Dumb Question about End Game/Sandbox vs Theme Park

Gidorick

I am not an MMO player by any stretch of the imagination. I come from the single player side of gaming and the love of TES brought me to ESO. I’ve been playing since beta and have two characters I play. One is currently level 15 and one is 19… so you can see I have a very long way to go to reach end game at my current level.

I do, however, have a couple questions about veteran and post-veteran gameplay.

How does veteran gameplay differ from pre-lvl 50 gameplay? Is it simply harder levels that require more co-op play? What does a player do AFTER all the story has been played through?

I hear see ESO referred to as a “theme-park” MMO and for me, that’s fine. I LIKE the structured story and the structure is still open enough for me to feel like I have a bit of freedom. On the other hand. I absolutely LOVE sandbox gameplay in other games like GTA and Minecraft.

Once the story has been pushed through and the content runs out does ESO become more of a sandbox game? COULD it be a sandbox game at that point? What sorts of changes/enhancements would there need to be for ESO to be a more engaging sandboxy MMO? Is this even a possibility?

Thanks!

Shaun98ca2

This is actually a VERY good question. If I'm not mistaken what I have heard is that...

Sandbox games you have the freedom to do whatever you want in essence creating your own endgame.

Themepark games your endgame is a little more dictated as in dungeon diving or raiding.

Though to be quite honest with you im going to flat out state that while YES sandbox games do have more freedom, it seems to me that Themepark games actually provide more reward for endgame than a Sandbox game.

Now that's not to say that certain Sandbox games don't have their own rewards in the endgame but the real question is do they really stack up?

Be nice if there were more people here that are familiar with other certain games to be able to compare these better.

dharbert

This game is definitely a theme park. The previous ultimate, do whatever you want whenever you want sandbox MMO was Star Wars Galaxies, and the current ultimate sandbox MMO is EVE Online.

I much prefer the sandbox style to theme park.

Gidorick

It would seem to me that a sandbox MMO would be much more sustainable.

The Thieves Guild and the bounty systems that are inbound would make ESO more sandboxy. People could play as a thief or bounty hunter and not even touch the story.

Are there any other upcoming elements that would make ESO lean toward a sandbox style of gameplay?

leeux

IMHO, vet levels have a sandbox feeling to them, but one zone at a time.

In normal leveling, the progression is very visible since the mobs are different levels and you see them get higher as you move from place to place.

In the vet zones, all the zone are at the same level, so you could theoretically go anywhere, anytime.

I say 'theoretically' because there's still some key places tied to the progression of the main story in the zone, that probably wouldn't have anything interesting in them until you get the related quest step that happens there.

As far as exploration and side questing goes, that's very sandbox-y in my opinion... but as far as main quest goes, you still are very much on-rails.

Gidorick

Ok. So ESO seems to have elements of both types of designs within it already. That's good to know.

Knootewoot

Although i prefer sandbox games (Starwars Galaxies, ryzom) sometimes a mmo has a good mix of those 2. Vanguard provided quests and every chunk had it's own unique story. But it also had a great sense of freedom. Quests were not that important and the guilds i was in made their own objectives.

Currently ArchAge has that same freedom Vanguard offered. Not the ultimate freedom like SWG (since the original SWG only had a few fetch/kill and search quests) but you can do quests but live your own virtual life.

For me sandbox means not exploring and sidequests. It is doing your own thing, build your house, decorate, have fashion shows and give music concerts (as SWG had a lot) people getting married, wearing normal clothes instead of only armor, fishing, casino's, people having contests (fishing, races), grouping up for resource gathering, player driver economy (not everyone should make everything so people have to work together).

I love TESO, but it is more a themepark mmo. There is little else to do next to the quests and PvP. And certainly after lvl 50 you only get xp for kills and quests and no longer from exploring.

After you hit V14 and did all quests (i don't like Craglorn) i only craft and PvP. My guild are mostly PvP guilds so it is great fun. But without PvP i don't think i would play TESO very long. There is little else to do besides Craglorn and PvP once you hit max level.

Soloeus

ESO is total Theme Park, there is no sandbox.

In a sandbox, especially in the endgame, Crafting is focused on things like building houses, and keeps.

Imagine if there were no Wall Repair Kits. Instead, you have to buy Stone and "Refine" it to Bricks, which you can use to repair walls; or even strengthen them. Imagine if you could Craft siege engines with different types of properties for the AoE.

In a sandbox, the endgame allows Crafting to remain the primary source of the "best stuff." Crafting in these games is much harder from the beginning. Refining 10 Ore would get you 1 wood, and the respawn rate would be once per hour. From there, inspiration would come mostly from Creation not Deconstruction (because Decon would be too easy on a 10/1 refining system).

Crafting can become a "chore." One drawback is often, the items you "need" for Crafting are gated behind Raids, High end PVP and other content that "Crafters" don't enjoy. ESO allows "Crafters" to be a part of the normal game, while in Sandboxes, crafting can be the whole game for you, if you want.

In many Sandbox Games, the Crafting interacts with almost every aspect of the game.

Now, in a Sandbox MMO endgame, part of the "trap" is that too many elements of endgame activities are also gated behind crafting. This means to really defend keeps you need crafters to refine bricks to rebuild walls, and build siege engines. This "eternal" time sink will define when and who can PVP. It also ensures that Materials are always leaving the game as a maintenance cost to perform these activities. In a way, it forces your guild to have 5-6 Crafters constantly gathering required materials to maintain your guilds ability to do activities. When you run out of Stone, you can't repair walls and that makes defending keeps kinda hard.

Sandbox MMO's are very sustainable however the traps take the content that normally appeals to "Casuals" or "Solo Players" and "Crafters" and makes access to that content codependent on Group Activities. For this reason, a lot of Casuals and Crafter types leave these games because they don't enjoy Raids or Grouping; and Elite Groups follow suit because they don't enjoy harvesting mats or crafting. There is also a trend of Sandboxes to have Full PVP/Loot which maintains competition from Crafters: Instead of harvesting Void Cloth, you go to void cloth gathering spots and kill the person harvesting on their way back to town. This also drives people away from the game.

Sandbox MMO's drive people away all the time.

There is no perfect model, but Hybrid models that employ elements of Theme Parks and Sandboxes both, are the ones that are more interesting.

Gidorick

I think ESO would benefit from a bit more of the sandbox elements. The idea of buying a home in a town and living a little life in that town sounds cool. The need to craft materials to repair walls sounds cool but daunting!

These all sound like elements that can be implemented but making one change could break another system.

Hopefully by the time I reach endgame ZOS will have implemented some other ways to play the game.

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. I really think ESO needs to have more sandbox elements in it... especially for post endgame activities.

Vahrokh

Theme park= developers decide your path to progression on a canned path, you are a follower.

Sandbox= developers give you tools to make you decide your own path to whatever progression you want, you are a leader.

@Above:
There are sandbox MMOs where solo players are plenty supported.


ESO has a decent craft depth, with a large but not huge amout of work, they could turn ESO into a level up theme park + sandbox when at max level.

Helwyr

gideon_nine_ESO wrote: »

I do, however, have a couple questions about veteran and post-veteran gameplay.

How does veteran gameplay differ from pre-lvl 50 gameplay? Is it simply harder levels that require more co-op play? What does a player do AFTER all the story has been played through?

I hear see ESO referred to as a “theme-park” MMO and for me, that’s fine. I LIKE the structured story and the structure is still open enough for me to feel like I have a bit of freedom. On the other hand. I absolutely LOVE sandbox gameplay in other games like GTA and Minecraft.

Once the story has been pushed through and the content runs out does ESO become more of a sandbox game? COULD it be a sandbox game at that point? What sorts of changes/enhancements would there need to be for ESO to be a more engaging sandboxy MMO? Is this even a possibility?

Thanks!

My impression was ESO was meant to be more of a hybrid with elements of both Themepark and Sandbox centered games. At present it's heading very much in a Themepark direction. The problem for Zenimax is very few players embrace both the so called "end game" of Themepark MMOs and Sandbox type gameplay.

Veteran gameplay at present becomes more Themepark not less than the earlier game. You're basically pushed to grind through the other two factions PvE content (which also makes little sense in terms of story and immersion) and then you're presented with the epitome of Themepark gameplay with group/raid style PvE. Yes there's Cyrodiil, but if that's all you do you're increasingly handicapped statistically, assuming you can play at all without crashing all the time.

Could ESO be a more sandbox MMO? Certainly, but at minimum Zenimax would have to isolate that Themepark raid/arena PvE content from Cyrodiil/PvP and crafting, essentially making two different games within one. But I've seen no sign that Zenimax will do that.

If you're pre 50/VR1, I would enjoy the main story, do a bit of Cyrodill in the non-VR campaign, then go play something else when you reach VR1 unless you're a WoW/EQ type player that loves PvE raids and gear grinding.

Nazon_Katts

Vahrokh wrote: »

ESO has a decent craft depth, with a large but not huge amout of work, they could turn ESO into a level up theme park + sandbox when at max level.

Think that's the plan with the VR revamp, champion sys and TG/DB, tho I don't think it'll ever reach true sandbox mechanics, the sandboxy feel this will add is very much welcome.