Maths says shadow stone > Thief stone for dps.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

Thief stone - 7 piece purple divines + other gear - 65.2% crit chance.
Crits deal 155% Damage (Nightblade passive)
Assume 1000 hits of 100 damage - Assume also that 652 of these hits critically strike - on average this will be true.
Critical strikes deal 55 bonus damage
Net result is 1000*100+652*55 = 135860

Shadow stone - 7 piece purple divines + same gear as previous scenario - 58% Crit chance.
Crits Show to deal 72% bonus damage.
Assume 1000 hits of 100 damage - Assume also that 580 of these crit.
Critical strikes deal 72 bonus damage
Net result is 1000*100+580*72 = 141760

Difference after 1000 hits of 5900 damage - this is a 4.3% increase to DPS so not a huge deal, but every little bit counts!

jeremy_higgsrwb17_ESO

by this logic possibly better for a sustained fight (pve bosses perhaps) but when your hits are limited a larger crit rating would likely provide a higher dps output in faster fights (e.g. pvp)

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

jeremy_higgsrwb17_ESO wrote: »

by this logic possibly better for a sustained fight (pve bosses perhaps) but when your hits are limited a larger crit rating would likely provide a higher dps output in faster fights (e.g. pvp)

Only in PVP I'd personally disregard crit chance due to high numbers of players running impenetrable.

Vuron

There are very detailed posts on Tamriel Foundry regarding Thief versus Shadow. IIRC, there is a hard line of about 50% crit chance when Shadow becomes better.

The maths are in those threads.

neiljwd

One thing base DPS number don't account for is any procs that are activated on critical hit.

Beldorr

Checks out! With a baseline of 0% crit, scenerio 1 is 135.86% increase while scenerio 2 is 141.76% increase which is a 4.3% increase. I prefer to use a formula so you can see the breaking points in a spreadsheet.

basedps * (1-Critchance) + (basedps * dmgMultiplier * critChance)

As for the 155% due to nightblade, I pretty sure its 10% critical bonus from hemorrhage. Make sure to put that 2nd point in that talent

Vuron wrote: »

There are very detailed posts on Tamriel Foundry regarding Thief versus Shadow. IIRC, there is a hard line of about 50% crit chance when Shadow becomes better.

The maths are in those threads.

Its not a hardline, increasing Crit or Crit bonus makes the value of the other go up. It just works out that at 150% bonus damage 50% crit is the breakeven point.

For example, at 60% crit and 150% bonus damage. Adding 1% more crit is .5% dps increase while adding 1% bonus damage is worth .6% dps increase. If you had 60% crit and 160% critical bonus, they are equal.

Pmarsico9

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

jeremy_higgsrwb17_ESO wrote: »

by this logic possibly better for a sustained fight (pve bosses perhaps) but when your hits are limited a larger crit rating would likely provide a higher dps output in faster fights (e.g. pvp)

Only in PVP I'd personally disregard crit chance due to high numbers of players running impenetrable.

Damage shields also completely prevent crits.

DuelWieldingCheesyPoofs

what about power stone from warrior mundus ?

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

neiljwd wrote: »

One thing base DPS number don't account for is any procs that are activated on critical hit.

Such as?

inspiral1 wrote: »

what about power stone from warrior mundus ?

I'd use it in PVP, but currently I'm so far overcharged that it'd not offer me any major increase in dps.

Sasky

Interesting that it's a 17% boost to crit bonus but only a 7.2% boost to crit chance. That means the break-even point is when your crit bonus is roughly twice your crit chance for selecting between thief and shadow stones.

PvP is a mixed bag, since you're looking at a wide variety of crit resistances. You're probably better off (for now at least) going with penetration or power stacking rather than relying on crits.

As far as procs on a critical hit, the only one I'm aware of from a pure DPS standpoint is the additional ultimate generation. Amount of healing from critical surge would have a different break-even point.

majinstef

To leave all of math and formulas and calculating out of this...
Thief mundus stone over Shadow mundus stone for DPS

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

majinstef wrote: »

To leave all of math and formulas and calculating out of this...
Thief mundus stone over Shadow mundus stone for DPS

If you want a lower DPS sure why not

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Actualy its a bit more complicated than that, multiple critical multipliers like Hemorrhage and Shadow mundus stone actualy multiply the critical damage portion of an attack by the modified value and not its base.

So if your attack does 200dmg
- base critical value is 200 / 2 = 100
- with one 10% modifier you get (100 x 1.1) / 2 = 110
- with two 10% modifiers you get (100 x 1.1 x 1.1) / 2 = 121

So for instance a critical strike with a base damage value of 200dmg would
- deal 320dmg with a single 20% modifier (which currently does not exist)
- deal 321dmg with two 10% modifiers

Here is a link to a post where I calculated critical damage values :
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/1230176/#Comment_1230176

PBpsy

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Thief stone - 7 piece purple divines + other gear - 65.2% crit chance.
Crits deal 155% Damage (Nightblade passive)
Assume 1000 hits of 100 damage - Assume also that 652 of these hits critically strike - on average this will be true.
Critical strikes deal 55 bonus damage
Net result is 1000*100+652*55 = 135860

Shadow stone - 7 piece purple divines + same gear as previous scenario - 58% Crit chance.
Crits Show to deal 72% bonus damage.
Assume 1000 hits of 100 damage - Assume also that 580 of these crit.
Critical strikes deal 72 bonus damage
Net result is 1000*100+580*72 = 141760

Difference after 1000 hits of 5900 damage - this is a 4.3% increase to DPS so not a huge deal, but every little bit counts!

Only problem you have is that you have neglected to include the amount of damage you gain from using 7 infused with magicka or stamina and the sustain would you have gained from having more resources. The math is not that simple since what maters in the end is dps which is a result of sustain,rotation and synergies and ultimate use efficiency which is not reflected by your calculations.

Even with the really simple calculation ,say you get just 4 more damage per attack from going infused.

1000*104+652*104*0.55 = 141294
If we also get maybe 10 more hits from more resources. I would say it would be actually 5% more attacks with 20% more resources from infused gear.
1010*104+(0.652*1010)*(104*0.55)=142707
1050*104+(0.652*1050)*(104*0.55)=148359

This is only the begging since we do not consider ultimate gains or critical heals which are pretty important for NBs.

Going for divines+ Shadow really makes sense only if you are going for one of the builds that always crits no mater the crit rating like the Streak stealth 2H sorc. Otherwise both divines and shadow are pretty bad.

Sasky

I don't think this was intended to be a look at total DPS but a focused look at crit chance VS crit damage. Sure, perhaps it could use with some sensitivity analysis with number of pieces at divines. You have tons of factors going into total DPS, that it's generally good to break it down into A vs B tests and consider all other factors equal.

The difference in ultimate generation is negligible. If we assume each crit kicks it up a damage tier (not likely on a boss) in addition to the direct 1 ultimate per hit, you're only looking at 14 ultimate per 100 hits.

DPS sustain isn't going to depend on the max stat primarily. It's more dependent on your recovery and anything active you do to get the resource back (heavy attacks, equilibrium, dark exchange, restoring aura, etc). As well, you have to consider skill cost, efficiency of light attack weaving, down time for movement, etc. The variables keep piling up, so it's much more difficult to design an A vs B.

PBpsy wrote: »

Even with the really simple calculation ,say you get just 4 more damage per attack from going infused.

You will get a boost to your maximum DPS by increasing your pool with infused -- but you need to consider the numbers. On a small piece, you're looking at around +9 to mag/stam from infused, but only around +4 if you're above softcap.

As far as the math... It doesn't make sense to add to the number of attacks. MouseKime selected 1000 hits to make it a nice round number yet make it easy to convert into a percentage. As well, you didn't take into account the lost % crit chance in your formula.

PBpsy wrote: »

Going for divines+ Shadow really makes sense only if you are going for one of the builds that always crits no mater the crit rating like the Streak stealth 2H sorc. Otherwise both divines and shadow are pretty bad.

When looking at full divines, you get better DPS boost from shadow when compared to divines unless your crit damage is roughly 2x.

Math:

Damage: base*(1 + c*b)
base = base attack damage.
c = crit strike chance
b = crit strike bonus

Compare adding x CritChance% to adding y CritDmg%

base*(1 + (c+x)*b) = base*(1 + c*(b+y))
Cancel base and the one:
b(c+x) = c(b+y)
bc + bx = bc + cy
bx = cy
b/c = y/x

Filling in Kime's numbers from above,
x = 7.2, y = 17

b/c = 17/7.2
b/c = 2.361

So as long as your current bonus damage is 2.36 times as high as you current crit chance, the shadow is more beneficial than the thief (assuming full divines).

Fill in the non-divines (or partial divines) if you want to see the break-even point there.

PBpsy

Sasky wrote: »

I don't think this was intended to be a look at total DPS but a focused look at crit chance VS crit damage. Sure, perhaps it could use with some sensitivity analysis with number of pieces at divines. You have tons of factors going into total DPS, that it's generally good to break it down into A vs B tests and consider all other factors equal.

The difference in ultimate generation is negligible. If we assume each crit kicks it up a damage tier (not likely on a boss) in addition to the direct 1 ultimate per hit, you're only looking at 14 ultimate per 100 hits.

DPS sustain isn't going to depend on the max stat primarily. It's more dependent on your recovery and anything active you do to get the resource back (heavy attacks, equilibrium, dark exchange, restoring aura, etc). As well, you have to consider skill cost, efficiency of light attack weaving, down time for movement, etc. The variables keep piling up, so it's much more difficult to design an A vs B.

PBpsy wrote: »

Even with the really simple calculation ,say you get just 4 more damage per attack from going infused.

You will get a boost to your maximum DPS by increasing your pool with infused -- but you need to consider the numbers. On a small piece, you're looking at around +9 to mag/stam from infused, but only around +4 if you're above softcap.

As far as the math... It doesn't make sense to add to the number of attacks. MouseKime selected 1000 hits to make it a nice round number yet make it easy to convert into a percentage. As well, you didn't take into account the lost % crit chance in your formula.

PBpsy wrote: »

Going for divines+ Shadow really makes sense only if you are going for one of the builds that always crits no mater the crit rating like the Streak stealth 2H sorc. Otherwise both divines and shadow are pretty bad.

When looking at full divines, you get better DPS boost from shadow when compared to divines unless your crit damage is roughly 2x.

Math:

Damage: base*(1 + c*b)
base = base attack damage.
c = crit strike chance
b = crit strike bonus

Compare adding x CritChance% to adding y CritDmg%

base*(1 + (c+x)*b) = base*(1 + c*(b+y))
Cancel base and the one:
b(c+x) = c(b+y)
bc + bx = bc + cy
bx = cy
b/c = y/x

Filling in Kime's numbers from above,
x = 7.2, y = 17

b/c = 17/7.2
b/c = 2.361

So as long as your current bonus damage is 2.36 times as high as you current crit chance, the shadow is more beneficial than the thief (assuming full divines).

Fill in the non-divines (or partial divines) if you want to see the break-even point there.

After some more thinking I am beginning to agree on the potential DPS increase and I will probably try it on my next set. I do believe that the simplified model that you are using may overestimate the actual difference between Shadow and Thief though and the actual difference may be very slight.

In terms of ultimate gains for crit it may depend on the build and type of battle you are in. I use Siphoning Destro/ Resto NB for pve and I have a lot AOE,DOTs,and HOTs so 100 hits is something that happens very fast. I notice the difference in how fast I can use my ultimate even with small changes in crit chance.This is kind of my main reason I use the extra crit.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

PBpsy wrote: »

Sasky wrote: »

I don't think this was intended to be a look at total DPS but a focused look at crit chance VS crit damage. Sure, perhaps it could use with some sensitivity analysis with number of pieces at divines. You have tons of factors going into total DPS, that it's generally good to break it down into A vs B tests and consider all other factors equal.

The difference in ultimate generation is negligible. If we assume each crit kicks it up a damage tier (not likely on a boss) in addition to the direct 1 ultimate per hit, you're only looking at 14 ultimate per 100 hits.

DPS sustain isn't going to depend on the max stat primarily. It's more dependent on your recovery and anything active you do to get the resource back (heavy attacks, equilibrium, dark exchange, restoring aura, etc). As well, you have to consider skill cost, efficiency of light attack weaving, down time for movement, etc. The variables keep piling up, so it's much more difficult to design an A vs B.

PBpsy wrote: »

Even with the really simple calculation ,say you get just 4 more damage per attack from going infused.

You will get a boost to your maximum DPS by increasing your pool with infused -- but you need to consider the numbers. On a small piece, you're looking at around +9 to mag/stam from infused, but only around +4 if you're above softcap.

As far as the math... It doesn't make sense to add to the number of attacks. MouseKime selected 1000 hits to make it a nice round number yet make it easy to convert into a percentage. As well, you didn't take into account the lost % crit chance in your formula.

PBpsy wrote: »

Going for divines+ Shadow really makes sense only if you are going for one of the builds that always crits no mater the crit rating like the Streak stealth 2H sorc. Otherwise both divines and shadow are pretty bad.

When looking at full divines, you get better DPS boost from shadow when compared to divines unless your crit damage is roughly 2x.

Math:

Damage: base*(1 + c*b)
base = base attack damage.
c = crit strike chance
b = crit strike bonus

Compare adding x CritChance% to adding y CritDmg%

base*(1 + (c+x)*b) = base*(1 + c*(b+y))
Cancel base and the one:
b(c+x) = c(b+y)
bc + bx = bc + cy
bx = cy
b/c = y/x

Filling in Kime's numbers from above,
x = 7.2, y = 17

b/c = 17/7.2
b/c = 2.361

So as long as your current bonus damage is 2.36 times as high as you current crit chance, the shadow is more beneficial than the thief (assuming full divines).

Fill in the non-divines (or partial divines) if you want to see the break-even point there.

After some more thinking I am beginning to agree on the potential DPS increase and I will probably try it on my next set. I do believe that the simplified model that you are using may overestimate the actual difference between Shadow and Thief though and the actual difference may be very slight.

In terms of ultimate gains for crit it may depend on the build and type of battle you are in. I use Siphoning Destro/ Resto NB for pve and I have a lot AOE,DOTs,and HOTs so 100 hits is something that happens very fast. I notice the difference in how fast I can use my ultimate even with small changes in crit chance.This is kind of my main reason I use the extra crit.

The only ultimates I know of that really increase your dps with frequent use are standard of might, assassinate and crescent sweep. I honestly use flawless dawn breaker - which is also fantastic with desto staff dps - a flat 13% increase in dps if you're focusing on weapon abilities (crushing shock spam/pulsar spam not withstanding)

neiljwd

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

neiljwd wrote: »

One thing base DPS number don't account for is any procs that are activated on critical hit.

Such as?

Just Critical Surge as a Sorc that I know of. Pretty Important part of those builds, don't know other classes.

Also Night Mothers Gaze Set piece, reduces armour on crit attacks.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

neiljwd wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

neiljwd wrote: »

One thing base DPS number don't account for is any procs that are activated on critical hit.

Such as?

Just Critical Surge as a Sorc that I know of. Pretty Important part of those builds, don't know other classes.

Also Night Mothers Gaze Set piece, reduces armour on crit attacks.

Critical surge being based off of a % damage that your crits do. You want a maximum % of your damage over a fight to come from crits, irrespective of chance, thus having a greater dps with crit damage relative to chance means greater healing with crit damage relative to chance.

As far as NMG is concerned, the debuff lasts for five seconds, if you have a crit based build that doesn't crit at LEAST once every five seconds, something is terribly wrong.

jeeves3krwb17_ESO

Ultimate generation is also important for dks due to the lovely lovey resource
regen it gives.

additionally nbs with veil and sorcs with storm atros like to keep their ultimates down 100% for the dps boost

for that reason, I always push thief over shadow for my dk but have yet to test on my sorc.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

The ultimate generation is a good point but in aoe fights 60% crit is plenty to keep ult up constantly, in single target bosses you'll normally be more concerned with timing your ults as generation of ult is reduced.

stevenskeens_ESO

where are you getting this 72% bonus damage figure,the shadow only increases crit damage by 5%

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

stevenskeens_ESO wrote: »

where are you getting this 72% bonus damage figure,the shadow only increases crit damage by 5%

I was directly testing in game how much bonus damage I was getting on mobs from crits compared to the damage I was doing normally. This value is normally 50% I was using several means of boosting that figure.