Dleatherus's Guild Summit Comments - The Good, The Bad & The Ugly

Dleatherus

First of all I would like to thank ZOS for the invite

Their hospitality was awesome

It was very evident that the devs are incredibly dedicated and passionate about the game

two links handle the content of the summit far better than I could so i won't duplicate the info in these threads:

http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/10/eso-guild-summit/

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/134679/media-youtube-ified-eso-guild-summit-2014-audio#latest

Whereas a lot of time was allowed for feedback and discussion with the devs, I was extremely disappointed that if I even brought up any of the issues that currently plague us in PvP such as lag, exploits, macros I was quickly shut down by 'management'

a prime example being my addressing exploiting and being told that cheats and exploiters exist, and that ZOS cannot determine a players intent - I was left floored by this response

it doesn't take much to figure out a person's intent if they are 'friendly' dk chain pulling, emperor farming, oil pot AP farming, using game mechanics in an unintended way to set up forward camps behind closed enemy gates, become invulnerable etc (they are making 'some adjustments'

ffs grow a pair and police your game

just as disappointing was the lack of support from other PvP guild leaders that when I broached these topics there was an ominous lack of support/voiced agreement

this guild summit was our opportunity to emphasize what is hurting us in PvP NOW, as well learn and coment about the awesome content that is coming down the road

one of my comments to Brian Wheeler was that I thought the Imperial City was amazing, but my concern was whether by the time it made it to live, if we'd even have players left in PvP due to the existing issues - support from the other PvP guild leaders - none

I think that what ZOS has coming down the road is awesome, yet I left the summit with the feeling that as a group, including myself, we let the PvP community down

I'm not angry, or unsubbing or anything like that, just disappointed

I'll be logging into ESO only occasionally from now on to get a little bit of a gank fix since for me, Cyrodiil has ceased to be the fun environment it used to be - not because i have grown bored with it - it has such potential - more to do with lag, crashes, FPS, players exploiting and ZOS doing little about it

if ZOS starts getting serious about addressing the real issues that cause the frustration factor to exceed the fun factor on an on going basis, i'll get serious about playing more

game has been out for 180 days, with my two characters i have logged just over 90 days played - one of the benefits of being retired and loving mmo's - i typically play one mmo for about 3-5 years before it gets 'stale' and move on - ESO isn't stale to me, but I play for one reason only - to have fun, and for me Cyrodiil just isn't fun anymore for the above mentioned reasons

To the PvP community, please accept my apologies that I wasn't more effective in having our current concerns addressed

Sincerely,

D.

Braidas

damn you other guild leaders!! srsly don't feel bad D, I think we all expected this to be more of a PR stunt showing 20 people upcoming stuff to get the community excited than anything else. very unsurprising they didn't actually listen/answer any concerns - i mean they give the same *** responses on the forums, why would irl be any different? even if all 20 of you came in vehemently posing questions to current issues i doubt it would have been much different. i'm sure the devs are doing what they can under, as you said, management restrictions.

Maulkin

Thanks for the update D

To be honest the whole cheating/exploiting thing can depend on your personal experiences. Other than that period after update 1.3.sth when a bug allowed weapon power to scale ridiculously high allowing for one-shots, I haven't experienced much exploiting myself. So if somebody said to me that exploiters were ruining the game, my reaction would be somewhat muted too, because I've never been affected so badly.

That said, I don't like how they never clarify what is exploiting and they never warn people with bans. They never said for example:
"There is a certain issue with set/ability X that has causes an undesired effect Y. We are aware and currently fixing this but until then if any players are proven to use this issue to gain an unfair advantage they will be banned". So yeah I agree they need to be quite a bit more proactive about that.

I also feel some sympathy for them because, things like friendly DK chain pulling and oil-pot parties etc are difficult to prove without video evidence. They've been slowly closing the loopholes (oil goes out quicker, chain's been nerfed etc) but since they were using normal game mechanics it's difficult to prove intent as they said.

Anyhow, moving on.

Did they say anything specific about the lag and crashes. Are they doing anything to improve things, or did you feel they swept it under the carpet a bit? I'm asking because for my guild that's the #1 complain I hear about every single day.

Armitas

Dleatherus wrote: »

a prime example being my addressing exploiting and being told that cheats and exploiters exist, and that ZOS cannot determine a players intent - I was left floored by this response

Intent cannot scientifically be determined, however it is derived in several ways, psychiatry, court of law, logic, probability assessment via evidential data. Each of us determine each others intent everyday of our lives.

With so many current avenues for establishing intent being available it is simply not good enough to wash ones hands of determining intent. True you cannot always tell, but it is not always vague either. You have to do this every hour of your life why would you cease to do it here ZOS?

Ifthir_ESO

So sorry to read this, but I am unsurprised.

Either Brian Wheeler has failed to convince Matt Firor of the importance of PvP attention, or the Management team simply doesn't care. Which is unfortunate.

The problem is they have these analytics that say "PvP'ers are 10% of our customer base".

What they fail to realize is that those 10% play 10x as much as a normal player. They tell their friends, they post on youtube, etc. The 10% of PvP'ers do more to promote this game than all of the casuals x10.

timidobserver

They did not fly you out so that you could read the list of bugs and perceived exploits the game has. It was more about the future of the game's content.

Braidas

Armitas wrote: »

Dleatherus wrote: »

a prime example being my addressing exploiting and being told that cheats and exploiters exist, and that ZOS cannot determine a players intent - I was left floored by this response

Intent cannot scientifically be determined, however it is derived in several ways, psychiatry, court of law, logic, probability assessment via evidential data. Each of us determine each others intent everyday of our lives.

With so many current avenues for establishing intent being available it is simply not good enough to wash ones hands of determining intent. True you cannot always tell, but it is not always vague either. You have to do this every hour of your life why would you cease to do it here ZOS?

which is also *** b/c plenty of my guildies have been banned for ridiculous things - they clearly decide intent

Rylana

this is depressing

Armitas

Braidas wrote: »

which is also * b/c plenty of my guildies have been banned for ridiculous things - they clearly decide intent

I want to be sure I understand you. Were they banned for ridiculous things that they did do, or banned for things that are ridiculous that they have not done? Careful how you answer because there is a policy on talking about it in detail iirc. Not looking for details, just trying to understand if your statement more reflects the first sentence or the last so I can better infer whats going on with their process.

Agrippa_Invisus

This is less than encouraging.

Huntler

I think OP and others vastly overestimate how many people exploit in this game, which is why you likely didn't get support and the response was so little from Zeni. As for the other factors I'd love for crashing, lag, etc. to be fixed, but alas.

You also likely didn't receive any support on Imperial City because they can't just rush that out even if they are losing players. An unfinished city going live would be even worse than waiting, by far. You can't just snap your fingers and make it so, its not the simple. In addition, I think many PvPers understand after hearing about their presentation of the Imperial City is that it is not going to be a PvP zone. Sure you can fight in there, but its basically just PvE. Nothing like Darkness Falls, they pandered to everybody wins by letting all sides enter as long as they own home keeps. Its going to be a PvE experience with maybe SOME gankers about 1 month after release (obviously everyone will be in there the first few weeks because its new). Hell I even predict (because this always happens) that it will turn into a place where if you do go there to PvP you'll get belittled by the PvErs trying to get their loot. I imagine thats the reason you saw no support, in the end, Imperial City is NOT going to change anything about PvP. Its unimportant to PvP and will just be another PvE experience, but thats just my opinion.... I've seen this *** happen before.

Dleatherus

timidobserver wrote: »

They did not fly you out so that you could read the list of bugs and perceived exploits the game has. It was more about the future of the game's content.

I fully expected to see the future of the game's content - and i restate that what they have coming is looking really good

it would be foolish of them NOT to get us hyped and pumped about what they have in store - this is sound business policy and exactly what they should be doing

my disappointment is that whilst encouraging discussion about what is happening down the road, and issues raised concerning what is causing PvP'ers to leave right now was squashed by management and not elaborated upon by other PvP guild leaders

I also think it is ZOS's right to address/not address what does/doesn't fit in within their business model

I just happen to be disappointed that they don't consider some of our current issues worthy of dialog - a personal viewpoint admittedly - but that's in part what forums are about - voicing personal viewpoints

D.

Braidas

Armitas wrote: »

Braidas wrote: »

which is also * b/c plenty of my guildies have been banned for ridiculous things - they clearly decide intent

I want to be sure I understand you. Were they banned for ridiculous things that they did do, or banned for things that are ridiculous that they have not done?

things they have done, but not necessarily through their own intent, such as getting their dmg borked, as well as things they have done that were automatically decided by zos to constitute exploiting, such as accumulating a lot of gold. not only have they banned based on nothing but suspicion, but also because of their own mistakes. that they can't or won't decide intent is ***

Rune_Relic

Is there any one left to apologise to ?

I thought they were going to sit you down and let you play esoX with champion system and upcoming content TBH. Hence the reason "you" had to go "there" to have physical access to their systems.

Well I was right about the champions system latest and whats coming [which does sound awesome]...but wrong about the need to be there. Would have even made sense as ESO OTR podcast sitdown.

We learned a lot more from many more angles than we normally get. So it wasnt a wasted journey even if the discussion was within a prison wall remit. Perhaps part of them want to be open and honest and part of them want to keep surprises and secrets.

..or is it all just smoke and mirrors to take our mind off the bugs and issues ? If you were physically experiencing such future content ...I guess I wouldnt be wondering this.

Dleatherus

@Huntler‌

i believe you misunderstood my post

i wasn't advocating that they bring out imperial city sooner than it is ready - i was making a statement that by the time they do, because of current ongoing unaddressed issues, they might find that they don't have a lot of PvP population left to have fun in it

also bear in mind that any of our current issues brought up were glossed over, namely lag/crashes, macros, and exploits

it's natural that guilds that set up forward camps behind closed enemy gates, or emperor farm might think that OP is exaggerating - i'm voicing my opinion based upon my experience of what has happened within my own guild, and from discussions with other guild leaders, and the individual issues I stated in my original Open Letter to ZOS thread effect some of us greatly, and others of us not all, but us a whole effect us as a community and effect healthy PvP as a whole

D.

Grim13

What ZOS need to understand is that PvP has been reduced to one populated server and 3-4 ghost town / buff servers.

There are obvious reasons for this attrition rate.

It doesn't matter how awesome any future content may be... there may be no one left to *** play it.

Armitas

Huntler wrote: »

I think OP and others vastly overestimate how many people exploit in this game, which is why you likely didn't get support and the response was so little from Zeni. As for the other factors I'd love for crashing, lag, etc. to be fixed, but alas.

This could be true, I don't know. I don't think it's the number that is the real issue. It really only takes 1 public case to make an impact. If 1 person continues to exploit and achieves broad visibility against multiple outcries both in the forums and in game tickets and yet is perpetually allowed to continue exploiting it invalidates the whole realm of PvP.

If the realm of PvP is perceived as a place where any possible action can occur without constraint then the intrinsic metastructures from which an immersive fantasy atmosphere emerges from, and derives it's value from, will collapse. If the realm of PvP becomes invalid then our actions there are without intrinsic value because it is the validity given to an immersive atmosphere that gives it an intrinsic value.

While a player can import metavalue to their actions in PvP, such as griefing someone, it is the intrinsic value derived from the game itself that provides a lasting and successful atmosphere.

Huntler

Armitas wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

I think OP and others vastly overestimate how many people exploit in this game, which is why you likely didn't get support and the response was so little from Zeni. As for the other factors I'd love for crashing, lag, etc. to be fixed, but alas.

This could be true, I don't know. I don't think it's the number that is the real issue. It really only takes 1 public case to make an impact. If 1 person continues to exploit and achieves broad visibility against multiple outcries both in the forums and in game tickets and yet is perpetually allowed to continue exploiting it invalidates the whole realm of PvP.

You're right perception matters, but I wish people would just be a bit more understanding and realize 1 bad apple isn't that big of a deal. Regardless I just don't see these "people who are always exploiting, but don't receive the consequences." Since people have claimed the most ridiculous things to be exploits, I find that these so called "exploits" tend to be just bad players not understanding the mechanics of the game and thus call exploit.


As for D's comment, placing a camp behind gates was literally quoted as not an exploit by zenimax, so... theres your problem right there, claiming something is an exploit that isn't.

Agrippa_Invisus

Armitas wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

I think OP and others vastly overestimate how many people exploit in this game, which is why you likely didn't get support and the response was so little from Zeni. As for the other factors I'd love for crashing, lag, etc. to be fixed, but alas.

This could be true, I don't know. I don't think it's the number that is the real issue. It really only takes 1 public case to make an impact. If 1 person continues to exploit and achieves broad visibility against multiple outcries both in the forums and in game tickets and yet is perpetually allowed to continue exploiting it invalidates the whole realm of PvP.

If the realm of PvP is perceived as a place where any possible action can occur without constraint then the intrinsic metastructures from which an immersive fantasy atmosphere emerges from, and derives it's value from, will collapse. If the realm of PvP becomes invalid then our actions there are without intrinsic value because it is the validity given to an immersive atmosphere that gives it an intrinsic value.

In short --

exploiters make the actions in game worthless, and if people start realizing that, the little remaining value this game has evaporates.

Ifthir_ESO

Exactly, @Agrippa_Invisus‌

Other games have this same issue. Right now Diablo 3 has a major scandal going on revolving around exploiting in one of their competitive areas. Sadly, they are handling it just like they ZoS does with pvp exploiters. They do nothing and hope it goes away or we stop talking about. Sadly they don't see, how not responding or reacting to this behavior, is killing their playerbase.

Nazon_Katts

Nothing replaces actual GM in-game presence. The suit that came up with the theory they're not needed should be shunned by the industry. Being locked-in in a white room with a GM discussing one's intentions does actually help with understaning what not to do. GMs witnessing, monitoring and evaluating players' behavior in real time does give a clear view on intentions as well.

Nothing can replace that. And every dollar you might save by not employing enough staff is lost two-fold with every player that turns down your game, because of your inability to provide the premium service you promised to offer. Good service is to have more personnel than needed, to react to any needs at all times your customers might have.

Other than that, can't say I expected anything else.

Armitas

Ifthir_ESO wrote: »

Exactly, @Agrippa_Invisus‌

Other games have this same issue. Right now Diablo 3 has a major scandal going on revolving around exploiting in one of their competitive areas. Sadly, they are handling it just like they ZoS does with pvp exploiters. They do nothing and hope it goes away or we stop talking about. Sadly they don't see, how not responding or reacting to this behavior, is killing their playerbase.

It was the duping and hacked items that killed d2 for me. Awesome and rare loot just was the overarching value of the game. With that value lost due to exploiters the whole d2 atmosphere just deflated and I could no longer see the value of my time there. I had just saved up like 12 sojs for a rune for my Barnars star too.

Columba

No surprise. We still have god mode most form exploiters who cannot be killed laughing at the rest of us. Pvp has become a joke.

Zintair

Is anyone surprised by this? ZoS has been fairly consistent in their ability to utterly let down. Would be nice if someone of importance actually had a clue what works and didn't.

But Imperial City guys....

Dleatherus

Huntler wrote: »

As for D's comment, placing a camp behind gates was literally quoted as not an exploit by zenimax, so... theres your problem right there, claiming something is an exploit that isn't.

actually it was quoted as there were legitimate places to place forward camps in the areas behind enemy temple gates (by applying the other info below also stated by the devs in the alliance forums, it is easy to understand that this refers to there being legal places to forward camps behind an enemy temple gate when that gate is open)

it was also quoted that using game mechanics to bypass closed enemy temple gates be it by terrain glitching, horse glitching, dragon leaping to enemy npc's on the gate etc. was unintended use of existing game mechanics (commonly known as exploiting) and was going to be addressed

it follows that if getting behind a closed enemy temple gate is an exploit, so is doing so and setting up a forward camp to enable others to bypass the closed gate also

there's your problem right there, folks participating in exploits and justifying it, due to lack of a timely response by ZOS, be it on the forums or in game

prime examples of exploits that large numbers of guilds participated in, including some of those that were represented at the Guild Summit - could be that is why it was quiet when these things were mentioned:

emperor farming (which caused hundreds if not thousands to unsub)
'friendly' dk chain pulling 10-20 'enemy players' to ninja cap keeps
oil pot AP farming
siege weapon max limit exploit
others i honestly couldn't be bothered to mention

i don't even necessarily blame the exploiters - we mmo'ers by nature like to explore every possibility for gaining an advantage over our enemy - such is the nature of pvp

as mentioned, am not going to be as involved in ESO for the reasons already stated

not going to argue over whether somebody agrees with it or not

i promised to give my feedback on the guild summit and have done so

in closing I will paraphrase a line that was said to me by management when i was addressing a current issue and stated that i wasn't satisfied with the answer:

"whether you are satisfied with the answer or not, is on you"

D.

Huntler

Dleatherus wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

As for D's comment, placing a camp behind gates was literally quoted as not an exploit by zenimax, so... theres your problem right there, claiming something is an exploit that isn't.

actually it was quoted as there were legitimate places to place forward camps in the areas behind enemy temple gates

it was also quoted that using game mechanics to bypass closed enemy temple gates be it by terrain glitching, horse glitching, dragon leaping to enemy npc's on the gate etc. was unintended use of existing game mechanics (commonly known as exploiting) and was going to be addressed

it follows that if getting behind a closed enemy temple gate is an exploit, so is doing so and setting up a forward camp to enable others to bypass the closed gate also

there's your problem right there, folks participating in exploits and justifying it, due to lack of a timely response by ZOS, be it on the forums or in game

prime examples of exploits that large numbers of guilds participated in, including some of those that were represented at the Guild Summit - could be that is why it was quiet when these things were mentioned:

emperor farming (which caused hundreds if not thousands to unsub)
'friendly' dk chain pulling 10-20 'enemy players' to ninja cap keeps
oil pot AP farming
siege weapon max limit exploit
others i honestly couldn't be bothered to mention

as mentioned, am not going to be as involved in ESO for the reasons already stated

not going to argue over whether somebody agrees with it or not

i promised to give my feedback on the guild summit and have done so

in closing I will paraphrase a line that was said to me by management when i was addressing a current issue and stated that i wasn't satisfied with the answer:

"whether you are satisfied with the answer or not, is on you"

D.

Quoting this now and will be editing in the post Brian Wheeler made about how putting up a camp behind the gates is not exploiting. Yes there were ways to exploit past the gate, but that is not what was being discussed... if you're going to accuse me or anyone of that you're just wrong so sorry. Example A, of someone claiming there was cheating.

I will post it here when I get the post (it was a while ago):

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/1175736/#Comment_1175736


Note your original post on the subject was :

Dleatherus wrote: »

it's natural that guilds that set up forward camps behind closed enemy gates, or emperor farm might think that OP is exaggerating

D.

You say just setting up forward camps behind closed gates is an exploit, its not. Deal with it, and next time you're going to excuse someone of exploiting how about you actually know what exploiting is... you're whats wrong with this game/community and whats wrong with people that cry exploit, it makes people who are actually exploiting harder to identify and you also hurt the community as a whole (as well as make yourself look stupid).



Edit: and thank you for proving my original point, people claiming exploit don't know what they are talking about is a very common occurrence.

Dleatherus

Huntler wrote: »

Quoting this now and will be editing in the post Brian Wheeler made about how putting up a camp behind the gates is not exploiting. Yes there were ways to exploit past the gate, but that is not what was being discussed... if you're going to accuse me or anyone of that you're just wrong so sorry. Example A, of someone claiming there was cheating.

I will post it here when I get the post (it was a while ago):

i added a couple of comments whilst you were replying

while you are zealously finding the one post that 'supports' your 'logic' do us all a favor and also find the one that they made that getting behind a closed enemy gate is unintended - and then see the mistake of your 'logic'

as i said in my edited post, i don't even blame the exploiters, we all try to get an advantage in pvp - but when ZOS makes a clear statement that something is unintended, then allows players to exploit it regardless until they get a 'fix', be it weeks or months down the road, has driven many from the game

that is a fact

D.

p.s. i believe that you're not being objective regarding this example, given that your own guild participated in this exact behavior day after day, week after week - i think your selective quoting of one post from a dev that 'supports' you, and totally ignoring the other dev post that makes this 'glitching' past a closed enemy gate clearly an exploit

Huntler

Dleatherus wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Quoting this now and will be editing in the post Brian Wheeler made about how putting up a camp behind the gates is not exploiting. Yes there were ways to exploit past the gate, but that is not what was being discussed... if you're going to accuse me or anyone of that you're just wrong so sorry. Example A, of someone claiming there was cheating.

I will post it here when I get the post (it was a while ago):

i added a couple of comments whilst you were replying

while you are zealously finding the one post that 'supports' your 'logic' do us all a favor and also find the one that they made that getting behind a closed enemy gate is unintended - and then see the mistake of your 'logic'

as i said in my edited post, i don't even blame the exploiters, we all try to get an advantage in pvp - but when ZOS makes a clear statement that something is unintended, then allows players to exploit it regardless until they get a 'fix', be it weeks or months down the road, has driven many from the game

that is a fact

D.

p.s. i believe that you're not being objective regarding this example, given that your own guild participated in this exact behavior day after day, week after week - i think your selective quoting of one post from a dev that 'supports' you, and totally ignoring the other dev post that makes this clear

the 1 post? You mean the one post in the major thread about the subject where Brian Wheeler, the final say on this since Cyrodiil is his domain? And you are the one adding words, I completely agree exploiting through a wall is exploiting. We didn't exploit and if you have dev posts otherwise claiming that placing a camp behind a closed wall is exploiting then by all means, please post away your dev quote like I did.



edit: Just read your edits...

oil pot farming is exploiting now? Are you freaking serious? Done with this conversation, no sense in trying to explain what is and isn't an exploit to you. You haven't got a clue, shame that there are people like you in this community.


edit again: This is obviously getting heated because I take offense to someone claiming I or people I play with exploited or cheated so I'm just going to leave it there. All I can say is you're wrong and I have provided my evidence, do not combine different things and place words in my mouth. Thats it and I'm going to leave it at that.

Aenra

so they circumvented questions no one in their right mind would answer, (scripta manent), and you see this as being ignored? I don't see PvP being ignored, sorry.

imbalance that is being worked out is just that. Worked out, awaiting sorting
(delayed or not, excused or not, your mileage)
crashes/lag that are being investigated are just that. Investigated, pending fine tuning or optimisation
(delayed or not, excused or not, your mileage. Exception for people with paleolithic rigs whining along with the rest of the affected ones)

On the other hand:
- you do have an entire Cyrodiil

which between you and me, had no damn reason being in this game, because:
a)benefits it had in DAoC are absent, because themepark this time
b)we needed 'balance'. Goodbye OP builds, goodbye TRUE "play YOUR way", a-la TES we knew and were used to. PvP needs balance. Ranged magic casters doing equal damage to melee better protected slow weilding fighters. Fun...
c)whining. Let's be honest, you are the vocal minority in most games

- you are getting the Justice system
- you can hope for more and for a good reason, as they have left further PvP venues open, to be considered in the future

It is in our nature to hope for more, ask for more. I get it. You want everything sorted 'nao', and extra pvp-oriented additions weekly. You are entitled to.
Personally? You shouldn't even be here, the cost this style of play has had on this game, just because "PvP", is so so large when you consider the alternatives..expect no sympathy. Personally speaking of course. Am sure you will continue to complain to no end. Human nature

LonePirate

Huntler wrote: »

In addition, I think many PvPers understand after hearing about their presentation of the Imperial City is that it is not going to be a PvP zone. Sure you can fight in there, but its basically just PvE. Nothing like Darkness Falls, they pandered to everybody wins by letting all sides enter as long as they own home keeps. Its going to be a PvE experience with maybe SOME gankers about 1 month after release (obviously everyone will be in there the first few weeks because its new). Hell I even predict (because this always happens) that it will turn into a place where if you do go there to PvP you'll get belittled by the PvErs trying to get their loot. I imagine thats the reason you saw no support, in the end, Imperial City is NOT going to change anything about PvP. Its unimportant to PvP and will just be another PvE experience, but thats just my opinion.... I've seen this *** happen before.

A couple of months ago, I posted about the Imperial City being mostly PVE after one of the designers pretty much admitted it. This should not have been a surprise, even though some of the mechanics have changed for the better (the keeps that must be owned).

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/122301/imperial-city-is-mostly-a-pve-zone

That being said, the justice system seems like it will be opening up quite a bit of PVP in the PVE zones, even if it is not the open world PVP that some want. You win some and lose some I suppose.

Dleatherus

@Huntler‌

so a guy standing under an enemy keep walls with two oil pots while 20 of his 'alt guild' buddies jump off the wall, don't attack him. stand there until dead, rez at keep, hop off walls again, die again, rinse and repeat, is absolutely fine and healthy pvp? - yeah, you're right, i don't have a clue

and yup, the accusation stands - i'm not going to sift through the hundreds of threads to find the one where the devs (forget if it was jessica or brian) specifically state that getting around a closed enemy gate is a glitch - follow the logic that then getting behind one and placing a camp isn't intended

btw how come you guys don't use this 'legit' tactic anymore - just curious

D,