Am I the only one that is surprised NightBlades...

manny254

Am I the only one that is surprised that most of the community thinks of them as stamina builds? Obviously they do have some traits that lean them this way a bit, but in other TES games I always saw them as magic based. Sure they would have some stamina to sneak, but they relied on magic to save their hide. I am tired of people using nightblade and archer interchangeably. They are not inherently the same.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Nightblade_(Oblivion)

PBpsy

No you aren't. For me they will always be mages.

nerevarine1138

I always played a Nightblade for my main character in prior Elder Scrolls games. They tended to be hybrid characters.

Shunravi

For me a Nightblade is a mage and will always be a mage. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes

Guppet

Well in the character creation screen, they are shown with medium armour and dual wield, so that reinforces the arch type of a rogue rather than warlock. Also many people love to play rogues and NB is by far the closest to this, due to having benefits from stealth.

jelliedsoup

All the classes are magicka based. There are no fighters, warriors, rangers, thieves etc in his game. Well there are but they're [snip].

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Aeratus

It doesn't surprise me actually.

First of all, the class names in traditional elder scrolls lore were not self-explanatory in the first place. For example, the Sorcerer in Elder Scrolls lore is supposed to be a heavy armor spellcaster (whereas "Battlemage" is a spellcaster that use steel for offense rather than defense). But you would never know from just the name "Sorcerer" that the class is associated with heavy armor.

Similarly, the name "Nightblade" does not suggest itself to be a mage. The term "Night" means rogue, and "Blade" also means rogue, lol. Therefore, if you were not familiar with the traditional elder scrolls classes, you would not know that Nightblade is a mage.

The NB and sorc classes in ESO follow their Oblivion class descriptions very closely. That is, NB is a mage, and Sorc is a caster that has access to high amounts of armor (using bound armor).

Furthermore, the character design screen does not represent what the classes actually are in the game. The character design screen basically dumbs down the classes into MMO stereotypes (mage, cleric, warrior, rogue), thereby corrupting the impression that people have of the Nightblade class.

One more thing, not all parts of the community associates NB with stamina. The trials community are used to seeing NB as mages.

GnatB

*shrug* "nightblades" have always been a mage class to me, that said, the whole idea of a "stamina build" is a relatively new ES concept. Previous games have pretty much just been light/heavy equivalent & magic. The whole weapon skill thing is pretty much new to ESO. Which could be part of why they seem thrown in at the last minute/unbalanced in ESO. They probably were.

Now sure, some ES classes would pretty much just use light/heavy attacks.



Realistically, all the ESO classes are mages. This really is "elder skirts online". (or elder staffs online?) If you want to create one of the "physical" centric classes from previous ES games, you basically just ignore your class skills and go pretty much weapon only. (heck, if you really wanted to get to basics, you'd pretty much ignore weapon skills too...)

Which is why I tend to think of ESO classes as more spell disciplines, than as actual classes. If you want to make your character more like one of the "physical" based ES classes, it largely doesn't matter what spell discipline you happen to choose for the class.

khele23eb17_ESO

manny254 wrote: »

Am I the only one that is surprised that most of the community thinks of them as stamina builds? Obviously they do have some traits that lean them this way a bit, but in other TES games I always saw them as magic based. Sure they would have some stamina to sneak, but they relied on magic to save their hide. I am tired of people using nightblade and archer interchangeably. They are not inherently the same.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Nightblade_(Oblivion)

I am tired of people thinking ESO classes are direct counterparts of Oblivion or Morrowind classes. Half the ESO classes dont even have namesakes in previous games. What we have in ESO are wider archetypes, each containing multiple classes from earlier titles.

Aeratus

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Am I the only one that is surprised that most of the community thinks of them as stamina builds? Obviously they do have some traits that lean them this way a bit, but in other TES games I always saw them as magic based. Sure they would have some stamina to sneak, but they relied on magic to save their hide. I am tired of people using nightblade and archer interchangeably. They are not inherently the same.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Nightblade_(Oblivion)

I am tired of people thinking ESO classes are direct counterparts of Oblivion or Morrowind classes. Half the ESO classes dont even have namesakes in previous games. What we have in ESO are wider archetypes, each containing multiple classes from earlier titles.

There are two new classes, for sure. But the Nightblade in ESO is very closely based on the Nightblade in Oblivion.

I'll just recycle a post I made in another thread:

Nightblade Class description in TES: Oblivion:
"Spell and shadow are their friends. By darkness they move with haste, casting magic to benefit their circumstances."

- "Spell and shadow" - NB's shadow tree
- "by darkness they move with haste" - path of darkness spell. Path of darkness fits perfectly because it casts a dark shadow on the ground, and the nightblade moves through it.
- "casting magic to benefit their circumstances" - all class skills are spells

Nightblade Specialization in TES: Oblivion:
"Specialization: Magic"

All class "skills" are spells, regardless of class.

Nightblade Attributes in TES Oblivion:
"Speed, Willpower"

- Speed - Concealed weapon passive, and path of darkness.
- Willpower (governs the size of magicka pool in TES Oblivion) - Magicka flood passive that "Increases Max Magicka 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted."

Nightblade Skills in TES Oblivion:
Acrobatics
Alteration
Athletics
Blade
Destruction
Light Armor
Restoration

- Acrobatics/Athletics - Path of darkness, passive that increases stamina regen
- Blade - Veiled strike, Impale, Teleport Strike, Assassination tree ultimate
- Destruction - Strife, Crippling Grasp
- Restoration - Strife (Funnel Health), sap essence

Next, the image of Nightblade carrying a potion

The ESO correspondence is the catalyst class passive for increasing the effectiveness of potions.

Xeres14

Well I wasn't big on the previous Elder Scrolls games so when I saw a nightblade, I thought rogue or thief or assassin. He works pretty well in that role though.

Shunravi

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Am I the only one that is surprised that most of the community thinks of them as stamina builds? Obviously they do have some traits that lean them this way a bit, but in other TES games I always saw them as magic based. Sure they would have some stamina to sneak, but they relied on magic to save their hide. I am tired of people using nightblade and archer interchangeably. They are not inherently the same.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Nightblade_(Oblivion)

I am tired of people thinking ESO classes are direct counterparts of Oblivion or Morrowind classes. Half the ESO classes dont even have namesakes in previous games. What we have in ESO are wider archetypes, each containing multiple classes from earlier titles.

Quite so, and it's also part of why why I absolutely despise classes in this game.

As @GnatB‌ said,

If you want to make your character more like one of the "physical" based ES classes, it largely doesn't matter what spell discipline you happen to choose for the class.

Essentially not using the class itself (except for passives)

They used the class system as a springboard for other 'TES classes,' but they failed in the implementaiton of certain aspects. It's much harder to hybridize in ESO than in the TES games. Hence people's challenges with playing the stamina based rogue.

That's why I will always say 'My Nightblade is fine, your assassin has issues.'

Artis

ARE YOU PLAYING OBLIVION OR THE ELDER SCROLLS ONLINE?????
Here is your description of Nightblades in the game we are playing.
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Nightblade_(Online)
From the same web-site that you used.

Nightblades are adventurers and opportunists with a gift for getting in and out of trouble. Relying variously on stealth, blades, and speed, Nightblades thrive on conflict and misfortune, trusting to their luck and cunning to survive.

They are obviously expected to have synergy with stamina build because they rely on blades, stealth, speed. Also, when we create a character and choose a class, we can look at that class in Novice and Veteran armor. Guess, which class is the only class shown in MEDIUM armor?

ontheleftcoast

I played two Nightblade toons to VR12, one magicka based the other stamina based. While the magicka based was easier to play I eventually had to make a choice. Since I refused to go "stick and skirt" I converted her into a tank with Siphon and enough stamina enchants to shield bash a mammoth into submission.

The second one I played hard core stamina the whole way. I can leap into a battle, drop down a siphon and then let loose with an almost endless barrage of dual wield whirlwind attacks. Very effective in PvE all the way thru the completion of Cadwell's Gold.

In the end I'll admit, magicka is easier but not the sum total of what a Nightblade can be. You sell both yourself and the class short if you think magic is the only option.

Guppet

When you get to change the resource a skill uses, then the NB will be much better. Wonder where all the talk of your class abilities are spells will go, when they scale of stamina if you choose. The pools are just badly named, they should be weapon pool and class skills pool, none of this magica or stamina. Just because it currently scales with magica, does not make it a spell, that's just association, due to using magica. Concealed weapon is very definately just a weapon attack, no spell at all.

Vizier

manny254 wrote: »

Am I the only one that is surprised that most of the community thinks of them as stamina builds? Obviously they do have some traits that lean them this way a bit, but in other TES games I always saw them as magic based. Sure they would have some stamina to sneak, but they relied on magic to save their hide. I am tired of people using nightblade and archer interchangeably. They are not inherently the same.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Nightblade_(Oblivion)

No your not. It's been pointed out many times. Typically in response to those touting that a NB 'should' be classic rogue...blah blah.


The problem with your position and believe me I'm with you on this in understanding what a NB is, but the problem with your position is that in ESO each of the four classes have basically absorbed other TES classes and their characteristics so none of them are truly what they were traditionally in TES. Once the several classes were mashed into one they still have to be named something and I believe they were named after what they were primarily modeled after.

As an MMO ZOS should have given more latitude for some of the other traditional TES character types and as long as there are only four classes we should cut those that want to play stamina builds some slack and support the increase of options of viable play styles and builds in ESO.

jelliedsoup

Stam builds are allowed, but far from optimal.

I must admit I'm amazed at the limited ability to grasp anything beyond magicka builds of some people on here. But to be fair, Zos themselves have struggled, so why expect otherwise?

EQBallzz

You can't really compare the classes of ESO with previous ES games. Oblivion may have had a "class" by the name of Nightblade but that doesn't mean it correlates to ESO acurately.

Oblivion also had an archer, thief, assassin and rogue listed as "classes" that gave a much wider selection of the type of characters people are generally associating with the ESO Nightblade but are not present in ESO. What "class" would you associate a stamina based archer/rogue/assassin type with if not the Nightblade?

I know that any class can wield a bow and become a generic archer but you could do that in Oblivion as well. I think it's obvious why someone who wants a stamina based archer/rogue type character would gravitate towards the Nightblade at the character select (whether or not that ends up being the best choice in practical terms is debatable).

Ysne58

I've always played my NBs a hybrids.

jelliedsoup

I think people are just attempting to justify the game's magicka focus by proposing that nightblades were always casters.

To be fair, I was always a custom 'class' in previous ES games. Shame that it's not encouraged in ESO.

eNumbra

When Elder scrolls still had classes, I typically played an assassin, which only had illusion as a magical skill, and rarely used anything other than Chameleon and Night-eye spells.

jelliedsoup

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

I played two Nightblade toons to VR12, one magicka based the other stamina based. While the magicka based was easier to play I eventually had to make a choice. Since I refused to go "stick and skirt" I converted her into a tank with Siphon and enough stamina enchants to shield bash a mammoth into submission.

The second one I played hard core stamina the whole way. I can leap into a battle, drop down a siphon and then let loose with an almost endless barrage of dual wield whirlwind attacks. Very effective in PvE all the way thru the completion of Cadwell's Gold.

In the end I'll admit, magicka is easier but not the sum total of what a Nightblade can be. You sell both yourself and the class short if you think magic is the only option.

Using stam skills has nothing to do with being an NB. My character was a stam build, who happened to be an NB.

EQBallzz

I might also add the fact that stamina based "archer" or even "assassin" type builds in both Oblivion and Skyrim were insanely OP (maybe not at the start but got very powerful fairly quick with some skill points spent and gear). My archer in Skyrim was so easy I rolled a Battlemage instead just because it got somewhat boring decimating everything in my path. That has hardly been the case for stamina based archers in ESO.

PBpsy

I think we can all agree that the character creation select screen is really really bad, to minimalist, stupid,misleading and somewhat contrary to the intended game design.
One of the selling points of this game was any class any role which this game actually achieves to a certain degree.It actually fails only at the healer role for all classes part and even then only for trials.. The character creation interface didn't quite give that.

It would have been much more awesome to have scene with each class performing some different skills form different trees. Also the description should have to describe some way in which each class can fill each role and to what extent.


On the other hand it is quite funny that some people chose their character only due to description. I knew pretty well what the class skills would be like before even playing and test played each class for a bit before choosing a main.

Aeratus

EQBallzz wrote: »

I might also add the fact that stamina based "archer" or even "assassin" type builds in both Oblivion and Skyrim were insanely OP (maybe not at the start but got very powerful fairly quick with some skill points spent and gear). My archer in Skyrim was so easy I rolled a Battlemage instead just because it got somewhat boring decimating everything in my path. That has hardly been the case for stamina based archers in ESO.

Yeah stamina characters were OP in Skyrim. I got my bow to over 1k in damage (using the alchemy/enchant loop). In contrast, destro spells were ridiculously weak, and didn't even do 1/6 of the damage output of my bow.

Shunravi

PBpsy wrote: »

I think we can all agree that the character creation select screen is really really bad, to minimalist, stupid,misleading and somewhat contrary to the intended game design.
One of the selling points of this game was any class any role which this game actually achieves to a certain degree.It actually fails only at the healer role for all classes part and even then only for trials.. The character creation interface didn't quite give that.

It would have been much more awesome to have scene with each class performing some different skills form different trees. Also the description should have to describe some way in which each class can fill each role and to what extent.


On the other hand it is quite funny that some people chose their character only due to description. I knew pretty well what the class skills would be like before even playing and test played each class for a bit before choosing a main.

Yea. A bit more info at start-up would be great. Not everyone does their research.

I wish they had designed things differently. I can only hope they make better decisions for the future.

EQBallzz

Aeratus wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

I might also add the fact that stamina based "archer" or even "assassin" type builds in both Oblivion and Skyrim were insanely OP (maybe not at the start but got very powerful fairly quick with some skill points spent and gear). My archer in Skyrim was so easy I rolled a Battlemage instead just because it got somewhat boring decimating everything in my path. That has hardly been the case for stamina based archers in ESO.

Yeah stamina characters were OP in Skyrim. I got my bow to over 1k in damage (using the alchemy/enchant loop). In contrast, destro spells were ridiculously weak, and didn't even do 1/6 of the damage output of my bow.

I didn't even use the alchemy/enchant loop because it wasn't necessary. I did use alchemy/enchant to maximize my power but I didn't loop it over and over like was possible because it just wasn't required and was sort of boring to do. In any event, the comparison between Skyrim/Oblivion and ESO is just not very valid. ESO draws from those games but it's a separate game due to being an MMO.

danno8

manny254 wrote: »

Am I the only one that is surprised that most of the community thinks of them as stamina builds? Obviously they do have some traits that lean them this way a bit, but in other TES games I always saw them as magic based. Sure they would have some stamina to sneak, but they relied on magic to save their hide. I am tired of people using nightblade and archer interchangeably. They are not inherently the same.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Nightblade_(Oblivion)

Magicka based? Sure.

Staves/light armour? I am surprised at that, yes.

jelliedsoup

PBpsy wrote: »

I think we can all agree that the character creation select screen is really really bad, to minimalist, stupid,misleading and somewhat contrary to the intended game design.
One of the selling points of this game was any class any role which this game actually achieves to a certain degree.It actually fails only at the healer role for all classes part and even then only for trials.. The character creation interface didn't quite give that.

It would have been much more awesome to have scene with each class performing some different skills form different trees. Also the description should have to describe some way in which each class can fill each role and to what extent.

Aeratus wrote: »

EQBallzz wrote: »

I might also add the fact that stamina based "archer" or even "assassin" type builds in both Oblivion and Skyrim were insanely OP (maybe not at the start but got very powerful fairly quick with some skill points spent and gear). My archer in Skyrim was so easy I rolled a Battlemage instead just because it got somewhat boring decimating everything in my path. That has hardly been the case for stamina based archers in ESO.

Yeah stamina characters were OP in Skyrim. I got my bow to over 1k in damage (using the alchemy/enchant loop). In contrast, destro spells were ridiculously weak, and didn't even do 1/6 of the damage output of my bow.

I get it, so ESO is penance for archers being op in skyrim. It's beginning to make sense now.

kijima

Seriously though archers are OP now, I still get tell's from the people that get 1 shot by me, (it's not one shot, it's three hitting all at the same time which, yes, I know is getting nerfed with 1.5) and with good reason.

Tell's are rarer now though since it's becoming more common to get torn down by a bow user.

I've not had or seen any other player style that has been able to kill a PvP'er in one second apart from bowmen, the snipe stack with 3 other attacks from stealth is OP as hell, and my build is built around it.

I'm not whinging as a victim, I'm a user and saying it's cheesey and OP. I still like it though

david271749

Artemis wrote: »

ARE YOU PLAYING OBLIVION OR THE ELDER SCROLLS ONLINE?????
Here is your description of Nightblades in the game we are playing.
http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Nightblade_(Online)
From the same web-site that you used.

Nightblades are adventurers and opportunists with a gift for getting in and out of trouble. Relying variously on stealth, blades, and speed, Nightblades thrive on conflict and misfortune, trusting to their luck and cunning to survive.

They are obviously expected to have synergy with stamina build because they rely on blades, stealth, speed. Also, when we create a character and choose a class, we can look at that class in Novice and Veteran armor. Guess, which class is the only class shown in MEDIUM armor?

This guy gets it. I see a lot of people arguing that this is in line with previous games, but I've noticed most of these people have also argued that eso is an individual title and shouldn't be restricted to the mechanics of previous games.