouts, and I don't know whether he has all three words to those or not. I don't think there is any information about how long he studied to get those two learned.

If they ever open the Throat of the World to players, it should take an incredibly long time to study the Thu'um. I really woudn't want to see dozens/hundreds of players running around Shouting. Given the trolls that already try to cause problems, giving players Shouts would NOT be a good idea.

Laz

Simply and least offensive way possible... No. It wouldn't fit with the lore really. Sure it's a nice idea but you never had a great war fought with shouts. Let this game make it's own path and not try to follow previous years. Skyrim was great, let's leave it there. Oblivion was fun, let's leave it there. Morrowind was amazing, let's leave it there.

Leave the games where they belong, bring new life into this one and some new mechanics we've never seen that fit with what is going on. It would be fun sure, but it would also just become a hindrance.

Hell the game is still young though, never know...

GreyBrow

No. Just F**** No.

No one in this game is dragon born.

Rosveen

It's bad enough to see hundreds of vampires and daedric summoners running in broad daylight, I don't want everyone shouting too. Give it a rest. Why do people want to insert thu'um into every TES game from now on? Can't Skyrim have something unique?

Pmarsico9

JKorr wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

.

Gormlaith, Felldir, and Hakon weren't dragonborn. When you have Kyne asking a dragon to teach the humans, there is a possibility that learning things could be accelerated, just a little. There isn't, afaik, any information on how long it took the humans to learn to Shout, or how long it took the humans to create the dragonrend Shout.

So from that perspective, it wouldn't be this massive lore violation.

Ulfric only has two Shouts, and I don't know whether he has all three words to those or not. I don't think there is any information about how long he studied to get those two learned.

If they ever open the Throat of the World to players, it should take an incredibly long time to study the Thu'um. I really woudn't want to see dozens/hundreds of players running around Shouting. Given the trolls that already try to cause problems, giving players Shouts would NOT be a good idea.

My proposal is for a single shout.

starkerealm

JKorr wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

.

Gormlaith, Felldir, and Hakon weren't dragonborn. When you have Kyne asking a dragon to teach the humans, there is a possibility that learning things could be accelerated, just a little. There isn't, afaik, any information on how long it took the humans to learn to Shout, or how long it took the humans to create the dragonrend Shout.

So from that perspective, it wouldn't be this massive lore violation.

Ulfric only has two Shouts, and I don't know whether he has all three words to those or not. I don't think there is any information about how long he studied to get those two learned.

If they ever open the Throat of the World to players, it should take an incredibly long time to study the Thu'um. I really woudn't want to see dozens/hundreds of players running around Shouting. Given the trolls that already try to cause problems, giving players Shouts would NOT be a good idea.

He has at least two words of Unrelenting Force... I'm not sure if he has the third word either... what's the other shout? I haven't annoyed him enough in Skyrim to have his shouts down.

AlexDougherty

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Ulfric and Arngier weren't dragonborn.

Nords can learn Thu'ums, in fact apart from the Dragonborns and dragons they are the only ones who can.

Since this game has no Dragonborn or Dragons, it would mean the only people who can use them are Nords. One race out of ten. And even then they have to study for years to be able to use them.

In short, your idea is not practical, unless you butcher the Elder Scrolls Lore.

Welka

Skyrim was awesome but please no. However id love to see more skill lines

AlexDougherty

JKorr wrote: »

Gormlaith, Felldir, and Hakon weren't dragonborn. When you have Kyne asking a dragon to teach the humans, there is a possibility that learning things could be accelerated, just a little. There isn't, afaik, any information on how long it took the humans to learn to Shout, or how long it took the humans to create the dragonrend Shout.

They were however Nords, it's a keystone of the lore about Nords that they are the only Race who can use shouts (apart from Dragons). And in the Skyrim game everyone tells you it takes years of study to be able to use them.

starkerealm

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Ulfric and Arngier weren't dragonborn.

Nords can learn Thu'ums, in fact apart from the Dragonborns and dragons they are the only ones who can.

Since this game has no Dragonborn or Dragons, it would mean the only people who can use them are Nords. One race out of ten. And even then they have to study for years to be able to use them.

In short, your idea is not practical, unless you butcher the Elder Scrolls Lore.

There's certainly the possibility that there are a few Dragonborn scattered around the setting at this point, but not the player characters.

There's also a few Dragons active in the same timeframe as the game, so we could someday see them.

But it still brings us back to the point of needing to mutilate the lore in order to allow players to shout.

Rosveen

AlexDougherty wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Gormlaith, Felldir, and Hakon weren't dragonborn. When you have Kyne asking a dragon to teach the humans, there is a possibility that learning things could be accelerated, just a little. There isn't, afaik, any information on how long it took the humans to learn to Shout, or how long it took the humans to create the dragonrend Shout.

it's a keystone of the lore about Nords that they are the only Race who can use shouts (apart from Dragons).

Source?

starkerealm

Rosveen wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Gormlaith, Felldir, and Hakon weren't dragonborn. When you have Kyne asking a dragon to teach the humans, there is a possibility that learning things could be accelerated, just a little. There isn't, afaik, any information on how long it took the humans to learn to Shout, or how long it took the humans to create the dragonrend Shout.

it's a keystone of the lore about Nords that they are the only Race who can use shouts (apart from Dragons).

Source?

You have a source of a non-Nord, non-Dragonborn using shouts?

Rosveen

starkerealm wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Gormlaith, Felldir, and Hakon weren't dragonborn. When you have Kyne asking a dragon to teach the humans, there is a possibility that learning things could be accelerated, just a little. There isn't, afaik, any information on how long it took the humans to learn to Shout, or how long it took the humans to create the dragonrend Shout.

it's a keystone of the lore about Nords that they are the only Race who can use shouts (apart from Dragons).

Source?

You have a source of a non-Nord, non-Dragonborn using shouts?

Nope. Well, the Ebony Warrior, but he's clearly a special case, so he doesn't count. Still, "I haven't heard about it" isn't really a proof of anything, is it? So I'd like to see an explanation why thu'um can be learned only by Nords. I'm not saying it's false, I don't know, that's why I'm curious.

phreatophile

Down the road, they should implement racial ultimates. They have a long standing precedent in ES with each race and having an innate ability. Ancestor guardian for Dunmer is a good example. The Thuum for Nords could be pretty cool.

starkerealm

Rosveen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Gormlaith, Felldir, and Hakon weren't dragonborn. When you have Kyne asking a dragon to teach the humans, there is a possibility that learning things could be accelerated, just a little. There isn't, afaik, any information on how long it took the humans to learn to Shout, or how long it took the humans to create the dragonrend Shout.

it's a keystone of the lore about Nords that they are the only Race who can use shouts (apart from Dragons).

Source?

You have a source of a non-Nord, non-Dragonborn using shouts?

Nope. Well, the Ebony Warrior, but he's clearly a special case, so he doesn't count. Still, "I haven't heard about it" isn't really a proof of anything, is it? So I'd like to see an explanation why thu'um can be learned only by Nords. I'm not saying it's false, I don't know, that's why I'm curious.

I vaguely remember a throw away line from someone about how High Hrothgar is normally closed to non-Nords. Though, that could just be the power of suggestion.

Even if that's not true, there is the serious issue that the Greybeards are strictly non-interventionist, meaning that non-Dragonborn adventurers would be sent packing because they were "adventurers." They're more isolationist in the Fourth Era because of the Ulfric thing, but the entire, "not using it just for screwing around" is baked right into the history of their founding.

The other thing to remember is, for non-Dragonborn, they can't really turn it on and off at will. Which is why Arngeir is the only one that actually speaks to the player.

It could just be that Alex is referencing that the Greybeards don't seem to accept non-Nords. *shrugs*

AlexDougherty

Rosveen wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Gormlaith, Felldir, and Hakon weren't dragonborn. When you have Kyne asking a dragon to teach the humans, there is a possibility that learning things could be accelerated, just a little. There isn't, afaik, any information on how long it took the humans to learn to Shout, or how long it took the humans to create the dragonrend Shout.

it's a keystone of the lore about Nords that they are the only Race who can use shouts (apart from Dragons).

Source?

Thuum
Above is lore about Thu'ums, please note that the first paragraph from the end of the first line is actually taken from lore books about the Nords.

Nord
Please look to the part called The Thu'um and the Dragonborn, again it refers to Nords using Thu'ums, and it being a gift to them.

The overall inference is that Thu'ums are Nordic and belong to Nords only.

I hadn't heard about the Ebony Warrior, but if he's a Redguard and not Dragonborn, then clearly there is a precident for non-Nord Thu'um users. Oh well. But you still require years of study to use them.

Pmarsico9

Mannimarco's existence in this game could largely be considered a major lore violation simply due the fact that he dies both in Oblivion and ESO.

Granted you can take the point of view that he was dead already in Oblivion, but that's neither here nor there, really. There essentially haven't been a ton of lore violations, but this one would be pretty robust in its violation if its true considering he's the primary antagonist.