Another plea for a PvE Cyrodiil

Flexar

I know this has been said many times before, but it clearly needs to be said again. We need a PvE Cyrodiil phase. And before any hardcore PvPers lol this post without reading it, they ought to know that the existence of PvE Cyrodiil would benefit them as well.

As it stands, anyone who wants to PvE or RP in Cyrodiil has to risk getting ganked while they mind their own business. This wasn't as much of a problem with the old campaigns, as there were enough for each alliance to have its own dead(ish) campaign where its members could go to enjoy the PvE in Cyrodiil or RP there in relative safety. Not any more. It's nigh impossible to do anything there without getting ganked, especially if you're on your own. Even some other PvErs are bad enough to gank fellow PvErs from other alliances. Shortly before posting this I got ganked twice in the space of five/ten minutes while just trying to do some PvE near Cheydinhal. I know I'm not the only one, as I've talked about similar situations with other players, one of whom got so sick of it she considered quitting the game. It's unfair to force anyone who wants to enjoy the game to decide between grouping up for content that they ought to be able to solo (hmm, that sounds familiar) or having it cut off from them.

A PvE Cyrodiil would also provide opportunities for inter-alliance co-op. This would take away the need to make and grind an alt if you want to play with friends in different alliances.

Now onto why it would benefit PvPers. Even if they are at risk of getting ganked, PvErs are still going to go to Cyrodiil, and they're going to take up space, of which there is a limited amount. That's space that could be occupied by PvPers who would aid in the alliance war. This would also take away from the huge queues that anyone who wants to go to Thornblade and sometimes Haderus has to deal with.

If anyone can think of any more reasons that I haven't listed, please post them.

PS: There is a special place in Hell for players who lurk in Cyrodiil's PvE-focused zones just to gank PvErs, right next to the gold sellers.

Varicite

This didn't need another thread just to kick the same old dead horse some more.

Why not post in one of the other MANY threads that have been posted on this exact same topic?

But hey, I guess since I'm here, I'll throw my vote in for "No.", just like I did w/ all the other threads.

Flexar

Might I ask why it is that you're opposed to a Cyrodiil for PvErs?

Varicite

I feel that it goes against everything that Cyrodiil stands for, which is the Alliance War and the inherent danger that comes w/ traversing contested territory.

Also, literally every other zone in the game is there for PvE-only play. There are some PvE quests and rewards and collectibles in Cyrodiil, and I understand that, and the idea is that these things are to be done w/ the feeling of danger from unexpected attacks.

A PvE-only Cyrodiil undermines this experience entirely, and gives players an extremely easy (as though it weren't already easy enough) way to achieve all of these things w/out any of the intended dangers.

Flexar

I'll admit that you do have a point, but when it comes to the point that you get ganked while trying to talk to a quest-giver and then having to waste ten or so minutes riding back to them only to get ganked again that feeling is undermined and the gameplay becomes tedious and unenjoyable. At the moment it's more of a certainty than a worry. The PvP Cyrodiils would still be there for anyone who wants that threat as they PvE.

Varicite

Flexar wrote: »

I'll admit that you do have a point, but when it comes to the point that you get ganked while trying to talk to a quest-giver and then having to waste ten or so minutes riding back to them only to get ganked again that feeling is undermined and the gameplay becomes tedious and unenjoyable. At the moment it's more of a certainty than a worry. The PvP Cyrodiils would still be there for anyone who wants that threat as they PvE.

I'm certain you realize that in games of this nature, the majority of players will gravitate toward the path of least resistance.

Also, I would argue that being attacked in contested territory by enemy combatants in an unsafe town is a feature, not a problem.

It may be tedious to you, but others (like myself) relish the moments when an impromptu fight occurs.

Again, having easy access to all of the spoils of Cyrodiil w/out any of the dangers completely undermines the Cyrodiil experience and the purpose of those spoils.

There is absolutely nothing in Cyrodiil that is a "must-have", not even achievements as they are more or less completely meaningless. There are more than enough skyshards in the game w/out Cyro to fill out multiple builds and then some.

If you don't enjoy the PvP, then don't go. Players who don't enjoy PvE or grouping don't ask for mob-free versions of Trials and Craglorn so that they can reap all the rewards w/ little to no effort. If they did, I'd be opposed to that as well.

PvE has their endgame. PvP has theirs. They aren't mutually exclusive, but I'm still tired of seeing one camp ask for the other's endgame to be trivialized so they can have all of the benefits w/out any of the "effort".

driosketch

Varicite wrote: »

Also, literally every other zone in the game is there for PvE-only play. There are some PvE quests and rewards and collectibles in Cyrodiil, and I understand that, and the idea is that these things are to be done w/ the feeling of danger from unexpected attacks.

A PvE-only Cyrodiil undermines this experience entirely, and gives players an extremely easy (as though it weren't already easy enough) way to achieve all of these things w/out any of the intended dangers.

The problem I see is this spirit is also detrimental to the story that went into Cyrodiil. And story is one of ESO's high points.

Once early on I was doing quests in Cyrodiil. My alliance controlled most of the map as I recall. So I turn in the quest and find the NPC had three dialogue branches of background. But because I knew I was in a high risk zone I was hurrying through them. Sure enough another player tried gank me.

Now I can accept the heightened risks of the PvE in Cyrodiil if it was a simple affair, but the glimpses of what I've seen, I kind of want a chance to explore it without having to look over my shoulder. Will they add a PvE Cyrodiil later on? Who knows, but I remember similar discussions around adding a non-vet campaign.

Lunerdog

Pve Cyrodiil ?

Fine by me


If I was in Cyrodiil and saw someone handing in a quest I'd think "hey, he's questing, so I'll leave him be".

The next person that came along would gank him, because nasty little people like doing nasty little things and they know full well that if there was a pve Cyrodiil there would be very few opportunities for them to gank people.

And that's the only reason they'll always shout down any one suggesting a pve Cyrodiil, the rest of their twaddle is exactly that, twaddle.

Varicite

Nice job stereotyping every single PvP player who is not yourself.

Because, after all, you are a shining beacon of white knight PvP ethics, and nobody else could possibly act similarly.

Some of us have an old school sense of "honour" even in the games we play, though it may seem like "ganking" to those who simply never want to engage in PvP.

If I see you standing at the quest giver, I'll leave you be. If you're traveling to or from the quest givers, you're fair game.

If you're engaged in a 1v1 fight, I'll probably leave you be, unless your opponent is just severely outmatched.

If it's a melee, then I'll join in.

If I catch you alone, I'll try to engage you in single combat. I don't control what others that I don't know around me do, however. But I try to keep my fights fair, because that's what's fun for me.

If I'm guarding a resource or chokepoint or other strategically valuable location, I'm going to kill you, because that's my "duty" while I'm there.

There are tons of players just like me out there.

I've already stated my reasons for not liking a PvE Cyro, and it wasn't even remotely close to "because I want to gank PvE players handing in quests", so I guess your entire post was just invalidated.

keto3000

@Flexar‌ @Varicite‌ I seems to me that, perhaps, when a player is on a quest, their instance is removed from the PvP instance, so they would be invisible to gankers... Would that be a possible good compromise for both of your point of views? the rewards/dropped loot for a PvE-Cyrodil could be different from those that are hard-earned from having survived in PvP Cyrodil, yet still satisfying to those PvE players.

eNumbra

This is a great idea, if they cut quest rewards in PvE Cyrodiil by 80%.

apostate9

Flexar wrote: »

I know this has been said many times before, but it clearly needs to be said again. We need a PvE Cyrodiil phase. And before any hardcore PvPers lol this post without reading it, they ought to know that the existence of PvE Cyrodiil would benefit them as well.

As it stands, anyone who wants to PvE or RP in Cyrodiil has to risk getting ganked while they mind their own business. This wasn't as much of a problem with the old campaigns, as there were enough for each alliance to have its own dead(ish) campaign where its members could go to enjoy the PvE in Cyrodiil or RP there in relative safety. Not any more. It's nigh impossible to do anything there without getting ganked, especially if you're on your own. Even some other PvErs are bad enough to gank fellow PvErs from other alliances. Shortly before posting this I got ganked twice in the space of five/ten minutes while just trying to do some PvE near Cheydinhal. I know I'm not the only one, as I've talked about similar situations with other players, one of whom got so sick of it she considered quitting the game. It's unfair to force anyone who wants to enjoy the game to decide between grouping up for content that they ought to be able to solo (hmm, that sounds familiar) or having it cut off from them.

A PvE Cyrodiil would also provide opportunities for inter-alliance co-op. This would take away the need to make and grind an alt if you want to play with friends in different alliances.

Now onto why it would benefit PvPers. Even if they are at risk of getting ganked, PvErs are still going to go to Cyrodiil, and they're going to take up space, of which there is a limited amount. That's space that could be occupied by PvPers who would aid in the alliance war. This would also take away from the huge queues that anyone who wants to go to Thornblade and sometimes Haderus has to deal with.

If anyone can think of any more reasons that I haven't listed, please post them.

PS: There is a special place in Hell for players who lurk in Cyrodiil's PvE-focused zones just to gank PvErs, right next to the gold sellers.

No.

dcincali

The buff campaigns are pretty pve friendly.

Flexar

keto3000 wrote: »

@Flexar‌ @Varicite‌ I seems to me that, perhaps, when a player is on a quest, their instance is removed from the PvP instance, so they would be invisible to gankers... Would that be a possible good compromise for both of your point of views? the rewards/dropped loot for a PvE-Cyrodil could be different from those that are hard-earned from having survived in PvP Cyrodil, yet still satisfying to those PvE players.

That would be a great idea, if there were a way to implement it. Since it's entirely possible to have quests in your journal to do later and do some PvP in the meantime, this would mean that anyone who wants to switch between the two either has to keep a clean journal or do or abandon they quests they have before than can PvP.

apostate9 wrote: »

No.

How very articulate. Any reason for that, or are you disagreeing simply for the sake of "eww, people who are not me are trying to enjoy the game in a different way to me"?

keto3000

@Flexar‌ Yes, it could probably work much the same as it does in zones, but I am not tech-savvy, so the mechanics of it are lost to me. Still where there is a will there is a way.

Schmit

I never have trouble when I do PVE content in Cyrodiil, but then again I wouldn't be foolish enough to try to do it on my own. No matter what even if you were able to avoid all the people fighting to control the keeps, you will always have 2 other factions out there that can pop out of the nowhere and attack you at any time. Going alone is not smart ANYTIME in Cyrodiil. If your asking for a Cyrodiil zone where you are unable to attack members of other factions, then I say HELL NO! The only reason I do PVE stuff in Cyrodiil is so that I can enjoy the fun of PVP while I do quests and stuff. The creation of a Cyrodiil where people can quest unmolested would mean I get no kills when I am questing in Cyrodiil.

If you do not want to be involved in PVP combat ever, then your just going to have to stay out of Cyrodiil. Play smart, don't go in alone, and just make good use of stealth. You should be able to clear your PVE content with even a small group.

Shaun98ca2

Flexar wrote: »

keto3000 wrote: »

@Flexar‌ @Varicite‌ I seems to me that, perhaps, when a player is on a quest, their instance is removed from the PvP instance, so they would be invisible to gankers... Would that be a possible good compromise for both of your point of views? the rewards/dropped loot for a PvE-Cyrodil could be different from those that are hard-earned from having survived in PvP Cyrodil, yet still satisfying to those PvE players.

That would be a great idea, if there were a way to implement it. Since it's entirely possible to have quests in your journal to do later and do some PvP in the meantime, this would mean that anyone who wants to switch between the two either has to keep a clean journal or do or abandon they quests they have before than can PvP.

apostate9 wrote: »

No.

How very articulate. Any reason for that, or are you disagreeing simply for the sake of "eww, people who are not me are trying to enjoy the game in a different way to me"?

I guess the answer is if you can have a PVE Cyrodiil then maybe the PVPer should be allowed to hunt you out anywhere in Tamriel and kill you instead.

Cyrodiil is BUILT for PVP so why SHOULD they make a non-pvp version. Half the joy is ganking the people their attempting to NOT pvp.

Your talking a tiny portion of the game dedicated to something you don't like and now we need to change it???? That just doesn't make sense.

Varicite

keto3000 wrote: »

@Flexar‌ @Varicite‌ I seems to me that, perhaps, when a player is on a quest, their instance is removed from the PvP instance, so they would be invisible to gankers... Would that be a possible good compromise for both of your point of views? the rewards/dropped loot for a PvE-Cyrodil could be different from those that are hard-earned from having survived in PvP Cyrodil, yet still satisfying to those PvE players.

I don't agree w/ this at all, as you are still basically getting Cyrodiil w/out any of the danger.

I think a better solution would just be to make quest-givers immune to attack, and make players unattackable while they are speaking to the quest givers.

Aeratus

No, I don't agree with the OP.

First, Cyrodiil PVE is not a full-featured PVE zone. If you were to take away all the PVP activity, the PVE alone does not make it a complete zone. So asking ZOS to make a PVE phase basically forces them to release a half-baked zone.

Second, the thrill of Cyrodiil is that you can get ganked any time. This, to me, is part of the PVE experience there. That is, being ganked is the unique flavor of PVE that is found in Cyrodiil, and taking that away removes the uniqueness.

Third, there are many ways to deal with gankers. Just call a few badasses from your guild to rat out the gankers. Zone chat is also good too. There are lots of high level solo players in Cyrodiil who love to play 1vX, and they'd love to take on gankers just for the heck of it. I should note that the Cyrodiil quests don't take that long to complete anyways (which is why it's not a full-featured PVE zone), so getting another to help you isn't that big of a burden.

wllstrt75b14_ESO

Flexar wrote: »

I'll admit that you do have a point, but when it comes to the point that you get ganked while trying to talk to a quest-giver and then having to waste ten or so minutes riding back to them only to get ganked again that feeling is undermined and the gameplay becomes tedious and unenjoyable. At the moment it's more of a certainty than a worry. The PvP Cyrodiils would still be there for anyone who wants that threat as they PvE.

dude this didnt need another thread but you do understand that cyrodill is a PvP environment right? that is what it was designed for. Why cant you understand that PvE in this area has risks you choose to take those risks or not its simple..life is full of choices..live with yours.

Umfafa_Umfafason

Did all my PvE, including fishing back when EP owned Wabbajack. Advised my guild members to do the same. Sorry you didn't figure that out when the prospect of merging campaigns came about.

Coren

I don't get all the naysayers, it's not like you're unable to do what you're already doing if a PvE Cyrodiil was included as you simply have to keep joining the PvP ones. Those who enjoy doing both PvP and PvE would assumably keep joining those while those who would rather avoid the PvP would simply join the PvE one (sure it may be incomplete as a PvE zone but nobody is asking for it to be turned into a full out PvE zone)

TehMagnus

No, unles they make the rest of the game open PVP world.

pppontus

Coren wrote: »

I don't get all the naysayers, it's not like you're unable to do what you're already doing if a PvE Cyrodiil was included as you simply have to keep joining the PvP ones. Those who enjoy doing both PvP and PvE would assumably keep joining those while those who would rather avoid the PvP would simply join the PvE one (sure it may be incomplete as a PvE zone but nobody is asking for it to be turned into a full out PvE zone)

I just don't understand what it is that is so problematic about being killed once or twice by actual players? I understand it's harder, not a PvE mob that you can faceroll, but I mean there are difficult encounters in ordinary PvE too (I think). The worst that can happen is you die and go back, it really isn't any worse than that. PvP:ers (at least me) want to feel like the area is alive, I rarely quest there but sometimes I do for some quick cash, and meeting other players while questing (even though it is rarely) are some of the most enjoyable moments I have had in the game.

Coren

I don't want to be killed by players while I'm talking with NPCs and handing in quests or getting quests, and that's what happens all the bloody time. I also have zero to little interest in actually fighting players while questing, because for me, that's the most boring thing there is in a game. The fun part for me is the questing, not the fighting. I simply prefer PvE over PvP.

I got 4 or 5 quests I've had for several weeks now that I can't complete because whenever I tried I got killed and had to treck the entire way back, wasting several hours that way (Not my kind of fun). So now I simply just stay away from Cyrodiil.

So you could say what you find some of the most enjoyable moments in the game is what I consider the absolute worst

Flexar

magnusnet wrote: »

No, unles they make the rest of the game open PVP world.

Well, the Justice System will be giving players the opportunity to kill any other players who have broken the law for a reward. If that doesn't count as open world PvP, I don't know what does.

Varicite

Coren wrote: »

I don't get all the naysayers, it's not like you're unable to do what you're already doing if a PvE Cyrodiil was included as you simply have to keep joining the PvP ones. Those who enjoy doing both PvP and PvE would assumably keep joining those while those who would rather avoid the PvP would simply join the PvE one (sure it may be incomplete as a PvE zone but nobody is asking for it to be turned into a full out PvE zone)

No, they're just asking for the zone to be handed to them w/out any of the dangers that Cyrodiil was designed to have.

Again, you don't hear PvPers asking for Craglorn or Trials to have all of the PvE mobs removed so that they can simply go around and collect everything and pick up the rewards w/out any of the intended difficulties.

That's not what Cyrodiil is about, and there's absolutely nothing in Cyrodiil that is essential to PvE players. It's just extra. It's the only zone in the game that PvP players have.

PvE players now want to have that too.

I say no. It goes against everything that Cyrodiil is supposed to stand for, and completely undermines the Alliance War altogether.

You don't need to PvP to do anything PvE-related. You could easily never set foot in Cyro and have absolutely no problem getting the best Trials gear, finishing all of the Craglorn content, finishing out all of the VR content, or making multiple builds for your character, etc. PvP players are more or less rail-roaded into PvE content already in order to progress to max levels, as well as if they want a shot at any of the best gear.

It's not enough that PvE players already have access to pretty much everything else there is this game has to offer, now they want Cyrodiil's spoils too? No, be happy w/ what you've got, and let PvP players have something that's theirs.

You don't want to join the War? Stay out of Cyrodiil, there's nothing you need in there. You want the skyshards, achievements, quests, etc that are associated w/ the wartorn Imperial lands?

Well, strap up your boots and be prepared. It's war. People aren't going to just let you have the spoils for free.

Nox_Aeterna

Personally i found that it wasnt hard to get all the achivs on the cyro AD dominated after the reduction on the number of cyros.

Barely ever found any enemy player and even when i did it was simple to ask in the map for help to have them removed from my path.

Granted very few times i got ganked , but almost never happened.

With that said , sure i would support a PvE cyro for those that really want to avoid PvP.

Pmarsico9

Cyrodiil's not that dangerous. 7 day campaign is essentially empty. Pick an empty campaign.

On Friday, September 12th from 6 EST until 1AM on 9/13, I essentially ran across the entire map, getting my explorer achievement and didn't see a single other player in the 7 day campaign.

Not one. Not only was it not PVP, it was essentially the entire map to me. There may have been 2 or 3 other people in there that I was trading stupid jokes with in zone chat.

After you hit the "L" key there's little graphs that shows you the population of each campaign. The ones with 0 or 1 bars on as many factions as possible are the best to use to avoid PVP.

Kelsarath

I have to admit that at first blush I'd almost agree with a PvE Cyrodiil; in fact I waited to post any thoughts about it at all until after I'd completed most of what I wanted to do in PvE.
That said, I really think that a PvE Cyrodiil is counter-productive to the rest of the game.
First I should point out; I'm not hardcore anything. Well, maybe a hardcore solo'er. In almost every MMO I've played over the course of the last ten years I tend to do a ton of PvE content and then move on to PvP after I've gotten to the point where I'm out of options for my own play style.
That said; I *love* stories and as most of the audience is no doubt aware, some of the best and brightest story-tellers in the world today are gravitating towards games because of their added ability to be interactive with the audience. Obviously some games don't have much of a story and I think that there's a great market for this. Lots of people love grinding, they live, eat and breathe for clean efficient kills and dragging massive groups of NPC's into their own corner of the world and destroying them over and over and over... and over. Now this isn't me but I can totally respect what they do and admire their ability to deal with what I'd consider a tedious task.
I personally want to see story. Even bad stories. Short stories, strange stories, stories on just about anything. It's clear that the writers for this game had a lot of great source material and it's clearly shown throughout many points of the game. So, if you're into the story, I can relate.
As to the reasons I dislike a non-pvp Cyrodiil (WARNING - some of these views are just my own thoughts on ideas already submitted by others):

There's no need: This is the most basic way to put it and it's not intended for a confrontation. Here's what I mean; having Bethesda set aside time and resources for this means that they'll be spending that time and those resources on rehashing existing content, not putting it to new content with even more great stories/more gear/improvements on existing content that really needs fixing/or making a sexy dance. I realize that there is a desire for this but imo, there's no need, which brings me to my next point...

PvE in this PvP zone isn't that bad: Of course there will be those who disagree with such a generalized statement and again... it's not here to make an argument. Here's what I mean; There's not really anyway to camp your kill. This is a pretty important feature. It can be irritating as hell to have to respawn a thousand miles away and then run all the way back to the village you were just at but then again, if I just got slaughtered in Bruma less than five minutes ago and it was overwhelmingly clear that the player who just put a hurt on me is so much better that I don't stand a real chance at winning... why would I run back there? Just head over to a different town for a bit and go back later. The story isn't going to change just because you do it an hour from now, tomorrow or next year.
In regards to this, I can say that I'm speaking from experience here. I didn't try any PvP whatsoever until I had my first Vet up to rank 12. I looked for a map that seemed to primarily controlled by my faction and headed in. In that time I got exactly what I went for, which was my Tamriel Hero title and only got forced into fighting about four times, I personally (again, not a hardcore pvp'er) died one of those times even with a limited knowledge of how PvP works in this game or the abilities of other classes. I'd say I'm about average as far as ability so I'd say the vast majority of people *could* be able to do the same.

Every Rose Has It's Small, Short, Unrelated Thorn: In case you haven't guessed by now... this is obviously just one dudes opinion and isn't submitted for the purposes of later throwing gasoline on me and flaming away. So, there will be those who disagree, those who don't know and want to see for themselves and those who think I drink too much to be trusted with this opinion.
The stories here aren't nearly as good as the rest of the game.
I like them, I read them... several times in most cases, and will read them again. I'd even go so far as to say they were enjoyable enough. Much like the rest of what I've written, this is just a blanket statement to outline what I see as the principle reason. However, I'd also say that the stories found in Cyrodiil are not quite as good as they are in the rest of the game. In fact I'd say that overwhelmingly they're all there to illustrate a single point, which brings me to my final point...

Superman or Clark Kent, It's Still the Same Underwear: Here's what, to me, works about PvP in Cyrodiil. Whether you're a Hardcore PvP'er, A MinMax Master of Dungeons everywhere, The Quest-O-Matic Encyclopedia for Lore or The RP'er who's reading in Iron Underpants, one thing is true (imo, not looking for a fight, put down your keyboard tough guy).
War Is Hell, even when rendered in pixels.
Whether it's invading Daedra in Bruma or Fleeing Refugees in Vlastarus, all of the villages/towns and the people in between are dramatically affected by the constant conflict in Cyrodiil. From North to South, no one is getting away from what would have to be the most vicious combat in the world.
I can't speak for everyone but please understand this. I had my first character level cap'd prior to the nerf in Vet zones and I have an abundance of Soul Shards. Not because I'm so stinking amazing that even my mother is awed by my playing ability when it's time for dinner; it's just not insanely difficult. And I'm glad for it. But consider for a moment that Cyrodiil is a land of constant conflict, where the impression any story-teller would want to make is... no one is safe. Not even you. The game isn't going to be able to make this impression without making the game truly difficult for even the most gifted players, so why not make that statement with other players? I think that PvP is not only suited for a place like Cyrodiil, it's inherently valuable to maintain the integrity and feel of the story.

Normally I'd cut to the point a lot more quickly... ah, who am I kidding. No I wouldn't. But, in this matter I really wanted to make my own view clear on why, as a [mostly] PvE'er I still think that PvP is important in Cyrodiil.
I'd be impressed if anyone read all of this, so in closing let me just say:
If you're pro-PvE Cyrodiil; good luck! It's not something I'd like to see but it's not going to ruin my day. I'll just stick to the PvP version.
If you're pro-PvP Cyrodiil; good luck! Me too.
I don't/didn't always agree with some of the development choices ZoS has made in regards to the game but I agree here and I like this zone the way it is most of the time (I'd avoid this commentary while I'm running back from getting killed).
Truly, whatever your stance is, I hope that you enjoy playing this game as much as I do and I hope to see ya in Cyrodiil!

P.S.
I may be maintaining a place in Hell next to gold farmers but... every single time I've tried to let someone be while they're PvE'ing during questing/delves/dolmen... they've turned around and tried to shred me. I don't hit peeps while they're talking to a quest-giver but once they're done we find out who's going to be questing there longer. I'd rather not and I normally feel slightly guilty since I know I'd rather just be left alone but, so far, leaving others alone has only led to them being the one to hit first.

Srugzal

Oh God, not this again. FFS.