Dungeons- ESO/ZOS's Biggest Missed Opportunity
Vizier
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What happened to Dungeon Diving? One of the greatest aspects of being an "explorer" in TES games was finding dungeons. In past games when I found a dungeon or cave or ruin there was a sense of excitement. It was an unknown. What was down there? How big was it? Could there be good loot? And before TES went with scaling levels there was the thrill of entering a place that may be too powerful for my character. I'd sneak in, take a look and come back later when i was more powerful.
ZOS completely missed the boat on dungeons and delves. How could they think it was OK to make virtually every delve the same? Go in, hang a right, loop around, grab skyshard on the way, kill the boss by the door, exit. One big loop, every time. To add insult to injury not only is there no adventure in dungeon diving, there's no loot to write home about. Bosses carry a whopping 20gp.
It's sad to say that dungeons/delves are nothing more than a place I need to go to get the achievement and the skyshard. No adventure in it. No sense of achievement or discovery.
Should ZOS redesign there dungeon system? Would the community help them if they let us? I would. Would you? Imagine the possible variety of places that could be in just that one feature of the game that currently is basically all the same.
Edited by Vizier on October 12, 2014 7:52PM ZOS completely missed the boat on dungeons and delves. How could they think it was OK to make virtually every delve the same? Go in, hang a right, loop around, grab skyshard on the way, kill the boss by the door, exit. One big loop, every time. To add insult to injury not only is there no adventure in dungeon diving, there's no loot to write home about. Bosses carry a whopping 20gp.
It's sad to say that dungeons/delves are nothing more than a place I need to go to get the achievement and the skyshard. No adventure in it. No sense of achievement or discovery.
Should ZOS redesign there dungeon system? Would the community help them if they let us? I would. Would you? Imagine the possible variety of places that could be in just that one feature of the game that currently is basically all the same.
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lordspyder✭✭✭✭✭Yay! I'm gonna yell about stuff already addressed in the live stream!!!!!! RAWR LOUD NOISES!!!!!!
/sigh7 -
Vizier✭✭✭✭✭
✭lordspyder wrote: »Yay! I'm gonna yell about stuff already addressed in the live stream!!!!!! RAWR LOUD NOISES!!!!!!
/sigh
You seem to be the only one yelling here. Did you actually have something to add other then a tantrum? Take a break. Have some food or coffee n sugar. Then come back and try again.3 -
emeraldbay✭✭✭✭✭They've already overhauled quite a few of the delves found throughout the game, and they've stated they're working on remaking even more. This is not something that can be done in just a few minutes, they're really taking their time, and having gone through some of the redesigned ones, I'm very happy with the work they're doing.-T h e - A l d m e r i - I n i t i a t i v e-— O r d e r - o f - t h e - R a v y n —2 -
ItsMeToo✭✭✭✭✭Check out update 1.4.5 coming on the PTS tomorrow. Also go watch Friday's, 10Oct2014, Live Twitch ESO Stream.Edited by ItsMeToo on October 12, 2014 10:51PMFYI - There is no such thing as 'night capping' in a world wide MMO.FYI - There was no paid Beta. When they launched the game the Beta was over, even if you don't think it was.FYI - It's B2P not F2P. There is a difference.FYI - It doesn't take any player skill to mash keys or buttons in this game. The ones that stay alive longer have the better internet connection and speed.FYI - The game is not broken, it still works. It just has 'bugs' that need to be fixed.Balance is a "Bad" thing.
Example: There were hundreds of Jedi and only two Sith in Star Wars. The Jedi wanted, "Balance in the Force" and they got it. Now there are only two Jedi and two Sith.
Balance is a "Bad" thing.Is the glass half full or half empty?
I say, "Get a smaller glass."0 -
Maotti✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also. Why is that loot timer there still?
So annoying and unrewarding when you do a groupbossrun for example. Especially in a pay2play game.Edited by Maotti on October 13, 2014 2:44AMPC EU0 -
Vizier✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dungeons, Caves, Ruins, Delves...All should be unique. The circuitous layout is cheesy, lazy and unimaginative. If this is on their "things to fix" list that would be a good thing.
Something they could fix relatively quickly though would be some better loot tables for the bosses and even some nice placed items or a good chance of placed specific loot. Give folks a reason to actually explore other than moldy books and a skyshard. Just sayin.1 -
lordspyder✭✭✭✭✭Dungeons, Caves, Ruins, Delves...All should be unique. The circuitous layout is cheesy, lazy and unimaginative. If this is on their "things to fix" list that would be a good thing.
Something they could fix relatively quickly though would be some better loot tables for the bosses and even some nice placed items or a good chance of placed specific loot. Give folks a reason to actually explore other than moldy books and a skyshard. Just sayin.
As I said it's in the live stream. It's more than on their "Things to fix." Some have already been done, a bunch more will come with package 5 and the rest will follow.
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Srugzal✭✭✭✭✭emeraldbay wrote: »They've already overhauled quite a few of the delves found throughout the game, and they've stated they're working on remaking even more. This is not something that can be done in just a few minutes, they're really taking their time, and having gone through some of the redesigned ones, I'm very happy with the work they're doing.
This is all well and good. I've run through some of the "new" versions of the delves (like in Coldharbour), and I'm not impressed. Extra loops, some added pathing complexity (you can actually get lost in some of them now), but these kinds of changes simply make the delve take longer. They don't really add much.
Oh yes, this will be nice[er] for new players, but for the rest of us, it's already too late.2 -
jeevin✭✭✭✭✭Dungeons are on the fix list but the fact remains it's too little too late. The players who have left have played through the level gated theme park, including those shoddy place holder dungeons. The game shouldn't have been released until things like dungeons are finished and worth exploring.
Another 12 months development time would have made all the difference with this game.4 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What happened to Dungeon Diving? One of the greatest aspects of being an "explorer" in TES games was finding dungeons. In past games when I found a dungeon or cave or ruin there was a sense of excitement. It was an unknown. What was down there? How big was it? Could there be good loot? And before TES went with scaling levels there was the thrill of entering a place that may be too powerful for my character. I'd sneak in, take a look and come back later when i was more powerful.
ZOS completely missed the boat on dungeons and delves. How could they think it was OK to make virtually every delve the same? Go in, hang a right, loop around, grab skyshard on the way, kill the boss by the door, exit. One big loop, every time. To add insult to injury not only is there no adventure in dungeon diving, there's no loot to write home about. Bosses carry a whopping 20gp.
It's sad to say that dungeons/delves are nothing more than a place I need to go to get the achievement and the skyshard. No adventure in it. No sense of achievement or discovery.
Should ZOS redesign there dungeon system? Would the community help them if they let us? I would. Would you? Imagine the possible variety of places that could be in just that one feature of the game that currently is basically all the same.
Overuse of the standard template is a little ridiculous. I realize that certain ones would have similarity to others and that it makes for efficient, quick design, but OP is right, it becomes predictable.
Bringing back fog of war would help. Not having the this-level-zone all the time would help.lordspyder wrote: »Dungeons, Caves, Ruins, Delves...All should be unique. The circuitous layout is cheesy, lazy and unimaginative. If this is on their "things to fix" list that would be a good thing.
Something they could fix relatively quickly though would be some better loot tables for the bosses and even some nice placed items or a good chance of placed specific loot. Give folks a reason to actually explore other than moldy books and a skyshard. Just sayin.
As I said it's in the live stream. It's more than on their "Things to fix." Some have already been done, a bunch more will come with package 5 and the rest will follow.
They indicate intention to make dungeons and delves bigger with replay value. Adding more loops, moving the skyshard, and rearranging the mobs does not a new dungeon make.
When's the last time you came across a locked door other than at the end? Secret passages? Getting locked in?
When's the last time you actually had to disarm a trap?
Oblivion had swinging spikes, darts that shoot from the wall, gas vents... Throw the occasional standing water in there - it's a dungeon - it never floods?, lava to jump across on one end, frost on the other. What ever happened to cave ins?
There is this beautiful physics engine built in and video cards that were created just for that kind of thing.
Seems a shame not to use it.
Add some actual weather/environmental effects. Fog, rain (condensation), steam (it exists in more than just Dwemer ruins)...
Dev's, make the dungeons modular... take a hundred pieces you can fit together like a kid with a train set... Quick set up, reusability, and dungeons that are similar, yet different.
Will take time initially, but the payoff will be huge.
In the meantime, OP, sometimes, just to add a little variety...my friend and I enter the dungeons...
...we go clockwise!Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS4 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'd sneak in, take a look and come back later when i was more powerful.
ZOS completely missed the boat on dungeons and delves. How could they think it was OK to make virtually every delve the same? Go in, hang a right, loop around, grab skyshard on the way, kill the boss by the door, exit. One big loop, every time. To add insult to injury not only is there no adventure in dungeon diving, there's no loot to write home about. Bosses carry a whopping 20gp.
Imagine the scenario if dungeons or content in ESO would work as you suggest. The forum would be full of complaints "this is too hard, nerf!". We had this with VR where such a system was in place.
Some things were too hard to solo at VR1 but players could come back at VR 10, yet players refused to do this so they cried for nerfs.
The same thing would happen with your system, people in MMOs don't accept brick walls, they don't accept that someone / something is stronger that's why the Devs in MMOs have to water down content and remove variety.
Its not that ZO doesn't wanted, they gave us a good system with VR - its that the community is unable to cope with that.
Just look at it, we do have quest markers, symbols on the map - nothing is hidden in this game its so sad but this is how people in MMOs want to play. Not all yes but the vocal minority which counts does.1 -
Vizier✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'd sneak in, take a look and come back later when i was more powerful.
ZOS completely missed the boat on dungeons and delves. How could they think it was OK to make virtually every delve the same? Go in, hang a right, loop around, grab skyshard on the way, kill the boss by the door, exit. One big loop, every time. To add insult to injury not only is there no adventure in dungeon diving, there's no loot to write home about. Bosses carry a whopping 20gp.
Imagine the scenario if dungeons or content in ESO would work as you suggest. The forum would be full of complaints "this is too hard, nerf!". We had this with VR where such a system was in place.
Some things were too hard to solo at VR1 but players could come back at VR 10, yet players refused to do this so they cried for nerfs.
The same thing would happen with your system, people in MMOs don't accept brick walls, they don't accept that someone / something is stronger that's why the Devs in MMOs have to water down content and remove variety.
Its not that ZO doesn't wanted, they gave us a good system with VR - its that the community is unable to cope with that.
Just look at it, we do have quest markers, symbols on the map - nothing is hidden in this game its so sad but this is how people in MMOs want to play. Not all yes but the vocal minority which counts does.
I can imagine it. The payoff would be glorious and I dare say, the din of those shouting in joy would drown out the squeak from those you say would be crying. Your telling me people actually like that every dungeon is basically the same exact thing? ...shut the hell up.
(tonge n cheek) 
Edited by Vizier on October 13, 2014 6:04PM2 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'd sneak in, take a look and come back later when i was more powerful.
ZOS completely missed the boat on dungeons and delves. How could they think it was OK to make virtually every delve the same? Go in, hang a right, loop around, grab skyshard on the way, kill the boss by the door, exit. One big loop, every time. To add insult to injury not only is there no adventure in dungeon diving, there's no loot to write home about. Bosses carry a whopping 20gp.
Imagine the scenario if dungeons or content in ESO would work as you suggest. The forum would be full of complaints "this is too hard, nerf!". We had this with VR where such a system was in place.
Some things were too hard to solo at VR1 but players could come back at VR 10, yet players refused to do this so they cried for nerfs.
The same thing would happen with your system, people in MMOs don't accept brick walls, they don't accept that someone / something is stronger that's why the Devs in MMOs have to water down content and remove variety.
Its not that ZO doesn't wanted, they gave us a good system with VR - its that the community is unable to cope with that.
Just look at it, we do have quest markers, symbols on the map - nothing is hidden in this game its so sad but this is how people in MMOs want to play. Not all yes but the vocal minority which counts does.
I can imagine it. The payoff would be glorious and I dare say, the din of those shouting in joy would drown out the squeak from those you say would be crying. Your telling me people actually like that every dungeon is basically the same exact thing? ...shut the hell up.
No one likes the exact same thing, but that isn't what delves (after redesign) are.
However, plenty of Elder Scrolls players preferred Skyrim's dungeon design to Oblivion's. The full-circle design is much closer to Skyrim.Edited by nerevarine1138 on October 13, 2014 6:11PM----
Murray?1 -
LonePirate✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭OP, what you consider to be dungeons are actually present in the game. The public group dungeons and the Undaunted dungeons are the ones that meet your description/definition.
The delves in this game are not dungeons in the classic sense. They are more like caves with an easy exit system. The delves in Cyrodiil might be more your speed as they are usually unique in design and do not loop for the most part.
I never had a problem with the "old" delves as you could go in one and clear it within 10-20 minutes. I wish the dev time spent on the expansion project had been devoted to brand new delves instead. Regardless of my feelings, I hope people enjoy the expanded delves.Edited by LonePirate on October 13, 2014 6:21PM1 -
Sotha_Sil✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well guys, delves are being improved : bangkorai, riften, repear's march were already and others will come as Zone lead explained last ESO LIVE. So fixed.Edited by Sotha_Sil on October 13, 2014 6:18PMRestoration is a perfectly valid school of magic, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise! - Spells and incantations for those with the talent to cast them!1 -
Vizier✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lone Pirate- It may be my use of terms is not exact for the context most refer to when speaking of dungeons, caves, ruins, etc. I'm really more or less lumping them all together and if the "looped" caves are "delves" I'll ensure I refer to them properly moving forward.
My original post is a lament at the lost sense of exploration and mystery that was a signature or rather hallmark feature of past TES games. In Morrowind the map had fog of war, there was no compass and quests were not referenced on the map initially. All creatures and NPCs had their own levels and were not restricted to "zones" nor did they level with the player. This meant you never knew what you were getting into when you found a place. It behooved a player to tread lightly, sneak and scout a place to see if there were Deadra or vampires which were extremely powerful AND if you were able to find a chest you might just find something you'd keep for the entire game or nearly so. The sense of accomplishment was amazing. I remember the feeling I had when I found a signpost pointing the way to a place I was looking for. It was time for a celebration.
I will tell you, the frustration at searching for a place or a person was unprecedented in many ways and I can understand why some other mechanisms have been adopted over the years, but rather than use restraint things have degenerated to such a degree of hand holding you don't even need to pay attention to your map or even where you are. Just follow the arrow on the compass. Then once you get there you don't need to pay attention at all. Just go inside, follow the one path around in the loops and exit. It is so effing pathetic it makes one wonder why they even put them in the game other than a time sink.
Some here are claiming things will be and or are fixed? We'll see. There are so many things about this game I love, but this thing they've done with "delves." Bah. It's just terrible. The whole delve system IMO should be scrapped and redone from the ground up, each offering a unique place with the real possibility of finding something of real value.
If they are merely adding a few twists and turns to the circle and some mobs it will certainly be an improvement of the current system but in the end nothing to excite. Nothing worth noting.
We'll see. I'm crossing my fingers. And yes. The delves in Cyrodiil I find a bit more fun. Thanks for that advice.0 -
AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't know if you've been in any of the new delves yet? They've redone Coldharbour as well as the Zone 5 ones (The Rift, Bangkorai and Reaper's March (...).
My alt is running the Rift and yesterday I was in a dungeon that is also a quest dungeon and I got lost as it was a double loop that went down two floors. It was lots of fun.
Though I don't know why you don't remember that in Skyrim they instituted a "shortcut out" in all their dungeons. You were in level 3 and there would be a door that you could only access one way and it would take you straight out again.
I found that a very noticeable change from what Oblivion was like.
Someone else was suggesting adding extra bosses to delves like they have in Cyrodiil (anywhere from 1 to 5 bosses, I think). The delves in Cyrodiil are some of my favourites in the game.The Moot Councillor0 -
Vizier✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't know if you've been in any of the new delves yet? They've redone Coldharbour as well as the Zone 5 ones (The Rift, Bangkorai and Reaper's March (...).
My alt is running the Rift and yesterday I was in a dungeon that is also a quest dungeon and I got lost as it was a double loop that went down two floors. It was lots of fun.
Though I don't know why you don't remember that in Skyrim they instituted a "shortcut out" in all their dungeons. You were in level 3 and there would be a door that you could only access one way and it would take you straight out again.
I found that a very noticeable change from what Oblivion was like.
Someone else was suggesting adding extra bosses to delves like they have in Cyrodiil (anywhere from 1 to 5 bosses, I think). The delves in Cyrodiil are some of my favourites in the game.
Thanks for the feedback. And yes, I remember. I remember the shortcut doors being added in many of the Oblivion dungeons. As I mentioned above, the hand holding aspect of the game has been on the rise since after Morrowind, but I was making a different point at the time. It was, IMO, a terrible direction to go. They had already implemented fast travel, removed Mark and Recall which is what I used for my 'shortcut' previously.
I'll take a closer look at Bankorai delves. I honestly didn't notice any differences the last couple weeks as I've leveled another toon thorugh DC content. It's also almost finished with Coldharbour. I'll Dive down a couple delves to see the new content.
Once again, thanks for taking the time to respond.0 -
Emperor✭✭✭✭The dungeons get much better once you get to Craglorn. They are unique and very fun to explore. The only problem is that most people don't do them because they force grouping on people.If you like small group PvP (2-4 players) and solo PvP check out my video
https://youtube.com/watch?v=jechGImtFio
SPOILER: The first 40 seconds of the video contains a scene from the final Molag Bal boss fight!
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lordspyder✭✭✭✭✭I don't know if you've been in any of the new delves yet? They've redone Coldharbour as well as the Zone 5 ones (The Rift, Bangkorai and Reaper's March (...).
My alt is running the Rift and yesterday I was in a dungeon that is also a quest dungeon and I got lost as it was a double loop that went down two floors. It was lots of fun.
Though I don't know why you don't remember that in Skyrim they instituted a "shortcut out" in all their dungeons. You were in level 3 and there would be a door that you could only access one way and it would take you straight out again.
I found that a very noticeable change from what Oblivion was like.
Someone else was suggesting adding extra bosses to delves like they have in Cyrodiil (anywhere from 1 to 5 bosses, I think). The delves in Cyrodiil are some of my favourites in the game.
Thanks for the feedback. And yes, I remember. I remember the shortcut doors being added in many of the Oblivion dungeons. As I mentioned above, the hand holding aspect of the game has been on the rise since after Morrowind, but I was making a different point at the time. It was, IMO, a terrible direction to go. They had already implemented fast travel, removed Mark and Recall which is what I used for my 'shortcut' previously.
I'll take a closer look at Bankorai delves. I honestly didn't notice any differences the last couple weeks as I've leveled another toon thorugh DC content. It's also almost finished with Coldharbour. I'll Dive down a couple delves to see the new content.
Once again, thanks for taking the time to respond.
I miss mark and recall spells. I would use that in conjunction with one of the interventions to bypass the inventory weight limits in Morrowind. As soon as my inventory was full in a dungeon, I would mark my spot, and use an intervention. Drop all my loot at the temple and recall back to the dungeon. I would do this until the dungeon was cleared. After I was done, I would go to the scamp, mark my position right in front of him, head back to the temple that my loot was outside of, pick it all up and recall to sell it all to the scamp.0 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yeah, I sure do miss the unique, totally unpredictable dungeons they had in Oblivion."A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle0 -
OrangeTheCat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dungeons, Caves, Ruins, Delves...All should be unique. The circuitous layout is cheesy, lazy and unimaginative. If this is on their "things to fix" list that would be a good thing.
snip
I think it was like some other things in the game, a quick and dirty feature\aspect so that when release day came around they could say it was in the game (e.g., that LFG tool) even though they must have known at the get-go that it was inadequate.
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