Balance on a skill line level

Lionxoft

This is not even about class balance. We already know that some over there are incapable of grasping that concept. This topic is about balance within skill lines themselves. There are so many useless skills in this game. For every useful ability I'd guess there are about 2-3 useless ones. You have some weapon skills that are so vastly superior than others within their own skill line. The following example is the kind of design flaw that makes me facepalm for you. There are plenty of abilities in this game that need to be reworked.

For example: Stampede is hitting my targets for about 600-650ish. Uppercut has a cast time and is only causing around 430?

Uppercut has a cast time and costs more to use! Why is a gap closer that stuns and deals significant damage spammable? These abilities should have a situational use and not spam.

Since it's important for ZOS mods to have these posts be constructive here's some constructive feedback.

Have abilities make sense and be situational

Gap closers should cost significantly more than abilities that are not due to their CC and legitimate damage. The minimum range should also be increased so I don't just have to take 3 steps back to charge you again for another 600+.

There are so many abilities in this game that require some attention. An example is the NB cloak still gets broken by abilities that CC on cast instead of impact. Projectiles still break this ability as well as some DoT. It has been 6 months since release and the game has been actively tested for nearly a year plus.

Give abilities a situation and make the poorly built abilities into something that is useful.




PS Off-Topic: Don't get me started on your server performance in Cyrodil.

darkdruidssb14_ESO

Lionxoft wrote: »

For example: Crit charge his hitting my targets for about 600-650ish. Uppercut has a cast time and is only causing around 430?

Uppercut has a cast time and costs more to use! Why is a gap closer that stuns and deals significant damage spammable? These abilities should have a situational use and not spam.

I thought Critical Charge doesn't stun. It gets you to your target and deals damage. You can morph it to deal more damage or have a small root.. but no stun.

Uppercut does damage, stuns and knocks back at it's base skill. The cast time prevents a stun-lock scenario from happening since the player can "break free" before you can hit another Uppercut.

I think you are comparing things wrong.. not the best way to start a balance conversation.

Focused Charge (templar skill) does stun on impact if the target is casting and deals damage.

Shield Charge (1h/shield skill) does damage and stuns.

Were you thinking about the wrong skills?

Lionxoft

darkdruidssb14_ESO wrote: »

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Lionxoft wrote: »

For example: Crit charge his hitting my targets for about 600-650ish. Uppercut has a cast time and is only causing around 430?

Uppercut has a cast time and costs more to use! Why is a gap closer that stuns and deals significant damage spammable? These abilities should have a situational use and not spam.

I thought Critical Charge doesn't stun. It gets you to your target and deals damage. You can morph it to deal more damage or have a small root.. but no stun.

Uppercut does damage, stuns and knocks back at it's base skill. The cast time prevents a stun-lock scenario from happening since the player can "break free" before you can hit another Uppercut.

I think you are comparing things wrong.. not the best way to start a balance conversation.

Focused Charge (templar skill) does stun on impact if the target is casting and deals damage.

Shield Charge (1h/shield skill) does damage and stuns.

Were you thinking about the wrong skills?

Stampede (Morph of crit charge) immobilizes on cast. That's my bad and I will update the original post in case anyone can infer for themselves. If we are to try and list all then Ambush is another spammable gap closer which has no minimum distance to target. That's not the point of the discussion but rather an example to the lack of balance skill lines have.

However I believe that you are missing the point of the topic. Stampede (Crit charge morph) is spammable however the other abilities inhabiting the 2h skill tree are less than stellar. Uppercut does damage and CC as it's base skill. You are correct. However it requires a cast time.

What's the situational decision that is made when one can choose a gap closer that causes significant damage, altars the player's positioning and/or inflicting cc without a diminished return as opposed to another skill?

Lionxoft

Maybe I'm looking for a game that makes sense in regards to combat/abilities and it just isn't this one.

darkdruidssb14_ESO

Lionxoft wrote: »

What's the situational decision that is made when one can choose a gap closer that causes significant damage, altars the player's positioning and/or inflicting cc without a diminished return as opposed to another skill?

That's just it though. Critical Charge doesn't stun or knock back. It immobilizes.. which isn't the same because the target can still attack while rooted... you just moved to him after all. You could roll out of the root if you want, but you don't have to do that to deal damage to your attacker.

Uppercut does a stun and knock back. It has a cast time to reduce stun-locking your target. You have to "break free" to be able to do any other action after being hit by Uppercut unless you wait out the stun duration. It costs a lot because it has top tier CC.

That is the balancing point. Stronger CC should have higher costs or a cast time since abilities don't have individual cool downs like other games.

Lionxoft

darkdruidssb14_ESO wrote: »

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Lionxoft wrote: »

What's the situational decision that is made when one can choose a gap closer that causes significant damage, altars the player's positioning and/or inflicting cc without a diminished return as opposed to another skill?

That's just it though. Critical Charge doesn't stun or knock back. It immobilizes.. which isn't the same because the target can still attack while rooted... you just moved to him after all. You could roll out of the root if you want, but you don't have to do that to deal damage to your attacker.

Uppercut does a stun and knock back. It has a cast time to reduce stun-locking your target. You have to "break free" to be able to do any other action after being hit by Uppercut unless you wait out the stun duration. It costs a lot because it has top tier CC.

That is the balancing point. Stronger CC should have higher costs or a cast time since abilities don't have individual cool downs like other games.

So spamming gap closers (I see that you avoided Ambush being mentioned) makes sense to you? Is that situational gameplay?

darkdruidssb14_ESO

Lionxoft wrote: »

So spamming gap closers (I see that you avoided Ambush being mentioned) makes sense to you? Is that situational gameplay?

Are you derailing your own thread? This was supposed to be about skill lines... not individual skills in other skill lines.

Just looking at two handed skills... A gap closer is nice, but immobilize is situational. Most people go for damage based on range because it's a damage ability.

If you are looking for CC then Critical Charge doesn't provide it. Uppercut does though... with a stun and knock back. It's important to realize that is 2 CCs in 1 activation. You aren't just stunning... you are also knocking them away from you.

So what happens if a target is knocked away from you? OH! You can Critical Charge back to them! Since they are stunned then they can't block the hit unless they "break free".

If you look at skills by themselves it might be hard to see any balance, but when you combine skills with other skills in the same line then it starts to make a lot more sense.

So what is there to prevent you from running a uppercut + critical charge chain on someone until they die? That would be the 1 second cast time that allows for your target to have an escape.. if they play well enough to realize it's there.

Could you imagine if there were no cast time on Uppercut? Then people would just Wrecking Blow + Critical Rush a target till dead.

Lionxoft

darkdruidssb14_ESO wrote: »

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Lionxoft wrote: »

So spamming gap closers (I see that you avoided Ambush being mentioned) makes sense to you? Is that situational gameplay?

Are you derailing your own thread? This was supposed to be about skill lines... not individual skills in other skill lines.

Just looking at two handed skills... A gap closer is nice, but immobilize is situational. Most people go for damage based on range because it's a damage ability.

If you are looking for CC then Critical Charge doesn't provide it. Uppercut does though... with a stun and knock back. It's important to realize that is 2 CCs in 1 activation. You aren't just stunning... you are also knocking them away from you.

So what happens if a target is knocked away from you? OH! You can Critical Charge back to them! Since they are stunned then they can't block the hit unless they "break free".

If you look at skills by themselves it might be hard to see any balance, but when you combine skills with other skills in the same line then it starts to make a lot more sense.

So what is there to prevent you from running a uppercut + critical charge chain on someone until they die? That would be the 1 second cast time that allows for your target to have an escape.. if they play well enough to realize it's there.

Could you imagine if there were no cast time on Uppercut? Then people would just Wrecking Blow + Critical Rush a target till dead.

No, I am not derailing the discussion. Ambush was another skill found within another skill line that could be mentioned. This is not 2h centric. Not sure why you thought that. I used 2h as an example. Please comprehend. I also mentioned Ambush because you had mentioned the Templar's gap closer.

Gap closers being spammed negates the need for other abilities to be used which also negates situational combat. What's difficult for you to understand about that?

Also, uppercut is not the only other ability in the two handed tree. I agree that there should be a cast time but abilities need to have their costs and effects adjusted for what their purposes are making other abilities in that skill line more of a necessity instead of being ignored. There aren't cooldowns in this game for the most part. You can press those buttons as you please as long as you have the resources however some ability costs are just not in-line for the nature of the ability. There is nothing more ridiculous than having a gap closer spammed or an AOE spammed when it's single target because the ability is just THAT good.

Abilities have a situation to use them yet there is no punishment for disregarding that. There are so many abilities that are disregarded due to others being multi-purpose.

I use the gap closers as a previous example. Impulse is another ability that can be spammed to a decent effect even if it is single target.

Thejollygreenone

@Lionxoft , it's seeming like your real problem here is that 2h is that it doesn't have a very efficient spammable for pvp, and that you're, rightfully, lamenting that the best spammable for the tree is the gap closer. I can sympathize, I hate that too as a 2h user.

But that doesn't mean I think critical charge or teleport strike are imbalanced, or that wrecking blow is weak, I think the imbalance is in the lack of needed variety in some skill trees.

I would say some individual skills certainly should be looked at to be improved, I haven't ruled that out. I'm just pointing out how this discussion has devolved from what the title implied, and wanted to weigh in on the topic the thread had turned to.

In pve, wrecking blow is actually pretty nice, btw.

Samadhi

Re: Ambush as a gap closer and Skill Line balance:

Part of why Ambush is the "most damaging" skill in its line is because it is one of only two (non-ultimate) damaging skills in the line, and the other one is an execute.

Compared to other single-target Nightblade skills, Ambush is lower damage and higher Magicka cost.

Comprehend what you are getting at with regards to the Two-Handed line, but I do not really feel the sentiment extends effectively to Nightblade.

Lionxoft

Samadhi wrote: »

Re: Ambush as a gap closer and Skill Line balance:

Part of why Ambush is the "most damaging" skill in its line is because it is one of only two (non-ultimate) damaging skills in the line, and the other one is an execute.

Compared to other single-target Nightblade skills, Ambush is lower damage and higher Magicka cost.

Comprehend what you are getting at with regards to the Two-Handed line, but I do not really feel the sentiment extends effectively to Nightblade.

Spamming ambush should not equate to being even a semi effective NB though. Hope you see what I'm getting at there. I'd love to see some of the borderline useless abilities in the assassin tree become... Well, useful.

darkdruidssb14_ESO

Lionxoft wrote: »

Spamming ambush should not equate to being even a semi effective NB though. Hope you see what I'm getting at there. I'd love to see some of the borderline useless abilities in the assassin tree become... Well, useful.

What skills are you calling useless? It all depends on your build and goal with that build. (assuming the ability works as stated.. not talking about any bugs/broken abilities)

Samadhi

Lionxoft wrote: »

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Samadhi wrote: »

Re: Ambush as a gap closer and Skill Line balance:

Part of why Ambush is the "most damaging" skill in its line is because it is one of only two (non-ultimate) damaging skills in the line, and the other one is an execute.

Compared to other single-target Nightblade skills, Ambush is lower damage and higher Magicka cost.

Comprehend what you are getting at with regards to the Two-Handed line, but I do not really feel the sentiment extends effectively to Nightblade.

Spamming ambush should not equate to being even a semi effective NB though. Hope you see what I'm getting at there. I'd love to see some of the borderline useless abilities in the assassin tree become... Well, useful.

It already doesn't, aside from maybe spamming on people who try to Cloak or Bolt Escape away. In those situations, it makes sense for it to be the most effective option; nothing else Nightblade has closes the distances effectively.

In actual combat, spamming Ambush would be constitute large Magicka cost for low damage output.
At base cost Ambush is 420 Magicka compared to Veiled Strike or Strife coming in at 280 Magicka and dealing more damage.
Inefficient and ineffective.

Tweaking Ambush further would simply serve to also make it ineffective at the things it is actually supposed to be good for (ranged openers from Sneak and closing gaps).

With Two Handed, your argument makes sense. Critical Charge barely costs anything more than Uppercut does.
Framing Ambush among Nightblade skills in a similar context does not pan out though.

Can certainly agree that the Assassination line needs some buffs though.

darkdruidssb14_ESO

Lionxoft wrote: »

No, I am not derailing the discussion. Ambush was another skill found within another skill line that could be mentioned. This is not 2h centric. Not sure why you thought that. I used 2h as an example. Please comprehend. I also mentioned Ambush because you had mentioned the Templar's gap closer.

I comprehended the thread fine. I offered those other abilities in case you were thinking of abilities not in the Two Handed line with similar effects (they actually had stuns unlike your example).

The beginning of the thread you state you are discussing skills within their skill line. I focused on the 2 skills you mentioned to show you how they are balanced against each other.

Are you sure I am the one lacking comprehension?

Lionxoft wrote: »

Gap closers being spammed negates the need for other abilities to be used which also negates situational combat. What's difficult for you to understand about that?

No, it doesn't. No one picks 1 skill line and only uses skills in that 1 skill line. People will use something that prevents you from using your gap closer 100% of the time. You aren't going to spam gap closers to kill something in PvP. (except possibly Ambush, but that is a completely different conversation due to how magicka damage scales compared to stamina and the other abilities within the Assassination skill line.)

Lionxoft wrote: »

Also, uppercut is not the only other ability in the two handed tree. I agree that there should be a cast time but abilities need to have their costs and effects adjusted for what their purposes are making other abilities in that skill line more of a necessity instead of being ignored. There aren't cooldowns in this game for the most part. You can press those buttons as you please as long as you have the resources however some ability costs are just not in-line for the nature of the ability. There is nothing more ridiculous than having a gap closer spammed or an AOE spammed when it's single target because the ability is just THAT good.

Abilities have a situation to use them yet there is no punishment for disregarding that. There are so many abilities that are disregarded due to others being multi-purpose.

I use the gap closers as a previous example. Impulse is another ability that can be spammed to a decent effect even if it is single target.

I understand that there are more skills in the 2h line, but we were talking specifically about the balance between those 2 skills (as per your example... so I was discussing the balance you left out when comparing them).

If you are spamming a gap closer then you are terrible. We can all agree that spamming Pulsar is terrible... but there are counters to it as well and if you want to discuss Impulse balance then it should be with other skills in that skill line.. not cross skill lines as that was not the original purpose of this thread that YOU created.

Lionxoft

Samadhi wrote: »

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Lionxoft wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Re: Ambush as a gap closer and Skill Line balance:

Part of why Ambush is the "most damaging" skill in its line is because it is one of only two (non-ultimate) damaging skills in the line, and the other one is an execute.

Compared to other single-target Nightblade skills, Ambush is lower damage and higher Magicka cost.

Comprehend what you are getting at with regards to the Two-Handed line, but I do not really feel the sentiment extends effectively to Nightblade.

Spamming ambush should not equate to being even a semi effective NB though. Hope you see what I'm getting at there. I'd love to see some of the borderline useless abilities in the assassin tree become... Well, useful.

It already doesn't, aside from maybe spamming on people who try to Cloak or Bolt Escape away. In those situations, it makes sense for it to be the most effective option; nothing else Nightblade has closes the distances effectively.

In actual combat, spamming Ambush would be constitute large Magicka cost for low damage output.
At base cost Ambush is 420 Magicka compared to Veiled Strike or Strife coming in at 280 Magicka and dealing more damage.
Inefficient and ineffective.

Tweaking Ambush further would simply serve to also make it ineffective at the things it is actually supposed to be good for (ranged openers from Sneak and closing gaps).

With Two Handed, your argument makes sense. Critical Charge barely costs anything more than Uppercut does.
Framing Ambush among Nightblade skills in a similar context does not pan out though.

Can certainly agree that the Assassination line needs some buffs though.

There's someone in the top 10 of the leaderboards and spamming ambush is all he does. Is it not effective in PvP then? Sure, if he does it to a semi-competent pvp player then it will be combated fairly easily however he's in the top 10... Is there something that he is doing to make it effective then?

Lionxoft

darkdruidssb14_ESO wrote: »

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Lionxoft wrote: »

No, I am not derailing the discussion. Ambush was another skill found within another skill line that could be mentioned. This is not 2h centric. Not sure why you thought that. I used 2h as an example. Please comprehend. I also mentioned Ambush because you had mentioned the Templar's gap closer.

I comprehended the thread fine. I offered those other abilities in case you were thinking of abilities not in the Two Handed line with similar effects (they actually had stuns unlike your example).

The beginning of the thread you state you are discussing skills within their skill line. I focused on the 2 skills you mentioned to show you how they are balanced against each other.

Are you sure I am the one lacking comprehension?

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Lionxoft wrote: »

Gap closers being spammed negates the need for other abilities to be used which also negates situational combat. What's difficult for you to understand about that?

No, it doesn't. No one picks 1 skill line and only uses skills in that 1 skill line. People will use something that prevents you from using your gap closer 100% of the time. You aren't going to spam gap closers to kill something in PvP. (except possibly Ambush, but that is a completely different conversation due to how magicka damage scales compared to stamina and the other abilities within the Assassination skill line.)

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Lionxoft wrote: »

Also, uppercut is not the only other ability in the two handed tree. I agree that there should be a cast time but abilities need to have their costs and effects adjusted for what their purposes are making other abilities in that skill line more of a necessity instead of being ignored. There aren't cooldowns in this game for the most part. You can press those buttons as you please as long as you have the resources however some ability costs are just not in-line for the nature of the ability. There is nothing more ridiculous than having a gap closer spammed or an AOE spammed when it's single target because the ability is just THAT good.

Abilities have a situation to use them yet there is no punishment for disregarding that. There are so many abilities that are disregarded due to others being multi-purpose.

I use the gap closers as a previous example. Impulse is another ability that can be spammed to a decent effect even if it is single target.

I understand that there are more skills in the 2h line, but we were talking specifically about the balance between those 2 skills (as per your example... so I was discussing the balance you left out when comparing them).

If you are spamming a gap closer then you are terrible. We can all agree that spamming Pulsar is terrible... but there are counters to it as well and if you want to discuss Impulse balance then it should be with other skills in that skill line.. not cross skill lines as that was not the original purpose of this thread that YOU created.

You are not comprehending this thread whatsoever. Please go troll the forums elsewhere. There are a lot of great topics in the Alliance War section that are solely dedicated to trolling. I used it as an EXAMPLE and that EXAMPLE or template can be used to look at other skill lines.

If it makes more sense to you to put a possible solution out there then I can help.

Rough EXAMPLE: You cast Stampede for normal cost and it does it's normal effects as it is currently. If cast again within 4 seconds it will cost 50% more.

I hope that you can understand this is NOT 2h centric and is NOT Stampede centric. The same could be applied with different parameters or rules of adherence (take that mildly) to Impulse, Ambush etc etc.

Please, I urge you to comprehend it this time otherwise I'm not sure what else to tell you.

Last Attempt:
Combat should be situational and active. It currently is not. This is a problem.

Hope you at least understood the last part.

Samadhi

Lionxoft wrote: »

There's someone in the top 10 of the leaderboards and spamming ambush is all he does. Is it not effective in PvP then? Sure, if he does it to a semi-competent pvp player then it will be combated fairly easily however he's in the top 10... Is there something that he is doing to make it effective then?

Well, according to your own assessment, targeting incompetent PvP players makes Ambush spam effective. So there is that.

Genuinely effective use of Ambush is situational though, and is not based around spamming it. It is an effective option when used as a ranged opener or a gap closer, as was already stated.

Ambush has significantly higher cost than other damaging skills Nightblade has to choose from, and has notably lower damage.

darkdruidssb14_ESO

Lionxoft wrote: »

You are not comprehending this thread whatsoever. Please go troll the forums elsewhere. There are a lot of great topics in the Alliance War section that are solely dedicated to trolling. I used it as an EXAMPLE and that EXAMPLE or template can be used to look at other skill lines.

If it makes more sense to you to put a possible solution out there then I can help.

Rough EXAMPLE: You cast Stampede for normal cost and it does it's normal effects as it is currently. If cast again within 4 seconds it will cost 50% more.

I hope that you can understand this is NOT 2h centric and is NOT Stampede centric. The same could be applied with different parameters or rules of adherence (take that mildly) to Impulse, Ambush etc etc.

Please, I urge you to comprehend it this time otherwise I'm not sure what else to tell you.

Last Attempt:
Combat should be situational and active. It currently is not. This is a problem.

Hope you at least understood the last part.

Why does Critical Charge need to be changed? It's situational. The target has to be at range to use it for the best benefit. Most classes... except Sorc.. have better options for damage once you are in close range.. so you aren't going to spam Critical Charge once in range.

If you are spamming it as a Sorc then it's based of 1 situational build... Critical Surge build. Even then other players have options to shutdown Critical Charge spam.. so it becomes a non-issue that it's spammable.

Comparing it against other skills in it's own skill line then I see no reason for Critical Charge to change.

Again, I know this thread is not just about 2 handed skills, but you haven't put out any discussion with other skills against skills in their respect skill lines.

If you want to talk about Ambush.. great.. let's compare it to other skills in the Assassination line. Ambush is 1 of 2 damaging attacks in that skill line. Assassin's Blade quickly becomes the favorable to spam once your target is low on health due to it scaling up it's damage by 300%. Ambush is to get you to your target and Assassin's Blade is to finish off your target once you deal enough damage to it. You aren't going to spam just Ambush unless you're terrible. It's situational. It's a gap closer. Assassin's Blade quickly out scales Ambush's damage due to it being a finisher.. but you can't spam Assassin's Blade because at the start of the fight you are wasting magicka with it.

Impulse... fine... compare it to destruction staff skills. Impluse requires you to get into melee range. It's the only skill in the tree line that has that kind of trade off for the damage it does. It's not the only useful skill in the tree line. Destructive Reach has amazing CC. Wall of Elements can be lackluster.. unless you are a Sorc running a Critical Surge build and each damage tick can crit giving you HP. It's not amazing in PvP, but useful in PvE. Force Shock comes off as terrible, but with a lightning staff you have a debuff a targets damage by 10%... not bad.

darkdruidssb14_ESO

Let's not forget that your whole discussion started off debating a gap closer with a stun... that doesn't have a stun. It is literally just a gap closer that does decent damage and is spammable.

The next ability you mentioned had a stun... did less damage and a cast time. You were confused as to how that was balanced with an ability that was a gap closer with a stun.. but didn't actually have a stun.

This whole balance thread was started talking about imbalances that didn't exist.

Call me a troll if you want, but it's not my fault your thread doesn't have anything constructive going for it. It didn't start with anything constructive to begin with.

Lionxoft

darkdruidssb14_ESO wrote: »

Let's not forget that your whole discussion started off debating a gap closer with a stun... that doesn't have a stun. It is literally just a gap closer that does decent damage and is spammable.

The next ability you mentioned had a stun... did less damage and a cast time. You were confused as to how that was balanced with an ability that was a gap closer with a stun.. but didn't actually have a stun.

This whole balance thread was started talking about imbalances that didn't exist.

Call me a troll if you want, but it's not my fault your thread doesn't have anything constructive going for it. It didn't start with anything constructive to begin with.

So you believe that combat in ESO is active and requires situational awareness via a very diverse mix of abilities that synergize off of each other?

darkdruidssb14_ESO

Lionxoft wrote: »

So you believe that combat in ESO is active and requires situational awareness via a very diverse mix of abilities that synergize off of each other?

I believe that it's fairly active and diverse, yes. There is a lot to combat other than spamming skills at someone for a kill. Knowing when to block or interrupt someone can be a game changer in a 1v1. Knowing what skills can counter other "OP" skills in live combat is situational awareness. Knowing the strengths and weaknesses of your build relative to your enemy is situational awareness.

The problem is that you have a lot of people running cookie cutter OP builds and you have even more people that lack the understanding of how to handle those builds.

Are their issues with ESO? Of course! Impulse is a good candidate to have a cost increase the more it's spammed like they did to Bolt Escape. Do I think that should apply to Critical Charge? No, it's not abused anywhere close to the degree that Impulse is and it's not nearly as effective.

I also think that Fighter's Guild needs to be disabled if you choose to go Werewolf or Vampire. Being able to be the best of both is not good design in my opinion... I also think that Fighter's Guild skills could use another pass and make some of them more effective at what they are intended to do. It should be realistic to pick up Fighter's Guild and have Werewolf/Vamps fear you... other than just the off chance you might proc Banish.

EDIT
I say this because currently the best counter to vampires is rolling a dark elf dragon knight... maxing out Fighter's Guild and then going Vampire.. with Fire resistance glyphs. I think that is a little broken.