Economics and Guild Cronyism in ESO

gamerlucretiusb14_ESO

I wrote an article a few days ago about economics in ESO. I've outlined what I think the strengths are of the economic system in ESO, and what some of the drawbacks are.

tldr: The only thing wrong with the economic system is that trade guilds are exploiting most of their guild members.

http://gamerlucretius.blogspot.com/2014/09/economics-in-elder-scrolls-online.html

Liquid_Time

Ah crud.. You figured out my guilds plot. I mean we were just getting so much gold from those sells that I couldn't resist.

I don't own a guild.

gamerlucretiusb14_ESO

It's not the sales, it's these "fund raising events" that a lot of trade guilds are using to raise gold to bid on guild trader locations. Generally they never report to the guild how much they ended up paying, and then just pocket the excess.

ThePonzzz

While I see how you've outlined the economics in ESO, one crucial thing missing is the need to strive for a better market. ESO doesn't have that. There isn't a whole lot of need to really go into great lengths to promote a robust economy as things stand.

A single player can achieve most things very rapidly in this game. There are no markets to really dominate in, as a player. I can't capsize the blacksmithing market at any time. Any single player can eventually craft their own items. Gear drops are about 90% BoE, so there are no ROIs available to a player. Once you purchase and equip, the item is useless.

The Trade Guild system doesn't offer much in terms of variety. A 500 member guild can still lose out on high traffic areas for a week, stunting sales. You can't quickly adjust sales prices to beat competitors, you have to take a loss if you wish to do that, and the amounts are so marginal when it comes to certain items, it's hard to have an edge.

But what uses do gold have? Repair equipment, an ongoing gold sink. Bag space and bank space, capped at a certain point, with bank space being a severe gold sink. Re-spec costs. Everything else is either for ease of not having to farm, or for quick gains. I can spend an hour and get a stack of raw ore, for what, 1500g? Maybe 2000g? My only buyers are people who don't want to do it themselves. Currently that is plentiful as long as you keep your prices low.

Then there are one off purchases. Motifs and recipes. Again, the only reason to purchase these items is if you need to feel as a completionist. Recipes have a very low ROI, and you have to hustle. Two out of the three purple recipes require hireling-only ingredients, so you're limited with dominating the market with food (or drink). But a blue recipe does the trick for most anyone, which are saturated in the guilds. I can't even give away fortified sweetroll recipes.

So yeah, you can compare to other MMOs. I'm not a WoW player, nor have I been. But I don't think we really have a sustainable economy that supports players in any way. What we have is a game world that is saturated with items we can never sell or profit from.

GnatB

Bleh, flatlining for things that aren't scarce is fine. Not sure what you mean by "artificial scarcity" other than creating some funky sounding term to make it seem like they somehow should be scarce, and thus not be cheap.

But you're wrong. They should be. If the devs really wanted to make them really honest to gosh scarce it would be easy. Instead of 3 items per harvest you get 1. Presto. 1/3rd as many in the world. Instead of 15 minute respawn rates (or whatever) you do 45 minute respawn. Presto. 1/3rd as many in the coming into the world.

If they wanted to make them rarer and thus worth more. They have all the knobs at their disposal to turn and actually do that.


In regards to the idea of guild leaders "embezzling". I'll admit, until I read this post I assumed the only thing you could spend guild funds on was designing tabards and hiring vendors. I assumed the guild leadership simply *couldn't* withdraw gold. There's no real reason to allow such functionality, as all it would really be *is* embezzling. (heck, to be honest, I didn't particularly care what was done with the guild gold. So far none of the trade guilds I'm in have ever once asked for donations, so the only thing going into the guild coffers from me are the store fees, and I guess better there than being destroyed like in most MMO auction houses. Several of them have also done a fairly good job of keeping active vendors.)

david271749

gamerlucretiusb14_ESO wrote: »

It's not the sales, it's these "fund raising events" that a lot of trade guilds are using to raise gold to bid on guild trader locations. Generally they never report to the guild how much they ended up paying, and then just pocket the excess.

Or you could just check bank history... It includes kiosk bids.

-1 for use of the word "cronyism."

Edit:
Please lay off the Alex Jones videos for a bit. It might do you some good.

gamerlucretiusb14_ESO

Or you could just check bank history... It includes kiosk bids.

Seeing the transactions doesn't help players understand what those withdraws are being used for.

Also, most players are restricted from withdrawing gold from the bank, while the inner circle does what it pleases.

gamerlucretiusb14_ESO

GnatB wrote: »

So far none of the trade guilds I'm in have ever once asked for donations, so the only thing going into the guild coffers from me are the store fees, and I guess better there than being destroyed like in most MMO auction houses. Several of them have also done a fairly good job of keeping active vendors.)

Yea its obviously not all bad, just watch out for these "fund raising events" to gain popularity. Most common form is a 50/50 winner / guild bank raffle.

gamerlucretiusb14_ESO

ThePonzzz wrote: »

Two out of the three purple recipes require hireling-only ingredients, so you're limited with dominating the market with food (or drink).

Now that the game has been out a while, there are a growing number of players with multiple alts using them as mules to increase what they can receive from hirelings.

It's not really a problem per say, but this limitation is artificial.

gamerlucretiusb14_ESO

GnatB wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by "artificial scarcity" other than creating some funky sounding term to make it seem like they somehow should be scarce, and thus not be cheap.

Scarcity is a staple in the economics lexicon, it just speaks to the fact that physical goods do not exist in infinite amounts.

Its not that it "should be" scarce, but that resources are scarce... and that in video games this anomoly is a difference... but since markets exist in both virtual reality... and plain ole reality... pointing out this difference and how it impacts how markets function is something I felt like writing about.

GnatB

So, what you're trying to say is artifical *lack* of scarcity?

david271749

gamerlucretiusb14_ESO wrote: »

Or you could just check bank history... It includes kiosk bids.

Seeing the transactions doesn't help players understand what those withdraws are being used for.

Also, most players are restricted from withdrawing gold from the bank, while the inner circle does what it pleases.

It literally tells you who bid what on which kiosk. It doesn't show up as a withdrawl. If someone is withdrawing money from a guild bank, they're not using it for a kiosk. Bids are made directly from the guild bank gold. There's nothing ambiguous about it.

If players are withdrawing gold, just take your business to a more trustworthy guild. It's not that difficult of a concept.

dodgehopper_ESO

If you made alchemical materials have a terrible respawn, it would all but ruin potions. It would also adversely effect a whole class (Nightblade) that is meant to rely on them. I think this would be a bad idea.

gamerlucretiusb14_ESO

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

If you made alchemical materials have a terrible respawn, it would all but ruin potions. It would also adversely effect a whole class (Nightblade) that is meant to rely on them. I think this would be a bad idea.

Well...
1) I'm not advocating limiting alchemical materials, the market there is fairly stable, without being flat-lined. On a per-flower basis.

2) It wouldn't "ruin potions" it would require players to use their resources more wisely... instead of just spamming pots.

As a nightblade, I agree it would make playing a nightblade a lot more difficult.

DenverRalphy

gamerlucretiusb14_ESO wrote: »

It's not the sales, it's these "fund raising events" that a lot of trade guilds are using to raise gold to bid on guild trader locations. Generally they never report to the guild how much they ended up paying, and then just pocket the excess.

There's an easy way to tell if the guild is pocketing your money...

Look at the Guild Bank history. Bids on kiosks don't show up in the withdrawal history. So if somebody is withdrawing large sums, without any obvious displays of recompense, then you know they're taking you to the cleaners.

So if your guild leaders/officers withdraw 200k, and after you ask why they claim it was for a kiosk... Then you know they're full of shinola.

Though it would be nice if bids showed up in the guild history. If the bid was 2 million, chances are they way over bid and are just throwing money away.

Vahrokh

ThePonzzz wrote: »

So yeah, you can compare to other MMOs. I'm not a WoW player, nor have I been. But I don't think we really have a sustainable economy that supports players in any way. What we have is a game world that is saturated with items we can never sell or profit from.

I think I have made more than 1 million with those items I can never sell or profit from. Maybe I am playing wrong.

ThePonzzz

Vahrokh wrote: »

ThePonzzz wrote: »

So yeah, you can compare to other MMOs. I'm not a WoW player, nor have I been. But I don't think we really have a sustainable economy that supports players in any way. What we have is a game world that is saturated with items we can never sell or profit from.

I think I have made more than 1 million with those items I can never sell or profit from. Maybe I am playing wrong.

Oh, you're selling green BoE, regular drops, and looted 0g items to other players? Color me shocked! Because that's the scope of what the game is filled with.

Recipes and motifs will continue to sell, but they will continue to be a one-off item. Materials will continue to sell, but they are not a very good investment of your time.

Vahrokh

ThePonzzz wrote: »

Recipes and motifs will continue to sell, but they will continue to be a one-off item. Materials will continue to sell, but they are not a very good investment of your time.

You have to know who buys the recipes (even the blue ones), you have to know which motifs are worth selling and who wants to buy those materials.

Sure, if you are going to sell at 1300 per stack because that's what they say in the zone chat, you are going nowhere. I sell stacks for 3.7k+ and the few times I don't find buyers I can refine them and get yellow components each worth 3.5k+ and assorted purples.

hiyde

Bids *DO* show up in the guild history and so does what was actually paid. This has *always* been true.

The other, legitimate reason for a Guild Leader/Officer to withdraw funds is to pay for contesting.

For instance, we do 50/50 raffles in our guild. Part of it helps support our bid (if sales tax doesn't fully cover), part of it pays contest winners and the rest sits in the bank for future use.

Yes, skimming happens. (I've seen 5am stealth-withdrawals) But there are also plenty of honest guilds out there who would never dream of taking a single gold from the bank beyond what I outlined above.

We post a PDF every week of every single contest entry. (aka raffle tickets) and then we do the draws live on a public website where anyone can watch as it happens.

Also, it was mentioned that any unused funds should go back to depositors - which would rule out ability to contest and save up for a 'better location' in the future.

One thing that would be nice? the ability to place a 'memo' on any withdrawal so guild management could specify EXACTLY why they pulled the funds out.

If you don't trust your guild management, perhaps reconsider your guild. We aim to be 100% transparent with ours and I know many others do as well.

-H

Iorail

gamerlucretiusb14_ESO wrote: »

Or you could just check bank history... It includes kiosk bids.

Seeing the transactions doesn't help players understand what those withdraws are being used for.

Also, most players are restricted from withdrawing gold from the bank, while the inner circle does what it pleases.

Bids on kiosk show in the guild bank history, with the name of the person that placed the bid and the amount. Also if the bid is won and what trader, but if the bid is lost, nothing shows in the history but the money is return to the balance. Personal withdraws, or people taking money out, also shows just like that, don't see the issue you are referring to. On my trading guild only 3 people can place bids (withdraw gold) because opening this to everyone is just asking for the bank to be wiped completely, so only me and 2 others are fully trusted on the task and we haven't lost 1 gold.

If you are on a guild that is actually taking the money, then leave that guild and use word of mouth to warn others, this is a mega server after all and reputation goes a long way. But don't try to say all guilds do this or is some kind of scam, because most of the good trading guilds won't even ask people for donations and we still bid and maintain a good trader spots completely out of the taxes collected, like my trading guild.... Time to find a better circle of people to hang around is the only advice I can give you. Also get the correct information on how all this works before you make claims or post like this one, please.

TagaParti

im one of those players who believed that gold is a strength in any game, so making gold will give you all you need to have an advantage over others. all i did are things how to get lots of golds, so many ways to do it. Now I have lots of golds, for legendary armors and weapons with legendary glyphs, different kinds if builds, potions, name it and I can have it. It is expensive tho, soI have to continue making golds, but I notice the game's economy is dying. Lots of people are getting to max level evryday, getting max items everyday, and whenthey reached that stage, they stop purchasing things. Harvesters and crafters will continue to do their things, but it will only make the supply at a higher rate as time pass by, the demand will go down. Now, upgrade mats are getting cheaper and cheaper. The game might need another level cap at some point in the future, better gold sink, higher decay rate. The truth is, to sustain a stable economy, gold should be sinking as fast as we can acquire it.
A game so easy to get anythingu want would not be so good in the long run.

DigitalHype

david271749 wrote: »

It literally tells you who bid what on which kiosk. It doesn't show up as a withdrawl. If someone is withdrawing money from a guild bank, they're not using it for a kiosk. Bids are made directly from the guild bank gold. There's nothing ambiguous about it.

If players are withdrawing gold, just take your business to a more trustworthy guild. It's not that difficult of a concept.

Too late. The damage is done. There is a constant supply of new and uniformed players that are being taken advantage of. This model relies purely on trust. That doesn't work well, when you have no reliable method of tracking reputation. Doing so is nearly impossible when guild membership, and leadership is in a constant state of flux.

david271749

DigitalHype wrote: »

david271749 wrote: »

It literally tells you who bid what on which kiosk. It doesn't show up as a withdrawl. If someone is withdrawing money from a guild bank, they're not using it for a kiosk. Bids are made directly from the guild bank gold. There's nothing ambiguous about it.

If players are withdrawing gold, just take your business to a more trustworthy guild. It's not that difficult of a concept.

Too late. The damage is done. There is a constant supply of new and uniformed players that are being taken advantage of. This model relies purely on trust. That doesn't work well, when you have no reliable method of tracking reputation. Doing so is nearly impossible when guild membership, and leadership is in a constant state of flux.

Try one of the mmos with reputation trackers then. Let me know when you find one.

bertenburnyb16_ESO

I'm member of 3 big (near full) trading guilds, 1 even has a trader up in Craglorn, and have never been approached to make donations for guild trader purchase, nor would I ever contribute.
the fact is this, the bigger and better selling the guild is, the more income they get from sales, which in turn they can spend on guild traders, so in this way the best selling guilds will have the most cash and thus the best trading spots.
why I dont contribute, is since the guild already gets a cut for every sale, if they want more money, they should recrute more active players and kick inactive players (which can stack up fast), sales will go up, and eventually they will be able to buy better trader spots
what I have seen is a guild lottery, where a part of the winnings goes to the guild bank to help supplement the cash for traders, but its purely voluntarily.

DigitalHype

david271749 wrote: »

Try one of the mmos with reputation trackers then. Let me know when you find one.

You missed the point. It isn't needed for most most mmos. Because, they are typically global. Or at least, much larger than this 500 player experiment.

And, we do not need to track individual seller's reputation. These are real/analog goods. They are what is advertised.

In a global mmo market, there are aren't people demanding other people to pay him/her in order to trade in their circles. A newcomer to the market has no way to know if the marketplace they are investing in going to exploit them. And, no indicators if the folks operating it have a reputation for doing so or not. There is no regulation of all these "in-flux" marketplaces.

The point is this fragmented model is fostering a new form of exploitation, in the form of "fees", that may or may not accurately represent the cost. And "incentives" that may or may not actually pay out.

hiyde

While improvements can be made, again I'd have to say that I believe the overwhelming majority of Guild Leadership are doing it for the right reasons and aren't stealing anyone's money.

And let's not forget, the following is easily searchable public info to every guild member:

- Every Deposit
- Every Withdrawl
- Every Guild Trader Bid (there can be several bids on the same trader over the week)
- Exact price of the successful bid.

One thing I'd love to add is a 'memo' field on any withdrawal. And I'm sure there are more things that could create more transparency.

But the guild members have some responsibility as well. Is your guild asking for 5,000/week in dues (potentially 2.5 Million from 500 players) and then bidding 200,000 on the Kiosk? (this is a real example btw). What's happening to the other 2.3 Million gold? (and the sales taxes?) If you don't like, or don't know the answer, why are you in that guild?

In our guild, we aim to have sales taxes cover the bid (sometimes they do, sometimes they don't).

We have no 'fees'.

We run weekly contests, including 50/50 raffles. Every entry is documented in a spreadsheet, posted on our website and the rolls (drawings) happen in a public chat room. Any interested or concerned member can easily validate our contests.

At the end of the contest, remaining funds are deposited into the Guild Bank. To date, we've never made a single withdraw of gold from our bank other than the Guild Trader fee auto-withdrawal.

Over time, we've built up over 1,000,000G cushion. We're holding a chunk of it in case we'd like to hang in Rawl for a week, as well as a few week's worth of bids in the bank for our current location.

The rest? We're giving back to members this week for 'Guild Appreciation' Week in which we are NOT asking for any contest gold.

We aren't the only guild like this. Yes, there are some guilds where leadership is building personal wealth but I think those are the exception, not the rule. (Frankly, I believe there are far easier and less stressful ways to build gold if that's the goal). There are also guilds where members DO NOT MIND leadership taking a personal cut because they appreciate a well run, 'high end' store. (Personally I don't believe in this, but if the people involved are OK with it, who am I to judge?)

Some small tweaks? Sure. But I believe enough transparency is built into the system that any member can get a feel for what's going on (good or bad).

-H

DigitalHype

Hiyde, you appear sincere. You report measures to be transparent about guild transactions. But, I think you are proving my point. Not excited about reading a plug for your guild in the forums threads.

"Tired of being ripped off by those other guys, try our <insert special recipe> here."

If you or someone in your leadership is being deceitful it is too late for those that participated in your guild's 'raffle' in order to be part of your trade group. If someone in leadership goes awol with the 1Mil "cushion", it is too simple to "rinse/repeat".

hiyde

DigitalHype wrote: »

Hiyde, you appear sincere. You report measures to be transparent about guild transactions. But, I think you are proving my point. Not excited about reading a plug for your guild in the forums threads.

"Tired of being ripped off by those other guys, try our <insert special recipe> here."

If you or someone in your leadership is being deceitful it is too late for those that participated in your guild's 'raffle' in order to be part of your trade group. If someone in leadership goes awol with the 1Mil "cushion", it is too simple to "rinse/repeat".

My guild is full - I'm not posting in this thread to recruit, I'm trying to take part in the conversation and caution those who are painting with a broad brush.

And no, when I'm promoting my guild to replace inactives, I focus on the positives of our guild, not the negatives of others.

My belief is that this is being blown way out of proportion. Any guild member who's interested in guild finances has tools available. If it doesn't smell right, there are other guilds out there.

There are all types of approaches to running guilds, some charge fees (and clearly make a profit) and the members are *fine* with that because they don't mind leadership making some income for all of the work they put into making a guild successful.

There are guilds who do zero fundraising and they let sales cover the kiosk.

There are guilds that do contesting and are very transparent about where the money goes.

Lots..and Lots..of choices. Pick the type that works for you.

I'd rather have it this way than highly restrictive rules being put in place for how gold contributed by guild members can be used by leadership.

DigitalHype

hiyde wrote: »

Lots..and Lots..of choices. Pick the type that works for you.

That is my point. New "investors" pick one, and make the wrong choice, because they don't know the reputation of the guild. And the reputation is too transient. Not a big deal or major loss for the individual. But, as a whole, this model is an opportunity for bad actors to take advantage, with little to no repercussions. The folks that get burned, quickly learn, and leave that guild. But, it doesn't create a disincentive for the people gaming the system, and taking advantage of the next guy.

JamilaRaj

gamerlucretiusb14_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

If you made alchemical materials have a terrible respawn, it would all but ruin potions. It would also adversely effect a whole class (Nightblade) that is meant to rely on them. I think this would be a bad idea.

Well...
1) I'm not advocating limiting alchemical materials, the market there is fairly stable, without being flat-lined. On a per-flower basis.

2) It wouldn't "ruin potions" it would require players to use their resources more wisely... instead of just spamming pots.

As a nightblade, I agree it would make playing a nightblade a lot more difficult.

If potions were harder to get, it would not require players to use them wisely instead of spamming. Potions would be spammed anyway and it would not be wise players which would be able to outspam the rest, but players with most time available for farming potions directly or indirectly via farming something else for trade. Unless resources/potions were rationed or players had limit on how many potions they can suck up per day.

TagaParti wrote: »

im one of those players who believed that gold is a strength in any game, so making gold will give you all you need to have an advantage over others. all i did are things how to get lots of golds, so many ways to do it. Now I have lots of golds, for legendary armors and weapons with legendary glyphs, different kinds if builds, potions, name it and I can have it. It is expensive tho, soI have to continue making golds, but I notice the game's economy is dying. Lots of people are getting to max level evryday, getting max items everyday, and whenthey reached that stage, they stop purchasing things. Harvesters and crafters will continue to do their things, but it will only make the supply at a higher rate as time pass by, the demand will go down. Now, upgrade mats are getting cheaper and cheaper. The game might need another level cap at some point in the future, better gold sink, higher decay rate. The truth is, to sustain a stable economy, gold should be sinking as fast as we can acquire it.
A game so easy to get anythingu want would not be so good in the long run.

If you play just to get gear for the sake of having it, then yes, the game where gear is relatively easy to get and only minor differences exist between items X and X+1 will not entertain you for long. On the other hand, other type of achievers have a lot to do, while precisely thanks to that very same design principle PvP stands out.
Just philosophical note: I would not call economy that actually manages to satisfy everyone's material needs exactly dying.

Slurg

hiyde wrote: »

While improvements can be made, again I'd have to say that I believe the overwhelming majority of Guild Leadership are doing it for the right reasons and aren't stealing anyone's money.

And let's not forget, the following is easily searchable public info to every guild member:

- Every Deposit
- Every Withdrawl
- Every Guild Trader Bid (there can be several bids on the same trader over the week)
- Exact price of the successful bid.

One thing I'd love to add is a 'memo' field on any withdrawal. And I'm sure there are more things that could create more transparency.

@hiyde, I appreciate your willingness to be transparent. It appears you may in the minority though. According to this thread, being able to see the trader bid is a bug that is going away, and other guild leaders want that lack of transparency because they think their guild members are spies:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/133954/guild-trader-limit-who-can-see-bids-by-rank